Egwene/the Aes Sedai

[MasterAblar]

In Nyn's test, Egwene might have taken it a step far for the scenario she created. She seemed to realize this as she apologized to Nyneave afterwords. However, Egwene can not be held responsible for the other Aes Sedai's reasons. She might have pushed the envelope, but they took it above and beyond where she intended. These women were obviously jealous of Nyn's power, wilder standing, and other such and intended to make an example of her. We can't lay the entire dynamics of the situation on Eqwene's shoulders, OR assume this will be the future trend of tests.

 

 

Oh, no, don't get me wrong, I quite agree that its foolish to lay the whole of the blame for Nynaeve's testing on Egwene's shoulders- after all, she was not the only one making the visions. Nor would I assign her blame equal to theirs for the testing- I think it was foolish of her to take part, and I think her partaking of what she knew, or at least suspected to be, a brutal test with just as much brutality does not reflect well on her, HOWEVER, her own reasons for doing so seem to have been political, if perhaps misguided, whereas with many of the others, it seems mostly to have been down to spite- presumably because Nynaeve, being a wilder and "not a proper AS" has made miraculous discoveries, surpassed all of them in power, and will stand above them when she is raised.

 

In an ideal situation, Egwene would have not taken part in the actual testing, even if she was present. In another ideal situation, she would have realised the test was brutal, made her own input more appropriate and reprimanded the AS afterwards. At the very least, having decided to take part, and that she wouldn't risk her position even remotely by being fair in the testing, she SHOULD have reprimanded the AS who took part, and had them apologise to Nynaeve (personally I prefer some "penance" as their option, but assuming she doesn't want to go the public humiliation route). And she didn't- the only one who reprimanded them was Saerin. I mean, OK, Saerin's awesome, but that doesn't mean Egwene shouldn't have to step up to the plate, too :P

 

IMO, this wasn't the worst thing Egwene's ever done, and excuses can be made- its in no way the same as when she tries to cover her arse by scaring Nynaeve and then is giggly about her power trip afterwards in TFoH- but I do think it was badly handled on her part. I doubt that every testing will be like this, and I in no way believe that Egwene INTENDS to make the practice in any way similar to this- she needs AS too badly for that- but I do wonder if her implicit consent to Nynaeve's treatment will mean that when it comes time for Elayne to be tested (or any Accepted that has gotten "above their place", or a wilder, or someone who has made more discoveries than full sisters, or anyone who is close to Egwene) then any AS feeling spiteful (using the example of Elayne because she and Nynaeve are in very similar situations re. the Aes Sedai) will do the same as they did to Nynaeve, on the basis that the Amyrlin never said anything against it.

 

Afaik Egwene cannot see into the future and cannot decide not to take part in something she doesn't know will get so out of control. And once started she's not going to screw Nyn by going easy and possibly hurting Nyn with rumors of "She only got the shawl because the amyrlin went easy on her" And I think you're assuming she was going beyond what she thought Nyn could handle.

 

Please give me the quote where Nynaeve thinks Egwene was wrong, or where she tells Egwene she's a bad friend, or is angry at her.

 

How Nyneave feels doesn't determine whether Egwene and her actions were right or wrong. She may be fine with it, but the readers could be appalled, the same way that, while damane are fine with their situation, and probably think the suldam are right when they punish them, the readers should probably be disgusted by what is done to the damane. Nyneave could think that Egwene and the Aes Sedai should have been much harsher on her, but it wouldn't mean they would be right to be harsher. A persons feelings are completely subjetctive and do not determine right or wrong.

[ironisles]

If I may also add..this isn't a real-life situation. What I mean is, the author favors Egwene obviously- shes a main character (well so's Nyn but I digress). In real life chances are Nyn would have been furious once she found out Eg went totally overboard with her test. In the book, Eg could dance on Nyn's back and Nyn would be totally fine with with that probably. Even if Nyn undestood Eg's reasoning, I doubt she would have thoroughly approved of it. Especially since Eg won't be taking the test at all. Kinda hypocritical ain't it?

