Egwene versus Perrin.. who is better in the TAR/Wolf Dream?

[csarmi]

I would say Perrin for one reason. He can jump away to another point in the dream without Egwene knowing where he went. She cannot do this. This particular ability would allow him to control where the fight takes place. Control the battleground and you control the battle.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Amys could. Egwene should.

[Xcorpyo001]

I would say Perrin for one reason. He can jump away to another point in the dream without Egwene knowing where he went. She cannot do this. This particular ability would allow him to control where the fight takes place. Control the battleground and you control the battle.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Amys could. Egwene should.

 

 

Perrin could also ask some wolves for some help, and to fight Perrin+1000 TaR users will be a tad difficult.

I don't think Egwene can gather so many dreamers to even the odds.

[Jemlin]

The "different skills" point seems very important to me.

 

Like has been pointed out, Perrin's training has been very different from Eqwene.s His has been more combat, travel, and covert operations based. Hers has been manipulation, dream navigation, planning/will, and general knowledge. Less on combat. I think, like said above, it would depend on who initiated the fight.

 

Let's also remember that, although Perrin surprised Eqw. with his shrugging off of ropes and balefire, she learned very quickly and did the same thing in response to the black sister Katerine (and her wall of Air). She also beat a foresaken who had used TAR for over 200 years by sheer willpower. Perrin wasn't able to beat Slayer.

 

I kinda wish they would team up, personally. I think together, they could learn a lot and take out Slayer and anyother foe who dared set foot in the dreamworld.

[Hadilmir]

I kinda wish they would team up, personally. I think together, they could learn a lot and take out Slayer and anyother foe who dared set foot in the dreamworld.

Hmm... I could actually find myself pitying Slayer were this to occur.

 

...Wait, Hopper. Nevermind, no pity.

[cancan4ever]

i dont think egwene shrugged him off, she realized thought was quicker then channeling...its a matter of her adjusting herself to that tactic instead of the habit of channeling. if she can adjust herself to using thought before channeling id say she has the advantage. quite honestly i think nyneave could be totally lanfear/moggy badass in the world of dreams. as good or better then both...i think her will is stronger the egwenes...but she cant enter at will. i see elayne making tons of dream ter angreal and many sisters being trained in the future much like in the AoL...if/...( and i dont mean this as a bash)....if egwene can get passed her own pride and allow the others to be trained as well or better then she was....which may very well be part of her plan in cross training with wise ones i cant remember if she mentioned dreaming in the agreement. its almost a shame she didnt take the tower sooner to have a "dream army" ready for the last battle... i feel like im babbling now lol

[SylvanFox]

Egwene puts her full willpower into everything she does. To get Perrin fired up, you have to put Faile in danger, and nobody wants to do that again.

[Durinax]

Egwene puts her full willpower into everything she does. To get Perrin fired up, you have to put Faile in danger, and nobody wants to do that again.

well we dont truly know the effects of hoppers death yet. Perrin may be fully dedicated to anything to do with the tar so he definately has a higher motivation to excell than egwene in my books

[Kahsm]

Egwene puts her full willpower into everything she does. To get Perrin fired up, you have to put Faile in danger, and nobody wants to do that again.

well we dont truly know the effects of hoppers death yet. Perrin may be fully dedicated to anything to do with the tar so he definately has a higher motivation to excell than egwene in my books

 

Except "to excel" has been Egwene's near-exclusive motivation for everything she has done since the very beginning of the series. So I completely disagree with you.

[Durinax]

Egwene puts her full willpower into everything she does. To get Perrin fired up, you have to put Faile in danger, and nobody wants to do that again.

well we dont truly know the effects of hoppers death yet. Perrin may be fully dedicated to anything to do with the tar so he definately has a higher motivation to excell than egwene in my books

 

Except "to excel" has been Egwene's near-exclusive motivation for everything she has done since the very beginning of the series. So I completely disagree with you.

yes, but having a sudden surge of motivation can make a person go further, and having a purpose for that motivation makes it more influencial

[Xcorpyo001]

Egwene puts her full willpower into everything she does. To get Perrin fired up, you have to put Faile in danger, and nobody wants to do that again.

well we dont truly know the effects of hoppers death yet. Perrin may be fully dedicated to anything to do with the tar so he definately has a higher motivation to excell than egwene in my books

 

Except "to excel" has been Egwene's near-exclusive motivation for everything she has done since the very beginning of the series. So I completely disagree with you.

 

 

The billions wolves that live in Tar(and can use it) will take Perrin's side in a fight against anyone who will try to hurt him(even when he's sleeping). They may have something to say about her "excelling".

