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DRAGONMOUNT

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The Dragon Vs. The Amyrlin


Barid Bel Medar
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  1. 1. Who's side would you take at the FoM?



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Alright, a simple question.

 

Who would you side with?

 

Would you side with the Dragon? Prophesied to break the seals of the DO's prison ?

 

Or the Amyrlin? On the side of caution not wanting to break the seals.

 

 

Personally, its a no brainer for me. Rand 100%. No matter how well reasoned Egwene rationalizes her arguemets, the fact is, Rand has to break the seals. Multiple prophecies say this, so I would trust Rand 100% in this.

 

I can however, see why some might choose the other side. Egwene wants to wait and plan. Fair enough, she has no idea what is going down. Also, Rand hasnt figured out his end game yet.

 

Not only regarding the breaking of the seals, but Egwene and Rand will definitely clash in other areas. The Black Tower and bonded Aes Sedai. The control of the LB. (All indications Egwene wants Rand to "submit to the tower's guidance" Whatever that may mean. They may even disagree with the Dragon's Peace. As it includes the Seanchan. Egwene will be against any treaty with the Seanchan.

 

Now, lets look at the division of the FoM.

 

 

For Rand: Borderlanders. Perrin (geledean, whitecloaks TRs.) Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Moiraine(almost certainly) Black Tower/ Asha'man (if it gets liberated. If not, he at least has Logain's moral support along with other Asha'man he has with him) Mat( probably). Arad Doman. Dragonsworn. Aiel.

 

For Egwene: The White Tower. Andor.

 

Undecided: Cairhien (even though elayne is now queen, Dobraine and others are more loyal to Rand) Tear (I doubt Darlin would go against Rand, but who knows) Illian. Seanchan (definitely NOT siding with egwene and the marath damane.) Murandy (unknown) Far Madding (?)

 

 

So far it seems Rand has the bulk of support.

 

Anyway, to the question. Who would you support at the FoM? Rand or Egwene?

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Rand FTW for sure, but Eggy has more support than just WT and Andor.. We dont know how the borderlanders will fall. They probably have sworn to Rand but that does'nt mean they support his decision to break the seals.. and then we have no idea where the seanchan will fall, Illian is under rand as he is the king there, I doubt if Eggy is unable to sway Darlin she will be able to sway the steward of Illian under Rand, but its a matter of opinion and if it comes to that she has a big group of people who think its a bad idea to break the seals.

 

We can't forget the wise one's. They think its a bad idea. Darlin too thinks it is a bad idea in the letter he wrote to Eggy. Elayne ofcourse is on WT's side. For the moment the real support for rand looks like Perrin, Nyn and maybe Cadsuane.

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Anyone else find it funny that Egwene is "The Watcher of the Seals. The Flame of Tar Valon. The Amyrlin Seat" and Rand is "The Breaker of Bonds. The Bringer of Suffering to the World. The Dragon Reborn"?

 

 

Anyways, is this assuming we are readers or is this assuming we are in-universe? As a reader I agree with Rand's decision, but were I a character I'd definitely side with Egwene.

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From an in book perspective, what you see as a normal person is mass starvation, war and instability. (Not to mention what must be the worst of all, the bubbles of evil and walking dead) If I were in book, I would be looking for something to happen fast, because in a few more months everyone will just starve to death and not have to worry about the DO coming out and destroying the world. So if I'm sitting their going, where will tomorrow's meal come from for my kids, do I really care if Rand breaks the seals today rather then 2 months from now? If he waits, my kids die from starvation, if he does it w/o a plan, they MIGHT die along with the rest of the world OR he may remove the DO's influence and make it so everything goes back to normal. I say this because this is just the way the series reads to me, I have often wondered how they will survive to the last battle becuase things have been written to be so dire. I know in ToM Rand is helping with this some, but he can't be everywhere all the time to help grow apples and make sure grain in bags is not spoiled. With the lack of much true crop growth and the mass spoiling, there just can't be much of anything left. So, as a starving WoT peasant, I say, BREAK THE DAMNED SEALS already DR!!!

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Well, do we absolutely know Rand doesn't have a plan? I read that whole sequence as him manipulating her into putting together a coalition - if that is in fact the case, it certainly seems he has a plan, and even if that wasn't his goal, he still manipulated her to some purpose.

 

So unless he's just decided to F*** with her head, he's got something in mind.

 

We do however, know for a fact that Egwene's entire plan is just to stop Rand.

