The Dragon Vs. The Amyrlin

[moratcorlm]

What basis do we have for believing Rand has special knowledge (I assuming we are defining "special" as meaning, "knowledge not available to other characters?)? It seems to me that the books may have mentioned, once or twice, a 400 year old Aes Sedai with direct personal experience with confronting the Dark One, now resident in Rand's head.

It might be better to define it as 'useful knowledge not available to other characters', perhaps?

What basis do we have for believing him to be a "specially privileged actor?" Other than 3000 years of prophecy, now fulfilled, that say so?

 

Many other characters will make important, even vital, contributions to the defeat of the Dark One. But as far as we know, ONE character is essential to that effort.

I see nothing in the prophecies specifically about the Last Battle that preclude Elaida's, or Tuon's, interpretation of 'lead the sacrifice out and bleed him to death on the rocks of Shayol Ghul.' Absolutely Rand will be essential to the victory; how that makes him an actor is another question. Now, I don't claim that Rand will be entirely incidental to the Light's victory, but my point is there's no reason to say he'll be the alpha and omega to it, either.

[randsc]

We'll just have to read and find out, won't we? I would be willing to wager a considerable sum that Rand turns out to be an actor, not a blood sacrifice.

 

In any case, that's irrelevent to the question of this thread. Rand is going to break the seals. He may, if he gets his price (presuambly the Dragon's Peace) go to fight the Dark One.

 

If he doesn't, the world ends.

 

One of the things we saw in the last book is that many people in world apparently believe that victory under some circumstances would be worse than defeat (which I think is idiotic, given that defeat means the unraveling of the universe itself, but they believe it).

 

Well, Rand apparently believes the same thing. And so he has a price for fighting this fight, and likely dying in the process.

[Mandro]

The messianic aspects, like the sun appearing once rand completed the transition in VoG aren't unique to rand. Note that there are 3 places where food either does or doesn't spoil (actually four, but that is an answer that hasn't been given) and that is around Rand, Matt and Perrin, there is actually an insinuation in ToM when Perrin is collecting new followers. I think that in LoC the "unleash the balefire" thing is what is allowing for the bubles of chaos. The Ta'Verin (sorry for spelling) have to find a way to not just shape the pattern, but find HOW they shape the pattern, I think all 3 succeeded in that. Rand with VoG and Matt in the Tower of Ghenji (thus owens winning snakes and foxes) and Perrin when he accepted being a lord when he forged mjolinar. Rand Tyr, Matt oden, Perrin Thor.

 

Food spoils around Perrin; it may be spoiling around Mat, if Mat were left to his own devices, but he was in the vicinity of Elayne for most of TOM. I think that I recall food spoiling around Mat in either TOM or TGS, but since I can't find a page and I can't recall exactly where, I'm going to attribute lack of spoilage around Mat to the combined effect of Mat and Elayne both being present.

 

[Faile] noted with displeasure the bunch of wild scallions beside the pathway had spoiled in the moments since she'd seen them last, their stalks melted and runny, as if they'd been rotting in the sun for weeks. These spoilings had begun only recently inside of camp, but by reports, it happened far more frequently out in the countryside.

Towers of Midnight, page 234.

 

While Perrin appears to reduce the ability of the Dark One to take action against the world directly through spoilage, he doesn't appear to stop it entirely. Additionally, he isn't causing the clouds to break, trees to bloom, etc. Neither is Mat. The way that I interpret it is that Perrin is able to keep things normal through luck working in his favor; Rand is actively bending the Pattern towards the best possible outcomes via his presence.

 

There is one additional case that's slightly puzzling, the sunshine and good food found on page 509 and 510 of TOM. While the good food is attributed to being from Caemlyn, that doesn't explain the sunshine; the easiest explanation is that while the women are having their conversation, Rand is puttering about somewhere in Tar Valon. An alternative is Nynaeve's strengthened commitment to her ideals over her idols is giving her the same cloud-breaking and light strengthening power Rand and his women have,

 

I also said that the pattern was waiting for the taveren to know HOW they were supposed to serve the pattern. Perrin and mat and rand all had food spoil, but once they found their place, the pattern righted itself.

[Mr Ares]

You guys are looking at this wrong.

 

For a denizen of Randland, this isn't a debate between two characters, or two political figures, or two random people from the same small village.

 

This is a debate between the living embodiment of their metaphysics (a metaphysics they KNOW to be true, objectively, not just believe to be true) and the head of a very important but decidedly earthly institution.

