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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

TamTam Rapley

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Everything posted by TamTam Rapley

  1. Well the "good guys" still won. I'm still unconvinced that the Empire was evil. But yeah on the InheritanceForums boards, the rage from fans regarding the ending is already 50 pages long. The Roran scenes will make you want to gouge your eyes out, I advise on skipping or skimming through them.
  2. The Battle of Endor errr... Battle of Uru Baen copied Star Wars (again) when Roran shouted "It's a trap." Granted I still enjoyed the novel, with the exception of the ending and the Roran scenes. I read this series hoping for a happy ending which surprisingly didn't happen, if I want my dark/gritty epic fantasy fix I'll re-read ASoIaF.
  3. Yeah, I thought of Perrin when I read about Roran's justifications for using a hammer. Too bad Roran is a terrible deus ex machina of a character. The biggest similarity I noticed was Glaedr's instruction of sword-fighting to Eragon. He basically told Eragon to achieve the "oneness" and gave the exact same description of the void and the flame. Moreover, Eragon "sheathed the sword" in his fight with Murtagh.
  4. Cadsuane and Egwene. I sure hope BS doesn't make Egwene the twenty year old come out ahead of one of the oldest and revered Aes Sedai. If Moraine doesn't suck up to Egwne either and chooses Rand over the Amyrlin, I will be one happy reader. It would be a nice parallel, where both women realize that what personally identifies them Aes Sedai (their motivation to see the Dragon through the last battle) is their reason for turning their backs on the Amrylin and Tower.
  5. I have no problem with Zen Rand. He's finally achieved reintegration with Lews Therin. He's still Rand al'Thor but, an improved version supplemented by 400 years of knowledge. Rand finally realizes that it isn't his duty to die at the Last Battle, but rather it is an opportunity and second chance to fix the wrongs he made as Lews Therin 3000 years ago. Plus, "You may call me Rand Sedai" is without a doubt one of the greatest one-liners in WoT history.
  6. Egwene's own take on the situation: "Obliquely, she realized what she is doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve mankind in the last battle." Those that are currently under Rand's command she hopes to have under her own command by the end of the meeting at Merrilor. She doesn't want to say this so baldly of course since it conflicts with her image of herself, so she is only obliquely aware of it. Rand is more than obliquely aware of Egwene's personality and ambitions and correctly deduced that such an attempt, a usurpation as I called it, would take place. So he decided to deny her the opportunity to chose the time and place of battle, like any good general should. He outmaneuvered her. We know what Egwene wants to gain at Merrilor: the Seals unbroken and control over the Light's forces. Now the question is, what does Rand hope to gain from their confrontation. Riiight... and where in that does she say she plans to get rid of Rand and command the armies against the DO herself? It doesn't say, "they would serve the white tower in the last battle". Seems a lot of people always try to make every political move as some sinister plot to rule the world or something. While I haven't seen any "Egwene thinks she's empress of the world" quotes recently, things like this seem to amount to the same thing. If any ruler has even the slightest self-interest in anything someone else does, they are something akin to a darkfriend. Even if they truly believe that it would be better for everyone, even if we know it truly would be better for everyone, and even if the target party AGREES willingly, none of that matters because it is apparently disgusting to even think about tugging someone towards your own way of thinking, for any purpose. It just seems so naive. I mean Rand has been pulling people all over the place the whole books. But it's ok because his purpose is mandated by prophecy right? Everyone else who even thinks of doing it, even for the greater good, even if they're right, is as good as shadowspawn. Egwene will choose the Tower over Rand everytime, even when Rand is right. She even stated that she had to "confront him infront of the Tower." Not compromise or plan, but confront. This doesn't benefit Randland in anyway but it rather solidifies her position as a "hard" Amrylin. And before you claim that Egwene isn't trying to usurp control over the forces of the light. I'll leave you with this quote "Is that all there is for me?" she demanded. "To abandon him again and again. To betray him, fail him, again and again? Is that what there is for me?" I firmly believe that Egwene is Latra Posae reborn, but this time she won't achieve her Fateful Concord.
  7. Not sure why you would think the False Dragons were TV puppets? Especially someone like Guaire who actually laid siege to Tar Valon! I wasn't really using it as evidence, Rand stated several times in EotW and TGH that he would wouldn't be a puppet like those guys to Moraine and then later Siuan. However, we know the reader know that they weren't puppets, or at least Guaire wasn't. The others as Siuan creates a rumor later about, could of been set up by the Red Ajah, so that they could capture them and gain prestige.
