Why are people upset with Sanderson's take on Mat?

[Superhal]

Sorry if this was done to death, but I read BS' interview where he states he got the biggest criticism on Mat. I see this here and there too around the boards, but I don't really understand why. If there's an ongoing thread about it, a link would be great.

 

Personally, I liked it. Mat was RJ's whipping boy since book 1. He's been cursed, insane, killed (twice), crippled, and blinded (one-and-a-half times.) A wall fell on him, a darkhound spit on him, he was resurrected by balefire, kept as a sex toy, his girlfriend tried to kill him, etc. etc. etc. I'm glad he's getting some scenes where he's not being tortured or the target of an assassin.

 

I heard the argument that tGS/ToM isn't the "true" Mat. Well, given all the perverse torture he's been through, there was really no time for his real personality to come through. Maybe this is his real personality?

[USURP888]

I used to think that those criticizing the new "Mat" were just a vocal minority trying to nitpick Sanderson's writing, but on one family gathering where all my relatives are present we got to discussing WOT. I got an Uncle, an Aunt, one brother and three sisters that read WOT the same as I do.

 

Turns out, all of them thought Mat was off for one reason or another.

 

My uncle thought Mat tries too hard to be funny since TGS.

 

My Aunt says Mat has lost his introspection, it used to be funny to see that what he thinks is very different from what he does.

 

The rest of the brood basically agreed with her.

 

I personally think Mat's alright, but I guess alot more people believe otherwise.

[Juggler]

I think Matt's great, I also think the changes in him are more to do with all those things he's been through also he's married now and that would effect any guy it's harder for him to be down on nobles without doing it wryly, he's come to accept the fact he is responsible for the band and Olver, I don't think the change in Matt is to do with Sanderson (although it's an obvious assessment) I think anyone who has come through so much WOULD change. He no longer thinks of himself as the prankster (Although did enjoy sanderson have matt turn up with a badger) he has a wife he has to go to war with and an orphan he thinks of like a son. I think Mat just grew up he was a boy at the start, but now he realises he needs to man up a bit.

[Niniel]

I have no problem with anything that Sanderson write. I think he has done a great job. The only thing that is disturbing is the time lines.

[brolie]

I like Mat MORE in tGS and ToM. I thought him and Talmanes and their little quips were hilarious where I laughed out loud for the first time in this series. His story line DOES have a different feel to it than the rest of the book, like it's a separate book altogether with a different style, it reads like a british comedy to me. I can understand people reading the books for so long and never having the FEEL change and being thrown off when that happens. I looked forward to Mat's PoV chapters and really think people are confusing dislike for other feelings like confusion.

[Kahsm]

I have no problem with anything that Sanderson write. I think he has done a great job. The only thing that is disturbing is the time lines.

 

No one remembers RJ's scarf fiasco? Timeline is rough for this type of story. I suspect we may have similar issues with the new ASoIaF book because I think GRRM said it's supposed to take place in along the same timeline as the previous book from 7 years ago... with the new perspectives left out of that last one.

 

But anyway, the new Mat is great, hilarious, more believable, and works amazingly well with the very changed Talmanes.

[Ingtar Shinowa]

Mat's going on and on to Talmanes about "women are like..." was painful, as was the pair of boots chapter. Other than that, I don't see reason for complaint. And I absolutely love Talmanes constantly laughing at him.

[randsc]

Mat's a little off. I'm not upset about it, but it is true. I think that character is the place where it is easiest to see the difference between the two authors.

[Dakota]

Mat may be a little bit different, but I for one am more than willing to take it with a grain of salt simply due to having a new author. Is it better? Is it worse? Either side can be debated on. I think most people are upset over the fact that, for better or worse, he's different, and they don't like seeing character's personalities change after 20 years.

 

Me, I'm perfectly willing to just hit the "I Believe" button and enjoy the character for what it's worth.

[Sid]

I believe that nobody could write Mat properly since RJ's passing. It's sad, but Sanderson certainly hasn't disproved it, even though ToM was better than most of TGS in that regard. RJ did things in a very subtle way, which unfortunately may be impossible to emulate.

 

Mat is funny, but doesn't tell jokes. He's outrageous and offensive to stuck up people, but by far the most offensive things he says are accidental, and he's just speaking his mind (in a reasonable way to him) when he's already thinking about something else. He only notices their reactions afterwards and usually attributes them to something other than the thing he said that caused them. The things he says like that on purpose are usually rather tame. He takes himself way too seriously. He thinks one thing and does the opposite, and it turns out to be the right move and is endearing.