[Kahsm]

In Nyn's test, Egwene might have taken it a step far for the scenario she created. She seemed to realize this as she apologized to Nyneave afterwords. However, Egwene can not be held responsible for the other Aes Sedai's reasons. She might have pushed the envelope, but they took it above and beyond where she intended. These women were obviously jealous of Nyn's power, wilder standing, and other such and intended to make an example of her. We can't lay the entire dynamics of the situation on Eqwene's shoulders, OR assume this will be the future trend of tests.

 

 

Oh, no, don't get me wrong, I quite agree that its foolish to lay the whole of the blame for Nynaeve's testing on Egwene's shoulders- after all, she was not the only one making the visions. Nor would I assign her blame equal to theirs for the testing- I think it was foolish of her to take part, and I think her partaking of what she knew, or at least suspected to be, a brutal test with just as much brutality does not reflect well on her, HOWEVER, her own reasons for doing so seem to have been political, if perhaps misguided, whereas with many of the others, it seems mostly to have been down to spite- presumably because Nynaeve, being a wilder and "not a proper AS" has made miraculous discoveries, surpassed all of them in power, and will stand above them when she is raised.

 

In an ideal situation, Egwene would have not taken part in the actual testing, even if she was present. In another ideal situation, she would have realised the test was brutal, made her own input more appropriate and reprimanded the AS afterwards. At the very least, having decided to take part, and that she wouldn't risk her position even remotely by being fair in the testing, she SHOULD have reprimanded the AS who took part, and had them apologise to Nynaeve (personally I prefer some "penance" as their option, but assuming she doesn't want to go the public humiliation route). And she didn't- the only one who reprimanded them was Saerin. I mean, OK, Saerin's awesome, but that doesn't mean Egwene shouldn't have to step up to the plate, too :P

 

IMO, this wasn't the worst thing Egwene's ever done, and excuses can be made- its in no way the same as when she tries to cover her arse by scaring Nynaeve and then is giggly about her power trip afterwards in TFoH- but I do think it was badly handled on her part. I doubt that every testing will be like this, and I in no way believe that Egwene INTENDS to make the practice in any way similar to this- she needs AS too badly for that- but I do wonder if her implicit consent to Nynaeve's treatment will mean that when it comes time for Elayne to be tested (or any Accepted that has gotten "above their place", or a wilder, or someone who has made more discoveries than full sisters, or anyone who is close to Egwene) then any AS feeling spiteful (using the example of Elayne because she and Nynaeve are in very similar situations re. the Aes Sedai) will do the same as they did to Nynaeve, on the basis that the Amyrlin never said anything against it.

 

Afaik Egwene cannot see into the future and cannot decide not to take part in something she doesn't know will get so out of control. And once started she's not going to screw Nyn by going easy and possibly hurting Nyn with rumors of "She only got the shawl because the amyrlin went easy on her" And I think you're assuming she was going beyond what she thought Nyn could handle.

 

Please give me the quote where Nynaeve thinks Egwene was wrong, or where she tells Egwene she's a bad friend, or is angry at her.

 

How Nyneave feels doesn't determine whether Egwene and her actions were right or wrong. She may be fine with it, but the readers could be appalled, the same way that, while damane are fine with their situation, and probably think the suldam are right when they punish them, the readers should probably be disgusted by what is done to the damane. Nyneave could think that Egwene and the Aes Sedai should have been much harsher on her, but it wouldn't they would be right to be harsher. A persons feelings are completely subjetctive and do not determine right or wrong.

 

So now Egwene has Nynaeve leashed so strongly through some trick of her will that Nyn is incapable of expressing how she 'should' be feeling? Has Egwene brow beat Nynaeve and broken her will now?

 

You honestly think that's a reasonable analogy?

