Egwene ugh

[Smittyphi]

I'm a big Egwene supporter as evidenced earlier and it seems like KoD and TGS were books we couldn't easily hate her because she was going against the scumbag now known as Suffa and really, who wanted Suffa to win? She still had the issues that cropped in up Salidar, they just weren't present during her capture because it wasn't that relevant.

 

Now fast forward a bit,

Verin

Battle of Tar Valon, boom boom die raken

Amyrlin Seat

Stilling and executing of Black Ajah

 

Rand appears. Egwene still has her Salidar thinking and Rand figuratively explodes a bomb in TV, ruffling Egwene's feathers. Return of "Egwene ugh" threads and others like unto it.

[Mongoose]

Mat is one character who I fee gets better with each book, almost especially ToM.

 

As for Egwene, I think I liked her more before her capture. I'll be the first to admit, I liked the way she dealt with it, and was rooting for her.

 

Her actions and decisions in ToM made sense to me, and I have nothing against her character, I've just never really been a big fan.

 

But then, I generally am not a big fan of most of the Aes Sedai anyway (though I've always liked Elayne, another polarizing character). I liked Verin and Moiraine, but Cadsuane always grated at me. It's not just their attitudes toward Rand, either, though that's part of it, but more that their attitudes toward Rand seemed to reflect their attitudes in general.

[Lynander]

At first, I absolutely hated Nyn because she was so stubborn it boardered on stupidity. I guess you could say the same for Avi when she came into the picture. Elayne was kinda "meh". The way I looked at it, she was just along for the ride and didn't have much to offer. Min was just there also. She works good as a damsel in distress, so she was on my good side. Egwene was my favorite. She fought against the collar. She responded well (for the most part) to being taught by the Aielman.

 

Then they refused to acknowledge Mat helping them out.

 

Nyn stayed on my most hated list at this point. It wasn't until she became Rand's advisor that she gained my approval. She finally set aside her pride. I've never been a liker or a hater of Avi, she's just there, but she's also important. She's always held the middle ground for me. She did well in supporting the other girls and she will do well in helping the Aiel. But she is just...tehre...for me. Elayne, I sorta liked in the beginning, but ever since she did the thing with Mat, I can't stand. She uses people to her advantage and wouldn't be there without a good support cast. To me, she is very undeserving of her role on the Sun Throne. Just very lucky. Plus, I didn't like her attitude towards Two Rivers. Min is probably my favorite of the women because she is the best damsel in distress character. She works well with Rand. Her pride doesn't get in the way like the other women. Is the ability to be used by other people a likeable trait? lol

 

Egwene was fine until she got turned into Amyrlin. Her hypocrisy moments could have been overlooked just as character flaws. But now the mean so much more with her position of power. Her issues with bonding Asha'man to Aes Sedai, but not the other way around could spark a big controversy between the two factions. And her need to blame Rand for everything, as well (still) is plain stupidity. She has done a lot throughout the series, but her own character flaws make her unreasonable at times. Most of all, her pride gets in the way. The moment Rand pushes her off her ladder, I will cheer. She needs to be held accountable for some things. I liked how Rand used her to get everybody together for the end of ToM

[Phariah]

Brandon actually commented that Egwene was mostly RJ in TGS. I think it's on the Egwene page (interview database).

Looks like i was right (i am seldom wrong) Sanderson cannot write egwene. Just like he can't write mat or aviendha. Not his fault i suppose but it just shows that gap in story telling between robert jordan and BS not to mention the lack of consistency.

While I doubt it will change your opinion, I think it's highly improbable that the living person best able to determine whether or not a character is 'in-character' or written correctly is you, and not Harriet(who has no known issues with how BS is writing the series, and given that she is the editor, I highly doubt she has any issues with it).

I fail to see why Harriet's opinion on this should automatically be considered more valid than Elan Tedronai's, or anyone elses.