 

Maybe if he'd told her his plan, she wouldn't have done what he wanted her to do.

 

Just a thought.

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Egwenes side, until Rand comes up with an actual plan what to do once he has broken the seals, instead of just hoping everything will be fine.

Rands side. until Egwene comes up with an actual plan what to do, instead of just watching and playing politics while the world burns.

 

What exactly is Egwene's side (not clear on that)? Watch the seals some more and hope that reality stops unravelling and that people can actually start growing food again?

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Right, Egwene does not have a plan. Which is exactly why she opposes Rands idea to just storm off and hope for the best. Both Sun Tzu and Clausewitz would be on Egwenes side.

 

Actually from a military standpoint, if you know your defenses are failing (and Rand knows the seals are failing,) and you can't repair them, it's better to control the damage and choose where and how the battle happens than it is to sit behind your crumbling defenses and cede that advantage to your enemy.

 

Rand doesn't know exactly when the seals will fail, by breaking them on his time line, he retains some control over their failure.

Edited by Dbob
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Well, do we absolutely know Rand doesn't have a plan? I read that whole sequence as him manipulating her into putting together a coalition - if that is in fact the case, it certainly seems he has a plan, and even if that wasn't his goal, he still manipulated her to some purpose.

 

So unless he's just decided to F*** with her head, he's got something in mind.

 

We do however, know for a fact that Egwene's entire plan is just to stop Rand.

 

Maybe if he'd told her his plan, she wouldn't have done what he wanted her to do.

 

Just a thought.

 

Yes, we know he does not have a plan, since we later see him tell Min to figure out what he is supposed to do.

 

Actually from a military standpoint, if you know your defenses are failing (and Rand knows the seals are failing,) and you can't repair them, it's better to control the damage and choose where and how the battle happens than it is to sit behind your crumbling defenses and cede that advantage to your enemy.

Rand doesn't know exactly when the seals will fail, by breaking them on his time line, he retains some control over their failure.

 

 

If that had been Rands main concern, why take 30 days to run around the world playing Superman? He was simply 100% sure that it was perfectly safe to wait another 30 days, but day 31 might be dangerous?

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Well, do we absolutely know Rand doesn't have a plan? I read that whole sequence as him manipulating her into putting together a coalition - if that is in fact the case, it certainly seems he has a plan, and even if that wasn't his goal, he still manipulated her to some purpose.

 

So unless he's just decided to F*** with her head, he's got something in mind.

 

We do however, know for a fact that Egwene's entire plan is just to stop Rand.

 

Maybe if he'd told her his plan, she wouldn't have done what he wanted her to do.

 

Just a thought.

 

Yes, we know he does not have a plan, since we later see him tell Min to figure out what he is supposed to do.

 

Actually from a military standpoint, if you know your defenses are failing (and Rand knows the seals are failing,) and you can't repair them, it's better to control the damage and choose where and how the battle happens than it is to sit behind your crumbling defenses and cede that advantage to your enemy.

Rand doesn't know exactly when the seals will fail, by breaking them on his time line, he retains some control over their failure.

 

 

If that had been Rands main concern, why take 30 days to run around the world playing Superman? He was simply 100% sure that it was perfectly safe to wait another 30 days, but day 31 might be dangerous?

 

 

With regards to Min, he's already said as much to Egwene that he needs the women, so obviously he's not floundering in the dark - he has some idea of what went wrong, or maybe he's pushing her to do what he needs her to do. Anyway there's more to consider than solely the sealing of the bore. He STILL manipulated Egwene to some purpose - why did he do that? He even says later that she did exactly what he thought she'd do. He isn't acting like a guy with no idea what he's going to do next, and frankly if you think he is, we'll just have to disagree.

 

In regards to my second post, that was more about the idea that military geniuses would agree with Egwene, when in fact, I can't think of a single military genius that might agree that sitting behind your crumbling walls waiting for them to fail is any kind of strategy at all.

 

Nor did I read Rand as running around playing "superman," to no purpose. Why bother? Kicks? Ego? Why not just sit in the stone fiddling with your Dragon Scepter?

 

I think that the charge that Rand is just winging it is way overstated. The only way I can think that someone insists that he's not thinking ahead, is because of this argument, and they like her more than I do.

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I'm going with Rand here, purely because in terms of prophecy, he's doing pretty well on the scoreboard. Plus, he's the Dragon, the real Dragon and nothing but a full-memoried Dragon. So we all forget, he's been through similar, he certainly knows more than Egwene about what he did the last time and why it went wrong.