[MasterAblar]

In Nyn's test, Egwene might have taken it a step far for the scenario she created. She seemed to realize this as she apologized to Nyneave afterwords. However, Egwene can not be held responsible for the other Aes Sedai's reasons. She might have pushed the envelope, but they took it above and beyond where she intended. These women were obviously jealous of Nyn's power, wilder standing, and other such and intended to make an example of her. We can't lay the entire dynamics of the situation on Eqwene's shoulders, OR assume this will be the future trend of tests.

 

 

Oh, no, don't get me wrong, I quite agree that its foolish to lay the whole of the blame for Nynaeve's testing on Egwene's shoulders- after all, she was not the only one making the visions. Nor would I assign her blame equal to theirs for the testing- I think it was foolish of her to take part, and I think her partaking of what she knew, or at least suspected to be, a brutal test with just as much brutality does not reflect well on her, HOWEVER, her own reasons for doing so seem to have been political, if perhaps misguided, whereas with many of the others, it seems mostly to have been down to spite- presumably because Nynaeve, being a wilder and "not a proper AS" has made miraculous discoveries, surpassed all of them in power, and will stand above them when she is raised.

 

In an ideal situation, Egwene would have not taken part in the actual testing, even if she was present. In another ideal situation, she would have realised the test was brutal, made her own input more appropriate and reprimanded the AS afterwards. At the very least, having decided to take part, and that she wouldn't risk her position even remotely by being fair in the testing, she SHOULD have reprimanded the AS who took part, and had them apologise to Nynaeve (personally I prefer some "penance" as their option, but assuming she doesn't want to go the public humiliation route). And she didn't- the only one who reprimanded them was Saerin. I mean, OK, Saerin's awesome, but that doesn't mean Egwene shouldn't have to step up to the plate, too :P

 

IMO, this wasn't the worst thing Egwene's ever done, and excuses can be made- its in no way the same as when she tries to cover her arse by scaring Nynaeve and then is giggly about her power trip afterwards in TFoH- but I do think it was badly handled on her part. I doubt that every testing will be like this, and I in no way believe that Egwene INTENDS to make the practice in any way similar to this- she needs AS too badly for that- but I do wonder if her implicit consent to Nynaeve's treatment will mean that when it comes time for Elayne to be tested (or any Accepted that has gotten "above their place", or a wilder, or someone who has made more discoveries than full sisters, or anyone who is close to Egwene) then any AS feeling spiteful (using the example of Elayne because she and Nynaeve are in very similar situations re. the Aes Sedai) will do the same as they did to Nynaeve, on the basis that the Amyrlin never said anything against it.

 

Afaik Egwene cannot see into the future and cannot decide not to take part in something she doesn't know will get so out of control. And once started she's not going to screw Nyn by going easy and possibly hurting Nyn with rumors of "She only got the shawl because the amyrlin went easy on her" And I think you're assuming she was going beyond what she thought Nyn could handle.

 

Please give me the quote where Nynaeve thinks Egwene was wrong, or where she tells Egwene she's a bad friend, or is angry at her.

 

How Nyneave feels doesn't determine whether Egwene and her actions were right or wrong. She may be fine with it, but the readers could be appalled, the same way that, while damane are fine with their situation, and probably think the suldam are right when they punish them, the readers should probably be disgusted by what is done to the damane. Nyneave could think that Egwene and the Aes Sedai should have been much harsher on her, but it wouldn't they would be right to be harsher. A persons feelings are completely subjetctive and do not determine right or wrong.

 

So now Egwene has Nynaeve leashed so strongly through some trick of her will that Nyn is incapable of expressing how she 'should' be feeling? Has Egwene brow beat Nynaeve and broken her will now?

 

You honestly think that's a reasonable analogy?