 

This is a debate, in essence, about how to defeat Satan. And the two players are the Second Coming of Jesus, and the Pope.

 

Now, if you KNEW, objectively, from you own observation, that Christian metaphysics were TRUE. If you KNEW that that fellow over there really was the Son of God, returned to save the world from Satan. If this weren't a question of belief, but one of objective truth...

 

Would you line up with Jesus, or with Pope Benedict?

Well, if the Pope asked Jesus what his plan was to defeat Satan, and Jesus admitted he didn't have one, and hoped things would work out for the best, and the Pope said that maybe he should wait until he had a plan, I would admit the Pope had a point and side with him.

No, you wouldn't. If you did, you don't believe in Christian metaphysics. And in WOT-world, they KNOW their metaphysics to be true.

Well, I don't believe in Christian metaphysics. But my point stands, if the Pope asked Christ to wait until he had a plan, I would admit he had a point. And I'm no big fan of the Pope. Of course, there was that bit in the Bible where Satan said to Jesus that if he threw himself off a roof, God would send angels to make sure he came to no harm, and Christ said he wasn't going to test the Lord God. If he went into a situation with no plan, banking on His Almighty Father to save Him, He might well end up coming to a sticky end. So, the Bible supports coming up with a plan. Rand is not infallible. He might try and fail, he might try and succeed. He is necessary for success, but no-one is saying Rand should do nothing at all. If having a plan increases Rand's chances of success, then he should have a plan. Crossing your fingers and hoping for the best seems very unwise. Now, Egwene certainly isn't perfect. But then, she isn't the one who intends to unleash a universe destroying God with no clear idea of how to lock him up agains afterwards - Rand is.

 

 

You guys are looking at this wrong.

 

For a denizen of Randland, this isn't a debate between two characters, or two political figures, or two random people from the same small village.

 

This is a debate between the living embodiment of their metaphysics (a metaphysics they KNOW to be true, objectively, not just believe to be true) and the head of a very important but decidedly earthly institution.

 

This is a debate, in essence, about how to defeat Satan. And the two players are the Second Coming of Jesus, and the Pope.

 

Now, if you KNEW, objectively, from you own observation, that Christian metaphysics were TRUE. If you KNEW that that fellow over there really was the Son of God, returned to save the world from Satan. If this weren't a question of belief, but one of objective truth...

 

Would you line up with Jesus, or with Pope Benedict?

Well, if the Pope asked Jesus what his plan was to defeat Satan, and Jesus admitted he didn't have one, and hoped things would work out for the best, and the Pope said that maybe he should wait until he had a plan, I would admit the Pope had a point and side with him.

But, how does waiting help? Right now, reality itself is failing and the world is starting to starve and die (look at Apples First chapter to see the despair in the populace). Waiting is a death sentence for millions of your troops. Acting now, even with imperfect information, is far more preferable. And, the Jesus asked the Pope to plan for him ("that is why I came to you. To let you plan."), but, instead, she just spent the time raising armies against him.

She did plan, she planned to stop him doing something insanely reckless. Waiting too long is a death sentence, but waiting long enough to come up with a plan isn't. It increases your chances of survival.

 

Hello everyone this is my first post so hopefully it won't be too bad. I would side with Rand. There are some valid points on the other side of the debate, but in the end it comes down to trusting the man destined to save the world or not. He was literally born to do this. In addition, he has access to his past life and greater knowledge. This is a war and every war needs a leader. You can debate, but eventually you have to act and in a unified matter so I would side with the Dragon.

 

Also, if I remember correctly, breaking the seals will not fully release the Dark One. Even when the seals were first placed on the Bore, he was not free. I think that removing the seals would leave him at that point. Sure he will have more direct influence, but he would still not be free. The seals are failing anyway. Soon, they will not work. Like it was said before on here it is better to fight at a time of your choosing.

While it is Rand's job to save the world, he is not all-knowing, still less is he infallible. It is not unreasonable to expect him to come up with a plan first. Leaders often do come up with plans, you know. As for fighting at a time of your choosing, look at it this way: you're under siege, your castle needs repairs done on the walls. You decide to tear them down (and it has to be done during the siege), but you admit you don't have a damn clue as to how to stop the enemy hordes flooding through the gap you've just created in your defences. Bad. Come up with a plan to hold them at bay before demolishing the wall. Good. Choosing when to fight is one thing, but you must also look at how to fight, and do so before the fight begins. Rand has chosen a when, but it still stumbling around in the dark for the how. Egwene is saying come up with a how.