  8. I'll say Sammael, he nearly kills Rand at Carhienen, defends Illian fairly well from attacks, almost wins at Shadar Logoth, and scatters the Shaido Aiel across Randland resulting in widespread fear of the Dragon due to everyone believing that that all Aiel serve the Dragon.
  9. Indeed, she haven't really changed personality wise, which is why Rand has such an easy time manipulating her in the start of ToM. I think that's a little premature to say given that we have no idea what Rand's actual goals are. He seems to believe she's been pushed in the right direction, yes. And what "evidence"? There's no "evidence" in any of those things you mention. The so-called "evidence" is that the boys say they did/saw something and Egwene is supposed to accept that as "evidence"? And lets try to keep in mind that Rand refused to talk to Egwene about the seals. She offered, he refused. So of course she'll maintain her current position based on what she knows. And what she knows is this: "Break the seals? Break the seals? Why would anyone but a madman want to do that?" - Herid Fel, School of Cairhien Rand knows what Egwene is like, she has to have control of everything, but Rand will not become a Tar Varlon puppet like Raolin Darksbane, Yurian Stonebow, Guaire Amalasan, Davian, and Logain. He knows that Egwene usually opposes what he says or wants, therefore, why not use what she does so routinely to his own benefit? Rand does provide plenty of descriptive evidence that a country bumpkin couldn't of known had he not seen it with his own eyes. Lan confirms that the boys description matches a fade, Moraine confirms that only Mats, Perrins, and Rand's homes were attacked and that they were the targets. Rand provides knowledge to the group in the Camelyn Inn about Elayne, Gawyn, Galad, Morgase, and the palace that he could of only gained through actually meeting them and by being there. Even Moraine recognizes everything he states and takes it as truth. Yet, Egwene ignores this evidence. AND is witness testimony not considered evidence now? Half of convictions in the Canadian criminal justice system is a result of witness testimony. I would assume that around the same amount would apply to the U.S. as well.
  10. I just started a re-read of EotW, and I noticed several similarities with country Egwene and Amrylin Egwene. She has a precedence of dismissing anything Rand says as foolishness. For example, Rand, Perrin, and Mat see a fade and she evedrops on their conversation and she states that they shouldn't make up stories. Rand says that the Trollocs are chasing them and they must leave Edmond's Field, Egwene disagrees because she thinks they just want to leave on an adventure. Rand states that he met the Daughter-heir of Andor and she just laughs in his face. She never assumes that Rand may be telling the truth or may be right. Instead of listening to the evidence, she always outright dismisses it. Every interaction between the two feel quite similiar to Egwene's reaction to Rand in the WT.
  11. By killing the empress and the royal family, she opened up a power vacuum. If she managed to eliminate Tuon as well, she would of ruled the Seanchan through her proxy Suroth.
  12. Yeah the bonds aren't equal at all really. If Narishma held an Ashaman style bond on Myrelle he could use "the extra bit" as compulsion to force her to obey his commands with a thought instead of resorting to tactics like that. There are two types of Ashamen warder bonds, the ones they place on their wives. No conditions. And the ones they place on the Aes Sedai, the extra bit refers to obeying their orders (compulsion) because the Aes Sedai would either escape or kill them in their sleep. I'll paraphrase here, Logain says that he could do without the extra bit, but the Aes Sedai (Toveine I think) was clearly not a wife. Since she was not a wife, but rather a danger to society, she required an extra component to the bond. Right, the Ashaman style bond has the "extra bit" of compulsion. Thats what makes it diff then the one Myrelle holds. I've asked this before but I wonder who they experimented on to figure it these other things if not their wives? Is their other female captives at the BT? Although the AS have a lesser component that is looked down upon that takes channeling spirit, and would most likely not work on a strong channeler like Narishma. Also Toveine was a danger to society? You mean to the Ashaman she was sent to kill? Yes Toveine is a danger, the letter from Elaida stated to kill all the Ashamen and hang everyone else. Everyone else in the Black Tower includes merchants, women, and children. Hence society. The options were either kill the Aes Sedai, or capture. Since it is improbable to constantly shield some 50 Aes Sedai, compelling them to not harm anybody or try to escape is the only option other than death. Unless you think they should of just been set free... Whereas, Narishma accepted a warder bond, I doubt he realized that he was gonna lose his free will in the process.