The wolves give him an advantage against any AS dreamer or WO dreamwalker. I'll not even mention those amateurs using rings, like the Windfinders(oops, guess I did mentioned them after all)

[Dreggs Morlock]

Personally, I think Egwene has the skills, but has not used them due to thinking channeling was a superior power, even in TAR. Now that she has seen Perrin unbelieve even balefire, she has had a Epiphany. Suddenly, all that work she has done in TAR means a whole lot more than it did previously.

 

I'm betting that the NEXT time Egwene needs to do battle in TAR, she will approach it very differently.

[David Selig]

The billions wolves that live in Tar(and can use it) will take Perrin's side in a fight against anyone who will try to hurt him(even when he's sleeping). They may have something to say about her "excelling".

The wolves give him an advantage against any AS dreamer or WO dreamwalker. I'll not even mention those amateurs using rings, like the Windfinders(oops, guess I did mentioned them after all)

Yeah, but using the help of the wolves would be cheating. One on one would be the real test who's better.

 

Without ta'veren luck factored in, I'd pick Egwene.

[Xcorpyo001]

The billions wolves that live in Tar(and can use it) will take Perrin's side in a fight against anyone who will try to hurt him(even when he's sleeping). They may have something to say about her "excelling".

The wolves give him an advantage against any AS dreamer or WO dreamwalker. I'll not even mention those amateurs using rings, like the Windfinders(oops, guess I did mentioned them after all)

Yeah, but using the help of the wolves would be cheating. One on one would be the real test who's better.

 

Without ta'veren luck factored in, I'd pick Egwene.

 

 

 

But the 'wolfbrother' is part of his gift. Why should he not use everything at his disposal? If it's in TaR and he can use it, then it's fair game.

Totally forgot about his taveren nature, lol.

[Dreggs Morlock]

If we are talking a battle to the death, just imagine Egwene flinging balefire, fire nets and such WHILE changing TAR to prevent the wolves and Perrin from avoiding her death-dealing. It would be one awesome battle.

[Xcorpyo001]

If we are talking a battle to the death, just imagine Egwene flinging balefire, fire nets and such WHILE changing TAR to prevent the wolves and Perrin from avoiding her death-dealing. It would be one awesome battle.

 

 

And Perrin is playing stones with Topper's shadow during all of this?

Perrin can also alter TaR.

Each wolf can expertly alter TaR, most of them better than Perrin.

Don't forget that the wolves have some sort of genetic memory. Even the living ones remember a time when they could hunt with men, long before OP even existed.

And many dreamers said on more than one occasion that there were wolves watching them. So a wolf can remember everything the humans discovered about TaR, without even mentioning all the things they know themselves. Perrin can learn everything Egwene can, but Egwene can't use the knowledge/help wolves can add to the mix.

I think the Slayer guy made you believe wolves are weak, but they can hold their own, and I don't know how many simultaneous attacks can she deflect.

Perrin also knows about dreamspikes, so he can trap her for as long as he likes in a zone of his choosing, if he gets the second one.

[Turin Turambar]

I would say Perrin for one reason. He can jump away to another point in the dream without Egwene knowing where he went. She cannot do this. This particular ability would allow him to control where the fight takes place. Control the battleground and you control the battle.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Amys could. Egwene should.

Should, maybe. She has not demonstrated the ability yet so we can not be certain she can.

 

In fact I would doubt she is even aware of the possibility. In the TaR battle against the BA, She and Nyn employ the tactic of jumping to one point attacking and then jumping to a point they consider "safe". If she thought that following by scent or another technique were possible, she would be beyond foolish to consider the second location safe.

[Himiko]

If we are talking a battle to the death, just imagine Egwene flinging balefire, fire nets and such WHILE changing TAR to prevent the wolves and Perrin from avoiding her death-dealing. It would be one awesome battle.

 

But Perrin's already shown that he can and will just shrug off weaves- even balefire. If Egwene is wasting her concentration chucking weaves, won't she kind of be wasting her time using a weapon that has already proven totally ineffective. Her altering TAR to her advantage- that WOULD be a clever move. Were it another enemy, I suspect Egwene would try to channel against them, out of habit, but I doubt she would with Perrin.

[A2597]

Different strengths, and different thought processes in TAR.

 

Egwene can fix herself a nice table with various teas and biscuts. Frankly, I think Perrin would have trouble doing the same. So in general "use" of TAR, Egwene wins.

 

For instinct / strength of will? Perrin flat out. For Combat, I'm going to say he's on top of everyone on the side of light, with Isam being on the top for the dark side. Those two would fight circles around anyone else in TAR.

 

To sum up:

Egwene is to Lanfear as Perrin is to Isam.

Egwene and Lanfear like to THINK of themselves as masters of TAR, but in a fight they would be so far behind Isam and Perrin that it isn't even funny. I think it comes from a dependance on channeling. The OP is a weakness in TAR, if your opponent is of the mindset that it can't hurt them.