Your analogy is close, but missing a couple of key factors. Add in 2 things... You are out of food and your troops are starving inside your castle and your walls are starting to fail now. The choice is to quietly starve and then watch the walls fall on their own, or to open the gates and launch an attack while your people are still strong enough. Neither option is very good, but the second one at least has a chance of success.

But the chance of success would be increased with a plan of battle, rather than just opening the gates and having everyone charge out willy-nilly, with no clear idea of what is to be done. I'm not saying "the seals should never be broken", I'm saying "breaking the seals with no plan is a huge risk, breaking them with a plan is still risky, but not as risky." Having a plan is less risky than having no plan, therefore they should have a plan.

 

Ironic that LTT seemed to be more reasonable back in AOL. He didnt go through with his plan until the access keys were lost and the light was losing the war.

 

Right now he wants to break the seals, start another war of power and figure out what to do from there. Sounds reasonable? i don't think so.

 

If someone was going to war without a plan on how to defeat his enemy, in any situation we would call that person a fool. Simple basic human understanding. But then again, the lord dragon and his followers have long surpassed the boundaries of common sense. It's more like 'Trust me, i know what i am doing right' because i am the saviour and the destined to save the world

 

There is two things here.

 

Rand either does not know or he does know but does not want to say it to egwene. Either way he can't be suprised by egwene's opposition.

What's foolish is hiding in your closet when your house in on fire.

Running around like a headless chicken might give you a better chance of survival than hiding in a closet, but trying to remember the best way out rather than just hoping you stumble across it in your blind panic is better still. This is not a case of break the seals or do nothing. There are more than two choices.

[Hopefire]

I dunno, I don't think Rand's girls have been clearly shown to have the power to prevent spoilage.

I'm not disagreeing with that.

 

Right now, for certain:

Rand: Causes trees to bloom, the sun to shine, and in his presence we have multiple cases of food being exceptional (the apples in the grove, Cadsuane's tea, the food in the Sea Folk ships holds).

 

Elayne: Generates region of sunlight as shown by Caemlyn. Potentially allows some amount of Rand's ability to cause growth, based on the rose gardens of the Royal Palace. Appears to do it more slowly than Rand does, as her arrival at FOM causes the clouds above to start to thin, but Rand's arrival causes them to split suddenly.

 

Min: Generates region of sunlight as shown by her first chapter in Tear. Presumably does it as well as Elayne does.

 

Aviendha: While not verified, presumable benefits from the same effect as Min and Elayne.

 

Mat: Is able to secure adequate food for his army. Is NOT able to cause sunlight.

 

Perrin: Is able to secure adequate food for his army. Does not prevent spoilage, but may reduce occurrences of spoilage. Is NOT able to cause sunlight.

 

Unknown Party in Tar Valon on page 509-510: Sunlight and good tasting food that came from Caemlyn. Either A) Rand was in Tar Valon at the time, B) Elayne has to some extent or another Rand's ability to make food taste good AND the sunlight was caused by Min, Aviendha or Elayne, or C) a third party was involved to clear things up and make things right (Nynaeve being my primary suspect).

[Hopefire]

 

I also said that the pattern was waiting for the taveren to know HOW they were supposed to serve the pattern. Perrin and mat and rand all had food spoil, but once they found their place, the pattern righted itself.

As I said, I've been unable to find a place where food spoils in Mat's presence; he has been near Elayne lately, which may indicate a confluence of effects. Perrin has had food spoil recently; you note that that was before he found his place. I don't dispute that the food spoilage noted around Perrin occurred before he found his place, but we also have no evidence that the problem stopped after he found his place.

 

It's a supposition that may be valid - just like the ideas that Egwene has gotten the Browns and Whites to look into the resealing problem, that Egwene has the entire Tower drilling and practicing battle techniques to prepare for the end, or that Rand figured out how to reseal the Bore during his month of puttering about might all be valid ideas. It could be the case, but we have no textual evidence that it's the case.