 

No, you misunderstand me. I'm not comparing Egwene to a suldam, or Nyneave to a damane. I'm just saying that whether Nyneave feels that Egwene was right or not should not decide whether what Egwene did was right or not. It is only how Nyneave feels about it. She may be wrong in believing that there was nothing wrong with what Egwene did. The allusion to the damane/suldam situation was simply to give an example where the "act" that people are judging is far worse. Just like it would be wrong to say that it's fine for the suldam to treat the damane the way they do just because the damane agree with it, it would be wrong to say that the way Egwene acted in Nyneave's testing is not wrong just because Nyneave is fine with it. The fact that what the suldam do to damane is far worse (in my opinion) than what Egwene did to Nyneave is irrelevant. I'm simply trying to say that the way the "victim" feels, however grave the "crime" may be, should not decide whether the crime was, in fact, a crime. In this case, the fact that Nyneave is fine with what Egwene did, does not mean that it was fine for Egwene to do as she did, despite the fact that it was done to her (Nyneave).

Indeed, Nyneave, and Egwene of course, are the worst placed to decide whether what Egwene did was right or not, because it was Egwene's actions, and Nyneave was the one who felt the effects. Therefore they can't be trusted to be objective.

 

Does that clear things up? Or did I just make it worse?

[Kahsm]

In Nyn's test, Egwene might have taken it a step far for the scenario she created. She seemed to realize this as she apologized to Nyneave afterwords. However, Egwene can not be held responsible for the other Aes Sedai's reasons. She might have pushed the envelope, but they took it above and beyond where she intended. These women were obviously jealous of Nyn's power, wilder standing, and other such and intended to make an example of her. We can't lay the entire dynamics of the situation on Eqwene's shoulders, OR assume this will be the future trend of tests.

 

 

Oh, no, don't get me wrong, I quite agree that its foolish to lay the whole of the blame for Nynaeve's testing on Egwene's shoulders- after all, she was not the only one making the visions. Nor would I assign her blame equal to theirs for the testing- I think it was foolish of her to take part, and I think her partaking of what she knew, or at least suspected to be, a brutal test with just as much brutality does not reflect well on her, HOWEVER, her own reasons for doing so seem to have been political, if perhaps misguided, whereas with many of the others, it seems mostly to have been down to spite- presumably because Nynaeve, being a wilder and "not a proper AS" has made miraculous discoveries, surpassed all of them in power, and will stand above them when she is raised.

 

In an ideal situation, Egwene would have not taken part in the actual testing, even if she was present. In another ideal situation, she would have realised the test was brutal, made her own input more appropriate and reprimanded the AS afterwards. At the very least, having decided to take part, and that she wouldn't risk her position even remotely by being fair in the testing, she SHOULD have reprimanded the AS who took part, and had them apologise to Nynaeve (personally I prefer some "penance" as their option, but assuming she doesn't want to go the public humiliation route). And she didn't- the only one who reprimanded them was Saerin. I mean, OK, Saerin's awesome, but that doesn't mean Egwene shouldn't have to step up to the plate, too :P

 

IMO, this wasn't the worst thing Egwene's ever done, and excuses can be made- its in no way the same as when she tries to cover her arse by scaring Nynaeve and then is giggly about her power trip afterwards in TFoH- but I do think it was badly handled on her part. I doubt that every testing will be like this, and I in no way believe that Egwene INTENDS to make the practice in any way similar to this- she needs AS too badly for that- but I do wonder if her implicit consent to Nynaeve's treatment will mean that when it comes time for Elayne to be tested (or any Accepted that has gotten "above their place", or a wilder, or someone who has made more discoveries than full sisters, or anyone who is close to Egwene) then any AS feeling spiteful (using the example of Elayne because she and Nynaeve are in very similar situations re. the Aes Sedai) will do the same as they did to Nynaeve, on the basis that the Amyrlin never said anything against it.

 

Afaik Egwene cannot see into the future and cannot decide not to take part in something she doesn't know will get so out of control. And once started she's not going to screw Nyn by going easy and possibly hurting Nyn with rumors of "She only got the shawl because the amyrlin went easy on her" And I think you're assuming she was going beyond what she thought Nyn could handle.

 

Please give me the quote where Nynaeve thinks Egwene was wrong, or where she tells Egwene she's a bad friend, or is angry at her.