 

Sorry, there's just too much evidence to point at Rand being right. And (as much as I hate her), Egwene may very well turn around and go, "oh, you're right" when he explains all this... She's only saying no now, because she hasn't got a clue what he is now, and if he has a plan.

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Hmmmm Rand, the Dragon Reborn, with all Lews Therins memories or a jumped up little brat who puts her own little organisation ahead of the welfare of the world? No contest; RAND! Let's hope he, or someone else, really humbles/shames Egwene in the final book. Let's hope Perrin making her look like a chump in TAR, which she thought she ruled, was just the beginning!

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I have to say, I agree with Majsju. Rand plans to break the seals, but he doesn't know what to do after that. He has, at best, a vague idea. Now, I accept the reasoning that the seals must be broken at some point, but clearing the rubble before you can rebuild does not mean clearing the rubble itself is enough. Bear in mind, Rand plans to release Shai'tan, and has no plans on how to reimprison him. While Egwene's focus on stopping Rand rather than coming up with an actual plan might be lamentable, it is not so severe a failure as Rand's. Come up with a plan, then destroy the seals.

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Am I an Ashaman? If so, id follow Rand completely. All male channelers are pretty much in debt to Rand/Nynaeve for cleansing the taint, so id follow him in a heart beat. Id already be dead/mad anyways without him, might as well go down swinging. Even when he failed, he still sealed the bore. Not forever though. Plus, if he fails and the men all go mad, the White Tower will love being in charge again; hunting down men.

 

Even simple farmers have shown up to support Rand. Fair enough to say if you were a farmer you'd probably support Rand too. You'd know that your family is starving and this is the only chance to save them.

 

Normal soldier? Well that really just depends whose army your apart of. But I really don't see Darlin backing Egwene. He'll probably just want to discuss what else can be done. I also think Elayne will also end up supporting Rand too.(Either way she will be pulled away from the Fields to save her city) It may end up being Egwene and the Tower as the only ones who dont support Rand. At least he will have female channelers this time. I cant see the Wise ones abandoning him and letting him go alone. Thats why I dont see him really needing the Towers help this time. Cads and her entourage/Nynaeve/Alivia/Moiraine/Hundreds of Wise Ones are more then enough female channelers. Heck, if he gets the Seanchan on board..

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I think everyone's hatred of Egwene and knowledge here really overshadows how they would think in the position of a character.

Breaking the seals is a terrifying prospect, the dark one being free etc is the stuff of nightmares.

Rand has no plan that we know. Nor does Egwene. However, Egwene's position leaves time to plan, that's rather the point.

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You guys are looking at this wrong.

 

For a denizen of Randland, this isn't a debate between two characters, or two political figures, or two random people from the same small village.

 

This is a debate between the living embodiment of their metaphysics (a metaphysics they KNOW to be true, objectively, not just believe to be true) and the head of a very important but decidedly earthly institution.

 

This is a debate, in essence, about how to defeat Satan. And the two players are the Second Coming of Jesus, and the Pope.

 

Now, if you KNEW, objectively, from you own observation, that Christian metaphysics were TRUE. If you KNEW that that fellow over there really was the Son of God, returned to save the world from Satan. If this weren't a question of belief, but one of objective truth...

 

Would you line up with Jesus, or with Pope Benedict?

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Rand has a plan, in fact he has everything covered except the most important part: he has no idea how to create a better seal for the DO. The problem is you really can't blame him for this, since the best of the best in the AOL failed miserably to come up with a way to do so. Him going to Shayol Ghul without a plan of how to create the seal may not be wise, but he has to do so before the world is so corrupted by the DO's touch it simply falls apart when he tries.

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Guest PiotrekS

Randsc, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Unfortunately, I don't think RJ\BS looked at it in that way. Remember, we have to deal with gender politics, which have a big role in entire WOT. Therefore, we have men and women, WT and BT, Lews Therin and Latra Posae and finally-Rand and Egwene. The symmetry between Rand's and Egwene's plotlines that became very strong in TGS will IMO find its culmination in the Last Battle, where they both will play decisive roles. I don't like it at all- I think Egwene doesn't deserve and isn't prepared to play such a role, since her plotline until ToM focused very much on her own personal career and not on the fight with the Dark One. I don't like it, but I think that's what is going to happen anyway.