[omaleyb]

Much is being made about Perrin being instictual and Egwene being a planner. Remember Perrin is a planner too. He likes to think things over slowly and does not like to act in haste. Point being, they are both warriors/planners/leaders. Also, I think differentiating between the strength of will of any of the main characters would be difficult. Perrin has one thing Egwene doesn't and that is his innate tie to the wolf dream by being a wolfbrother. Remember Noam/Boundless is there just like all wolves. The typical soul is not tied to TAR, just the heroes to be spun out again and again, but all wolves are tied to the wolf dream. Yes, Egwene is a natural dreamer, but I think that someone with equal strength of will and training with a dream ter'angrel could learn to be a master of TAR. Perrin is a wolfbrother and thus his soul is tied to the wolf dream naturally. That is why, all things being equal, Perrin has the advantage.

[Xcorpyo001]

Much is being made about Perrin being instictual and Egwene being a planner. Remember Perrin is a planner too. He likes to think things over slowly and does not like to act in haste. Point being, they are both warriors/planners/leaders. Also, I think differentiating between the strength of will of any of the main characters would be difficult. Perrin has one thing Egwene doesn't and that is his innate tie to the wolf dream by being a wolfbrother. Remember Noam/Boundless is there just like all wolves. The typical soul is not tied to TAR, just the heroes to be spun out again and again, but all wolves are tied to the wolf dream. Yes, Egwene is a natural dreamer, but I think that someone with equal strength of will and training with a dream ter'angrel could learn to be a master of TAR. Perrin is a wolfbrother and thus his soul is tied to the wolf dream naturally. That is why, all things being equal, Perrin has the advantage.

 

 

 

Both are viewed as planers.

For Perrin, we see what his plans can do as Malden and Saving Galad and his merry children.

 

Egwene's plans on the other hand...

The master plan about capturing Mesanna.

-she never thought that someone can harm her in her room

-she never expected Mesanna to just leave if things got rough.

Her plan succeeded because:

-Gawin disobeyed her direct order and entered her rooms

-Perrin suddenly decided to bring a dreampike to Tar Valon and keep it there long enough so Egwene can escape(again) and capture Mesanna instead. Why Tal Valon of all places? He didn't even knew the place good enough to use it to create an advantage for him. And he knew the dreamspike was messing with waves of OP. Why bring in a place filled with OP users that would have been unable to use Travelling?

 

They both may be planers, but Perrin is actually good at it. And this is not Egwene hate, I'm just saying she doesn't cover all her bases all the times, and some of her plans succeed by pure luck.

 

 

Since the dreamspike is somehow connected with this TaR thread, I want to ask something(just thought about the timing of the visit to Tar Valon)

What if he brought it there with minutes before the Seachan attack?

Would the sleeping AS be able to wake up and put up a fight?

Since the dreamspike can act in the real world and the TaR, can it also have some effect in normal dreams?

It will be an awesome weapon if the user can just bring it via TaR in the middle of an enemy camp when most are sleeping, and only the people that are awake can put out a fight? But I hope that's not the case, it will make it a very overpowered item.

[Suttree]

They both may be planers, but Perrin is actually good at it. And this is not Egwene hate, I'm just saying she doesn't cover all her bases all the times, and some of her plans succeed by pure luck.

 

Luck like an Aiel warrior killing Aram at just the right second to save Perrin's life? Come now Taveren have much more luck than Eggy could ever dream off.

 

They are both good planers, most of her success has come from a political perspective but it counts just the same...

[David Selig]

It didn't even occurred to Perrin to go ask Rand for troops to destroy the Shaido instead of making deals with the Seanchan. That was beyond stupid. His plan for Malden required a huge amount of luck - the WO not noticing early on they've been forkooted. If they had noticed, 400 Wise Ones might've well slaughtered his forces who had way less channellers. Giving the Seanchan hundreds of new damane was far from smart too, given that he expected to have to fught against them in the future.

[Clayden69]

It didn't even occurred to Perrin to go ask Rand for troops to destroy the Shaido instead of making deals with the Seanchan. That was beyond stupid. His plan for Malden required a huge amount of luck - the WO not noticing early on they've been forkooted. If they had noticed, 400 Wise Ones might've well slaughtered his forces who had way less channellers. Giving the Seanchan hundreds of new damane was far from smart too, given that he expected to have to fught against them in the future.

 

While I agree 100% that it was incredibly stupid not to go to Rand for help, IIRC there is a moment in a Perrin PoV where he considers doing so but is afraid Rand will reject his pleas. I'm not even close to 100% sure about that but I think I rmemebr reeading something along those lines. Still doesn't ecuse the fact he didn't ask for help. But then again Perrin isn't the only 1 to not ask someone else for help.