[Mandro]

Back in like '94 I would read the alt nets and one of them was a junior editor for Jordan. Jordan made clear that his goal was to manipulate several mythos, but that the hero (rand, because this was EOTW time) was definitely Norse. j

 

and that has been proven out. Perrin is Thor, with the hammer, the Lord of Battle , the lord of strife. Matt is Oden, the god of conquest, the one eyed god. and Rand is Tyr, the one handed god of single battle, who ultimately dies yet wins. As Rand dies the other two wil continu to battle the shadow, and until rand kills the enemy.

 

Really, I'm worried that Perrin will die, that is my big problem, I know some of the goodguys wil die, I just worry about which ones. I hope perring cranked faile full of baby makiers before he dies. Just to sub the nose of elaynes attitude. I am also confident that min is dead. Which I hate, she is one of the few women who didn't need redemption, Min was just a good character, but I think she will die without effort as did fel.

[Mandro]

 

I also said that the pattern was waiting for the taveren to know HOW they were supposed to serve the pattern. Perrin and mat and rand all had food spoil, but once they found their place, the pattern righted itself.

As I said, I've been unable to find a place where food spoils in Mat's presence; he has been near Elayne lately, which may indicate a confluence of effects. Perrin has had food spoil recently; you note that that was before he found his place. I don't dispute that the food spoilage noted around Perrin occurred before he found his place, but we also have no evidence that the problem stopped after he found his place.

 

It's a supposition that may be valid - just like the ideas that Egwene has gotten the Browns and Whites to look into the resealing problem, that Egwene has the entire Tower drilling and practicing battle techniques to prepare for the end, or that Rand figured out how to reseal the Bore during his month of puttering about might all be valid ideas. It could be the case, but we have no textual evidence that it's the case.

 

 

true I can't recall a case of food spoiling around matt. But it's hard to argue his affect, maybe it's matt's insoucience?

 

I thought you were saying no way for both matt and perrin, but good point on matt.

[randsc]

Rand: Causes trees to bloom, the sun to shine, and in his presence we have multiple cases of food being exceptional (the apples in the grove, Cadsuane's tea, the food in the Sea Folk ships holds).

 

True.

 

Elayne: Generates region of sunlight as shown by Caemlyn. Potentially allows some amount of Rand's ability to cause growth, based on the rose gardens of the Royal Palace. Appears to do it more slowly than Rand does, as her arrival at FOM causes the clouds above to start to thin, but Rand's arrival causes them to split suddenly.

 

That. we don't know. Rand's zen moment had world-wide (or at least very widespread, impact). Sun breaks through the clouds in the POVs of at least a couple of people not near Rand, geographically. We can show correlation between Elayne's arrival in Caemlyn and the clouds thinning, but not causation. It could be coincidence. Rand has his moment, clouds begin to thin and roll back, basically everywhere. He arrives somewhere in person, the process greatly accelerates.

 

Min: Generates region of sunlight as shown by her first chapter in Tear. Presumably does it as well as Elayne does.

 

Aviendha: While not verified, presumable benefits from the same effect as Min and Elayne.

 

Similarly, we don't know that either of these two "cause sunlight"

 

Mat: Is able to secure adequate food for his army. Is NOT able to cause sunlight.

 

Perrin: Is able to secure adequate food for his army. Does not prevent spoilage, but may reduce occurrences of spoilage. Is NOT able to cause sunlight.

 

Both other ta'veren seem to have the ability to protect food from spoilage in their immediate (very immediate, scallions are spoiling IN Perrin's camp) vicinities.

 

Unknown Party in Tar Valon on page 509-510: Sunlight and good tasting food that came from Caemlyn. Either A) Rand was in Tar Valon at the time, B) Elayne has to some extent or another Rand's ability to make food taste good AND the sunlight was caused by Min, Aviendha or Elayne, or C) a third party was involved to clear things up and make things right (Nynaeve being my primary suspect).

 

Or, sunlight is becoming more common. Perrin and Mat POVs both indicate this. Sunlight reaches Tar Valon, through the agency of no one in particular (except Rand in a general, world-wide sense) and food arrives from Caemlyn, not yet spoiled. It seems that once food is protected by Rand's presence, it stays protected. Certainly, we are given to understand that those apples will be good now, and won't immediately rot again.

[Mandro]

random thing, in the end of ToM did everyone notice? (cuz it was obvious) that rand was not only the lightbringer but also he who comes with the dawn as he approaches the armies who support and oppose him?

 

I'm sure it has already been addressed, but I just had to toss that in. "and the sun split the clouds, He is here."

 

Greatperformance.