I would side with Rand and oppose Egwene because of WHO they are. Their objective arguments about the breaking of the seals are evenly matched in my opinion and I think that this ambiguity is what RJ and Brandon were going for, so everybody would have to pick sides and there would be no clear "good" and "bad" choices.

 

EDIT: I've just had an idea about how to seal the Bore. Rand can do exactly the same as he did in the AoL, buing humanity another few thousand years. Then all male channelers taking part in the sealing would have to be immediately stilled and healed of the madness by Nynaeve. Then it would suffice to get hold of Padan Fain and his misty friend Mashadar, build another Choden Kal and cleanse the Taint again. Healing stilled male channelers would complete the process :biggrin:

Edited by PiotrekS
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You guys are looking at this wrong.

 

For a denizen of Randland, this isn't a debate between two characters, or two political figures, or two random people from the same small village.

 

This is a debate between the living embodiment of their metaphysics (a metaphysics they KNOW to be true, objectively, not just believe to be true) and the head of a very important but decidedly earthly institution.

 

This is a debate, in essence, about how to defeat Satan. And the two players are the Second Coming of Jesus, and the Pope.

 

Now, if you KNEW, objectively, from you own observation, that Christian metaphysics were TRUE. If you KNEW that that fellow over there really was the Son of God, returned to save the world from Satan. If this weren't a question of belief, but one of objective truth...

 

Would you line up with Jesus, or with Pope Benedict?

 

 

oh dear.now i know where the loyalty comes from.

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Rand seems to still think Lews Therin was right last time, and that a saidin/saidar seal could fix the Bore. The problem is, we know (via Jordan) that this is wrong. We also have the diegetic evidence of Lews Therin and Latra Posae themselves: unless Latra Posae was herself ta'veren, then it was the Dragon's ta'veren effect which saved him from his own folly by uniting every single one of the millions of saidar channelers against him.

 

Should Rand break the seals? Sure, that will likely be necessary. But until Rand gets a plan less likely to result in the extermination of the human race at the very least, he should calm down and think instead of behaving in such a manic fashion.

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Rand seems to still think Lews Therin was right last time, and that a saidin/saidar seal could fix the Bore. The problem is, we know (via Jordan) that this is wrong. We also have the diegetic evidence of Lews Therin and Latra Posae themselves: unless Latra Posae was herself ta'veren, then it was the Dragon's ta'veren effect which saved him from his own folly by uniting every single one of the millions of saidar channelers against him.

actually i believe jordan wasnt as direct on this issue as you think. ill have to find the quote but he basically said if female channelers had been part of it they would of been tainted too but right after he says the tainting was made possible by a very narrow set of conditions.

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Personally, if I were a denizen of Randland, I'd be scared shitless by Rand's suggestion. But if I tried to look at it objectively, I might change my mind. The assumption here is that Rand was being vague, not telling me everything. As in, there was more to it than "I'm gonna break the seals, just cuzz..." Also, making the assumption that there was a point to the monthly delay- that the interim period would be used to make arrangements. And that the gathering of an audience would serve as the point when the details of the plan would be elucidated, to all, at once.

Also, in terms of sheer credibility in such matters, The Dragon Reborn is nonpareil.

I think Egwene freaking out and gathering forces is fairly predictable. If her internal monologue was more like "I need to have support, just in case his plan is rubbish," as oppossed to "He is mad, I will stop him with force," maybe I would be more sympathetic, as a reader.

 

 

You guys are looking at this wrong.

 

For a denizen of Randland, this isn't a debate between two characters, or two political figures, or two random people from the same small village.

 

This is a debate between the living embodiment of their metaphysics (a metaphysics they KNOW to be true, objectively, not just believe to be true) and the head of a very important but decidedly earthly institution.

 

This is a debate, in essence, about how to defeat Satan. And the two players are the Second Coming of Jesus, and the Pope.

 

Now, if you KNEW, objectively, from you own observation, that Christian metaphysics were TRUE. If you KNEW that that fellow over there really was the Son of God, returned to save the world from Satan. If this weren't a question of belief, but one of objective truth...

 

Would you line up with Jesus, or with Pope Benedict?

 

 

oh dear.now i know where the loyalty comes from.

 

It is a very apt analogy. Do you genuinely not see their positions as approximately similar in the WoT cosmology, or are you being disingenuous for the sake of rhetoric to an end that I can't seem to grasp?

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