 

 

To say something a little different to the usual run of Egwene threads, I would just like to point out that Egwene is arguably more heroic than Rand. Allow me to explain: Rand was forced into a bad situation. So was Mat, so was Perrin. They are ta'veren, the Pattern bends around them. They are forced by the Wheel to take on specific roles, which they can't really run from. They didn't choose them. As was pointed out in TGS, they might not have control over what they do, but they do over why. They are, therefore, simply constrained to make the best of a bad situation. Egwene, on the other hand, chose to become AS, chose to study with the Aiel, chose not to simply be a puppet of the Hall and to assert herself. She is, therefore, someone who chose to put herself into a bad situation. Rand had to be forced into his role, Egwene didn't. To put it another way, which would you consider to be more heroic: someone who is trapped in a burning building and rescues someone they stumble across on their way out, or someone who enters a burning building deliberately, and with the intention of saving someone? Rand is the former, Egwene is the latter.

who is to say she chose anything. why couldn't she be pulled into the weaving of the pattern around Rand. she needed to be put on the right path. she joins Rand who happens to have Moraine there to help her when she starts to channel. she happens to be in the stone of tear where she finds out about DreamWalkers. she happens to be out of the WT when rebellion happens thus she cannot be tied to either faction, and so can be a good candidate for Amryllin. Perrin, Mat, Rand all have choices. they seen the results of those other choices when they did the direct travel using the portal stone. Egwene was set on her path not done by choice.

Who is to say Egwene chose anything? By the same token, who is to say she didn't? Her choices could all be the result of ta'maral'ailen, but is there any evidence to suggest that is the case?

pretty much one word, Loial. he was brought into Rand's weaving and it is confirmed by the Elder in the stedding. Rand need's Egwene in a certain position later on to help him. the pattern set her on the path needed. Taveren get what they need not what they want. the whole series is proof. i don't see anything to say she wasn't wrapped up into Rand's taveren nature. as Moraine said the Pattern willed it. tEotW pb page 142.

Lan " no Moraine!"

Mor "it is part of the Pattern,now, Lan."

Lan "it is ridiculous! there is no reason for her to come along, and every reason for her not to."

Mor "there is a reason for it. a part of the Pattern, Lan."

[randsc]

pretty much one word, Loial. he was brought into Rand's weaving and it is confirmed by the Elder in the stedding. Rand need's Egwene in a certain position later on to help him. the pattern set her on the path needed. Taveren get what they need not what they want. the whole series is proof. i don't see anything to say she wasn't wrapped up into Rand's taveren nature. as Moraine said the Pattern willed it. tEotW pb page 142.

Lan " no Moraine!"

Mor "it is part of the Pattern,now, Lan."

Lan "it is ridiculous! there is no reason for her to come along, and every reason for her not to."

Mor "there is a reason for it. a part of the Pattern, Lan."

 

That's not the Pattern, that's Moiraine. If Loial was being forced by the Pattern to include Egwene, he would have felt compelled to bring her along. He did not feel so compelled, so an Aes Sedai bullied him, as is their wont.

[Kidicaris]

Well, if Egwene in TGS is RJ's and in ToM is Brandon's, then IMO it is a first time I know of that Brandon definitely improved a character RJ had created.

 

 

sorry but egwene in TOM is not an improvement. Infact it's worse. In TGS and KOD she was firm but gentle even in the midst of imprisonment.

 

In TOM she was extremely hard. She reminded me of the early rand days of TSR

 

For me Egwene in TGS was too perfect, too Mary Sue-ish. It was like RJ thought what would be the best thing to do in every situation and made Egwene do it, regardless of whether it was plausible story-wise. There were absolutely no limitations, no handicaps for her in TGS - her young age was not the problem in her gaining leadership (and it should have been, regardless of her competences. It is just sociological realism), she suddenly became a genius in weaving flows (she has always been good, but never that good - especially since she abandoned her Aes Sedai training to concentrate on Dreaming), all characters surrounding her lost 90% of their IQ to make her shine brighter etc.

 

TGS was in a way one huge eulogy of Egwene. I, as a reader, felt almost forced by the author to love and admire her. The writing was too simplistic, too straightforward- the author almost resigned from his usual good practice of simply describing characters' actions and allowing readers to make up their own minds. Instead he simply said: she is great, perfect, strong, fair, talented etc.

 

So, Egwene in ToM is more real to me - you can't have characters that are 100% perfect, don't make mistakes etc. There must be consequences - e.g. a typical consequence of being a "strong leader" is that you sometimes alienate people close to you, typical consequence of young age is that you lack experience in many things etc. (I have in mind an example of Egwene and relationships - she is simply clueless how to behave towards Gawyn, and so is he. And it makes sense, when we look at them in all the books).