 

Also, the one hand hiddenis also napoleaonic. Just saying.

[moratcorlm]

Gawyn smiled, breathing in the scents of roses and mud around the pond. The scents of life. He glanced up at the sky as they walked. "I can't believe how much sunlight we've been seeing here. I'd nearly convinced myself that the perpetual gloom was something unnatural."

 

"Oh, it probably is," she said nonchalantly. "A week back the cloud cover in Andor broke around Caemlyn, but nowhere else."

 

"But . . . how?"

 

She smiled. "Rand. Something he did. He was atop Dragonmount, I think. And then . . ."

[Mandro]

Rand: Causes trees to bloom, the sun to shine, and in his presence we have multiple cases of food being exceptional (the apples in the grove, Cadsuane's tea, the food in the Sea Folk ships holds).

 

True.

 

Elayne: Generates region of sunlight as shown by Caemlyn. Potentially allows some amount of Rand's ability to cause growth, based on the rose gardens of the Royal Palace. Appears to do it more slowly than Rand does, as her arrival at FOM causes the clouds above to start to thin, but Rand's arrival causes them to split suddenly.

 

That. we don't know. Rand's zen moment had world-wide (or at least very widespread, impact). Sun breaks through the clouds in the POVs of at least a couple of people not near Rand, geographically. We can show correlation between Elayne's arrival in Caemlyn and the clouds thinning, but not causation. It could be coincidence. Rand has his moment, clouds begin to thin and roll back, basically everywhere. He arrives somewhere in person, the process greatly accelerates.

 

Min: Generates region of sunlight as shown by her first chapter in Tear. Presumably does it as well as Elayne does.

 

Aviendha: While not verified, presumable benefits from the same effect as Min and Elayne.

 

Similarly, we don't know that either of these two "cause sunlight"

 

Mat: Is able to secure adequate food for his army. Is NOT able to cause sunlight.

 

Perrin: Is able to secure adequate food for his army. Does not prevent spoilage, but may reduce occurrences of spoilage. Is NOT able to cause sunlight.

 

Both other ta'veren seem to have the ability to protect food from spoilage in their immediate (very immediate, scallions are spoiling IN Perrin's camp) vicinities.

 

Unknown Party in Tar Valon on page 509-510: Sunlight and good tasting food that came from Caemlyn. Either A) Rand was in Tar Valon at the time, B) Elayne has to some extent or another Rand's ability to make food taste good AND the sunlight was caused by Min, Aviendha or Elayne, or C) a third party was involved to clear things up and make things right (Nynaeve being my primary suspect).

 

Or, sunlight is becoming more common. Perrin and Mat POVs both indicate this. Sunlight reaches Tar Valon, through the agency of no one in particular (except Rand in a general, world-wide sense) and food arrives from Caemlyn, not yet spoiled. It seems that once food is protected by Rand's presence, it stays protected. Certainly, we are given to understand that those apples will be good now, and won't immediately rot again.

 

VoG.

 

One of the things I didn't like is that none of the women are taverin. How is Perrin taverrin yet subserviant to elayne? How is Mat Ta'verrine yet subsverient to, again, elaynne? How is <del>Elayne</del> Eqwene the yioungest Amyrline ever yet not taverin?

[Mandro]

Gawyn smiled, breathing in the scents of roses and mud around the pond. The scents of life. He glanced up at the sky as they walked. "I can't believe how much sunlight we've been seeing here. I'd nearly convinced myself that the perpetual gloom was something unnatural."

 

"Oh, it probably is," she said nonchalantly. "A week back the cloud cover in Andor broke around Caemlyn, but nowhere else."

 

"But . . . how?"

 

She smiled. "Rand. Something he did. He was atop Dragonmount, I think. And then . . ."

Is that accurate? I thought it was "Something remarkable just happened." or something like that.

[Hopefire]

That. we don't know. Rand's zen moment had world-wide (or at least very widespread, impact). Sun breaks through the clouds in the POVs of at least a couple of people not near Rand, geographically. We can show correlation between Elayne's arrival in Caemlyn and the clouds thinning, but not causation. It could be coincidence. Rand has his moment, clouds begin to thin and roll back, basically everywhere. He arrives somewhere in person, the process greatly accelerates.