 

If he suddenly starts making jokes to be funny and using clever wordplay and puns, it becomes a glaring difference right off the bat. Then every single other thing that he does comes into way too much scrutiny from a reader. Most of what he did would very probably have been a very small deviation from what RJ would have had him do at most, but his inner thought processes take you out of the immersion and one starts thinking about things too much. What was the point of Hinderstap? Would he and Verin have really made that deal? Would he make himself look like that much of a fool on purpose in his letter to Elayne? I'm sure he would have done very similar things yet the lack of immersion keeps those questions in the back of a reader's mind, and then the whole chapter falls apart.

 

It's a bit of a sore point for me since Mat was my favorite character through KoD, and I'd read his chapters two or three times more than any other characters in the books. I still can't wait for AMoL to see what he does there, but after TGS I've learned that I need to take things with a grain of salt like Dakota mentioned. After the initial shock wore off it was easier to go with the flow in ToM, and hopefully it'll be even easier with AMoL, and also BS has improved a bit with it. That he's taking his time on AMoL is a good indicator to me that not only this aspect of the book may be better for it, but the book overall will be.

[PCL]

The fact is that any changes in Mat were orchestrated by RJ himself. Because, Brandon is writing the characters from RJ's notes. So, don't pick on Brandon when it's RJ's doing.

[Suttree]

The fact is that any changes in Mat were orchestrated by RJ himself. Because, Brandon is writing the characters from RJ's notes. So, don't pick on Brandon when it's RJ's doing.

 

This isn't true and it doesn't really work like that. For instance I can guarantee the "Hinderstrap" scene was not anywhere in RJ's notes. They may have said "bubble of evil" but the details and voice are all BS and we most certainly can point that out.

[Elgee]

I believe that nobody could write Mat properly since RJ's passing. It's sad, but Sanderson certainly hasn't disproved it, even though ToM was better than most of TGS in that regard. RJ did things in a very subtle way, which unfortunately may be impossible to emulate.

 

Mat is funny, but doesn't tell jokes. He's outrageous and offensive to stuck up people, but by far the most offensive things he says are accidental, and he's just speaking his mind (in a reasonable way to him) when he's already thinking about something else. He only notices their reactions afterwards and usually attributes them to something other than the thing he said that caused them. The things he says like that on purpose are usually rather tame. He takes himself way too seriously. He thinks one thing and does the opposite, and it turns out to be the right move and is endearing.

 

If he suddenly starts making jokes to be funny and using clever wordplay and puns, it becomes a glaring difference right off the bat. Then every single other thing that he does comes into way too much scrutiny from a reader. Most of what he did would very probably have been a very small deviation from what RJ would have had him do at most, but his inner thought processes take you out of the immersion and one starts thinking about things too much. What was the point of Hinderstap? Would he and Verin have really made that deal? Would he make himself look like that much of a fool on purpose in his letter to Elayne? I'm sure he would have done very similar things yet the lack of immersion keeps those questions in the back of a reader's mind, and then the whole chapter falls apart.

 

It's a bit of a sore point for me since Mat was my favorite character through KoD, and I'd read his chapters two or three times more than any other characters in the books. I still can't wait for AMoL to see what he does there, but after TGS I've learned that I need to take things with a grain of salt like Dakota mentioned. After the initial shock wore off it was easier to go with the flow in ToM, and hopefully it'll be even easier with AMoL, and also BS has improved a bit with it. That he's taking his time on AMoL is a good indicator to me that not only this aspect of the book may be better for it, but the book overall will be.

 

Syd explained exactly how I feel. The only thing on which I differ is that with every re-read he grates on me a bit more, not less. On first read, I nearly wet myself laughing at his chat with Verin and his letter to Elayne. I still find it hilarious, but the rest of him just does not work for me - it's too caricaturish. Most of the characters seem that way to me now.

[peregrine]

I believe that nobody could write Mat properly since RJ's passing. It's sad, but Sanderson certainly hasn't disproved it, even though ToM was better than most of TGS in that regard. RJ did things in a very subtle way, which unfortunately may be impossible to emulate.