 

Hmm. hm hm hmmm Piotreks has a point. I hadn't thought about it this way, being firmly directed by the author admire and appreciate our young queen bee. Yet I have to admit I ATE IT UPPPpppp. I completely enjoyed the Egwene/SAS chapters, I was/am a little obsessed with the AS, and I liked rooting for our underdogs Egwene, Siuan, etc.

[Phariah]

pretty much one word, Loial. he was brought into Rand's weaving and it is confirmed by the Elder in the stedding. Rand need's Egwene in a certain position later on to help him. the pattern set her on the path needed. Taveren get what they need not what they want. the whole series is proof. i don't see anything to say she wasn't wrapped up into Rand's taveren nature. as Moraine said the Pattern willed it. tEotW pb page 142.

Lan " no Moraine!"

Mor "it is part of the Pattern,now, Lan."

Lan "it is ridiculous! there is no reason for her to come along, and every reason for her not to."

Mor "there is a reason for it. a part of the Pattern, Lan."

 

That's not the Pattern, that's Moiraine. If Loial was being forced by the Pattern to include Egwene, he would have felt compelled to bring her along. He did not feel so compelled, so an Aes Sedai bullied him, as is their wont.

wha? the pattern swirl around Rand, Loial isn't taveren. and why would Rand be compelled? as seen things happen w/ taveren that they don't want yet is part of the path they have to take. Rand even confronts Egwene and asks her not to come because of the dangers. she ignores that because she doesn't want to miss the traveling outside of Two Rivers or miss the adventure of it. it is still possible for her to back out. Moraine just sees that the Pattern has plans of its own. Moraine didn't bring Egwene into it the Pattern did.

[David Selig]

Moiraine brought Egwene because that was the sensible thing to do at the time. She wanted to come, she had an incredible potential in the One Power, which made her highly valuable for an Aes Sedai, and by taking her with them Moiraine solved the problem of keeping their departure covert.

[randsc]

Moiraine brought Egwene because that was the sensible thing to do at the time. She wanted to come, she had an incredible potential in the One Power, which made her highly valuable for an Aes Sedai, and by taking her with them Moiraine solved the problem of keeping their departure covert.

 

Exactly right, both in the case of the original departure from EF and in the case of Loial's objection later.

[Red2111]

at first i didn't like or dislike Egwene, i grew to like her once she was raised to the Stole in the Little Tower and grew into her character. after tGS she became my fav good guy hands down. the way she handled Eladia was GREAT!! the whole

 

"i'd clal you a Darkfriend but the Dark One would be ashamed to be associated with you" was about as good as watching Cadsuane spank a Forsaken with a wooden brush handle!!!!

 

 

 

now on my re-read of the series, i'm really enjoying going along with her journey from doe eyed Inkeepers daughter to the kick ass strong independent woman we see in the last book.

 

the first time i read the series ver few part evoked an emotional response of tears from me (Perrins family & Morianes death) this time i felt anger and hatred and cried right with Egwnee while she was captured.

[Suttree]

Brandon actually commented that Egwene was mostly RJ in TGS. I think it's on the Egwene page (interview database).

Looks like i was right (i am seldom wrong) Sanderson cannot write egwene. Just like he can't write mat or aviendha. Not his fault i suppose but it just shows that gap in story telling between robert jordan and BS not to mention the lack of consistency.

While I doubt it will change your opinion, I think it's highly improbable that the living person best able to determine whether or not a character is 'in-character' or written correctly is you, and not Harriet(who has no known issues with how BS is writing the series, and given that she is the editor, I highly doubt she has any issues with it).

I fail to see why Harriet's opinion on this should automatically be considered more valid than Elan Tedronai's, or anyone elses.