 

At FOM, the sequence of arrivals appears to be Egwene-->Perrin-->Elayne-->Rand. Perrin doesn't appear to have pushed back clouds by his presence elsewhere; as was quoted above, Caemlyn's clouds began to clear when Elayne felt Rand change. It is possible that the clouds at FOM began to clear when or before Perrin arrives, but the timing of events - with Elayne's arrival, Egwene notices the clouds clearing - indicate Elayne's presence has been the cause.

 

 

 

Similarly, we don't know that either of these two "cause sunlight"

 

We do, actually. As noted above in the Elayne/Gawyn conversation, and on page 187 of TOM - Min notes that the ring of open sky is perfectly circular around the city. As Rand has yet to return, we can inuit easily enough that Rand is having the effect through Min.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Both other ta'veren seem to have the ability to protect food from spoilage in their immediate (very immediate, scallions are spoiling IN Perrin's camp) vicinities.

 

This is an insufficient data item. We haven't seen them get really bad food, but whether that's been because as commanders of their respective armies they're only getting good food, because their ta'veren effect is keeping them well fed, or because their presence is able to hold off the Dark One's touch in their immediate vicinity is unknown. It could be any one of the three.

 

 

 

 

Or, sunlight is becoming more common. Perrin and Mat POVs both indicate this. Sunlight reaches Tar Valon, through the agency of no one in particular (except Rand in a general, world-wide sense) and food arrives from Caemlyn, not yet spoiled. It seems that once food is protected by Rand's presence, it stays protected. Certainly, we are given to understand that those apples will be good now, and won't immediately rot again.

 

Egwene notes that the clouds return to Tar Valon shortly after Rand's departure, on page 224, that tea was back to tasting stale again. I do not recall sunlight being mentioned in Mat or Perrin's point of views; if you can find examples outside of Caemlyn, I'd be interested in seeing them. So far as I know, only Rand, Min and Elayne's presence has resulted in the sun breaking through; Min and Elayne both attribute it to Rand, despite the effect centering on them in Rand's absense.

[randsc]

random thing, in the end of ToM did everyone notice? (cuz it was obvious) that rand was not only the lightbringer but also he who comes with the dawn as he approaches the armies who support and oppose him?

 

I'm sure it has already been addressed, but I just had to toss that in. "and the sun split the clouds, He is here."

 

Greatperformance.

 

Also, the one hand hiddenis also napoleaonic. Just saying.

 

And since Elayne was ALREADY there, clearly it wasn't Elayne that caused the clouds to split.

[randsc]

 

Egwene notes that the clouds return to Tar Valon shortly after Rand's departure, on page 224, that tea was back to tasting stale again. I do not recall sunlight being mentioned in Mat or Perrin's point of views; if you can find examples outside of Caemlyn, I'd be interested in seeing them. So far as I know, only Rand, Min and Elayne's presence has resulted in the sun breaking through; Min and Elayne both attribute it to Rand, despite the effect centering on them in Rand's absense.

 

Plains of Merilor. Elayne is there. So are clouds. Rand arrives. No clouds.

[Hopefire]

random thing, in the end of ToM did everyone notice? (cuz it was obvious) that rand was not only the lightbringer but also he who comes with the dawn as he approaches the armies who support and oppose him?

 

I'm sure it has already been addressed, but I just had to toss that in. "and the sun split the clouds, He is here."

 

Greatperformance.

 

Also, the one hand hiddenis also napoleaonic. Just saying.

 

And since Elayne was ALREADY there, clearly it wasn't Elayne that caused the clouds to split.

No, but they were already thinning in her presence.

[randsc]

I want you to be right, since it seems to me that the way that Rand could be keeping the geographic areas around his girlfriends clear would be if there is a little piece of Rand, so to speak, with each of them. And poor Min deserves to have babies and survive the Last Battle as mush as anyone.

 

But I'm not convinced.

[blazetheearth]

If I lived in Randland, then I probably would have joined either the Wolfguard or The Band of the Red Hand by now or maybe the Legion of the Dragon or the Black Tower, so I would either be following Perrin or Mat and siding with which ever side they choose (Rand's) or I would have already been following Rand by being a part of one of the 2 organizations he started (or possibly following the Shadow if I were 13x13'd at the BT). If I were a noble then it would probably depend on my previous experiences with Aes Sedai. If the WT had helped me or my family rise in power over the past couple hundred years or if I had a relative that went to the WT then I would be more likely to support Eggy, but if instead the reverse were true (if I had been trapped in an AS plot at some point or used by AS to achieve their goals) then I wouldn't want to follow ANY Aes Sedai ANYWHERE. And if I had spent any time at all being reminded about "angering AS" and about "AS influence" or "AS power" then I would be a lot less likely to help Eggy's side.