 

Mat is funny, but doesn't tell jokes. He's outrageous and offensive to stuck up people, but by far the most offensive things he says are accidental, and he's just speaking his mind (in a reasonable way to him) when he's already thinking about something else. He only notices their reactions afterwards and usually attributes them to something other than the thing he said that caused them. The things he says like that on purpose are usually rather tame. He takes himself way too seriously. He thinks one thing and does the opposite, and it turns out to be the right move and is endearing.

 

If he suddenly starts making jokes to be funny and using clever wordplay and puns, it becomes a glaring difference right off the bat. Then every single other thing that he does comes into way too much scrutiny from a reader. Most of what he did would very probably have been a very small deviation from what RJ would have had him do at most, but his inner thought processes take you out of the immersion and one starts thinking about things too much. What was the point of Hinderstap? Would he and Verin have really made that deal? Would he make himself look like that much of a fool on purpose in his letter to Elayne? I'm sure he would have done very similar things yet the lack of immersion keeps those questions in the back of a reader's mind, and then the whole chapter falls apart.

 

It's a bit of a sore point for me since Mat was my favorite character through KoD, and I'd read his chapters two or three times more than any other characters in the books. I still can't wait for AMoL to see what he does there, but after TGS I've learned that I need to take things with a grain of salt like Dakota mentioned. After the initial shock wore off it was easier to go with the flow in ToM, and hopefully it'll be even easier with AMoL, and also BS has improved a bit with it. That he's taking his time on AMoL is a good indicator to me that not only this aspect of the book may be better for it, but the book overall will be.

 

Syd explained exactly how I feel. The only thing on which I differ is that with every re-read he grates on me a bit more, not less. On first read, I nearly wet myself laughing at his chat with Verin and his letter to Elayne. I still find it hilarious, but the rest of him just does not work for me - it's too caricaturish. Most of the characters seem that way to me now.

 

I have to agree -- "caricaturish" is the right word. Mat has always acted a bit foolish, but never to the extent he does in Sanderson's writing. I almost died laughing when I read his letter to Elayne, but the only way I think it could be in character for him is if he stated somewhere in the book that he was 'cutting the fool' intentionally when he wrote it (Mat: "How else will she know it's from me?"). Therein lies the difference, for me: RJ's Mat maybe acted the fool sometimes, but he hasn't really thought or acted all that much like a fool since he entered Rhuidean all those books ago. When Birgitte stated he was "a dangerous man" or Noal stated he was "a great man," you believed them even if the other book characters didn't. Sanderson's Mat is still delightful to read, but he blusters more than I like. Mat isn't meant to be the comic relief, he's meant to be taken seriously. The comedy is supposed to come from our understanding that everyone should be taking Mat more seriously than they are (Tuon: "A buffoon? No. A lion stuffed in a horse-stall might look like a peculiar joke, but a lion on the high plains was something very different").

[pongjinn]

Mat's going on and on to Talmanes about "women are like..." was painful, as was the pair of boots chapter. Other than that, I don't see reason for complaint. And I absolutely love Talmanes constantly laughing at him.

 

Absolutely, the Boots chapter was just .... bad, not necessarily a 'Mat' thing though, the entire dialogue was off (Setalle Anan too).

 

I agree with whats been said about him becoming a caricature. The mispelled letter to Elayne threw me off too.

[Suttree]

Have to say, one of the most jarring moments of the series was when they released the Seven Striped Lass early. I seriously thought to myself it was over given how bad that chapter was...BS has done some things well, but Mat cannot be counted among them by any stretch of the imagination.

[Apple13]

I thought Mat was a bit off too. When RJ wrote Mat, he made his feelings and personality a little bit more subtle. I thought Mat was the character least likely of the taveren trio to go around talking about his feelings. But the Mat of BS is a more openly funny character. And he's a lot more open about his feelings too, to Setalle and the Band. I thought it was funnier because of his interactions with Talmanes and Thom, but Mat used to have a bit more style IMO.

[Finnssss22]

The fact is that any changes in Mat were orchestrated by RJ himself. Because, Brandon is writing the characters from RJ's notes. So, don't pick on Brandon when it's RJ's doing.

 

 

To expand on this a bit, I believe BS even stated that the only character he had to truly write from scratch was Perrin.

A lot of the Mat scenes were already done or partially done from what I understood.