 

 

To say something a little different to the usual run of Egwene threads, I would just like to point out that Egwene is arguably more heroic than Rand. Allow me to explain: Rand was forced into a bad situation. So was Mat, so was Perrin. They are ta'veren, the Pattern bends around them. They are forced by the Wheel to take on specific roles, which they can't really run from. They didn't choose them. As was pointed out in TGS, they might not have control over what they do, but they do over why. They are, therefore, simply constrained to make the best of a bad situation. Egwene, on the other hand, chose to become AS, chose to study with the Aiel, chose not to simply be a puppet of the Hall and to assert herself. She is, therefore, someone who chose to put herself into a bad situation. Rand had to be forced into his role, Egwene didn't. To put it another way, which would you consider to be more heroic: someone who is trapped in a burning building and rescues someone they stumble across on their way out, or someone who enters a burning building deliberately, and with the intention of saving someone? Rand is the former, Egwene is the latter.

who is to say she chose anything. why couldn't she be pulled into the weaving of the pattern around Rand. she needed to be put on the right path. she joins Rand who happens to have Moraine there to help her when she starts to channel. she happens to be in the stone of tear where she finds out about DreamWalkers. she happens to be out of the WT when rebellion happens thus she cannot be tied to either faction, and so can be a good candidate for Amryllin. Perrin, Mat, Rand all have choices. they seen the results of those other choices when they did the direct travel using the portal stone. Egwene was set on her path not done by choice.

Who is to say Egwene chose anything? By the same token, who is to say she didn't? Her choices could all be the result of ta'maral'ailen, but is there any evidence to suggest that is the case?

pretty much one word, Loial. he was brought into Rand's weaving and it is confirmed by the Elder in the stedding. Rand need's Egwene in a certain position later on to help him. the pattern set her on the path needed. Taveren get what they need not what they want. the whole series is proof. i don't see anything to say she wasn't wrapped up into Rand's taveren nature. as Moraine said the Pattern willed it. tEotW pb page 142.

Lan " no Moraine!"

Mor "it is part of the Pattern,now, Lan."

Lan "it is ridiculous! there is no reason for her to come along, and every reason for her not to."

Mor "there is a reason for it. a part of the Pattern, Lan."

 

 

Uhhh no. It was her power potential as an AS and to keep the trip quiet around the TRs that made Moraine decide to bring her.

 

Edit: David beat me to the punch...

[Elan Tedronai]

Well, if Egwene in TGS is RJ's and in ToM is Brandon's, then IMO it is a first time I know of that Brandon definitely improved a character RJ had created.

 

 

sorry but egwene in TOM is not an improvement. Infact it's worse. In TGS and KOD she was firm but gentle even in the midst of imprisonment.

 

In TOM she was extremely hard. She reminded me of the early rand days of TSR

 

For me Egwene in TGS was too perfect, too Mary Sue-ish. It was like RJ thought what would be the best thing to do in every situation and made Egwene do it, regardless of whether it was plausible story-wise. There were absolutely no limitations, no handicaps for her in TGS - her young age was not the problem in her gaining leadership (and it should have been, regardless of her competences. It is just sociological realism), she suddenly became a genius in weaving flows (she has always been good, but never that good - especially since she abandoned her Aes Sedai training to concentrate on Dreaming), all characters surrounding her lost 90% of their IQ to make her shine brighter etc.

 

TGS was in a way one huge eulogy of Egwene. I, as a reader, felt almost forced by the author to love and admire her. The writing was too simplistic, too straightforward- the author almost resigned from his usual good practice of simply describing characters' actions and allowing readers to make up their own minds. Instead he simply said: she is great, perfect, strong, fair, talented etc.

 

So, Egwene in ToM is more real to me - you can't have characters that are 100% perfect, don't make mistakes etc. There must be consequences - e.g. a typical consequence of being a "strong leader" is that you sometimes alienate people close to you, typical consequence of young age is that you lack experience in many things etc. (I have in mind an example of Egwene and relationships - she is simply clueless how to behave towards Gawyn, and so is he. And it makes sense, when we look at them in all the books).

 

 

C'mon now. You say egwene was too perfect in TGS. I mean what kind of statement is that. It looks like you made a prejudgement on her and suddenly her mode of actions do not fit with your preconceived notions. I mean what else was She wwas supposed to do. Did you want her to off someone heads during captivity? may be try an attempt an escape? I mean what would have made it 'more believeable' in your eyes in TGS?

 

RJ did not force you to love and admire egwene. The story has been told. It's up to you to gather conclusions from it and agree or disagree with any of egwene's actions in TGS. Instead you're blaming the author for making her 'perfect' as you put it.