 

From a reader's POV, I loathe Eggy and have since TFoH, so I personally wouldn't follow her to a free dinner.

[David Selig]

As I said, I've been unable to find a place where food spoils in Mat's presence;

Here's one:

 

ToM, Ch.31, Mat's PoV

 

The air was thick. Thick with sounds, thick with curses, thick with scents. Smoke, pungent liquors, a steak that had been peppered so much that you could hardly taste the meat. That was probably for the best. Even in Caemlyn, meat spoiled unpredictably.

Whether this scene happens before or after VoG, BTW, I am really not sure.

 

As for the clear sky, the evidence is pretty strong that apart from Rand's vicinity, it can be seen only in the cities where Rand's girlfriends were. And in both cases there's a an unnatural looking ring of clouds. Faile for example was quite surprised by this when she came to Caemlyn:

 

ToM, Ch. 47

 

There was a distinct irregularity here. The clouds broke around Caemlyn. The cloud cover had been so universal elsewhere that Faile started upon seeing this. The clouds formed an open circle above the city, eerily even.

[Fel]

She did plan, she planned to stop him doing something insanely reckless. Waiting too long is a death sentence, but waiting long enough to come up with a plan isn't. It increases your chances of survival.

But, SHE did not come up with an alternative. You seem to agree that we are on a tight timeline here...with reality failing. He asked her to plan. She did not plan on what to do once you break the seals..she planned ONLY on how to stop him.

 

If she had planned how to convince him to stop while contingency planning what to do if he did, I would be FAR more amenable. but, she did not. Which is why she arouses such ire in me.

 

But the chance of success would be increased with a plan of battle, rather than just opening the gates and having everyone charge out willy-nilly, with no clear idea of what is to be done. I'm not saying "the seals should never be broken", I'm saying "breaking the seals with no plan is a huge risk, breaking them with a plan is still risky, but not as risky." Having a plan is less risky than having no plan, therefore they should have a plan.

Agreed that a plan is better. But, the third option, doing nothing, is the worst of all possible options. That is what Egwene is working towards. That is my point.

[randsc]

The only way to stop Rand from breaking the seals is to prevent an alternative. Doing nothing is no longer possible. Egwene, by planning nothing beyond gathering the armies and insisting he not break the seals, has failed to come up with an alternative, and therefore failed to plan even for keeping his from "doing something insanely reckless."

 

Planning to put her hands on her hips, braid her hair again so she can pull it, cross her arms under her breasts, sniff, and say, "Bad Dragon! No! Sit!" is not a plan.

[ironchefofmunchies]

ToM, Ch.31, Mat's PoV

 

The air was thick. Thick with sounds, thick with curses, thick with scents. Smoke, pungent liquors, a steak that had been peppered so much that you could hardly taste the meat. That was probably for the best. Even in Caemlyn, meat spoiled unpredictably.

 

 

 

I read this as it spoils when Mat goes out to where the Band is camped (which used to be farther from Caemlyn before Elayne let him move it near the end of TOM). If the Band was 5 or 10 miles from Caemlyn-then maybe stuff only spoils while Mat is visiting the Band's camp.

[Singer]

She did plan, she planned to stop him doing something insanely reckless. Waiting too long is a death sentence, but waiting long enough to come up with a plan isn't. It increases your chances of survival.

But, SHE did not come up with an alternative. You seem to agree that we are on a tight timeline here...with reality failing. He asked her to plan. She did not plan on what to do once you break the seals..she planned ONLY on how to stop him.

 

If she had planned how to convince him to stop while contingency planning what to do if he did, I would be FAR more amenable. but, she did not. Which is why she arouses such ire in me.

 

But the chance of success would be increased with a plan of battle, rather than just opening the gates and having everyone charge out willy-nilly, with no clear idea of what is to be done. I'm not saying "the seals should never be broken", I'm saying "breaking the seals with no plan is a huge risk, breaking them with a plan is still risky, but not as risky." Having a plan is less risky than having no plan, therefore they should have a plan.

Agreed that a plan is better. But, the third option, doing nothing, is the worst of all possible options. That is what Egwene is working towards. That is my point.

[Singer]

No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy!

 

Field Marshall Helmuth Carl Bernard von Molke