[Sid]

If by 'a lot' you mean the chapters within the Tower of Ghenji, then sure. But I am nearly certain even that part never made it through RJ's rigorous re-revising and self editing process. He often rewrote sections many, many times before even letting anyone see them, even Harriet. In fact, if the time that 'bloody ashes' appears in his ToG chapters was a result of RJ missing a slip up and BS read it and suddenly thought it was OK to suddenly have everyone say that even though they never ever said it in the first 11 books, I'm gonna be a little peeved.

 

On the other hand, Brandon seems to 'get' Perrin as well as any character in the series. He nailed it in writing Perrin for ToM IMO.

[Kahsm]

The fact is that any changes in Mat were orchestrated by RJ himself. Because, Brandon is writing the characters from RJ's notes. So, don't pick on Brandon when it's RJ's doing.

 

 

To expand on this a bit, I believe BS even stated that the only character he had to truly write from scratch was Perrin.

A lot of the Mat scenes were already done or partially done from what I understood.

 

I think Brandon said that he rewrote everything in his own style so that it would be consistent. Even the "completed" ones. Which is why some people still noticed turns of phrase that Sanderson uses in the ToG scenes. So all the detail, action, dialogue are RJs, but the writing style is still Sanderson's. Unlike other parts, where Brandon said there would be one paragraph describing an entire scene and he had to fill in all the detail.

 

Can't remember where I read/heard that... I'm thinking it was in those video interviews that were posted the other day from that Euro website.

[Dagon Thyne]

Mat's a little off. I'm not upset about it, but it is true. I think that character is the place where it is easiest to see the difference between the two authors.

 

 

Well Matt is gonna be different at the last few books than he was in the earlier ones. I mean, he has been forced to do alot of growing up. He had to act as a father figure of Oliver, stop skirt chasing, after getting married to Tuon, and accept his place as the Marshall General of the Legion of the Dragon (At least I think that will be his position during the Last Battle). He has to accept his new role and that he can't simply do what he wants anymore. He is gonna have less of a sense of humor, and more seriousness.....But there are still signs of the old Matt, like when Moiraine tells Thom she wants to marry him, Matt is completely lost and it's funny to see his reaction.

 

He's gone from covering dogs in flour to scare 14 year olds to being willing to have his eye ripped out in order to save someone. Matt has changed alot during the series and it's only natural that he will seem different, and maybe even a little off to anyone who fell in love with his sense of humor and ale gussling, ass pinching ways.

[Superhal]

That part confuses me, didn't he just have an eye ripped out of his head? I would totally understand an OTC reaction then, but he simply slipped back into old Mat immediately.

[Suttree]

If you want to see one of the diff between the two and not just with Mat you should check out the scenes concerning the borderland rulers. Read prologue in TPoD and then the scene from ToM where Rand finally meets them in Far Madding. The second should have been such a momentous occasion but it just is so one dimensional and drab when put side by side. Something I have noticed more and more is the "voice", of secondary characters is very rarely unique. RJ did such an amazing job of painting each individual and truly making the borderlanders stand out. Mat on the other hand is taken much too far, in trying to capture a unique voice, he is bordering on a caricature at this point.

[Majsju]

The fact is that any changes in Mat were orchestrated by RJ himself. Because, Brandon is writing the characters from RJ's notes. So, don't pick on Brandon when it's RJ's doing.

 

 

To expand on this a bit, I believe BS even stated that the only character he had to truly write from scratch was Perrin.

A lot of the Mat scenes were already done or partially done from what I understood.

 

I think Brandon said that he rewrote everything in his own style so that it would be consistent. Even the "completed" ones. Which is why some people still noticed turns of phrase that Sanderson uses in the ToG scenes. So all the detail, action, dialogue are RJs, but the writing style is still Sanderson's. Unlike other parts, where Brandon said there would be one paragraph describing an entire scene and he had to fill in all the detail.

 

Can't remember where I read/heard that... I'm thinking it was in those video interviews that were posted the other day from that Euro website.

 

That sounds quite contrary to what Brandon has said earlier. He has several times said that he has tried to not touch the things RJ wrote, unless absolutely necessary.

[RyanL24]

I believe that nobody could write Mat properly since RJ's passing. It's sad, but Sanderson certainly hasn't disproved it, even though ToM was better than most of TGS in that regard. RJ did things in a very subtle way, which unfortunately may be impossible to emulate.

 

Mat is funny, but doesn't tell jokes. He's outrageous and offensive to stuck up people, but by far the most offensive things he says are accidental, and he's just speaking his mind (in a reasonable way to him) when he's already thinking about something else. He only notices their reactions afterwards and usually attributes them to something other than the thing he said that caused them. The things he says like that on purpose are usually rather tame. He takes himself way too seriously. He thinks one thing and does the opposite, and it turns out to be the right move and is endearing.