  13. For a dreamer who can glean the future from them I would think so yes. Possible futures, I suppose Gawyn is gonna die a young violent death while still living to old age right? In no way is her dreams absolute. And if you're going to consider her dreams to be evidence, then Avi's use of the ter'angreal to see the future is just as justifiable as evidence.
  14. Yeah the bonds aren't equal at all really. If Narishma held an Ashaman style bond on Myrelle he could use "the extra bit" as compulsion to force her to obey his commands with a thought instead of resorting to tactics like that. There are two types of Ashamen warder bonds, the ones they place on their wives. No conditions. And the ones they place on the Aes Sedai, the extra bit refers to obeying their orders (compulsion) because the Aes Sedai would either escape or kill them in their sleep. I'll paraphrase here, Logain says that he could do without the extra bit, but the Aes Sedai (Toveine I think) was clearly not a wife. Since she was not a wife, but rather a danger to society, she required an extra component to the bond.
  15. So rumors, Rand's reputation, and dreams are considered evidence why the Seals should not be broken? She hasn't even heard Rand's plan and reasoning yet (she doesn't know that he hasn't figured it out yet) and she's already dismissed what he wants to do as insane.
  16. And do the Ashaman have any say in whether or not they will become warders? I would think so yeah. Once everything settles down I could see it as a mutual agreement. I could even see the Black and White tower mending and becoming one. New schools opening training the men and women to channel together, using their weaves cohesively to make everything more power. Same as in the age of legends, only no Madness this time around. Would make the Seachan absolutely useless, even in battle. Asha'man are battle ready Aes Sedai, while in GS you saw how unbattle ready the Aes Sedai are. The Aes Sedai need the Asha'man, that is for certain. The Aes Sedai Warder bond is hardly equal. When Mirelle/Merelle (name?) bonded Narishma, she took away his Dragon pin because she stated to Cads that he had to learn to obey her commands and that they were the only thing that mattered.
  17. He has the greatest chemistry with Min. She loves him for who he his. I'm not saying the others don't but it just feels more natural from her. We know Rand and Avi get another session in though because she has quadruplets and she's not prego yet.
  18. But it is as many other have noted exactly what Rand wants her to do. He purposely refused to discuss the situation and antagonized her to get this reaction. Ta'veren influence was also likely at work. We just don't know why. The point of my quote is it shows very clearly what Egwene's motivations are. Misguided are not AS believe their role is to shepherd humanity into the Last Battle. It is not as you imply in the above post some mysterious AS goal. I very much agree with this. Egwene was played by Rand. His telling her that he planned to break the seals was done in the Hall of the Towers, in front of the Sitters. Egwene had no choice but to act strongly to this. Had Rand met her privately and discussed the matter with her, explaining his reasons behind it and given her the chance to assess whether he's mad or not, her actions might have been different. With the information Egwene has, Rand has become / is both mad and ruthless. Rand wants the armies of the Wetlands at FoM, Egwene is a tool of getting them there. Just because Rand expected Egwene to do this dosesn't absolve Egwene of criticism. He expected her to betray him, and she did. He just took advantage of this by having enough foresight to see what she would do.
  19. Actually he did, Rand, Dashiva and 3-4 other Asha'men created gateways for the Saldean horse and the Legion of the Dragon to invade Illian. The city was captured within minutes. Now if 5-6 males channelers, can do this. The Seanchan with 200+ damane could do it as well. The threat is very real.
  20. We have the vision Avi sees of the future as almost definitive proof that the Asha'men will remain independant of the Tower. She realizes that she must make Rand not bow to the Crystal Throne to change the future of the Aiel. The Black Tower really has nothing to do with changing the future, their mention was maninly to provide context on how effective the Seanchan were in conquering. Its the dealings with the Seanchan and the Aiel that matter. I along with the majority of others don't see that future coming to pass. To call it definitive proof is wrong, even possible evidence would be a stretch. It is folly to attempt to glean anything about the Ashaman mentioned only in passing from those visions. Far more useful to go with what the text has been setting up for many books. Of course that future won't happen. Because Avi will change it by affecting some variable regarding the Seanchan and Aiel. That doesn't mean that the other things still won't happen. Avi is still going to have 4 kids that will be able to channel from birth. Or will that not happen as well, because the viewing Min gives only states that something will be different with the children. Based on the future, I can also be certain that Caemlyn will not be sacked by Trollocs and that the Last Battle will be won. Or is that too much of a folly, and that I should only rely on the text? This matter of the future really revolves around Tuon. Jordan stated that he wanted to do outrigger novels involving Tuon and Mat, so we can reasonably sure that Tuon survives the Last Battle, whereas, the future claims that she had an early death.