 

How Nyneave feels doesn't determine whether Egwene and her actions were right or wrong. She may be fine with it, but the readers could be appalled, the same way that, while damane are fine with their situation, and probably think the suldam are right when they punish them, the readers should probably be disgusted by what is done to the damane. Nyneave could think that Egwene and the Aes Sedai should have been much harsher on her, but it wouldn't they would be right to be harsher. A persons feelings are completely subjetctive and do not determine right or wrong.

 

So now Egwene has Nynaeve leashed so strongly through some trick of her will that Nyn is incapable of expressing how she 'should' be feeling? Has Egwene brow beat Nynaeve and broken her will now?

 

You honestly think that's a reasonable analogy?

 

No, you misunderstand me. I'm not comparing Egwene to a suldam, or Nyneave to a damane. I'm just saying that whether Nyneave feels that Egwene was right or not should not decide whether what Egwene did was right or not. It is only how Nyneave feels about it. She may be wrong in believing that there was nothing wrong with what Egwene did. The allusion to the damane/suldam situation was simply to give an example where the "act" that people are judging is far worse. Just like it would be wrong to say that it's fine for the suldam to treat the damane the way they do just because the damane agree with it, it would be wrong to say that the way Egwene acted in Nyneave's testing is not wrong just because Nyneave is fine with it. The fact that what the suldam do to damane is far worse (in my opinion) than what Egwene did to Nyneave is irrelevant. I'm simply trying to say that the way the "victim" feels, however grave the "crime" may be, should not decide whether the crime was, in fact, a crime. In this case, the fact that Nyneave is fine with what Egwene did, does not mean that it was fine for Egwene to do as she did, despite the fact that it was done to her (Nyneave).

Indeed, Nyneave, and Egwene of course, are the worst placed to decide whether what Egwene did was right or not, because it was Egwene's actions, and Nyneave was the one who felt the effects. Therefore they can't be trusted to be objective.

 

Does that clear things up? Or did I just make it worse?

 

I would agree with you, except you're getting offended on Nynaeve's behalf. And since Nynaeve is capable, able, and usually expresses any and all slights against her, there is simply no reason. And quite frankly it would be quite presumptuous.

 

The difference is that Eggs and Nyn are friends and know eachother better than we know them. That is very different from Seanchan customs regarding all channelers. To impose your ideals and impressions of friendship on them is wrong. If I had a disabled friend who used a wheelchair and called him legs, some silly people would call me a jerk. But I may do it because it makes him laugh, and because we're friends he knows that when I do it the intension is quite different than if a stranger did it.

[Turin Turambar]

With all this recent talk I had a thought about Nyn's motivation for not saying anything after the test. First, she must have been a little in shock from the experience and being healed. She may not realize exactly what happened until later.(Granted, we don't see anything to show she changed her mind) Second, the entire reason she agreed to take the test was to support Egwene in her position as Amyrlin. It wouldn't be very supportive to go off on Egwene in front of all the others.

 

I think the best option for Egwene would have been to stay out of the testing. There were enough AS to take care of it. Don't micromanage Egwene.

[Entreri]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not have the book on me--but I thought Egwene had no direct part in Nynaeve's testing. She was there as a witness to the event only, and had no part of the weaving. That, I thought, was all done by the Sitters, and thus Egwene would not even have been able to see the tests.

 

Get the e-books, so much more convenient. I have switched over and never looked back. You can carry it anywhere you want with PC application or the reader itself.

[SylvanFox]

The difference is that Eggs and Nyn are friends and know eachother better than we know them. That is very different from Seanchan customs regarding all channelers. To impose your ideals and impressions of friendship on them is wrong. If I had a disabled friend who used a wheelchair and called him legs, some silly people would call me a jerk. But I may do it because it makes him laugh, and because we're friends he knows that when I do it the intension is quite different than if a stranger did it.

 

Kinda like calling people "Nigga."