 

If he suddenly starts making jokes to be funny and using clever wordplay and puns, it becomes a glaring difference right off the bat. Then every single other thing that he does comes into way too much scrutiny from a reader. Most of what he did would very probably have been a very small deviation from what RJ would have had him do at most, but his inner thought processes take you out of the immersion and one starts thinking about things too much. What was the point of Hinderstap? Would he and Verin have really made that deal? Would he make himself look like that much of a fool on purpose in his letter to Elayne? I'm sure he would have done very similar things yet the lack of immersion keeps those questions in the back of a reader's mind, and then the whole chapter falls apart.

 

It's a bit of a sore point for me since Mat was my favorite character through KoD, and I'd read his chapters two or three times more than any other characters in the books. I still can't wait for AMoL to see what he does there, but after TGS I've learned that I need to take things with a grain of salt like Dakota mentioned. After the initial shock wore off it was easier to go with the flow in ToM, and hopefully it'll be even easier with AMoL, and also BS has improved a bit with it. That he's taking his time on AMoL is a good indicator to me that not only this aspect of the book may be better for it, but the book overall will be.

 

Syd explained exactly how I feel. The only thing on which I differ is that with every re-read he grates on me a bit more, not less. On first read, I nearly wet myself laughing at his chat with Verin and his letter to Elayne. I still find it hilarious, but the rest of him just does not work for me - it's too caricaturish. Most of the characters seem that way to me now.

 

I have to agree -- "caricaturish" is the right word. Mat has always acted a bit foolish, but never to the extent he does in Sanderson's writing. I almost died laughing when I read his letter to Elayne, but the only way I think it could be in character for him is if he stated somewhere in the book that he was 'cutting the fool' intentionally when he wrote it (Mat: "How else will she know it's from me?"). Therein lies the difference, for me: RJ's Mat maybe acted the fool sometimes, but he hasn't really thought or acted all that much like a fool since he entered Rhuidean all those books ago. When Birgitte stated he was "a dangerous man" or Noal stated he was "a great man," you believed them even if the other book characters didn't. Sanderson's Mat is still delightful to read, but he blusters more than I like. Mat isn't meant to be the comic relief, he's meant to be taken seriously. The comedy is supposed to come from our understanding that everyone should be taking Mat more seriously than they are (Tuon: "A buffoon? No. A lion stuffed in a horse-stall might look like a peculiar joke, but a lion on the high plains was something very different").

 

Sid likes RJ better because he was subtle. peregrine agrees. BS was too subtle in writing Mat, and should have smacked us upside the head or at least given us a hint as to why Mat was writing the letter intentionally foolish?

 

 

All of this is subjective. Two people can agree on one point while viewing things in an opposite manner.

 

 

If in your opinion, BS doesn't write Mat as well, you are entitled to that opinion. They are different writers for sure. Please know that other people have other opinions, and are equally entitled to them.

 

The boot chapter was one of my favorites in the entire series. Setalle Anan's response was hilarious. I'll admit, I didn't stop to compare her response to her previous appearances in the WoT books. I just read what she said, and enjoyed. Maybe some people read too far into this stuff? Is it because she normally does not speak so elequently or use them there big words? Because I think the writer had her do that intentionally to mess with Mat in this one situation. I'm thinking many people didn't like the chapter because it could have been spread out over a book or two if BS would have explained to us the difference in the stitching of each boot, and the varieties of boot soles, and what kind of laces did the boots have? I mean sure, save your best boots for walking, but where are you going to walk to? What are the trees like there? The weather? The people? The food?.........

 

I'm thinking that was the problem with Hinderstap. Sure, Mat's rape really had no point, but it took up a whole book or two. Hinderstap was one little chapter. Clearly not eligible for the RJ stamp of approval.

 

What was the point of Hinderstap? RAFO!!! We really can't be 100% sure what was pointless until we find out the rest of the story...

 

 

So RJ fans, feel free to have your opinion that RJ > BS, but I still need to do a little more RAFOing to really decide. In my opinion, while the Wheel Of Time is a great story set in a great world, it would have been a better story if written by somebody a little less.... expansive. I think that BS is doing a kick ass job, especially compared to the person who finished The Canterbury Tales.