[SuperFade]

What I disliked most about TGS is how Elaida suddenly turned into a drooling moron as soon as Egwene confronted her. The whole debate just seemed kinda off to me, with Elaida overtly grasping at straws the whole time and very obviously attempting to change the subject whenever Egwene made a point. Despite her megalomania and Fain's influence I expected her to be much more subtle and quick witted than she actually was.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Well, if Egwene in TGS is RJ's and in ToM is Brandon's, then IMO it is a first time I know of that Brandon definitely improved a character RJ had created.

 

 

sorry but egwene in TOM is not an improvement. Infact it's worse. In TGS and KOD she was firm but gentle even in the midst of imprisonment.

 

In TOM she was extremely hard. She reminded me of the early rand days of TSR

 

For me Egwene in TGS was too perfect, too Mary Sue-ish. It was like RJ thought what would be the best thing to do in every situation and made Egwene do it, regardless of whether it was plausible story-wise. There were absolutely no limitations, no handicaps for her in TGS - her young age was not the problem in her gaining leadership (and it should have been, regardless of her competences. It is just sociological realism), she suddenly became a genius in weaving flows (she has always been good, but never that good - especially since she abandoned her Aes Sedai training to concentrate on Dreaming), all characters surrounding her lost 90% of their IQ to make her shine brighter etc.

 

TGS was in a way one huge eulogy of Egwene. I, as a reader, felt almost forced by the author to love and admire her. The writing was too simplistic, too straightforward- the author almost resigned from his usual good practice of simply describing characters' actions and allowing readers to make up their own minds. Instead he simply said: she is great, perfect, strong, fair, talented etc.

 

So, Egwene in ToM is more real to me - you can't have characters that are 100% perfect, don't make mistakes etc. There must be consequences - e.g. a typical consequence of being a "strong leader" is that you sometimes alienate people close to you, typical consequence of young age is that you lack experience in many things etc. (I have in mind an example of Egwene and relationships - she is simply clueless how to behave towards Gawyn, and so is he. And it makes sense, when we look at them in all the books).

 

 

C'mon now. You say egwene was too perfect in TGS. I mean what kind of statement is that. It looks like you made a prejudgement on her and suddenly her mode of actions do not fit with your preconceived notions. I mean what else was She wwas supposed to do. Did you want her to off someone heads during captivity? may be try an attempt an escape? I mean what would have made it 'more believeable' in your eyes in TGS?

 

RJ did not force you to love and admire egwene. The story has been told. It's up to you to gather conclusions from it and agree or disagree with any of egwene's actions in TGS. Instead you're blaming the author for making her 'perfect' as you put it.

 

What would make Egwene's arc in TGS more believable to me? First thing that comes to mind- throw away the scene where an old, experienced Aes Sedai asks Egwene, (who is a teenager and who's never had a warder) for advice how to deal with this warder's problems (it was ageing, as I recall ).And Egwene solemnly answers with something very wise, of course. There is such a thing as carrying your point too far.

 

I have never had problems with the suspension of disbelief when reading fantasy, but I couldn't bear this. Try to imagine yourself in analogous situation and decide if it makes any kind of sense. When did Egwene have the time to become Master Yoda, I ask

 

There might also be a subjective difference in our perception of the style of writing. Maybe you have no problem with accepting that people can be so great as to be almost perfect without any significant development and growth process (I don't forget about Wise Ones, Siuan etc. I think that is simply not enough), so when a character is written in such a way it doesn't strike you as odd or unrealistic.

 

I, on the other hand, remember some opinions I held when I was younger and I can't believe I could be so dumb So I think that to grow you have to get through a lot of experiences, suffer a crisis or two, make some serious mistakes. You don't become such a superhuman as Egwene in TGS just like that.

 

It is very well shown in case of Rand and that's why I think RJ did much better with creating his character than Egwene. He could relate to his own experiences, especially concerning war and cold-blooded killing. In case of Egwene, her arc reads superficial and implausible to me.

 

I would love to read Egwene's story written by Marion Zimmer Bradley.

 

EDITed to say that Superfade in the post above has provided another example of lack of basic realism in Egwene's arc. She could have won the debate without Elaida becoming basically a moronic lunatic.