 

This might be a little off-topic, but does anyone else find AS testing in general to be utterly disgusting? in Nyn's test, the AS were exceptionally cruel, but based on the tests for Accepted and full AS, it seems like the number one qualifying factor for being an AS is that you would sacrifice people you care about just to stay in the tower. Demanding that someone value your organization over their own friends and family is not uncommon (most careers will ask the same, to some degree) but the AS want to see that you will let your people DIE for them. That's wrong, IMO.

 

I hope Egwene moves for a better tower, but her conduct in Nyn's test doesn't exactly suggest it. Her acceptance of the Kin and other cultures' "wilders," however, is a good sign. Plus... it's Nyn. Yeah, she might get mad if you are rough on her... but imagine what she would do if you decided to go easy on her, thinking she couldn't handle it?

[Himiko]

Afaik Egwene cannot see into the future and cannot decide not to take part in something she doesn't know will get so out of control. And once started she's not going to screw Nyn by going easy and possibly hurting Nyn with rumors of "She only got the shawl because the amyrlin went easy on her" And I think you're assuming she was going beyond what she thought Nyn could handle.

 

Please give me the quote where Nynaeve thinks Egwene was wrong, or where she tells Egwene she's a bad friend, or is angry at her.

 

No, I know Egwene can't see into the future. I think Egwene should have stayed out of it, not because it got way out of hand, though her presence didn't help that at all, but because it was a bad political move on her part. Think about it. The AS will know that Egwene was there for Nynaeve's testing. We, the readers know that Egwene was very hard on Nynaeve, the AS who were not part of the testing will not. And, especially given that its not done to talk about a testing after it finishes, there is no way to prove to other AS one way or another if Egwene went easy or hard on Nynaeve.

 

Put it this way- you say that going easy could have hurt Nynaeve with rumours of "She only got the shawl because the Amyrlin went easy on her". Had Egwene not been involved with Nyn's testing at all, then this is a non-issue. With her there, these rumours might well spring up, because with the exception of the few AS who were part of the testing, none of them know what part Egwene took. There was no need for her to be there, the fact that she was may hurt Nyn regardless of how she acted.

 

My issue with her given that she DID take part in the test was that, once it became apparent, through Saerin's words if not before, that the AS had been acting way beyond the acceptable limit out of spite, she did not reprimand them, did not force them to apologise. In a sense, she gave them the OK for what they'd just done, which was bully and deliberately try and fail, possibly killing in the process, someone who they didn't feel was worthy, or, more likely, felt shown up by. That's neither being a good friend, nor a good leader. Saerin can scold them all she wants, but if the Amyrlin is just sitting idly by, letting them be in the meanwhile, that's going to leave them with a certain impression of how Egwene will act in certain scenarios. And not a good one.

 

So no, I didn't expect her to see into the future and refuse to take part in something that would get out of control. I expected her to see that her presence might do more harm than good to Nyn's standing in the tower, and stay out of the testing process. Since she didn't do that, I expected her to take on board Saerin's words that the way the other AS acted towards Nynaeve was totally out of line and act accordingly. Neither of these involves her seeing the future. I don't think it was her finest hour, as person or politician. Not her worst, but not her finest.

[Turin Turambar]

Another thought, What weave was the scene in Emond's field that Egwene setup? That was very rough. It could be argued that the other AS saw Egwene and assumed it would be okay for them to do the same. And then it just grew from there as they became frustrated with Nyn "bending"/breaking the rules.

[David Selig]

The whole testing is such a flawed procedure. Risking the lives of the Accepted s both inhumane and stupid, especially given that channellers are quite rare and can be useful in so many ways.

 

And as we see in both Nynaeve and Moiraine's testing, it's quite common occurrence that those Aes Sedai who operate the testing Ter'angreal have some kind of grudge against the tested person and intentionally make it harder for her, which obviously is something any kind of testing system should try to avoid. IIRC it was hardly a secret that Elaida disliked Moiraine and Siuan yet she was one of those who participated in their testing.