[Swithin]

I really think it comes down to the following question (which Aiel Blademaster touched on): who is more 'potent' in TAR, wolves/wolfbrothers or Dreamers? Interestingly enough, if we look at how these two different groups behave in TAR, and the different abilities to which they have access, we come back to the comment comparing Egwene and Perrin.

 

The wolves in TAR do "wolfy" things with dream-like efficiency. Sniff the wind, teleport to the target. Rush through a forest tangle in a blur, never snagging a paw. Take down prey by coordinating strikes from multiple angles - including the vertical, in TAR. These are skills focused around the hunt, the wolven raison-d'etre. Abilities which affect others do have a trace flavor of "dominance", but it's not a contest-of-wills type relationship between the wolf and his or her prey. The hunter controls the chase, it's a simple fact to the wolf mindset. The prey is not allowed to set the rules.

 

Dreamers, on the other hand, show superhuman ability in social and tool-use-y tasks. Fair enough: wolves are more than wolf, humans become more than human. It seems to me this is expressed in three ways. The first is issues of identity: Dreamers are in control of themselves, can alter themselves and assert themselves, but they can also impose identity on others in several ways, from the simple (haha, you're dressed like a child now,) to the complex (you are a child in my mind's eye, so now you have the mind of a child.) The second is problem-solving (the need trick sums this up perfectly.) And the third, and possibly most human trait, is control of the environment. We've seen the Dreamers and the heroine trio do this in small ways (creating objects, a'dam, etc.,) but apparently space in TAR is hard to alter - however, the Forsaken can do this (note the added Dragon throne in Caemlyn meant to convince Elayne had plans on Andor.)

 

So which is more powerful? I'd call this moot. It's a Dream World. Wolves approach the wolf archetype ('essence of wolf') and the humans do the same. If a wolf were interested in doing human-y things, he or she probably could - and vice versa.

 

Let's assume that the post-incarnation wolves who live in the dream are at the peak of their ability, and Dreamers are near the peak of human ability (there are things they don't do that the Forsaken do, but we don't know if they're actually ignorant of these skills or simply choose not to use them, and we don't see enough of the Forsaken being effective in TAR to use them as an upper limit.) How close are Egwene and Perrin to the top tiers of TAR?

 

Well, Egwene has got no wolf on, so that's simple. As far as Dreamer-style skills, she's actually pretty good already, and one assumes she'll keep getting better (right, Mesaana? Care for round two?) Perrin got his wolf game together pretty well, and although inexperienced he's definitely keeping up with Hopper and the other packs. He's also gotten pretty good with the human ways of TAR (picked up in large part from fighting Slayer) - but he's still nowhere near Egwene's level. Although he had considered TAR as a good place to gather intel before ToM (despite the awesome retcon line that almost makes up for him not trying the trick with Malden,) he still hasn't learned to "use" TAR in the way that comes naturally to Egwene.

 

That said, Perrin being ta'veren and Egwene having the conviction of being Amyrlin and representing the tradition of the White Tower are pretty much equivalent in my mind for TAR purposes. Perrin's got some really deep skills in wolfy things that Egwene just doesn't have, but her personality lets her use TAR in a lot of ways that Perrin hasn't and probably wouldn't. Also, while thought is faster than channeling in TAR, Egwene's strength and skill in the Power is a huge asset. To me, they're sort of equally awesome at different things, and what differentiates them seems to be exactly what Brandon said it is.

 

That said, while I appreciate Perrin's last-minute upgrade (it gives us some of the most exciting action sequences in WoT, IMHO,) I still consider his power in TAR an adjunct of his wolf skills. Egwene is the Dreamer of the main cast, and while I think it's cool that she gives Perrin props for his skill, her skills go beyond fighting in TAR so I give her the edge. It's great that they get something new to share so late in the game, though. :)

 

[edit: This makes me wonder again about Slayer, and whether there is consensus on whether Isam or Luc was a wolf-brother pre-merge. He's got a darkhound-y hatred of wolves, and he certainly fights like a wolf in TAR, not to mention is apparently the only thing in TAR that they fear - anyone?]

[A2597]

It didn't even occurred to Perrin to go ask Rand for troops to destroy the Shaido instead of making deals with the Seanchan. That was beyond stupid. His plan for Malden required a huge amount of luck - the WO not noticing early on they've been forkooted. If they had noticed, 400 Wise Ones might've well slaughtered his forces who had way less channellers. Giving the Seanchan hundreds of new damane was far from smart too, given that he expected to have to fught against them in the future.

 

Didn't Rand basically threaten to Kill Perrin if he came back without Masthema?