[Erunion]

@SuperFade

 

Wasn't Elaida drunk during that particular debate? Not obviously so, but I was pretty sure there was significant mention of wine-jugs/cups + Elaida did act a little... Off. But I don't think it was bad writing, I think it was Elaida's mistake of counting her chickens before they were hatched, and starting the party a little bit early. A party that involved a significant amount of intoxicants on her part.

[Guest PiotrekS]

@SuperFade

 

Wasn't Elaida drunk during that particular debate? Not obviously so, but I was pretty sure there was significant mention of wine-jugs/cups + Elaida did act a little... Off. But I don't think it was bad writing, I think it was Elaida's mistake of counting her chickens before they were hatched, and starting the party a little bit early. A party that involved a significant amount of intoxicants on her part.

 

Whether she was only dumb and crazy or dumb, crazy and drunk doesn't change that fact that the way she was portrayed, a five year old could win a debate with her.

 

Moreover, she was the only drunk Aes Sedai mentioned in the books.

 

Elaida in EotW was a stern and forceful person, cold, unkind, proud and severe, but not this pathetic creature from TGS. Fain alone can't explain this - look at Pedron Niall, he didn't become a similar wretch after being touched by Fain.

[SuperFade]

Wasn't Elaida drunk during that particular debate? Not obviously so, but I was pretty sure there was significant mention of wine-jugs/cups + Elaida did act a little... Off. But I don't think it was bad writing, I think it was Elaida's mistake of counting her chickens before they were hatched, and starting the party a little bit early. A party that involved a significant amount of intoxicants on her part.

 

Haha, I never thought about it that way.

 

Seriously though, I thought that scene was weird from the very first time I read it. I have no problems with Elaida flipping out and showing how incompetant she is. The problem is, to me, that the debate was ridiculously one sided. After all the buildup, I was expecting the battle of wits to be a real struggle for Egwene, and that she would have to use all her skills and determination to pull off a hard won victory. Instead we have a one sided curb stomp in Egwene's favour where she effortlessly shreds all of Elaida's arguments, with the latter putting up flismy defenses at best and very overtly changing tack whenever Egwene makes a good point.

 

I was hoping for a Rand vs. Rahvin style confrontation, where both sides would use all their power and knowledge in a climactic battle with the winner having to struggle greatly for their victory. Elaida made the entire tower her bitch for over a year, but loses all her skill when Egwene comes knocking.

[David Selig]

What I disliked most about TGS is how Elaida suddenly turned into a drooling moron as soon as Egwene confronted her. The whole debate just seemed kinda off to me, with Elaida overtly grasping at straws the whole time and very obviously attempting to change the subject whenever Egwene made a point. Despite her megalomania and Fain's influence I expected her to be much more subtle and quick witted than she actually was.

Elaida was really, really stupid way before this confrontation. After all we are talking about the woman who started building a huge palace for herself even though she knew the Last battle was coming any time now. She also wanted to have Gawyn killed despite her own Foretelling that the Royal Line of Andor would be crucial in the Last Battle. Not to mention that she let Egwene go around almost everywhere in the Tower and report everything she saw to the rebels despite knowing about her Dreamwalking ability from Beonin. There are so many other examples of her stupidity, I never expected her to be quick-witted at any moment, especially when her pride and sense of self-importance was challenged.

 

Though if we want to bash Egwene on a more meta level, a reasonable case can be made that making Elaida a compete idiot was the only way to make Egwene's rise to the Amyrlin of the united Tower and especially the "corrupting from inside" plotline in the KoD and TGS somewhat plausible.

[SuperFade]

True enough, Elaida has made a number of very questionable (To put things lightly) decisions over the course of the novels. Even so, she was a strong Amyrlin who had the Tower by the throat. She has been Aes Sedai for decades and has been presented as cunning and devious even despite her arrogance since New Spring. I'm reading the scene now and Elaida fails to make even one comeback that doesn't come off as overt and clumsy evasion. I think it diminishes the awesome moment where Egwene finally puts Elaida down, since it could have been a really interesting and close-run event rather than the effortless victory it actually was.

[Luckystrike]

Seems to me that people hate Egwene because she's arrogant and hypocritical? You hate the characters because she has irritating flaws?

 

Well, I didn't like her that much before before TSR. But I began to like her when she was with the Aiel and loved her when she became Amyrlin.