[Durinax]

The whole testing is such a flawed procedure. Risking the lives of the Accepted s both inhumane and stupid, especially given that channellers are quite rare and can be useful in so many ways.

 

And as we see in both Nynaeve and Moiraine's testing, it's quite common occurrence that those Aes Sedai who operate the testing Ter'angreal have some kind of grudge against the tested person and intentionally make it harder for her, which obviously is something any kind of testing system should try to avoid. IIRC it was hardly a secret that Elaida disliked Moiraine and Siuan yet she was one of those who participated in their testing.

2 cases doesnt make it common. In fact we have evidence to the contrary by Saerin telling off the others.

 

A test is no test if there is no risk. besides I think that they can stop the test midway through to save a life

[David Selig]

So you think the only way to test whether someone is ready to be an Aes Sedai is to put her life at significant risk? I strongly disagree.

 

And yeah, only 2 cases, but since those were the only two we've seen, they are pretty much the only info we have. Elaida was probably participating in Siuan's test too, but I am too lazy to check if that's mentioned.

[Durinax]

So you think the only way to test whether someone is ready to be an Aes Sedai is to put her life at significant risk? I strongly disagree.

 

And yeah, only 2 cases, but since those were the only two we've seen, they are pretty much the only info we have. Elaida was probably participating in Siuan's test too, but I am too lazy to check if that's mentioned.

I believe there is no way to know how a person would act unless they where put into some sort of reasonable simulation.

 

that is what they are trying to replicate, it isnt as though they are doing it just to see if they can survive and are making it as hard as possible.

 

 

 

are you saying they should give the title of AS to someone untested, wihtout knowing how they may react under pressure?

[David Selig]

Reasonable simulation which has a goal to test how would the Accepted react under pressure is one thing, a test which has lead to the deaths of quite a a few Accepted over the years is quite another.

 

There are lot of important real life jobs in which you have to deal with lots of pressure, but I can't think of any example where you have to go through testing which puts you in serious danger of losing your life just to get your licence for this job, and there's a reason for that.

[Durinax]

Reasonable simulation which has a goal to test how would the Accepted react under pressure is one thing, a test which has lead to the deaths of quite a a few Accepted over the years is quite another.

 

There are lot of important real life jobs in which you have to deal with lots of pressure, but I can't think of any example where you have to go through testing which puts you in serious danger of losing your life just to get your licence for this job, and there's a reason for that.

I would like to ask for a quote stating whether or not 'quite a few Accepted' die, it could be they fail and get put out of the tower

[Rose]

We know of at least one, in New Spring, and from the way they talk about it, it seems like it's not all that rare. Sorry, I don't have the book though...

[David Selig]

What Rose said (the Accepted who died was named Ellid), plus we have this from Moiraine's thoughts in NS: ". That was a very real possibility with a number of weaves. Some of the simplest could prove disastrous, done just a little off. Women had died in the testing, but obviously not from bungling a weave. "

 

Also IIRC quite a few of the women in the Kin couldn't became Aes Sedai because they were too afraid to go through with the test for the shawl or for becoming Accepted (Reanne for example). Given all the benefits of being an Aes Sedai, they must consider those tests very dangerous to give up and run away after years of training.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Well, usually the people who fail the test for Aes Sedai and survive are those that lost emotional composure in the test. As far as I know its not possible to refuse taking the test for the Shawl... The test for the Ring, maybe, but I'm not sure about the test for the Shawl.

[Justanotherfacet]

I think we have to remember that these are women with pretty damn formidable levels of power.

Would it not be irresponsible to allow them to waltz about the land, working for an organization which has the goal of administrating the world if they had not proven that they will not crack under extreme pressure. The kind of pressure they are more than likely to have to confront if they are to be a valuable and effective asset. Remember this is a test to join an elite organization. They know the risks and can leave any time.

[AshaShan]

I think we have to remember that these are women with pretty damn formidable levels of power.