  21. We have the vision Avi sees of the future as almost definitive proof that the Asha'men will remain independant of the Tower. She realizes that she must make Rand not bow to the Crystal Throne to change the future of the Aiel. The Black Tower really has nothing to do with changing the future, their mention was maninly to provide context on how effective the Seanchan were in conquering. Its the dealings with the Seanchan and the Aiel that matter.
  22. They amount to lies when you compare them together, however, she wrote them one at a time. This allows her to write whatever she wants to Darlin, only her letter to Gregorin would prohibit her from lying. The letter to Darlin is the variable that affects the Gregorin letter, not the other way around. What she wrote to Darlin about Illian being a buffer state is completely true, and withholding the information on travelling is deciet, not a lie. BUT since she asks Gregorin to send all his troops as well, Illian no longer becomes the powerful buffer state that she implicitly implies to Darlin that it is. This makes her previous words false, but they're are already on paper so she is able to get away with it. To all those people who find this appropriate behaviour as Egwene is a "politician." You're okay with politicians misleading and lying to you? To accept this as a fallacy with the political system is one thing but to not care about corruption and to agree with it another. Moreover, her intentions should not matter, not matter what the circumstances are. Yes, she rightfully agrees the Last Battle must be fought, but to use it justify her actions is unacceptable, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Following your personal beliefs does not make your actions proper conduct. For example, look at the Crusades. Does saying "God wills it!" everytime a Saracen was butchered at Acre make the conduct okay? Sure, they believed it was fine, that it would lead them to the kingdom of heaven, and that it was indeed God's will. This does not make their actions right, I don't claim to know God or even if God exists I doubt he/she would find this to be appropriate conduct in his/her name. The same applies to Egwene, every lies she makes may help her cause which she considers to be just. But how just is her cause and how many people is she willing to sacrifice to achieve it. The phrophecies name the Dragon the commander of the light, not the Amrylin Seat. The difference between Rand and Egwene is that when Rand does commit a wrong action, he knows that it is wrong. He accepts that he is indeed a monster but his actions are necessary. Egwene just considers her actions necessary without also accepting the fact that what she is doing is also wrong.
  23. Long time lurker, first time poster. I felt enraged after doing a re-read of ToM, particulary chapter 27, which led me to the creation of a Dragonmount account. I've never liked Egwene as a character, but I never really disliked her, until I read her blatant lies to the leaders of Tear and Illan, and her justifications. Here Darlin agrees to send a delegation to the FoM, but due to the close proximity of the Seanchan he is reluctant to send all his men. Andor is considered a cushion nation now? If anything, Andor is the most cushioned nation as Illian, Ghealdan, and Murandy hold the Seanchan at bay, Carhienen the Aiel at bay, and the Borderlands the Shadow at bay. Furthermore, how is this logical? The shadow is a greater threat to Tear when it is seperated by thousands of miles, wheareas the Seanchan are considered a lessar threat when they are only hundreds of miles away? Essentially, she wants Tear left defenceless, and an attempt to persuade Rand not to break the seals. This is the same fallacy the borderlanders engage in when they meet with Rand. How does bringing thousands of troops help your cause? When the Borderlanders did it, they basically opened up their nations to invasion. Moreover, she knows that she is putting Tear at risk by asking Darlin to bring all his men. Not only that, but she chooses not to inform him that the Seanchan have learnt travelling. The worst part is the claim that Illian is there as a buffer state for Tear, this may be true, but all legitimacy of that claim goes out the window when she later asks Illian to bring all their troops as well. Because not agreeing with Egwene means that you are intimidated or Ta'varened by Rand? Furthermore, Illian is the nation most at risk by the Seanchan, they are still fighting a war down there, yet Egwene wants Gregorin to send all his troops to the FoM as well? She is essentially submitting two nations to the Seanchan to achieve what she wants. AND she does not provide an entirety of details that would allow these two leaders to make an informed decision. She misleads Darlin on the strenght of the Illian buffer knowing that she would ask Illian to do the same, and she does not inform them of the Seanchan knowing travelling. Is this what this is really about? Tying more nations to the White Tower? To support the White Tower is to serve humankind? Egwene shows that she is willing to sacrifice individual nations to the Seanchan if it helps her achieve her goals. By telling these leaders to do something, but without providing full disclosure of details. She takes away the free will of these nations to effectively decide what is best for them.
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