 

I loved her for her arrogance. I actually like arrogance. It makes an interesting character, in my opinion.

Yes, I dislike characters that have irritating flaws and that I can't identify with. Arrogance disgusts me, and hypocrites disgust me. Practice what you preach and never presume you're better than someone else has always been the way I lived, so I find characters that embody those traits in books to be annoying to the extreme.

 

 

That's what makes them human, right? If every character was badass and had some "cool" or "meh"-flaws they wouldn't be interesting. They have to be somewhat f'cked up to be interesting.

[Sleeper]

Seems to me that people hate Egwene because she's arrogant and hypocritical? You hate the characters because she has irritating flaws?

 

Well, I didn't like her that much before before TSR. But I began to like her when she was with the Aiel and loved her when she became Amyrlin.

 

I loved her for her arrogance. I actually like arrogance. It makes an interesting character, in my opinion.

Yes, I dislike characters that have irritating flaws and that I can't identify with. Arrogance disgusts me, and hypocrites disgust me. Practice what you preach and never presume you're better than someone else has always been the way I lived, so I find characters that embody those traits in books to be annoying to the extreme.

 

 

That's what makes them human, right? If every character was badass and had some "cool" or "meh"-flaws they wouldn't be interesting. They have to be somewhat f'cked up to be interesting.

Absolutely, that's what makes them human. And just like I don't like every human being on earth, I don't like every character in a series of books The part about me identifying with them is the more important part of my previous statement. Pretty much all the characters in WoT have flaws, but only some of them have flaws that I can understand and empathize with.

 

She's interesting for sure, but I still dislike her.

 

Best example of a very interesting f'cked up character is Thomas Covenant. His stories were fascinating because I could understand his pain and sympathize for him. That's why I liked him as as character. He was a despicable person, but I liked to read him.

 

I don't get that feeling with Egwene.

[Luckystrike]

Seems to me that people hate Egwene because she's arrogant and hypocritical? You hate the characters because she has irritating flaws?

 

Well, I didn't like her that much before before TSR. But I began to like her when she was with the Aiel and loved her when she became Amyrlin.

 

I loved her for her arrogance. I actually like arrogance. It makes an interesting character, in my opinion.

Yes, I dislike characters that have irritating flaws and that I can't identify with. Arrogance disgusts me, and hypocrites disgust me. Practice what you preach and never presume you're better than someone else has always been the way I lived, so I find characters that embody those traits in books to be annoying to the extreme.

 

 

That's what makes them human, right? If every character was badass and had some "cool" or "meh"-flaws they wouldn't be interesting. They have to be somewhat f'cked up to be interesting.

Absolutely, that's what makes them human. And just like I don't like every human being on earth, I don't like every character in a series of books The part about me identifying with them is the more important part of my previous statement. Pretty much all the characters in WoT have flaws, but only some of them have flaws that I can understand and empathize with.

 

She's interesting for sure, but I still dislike her.

 

Best example of a very interesting f'cked up character is Thomas Covenant. His stories were fascinating because I could understand his pain and sympathize for him. That's why I liked him as as character. He was a despicable person, but I liked to read him.

 

I don't get that feeling with Egwene.

 

I understand disliking a character in that way; but when I read here on the forums that some characters should be killed off or in some way not be in WoT because of that, I get a little irritated (not saying you do, just generally).

 

But I see your point, and you clearly see mine. I do get that feeling with Egwene, but to each his own. ;)

[Suttree]

Brandon actually commented that Egwene was mostly RJ in TGS. I think it's on the Egwene page (interview database).

 

 

Looks like i was right (i am seldom wrong) Sanderson cannot write egwene. Just like he can't write mat or aviendha. Not his fault i suppose but it just shows that gap in story telling between robert jordan and BS not to mention the lack of consistency.

 

While I doubt it will change your opinion, I think it's highly improbable that the living person best able to determine whether or not a character is 'in-character' or written correctly is you, and not Harriet(who has no known issues with how BS is writing the series, and given that she is the editor, I highly doubt she has any issues with it).

 

Because there have always been such great calls made!?!?(See Mat in the Seven Striped Lass)BS has had difficulty at times hitting the mark, that can't be disputed.