Would it not be irresponsible to allow them to waltz about the land, working for an organization which has the goal of administrating the world if they had not proven that they will not crack under extreme pressure. The kind of pressure they are more than likely to have to confront if they are to be a valuable and effective asset. Remember this is a test to join an elite organization. They know the risks and can leave any time.

 

IMO proving that you can watch friends and children die without losing composure should disqualify you from administering anything more important and a sweetshop much less the world the world.

[Hadilmir]

IMO proving that you can watch friends and children die without losing composure should disqualify you from administering anything more important and a sweetshop much less the world the world.

IMO when you allow yourself that much power, that much responsibility, if you are not entirely steadfast in yourself you deserve the inevitable collapse. There is a reason special forces of all kinds are so disciplined, a man with their talents and training but lacking their discipline is really someone I would ever allow near myself or my family.

 

(I'd rather not debate personal philosophies here, I was merely giving your post another perspective you could compare it to, Cheers)

[Himiko]

I think we have to remember that these are women with pretty damn formidable levels of power.

Would it not be irresponsible to allow them to waltz about the land, working for an organization which has the goal of administrating the world if they had not proven that they will not crack under extreme pressure. The kind of pressure they are more than likely to have to confront if they are to be a valuable and effective asset. Remember this is a test to join an elite organization. They know the risks and can leave any time.

 

But we're talking about a very specific test here. Whether you believe that the tests to raise Accepted to AS are too brutal or totally reasonable, we must accept that, as far as the AS are concerned, these tests are a totally reasonable marker (personally, I can see the benefits of testing whether an AS can channel under pressure, or when confronted with a horrific sight. I don't see why its necessary that she not run to help people who need her help, or to leave behind people in need of help to get to the Tower - which is essentially the goal- so I guess I can see both pros and cons for the current testing system).

 

In the case of Nynaeve's test, however, it is very clear- Saerin has taken part in many tests, including ones where a girl died, and she labels what her fellow AS did in the test as unreasonable, shameful, and vengeful. In other words- they put on a test that could have killed an Accepted, purposefully. They were so harsh that Saerin saw the reasoning behind it as vengeance, actively not wanting Nynaeve to pass, despite the fact that she did the "impossible" (healing Stilling and Gentling) whilst still blocked, and assisting Rand with cleansing the Taint, its not like she hasn't proven she can channel under pressure. My point is, whatever your views on the testing process in general, it is very clear that this particular test went way above and beyond what is considered anywhere near acceptable. It is above a potentially fatal level. It is an overly harsh test performed, in some cases, out of spite. Had Nynaeve's test been run of the mill, then the question might be asked about whether the test in general is an appropriate way of selecting AS. But it is made very clear in the books that this was an unusual occurence, and the sisters involved were right out of line.

 

AS are supposed to be Servants of All, a group that helps people, and Nynaeve's test is made into an excuse to force her to leave behind people that need her help, so she can perform useless weaves, as far as she can see it. An AS that can't crack under pressure? Great. An AS that will let the world go to hell around her for something that is obviously pointless? An AS that will not run to help people because she will not look composed? I don't see what use that is, whatsoever.

[Suttree]

An AS that will let the world go to hell around her for something that is obviously pointless?

 

Since that was so obviously the point of that particular challenge Don't get me wrong, I agree with Saerin's assessment but lets be realistic about this. There is already enough wrong with the situation and no need to start tossing hyperbole around.

[Ala Rubra]

An AS that will let the world go to hell around her for something that is obviously pointless?

 

Since that was so obviously the point of that particular challenge Don't get me wrong, I agree with Saerin's assessment but lets be realistic about this. There is already enough wrong with the situation and no need to start tossing hyperbole around.

 

I don't think you get it. It's the weaves that were so obviously pointless. The test robbed Nynaeve of the rationale for performing the weaves, for keeping her composure, for not running and not channeling before a certain point, making them pointless to her perspective. Faced with people in obvious and imminent need of her help, ignoring them to keep apparently arbitrary rules is immoral and heartless.