[Phariah]

Moiraine brought Egwene because that was the sensible thing to do at the time. She wanted to come, she had an incredible potential in the One Power, which made her highly valuable for an Aes Sedai, and by taking her with them Moiraine solved the problem of keeping their departure covert.

 

Exactly right, both in the case of the original departure from EF and in the case of Loial's objection later.

 

 

Brandon actually commented that Egwene was mostly RJ in TGS. I think it's on the Egwene page (interview database).

Looks like i was right (i am seldom wrong) Sanderson cannot write egwene. Just like he can't write mat or aviendha. Not his fault i suppose but it just shows that gap in story telling between robert jordan and BS not to mention the lack of consistency.

While I doubt it will change your opinion, I think it's highly improbable that the living person best able to determine whether or not a character is 'in-character' or written correctly is you, and not Harriet(who has no known issues with how BS is writing the series, and given that she is the editor, I highly doubt she has any issues with it).

I fail to see why Harriet's opinion on this should automatically be considered more valid than Elan Tedronai's, or anyone elses.

 

 

To say something a little different to the usual run of Egwene threads, I would just like to point out that Egwene is arguably more heroic than Rand. Allow me to explain: Rand was forced into a bad situation. So was Mat, so was Perrin. They are ta'veren, the Pattern bends around them. They are forced by the Wheel to take on specific roles, which they can't really run from. They didn't choose them. As was pointed out in TGS, they might not have control over what they do, but they do over why. They are, therefore, simply constrained to make the best of a bad situation. Egwene, on the other hand, chose to become AS, chose to study with the Aiel, chose not to simply be a puppet of the Hall and to assert herself. She is, therefore, someone who chose to put herself into a bad situation. Rand had to be forced into his role, Egwene didn't. To put it another way, which would you consider to be more heroic: someone who is trapped in a burning building and rescues someone they stumble across on their way out, or someone who enters a burning building deliberately, and with the intention of saving someone? Rand is the former, Egwene is the latter.

who is to say she chose anything. why couldn't she be pulled into the weaving of the pattern around Rand. she needed to be put on the right path. she joins Rand who happens to have Moraine there to help her when she starts to channel. she happens to be in the stone of tear where she finds out about DreamWalkers. she happens to be out of the WT when rebellion happens thus she cannot be tied to either faction, and so can be a good candidate for Amryllin. Perrin, Mat, Rand all have choices. they seen the results of those other choices when they did the direct travel using the portal stone. Egwene was set on her path not done by choice.

Who is to say Egwene chose anything? By the same token, who is to say she didn't? Her choices could all be the result of ta'maral'ailen, but is there any evidence to suggest that is the case?

pretty much one word, Loial. he was brought into Rand's weaving and it is confirmed by the Elder in the stedding. Rand need's Egwene in a certain position later on to help him. the pattern set her on the path needed. Taveren get what they need not what they want. the whole series is proof. i don't see anything to say she wasn't wrapped up into Rand's taveren nature. as Moraine said the Pattern willed it. tEotW pb page 142.

Lan " no Moraine!"

Mor "it is part of the Pattern,now, Lan."

Lan "it is ridiculous! there is no reason for her to come along, and every reason for her not to."

Mor "there is a reason for it. a part of the Pattern, Lan."

 

 

Uhhh no. It was her power potential as an AS and to keep the trip quiet around the TRs that made Moraine decide to bring her.

 

Edit: David beat me to the punch...

uhhh no. Aes Sedai cannot lie. she states plainly "it is part of the Pattern."

the TR would know what has happened soon enough. they could have tied her up in the stalls or wrapped her in a weave that would unravel ina set amount of time. Moraine had many options to deal with her. she has the Dragon Reborn w/ her. what is a young woman that can channel compared to that. why risk themselves bringing her along when Mor an Lan came to the TR to get the Dragon and not channellers? don't make any sense except for that one statement she makes that it is the pattern. it is what first brought Egwene into noticing them preparing thier leaving. the most sensible thing to have done would be to not take her and risk her life knowing they will be hunted by DF and trollocs. sensible thing would be to tie her up in the stall and leave her to be found.

[Mongoose]

I agree about Nynaeve, I didn't like her much at first either. My opinion changed when she brained Moggy. That made my day.