The Dragon Vs. The Amyrlin

[Dream]

This is the situation as I see it.

 

We're in a city under seige by an overwhelming army. Things are looking grim but the gates are still holding. The hero of the city and the captain of the gates have an argument about what to do.

 

Rand: Open the gates!

Egwene: Why?

Rand: Just open the gates.

Egwene: I want to know why.

Rand: Because I'm the hero and I said so.

Egwene: Piss off.

 

I would side with Egwene.

 

 

 

Having said that, this is what I really believe is happening.

 

Rand has a reason for doing what he is doing (to Egwene). Rand's ultimate plan is to gather everyone at the FoM, force the Dragon's Peace, travel to Shayol Ghul with Callandor, Nynaeve, one other (Moiraine), and a small army, break the seals and reseal the Bore using both Saidin and Saidar.

 

Egwene's/WT's plan is to rally the forces of light, find and defeat the Forsaken, hold off/make a truce with the Seanchan, push back the armies of the Shadow, and buy time until a way to win can be found.

 

In short, Rand/LTT finds himself in the same situation as the first time he was around.

 

IMO, both sides are doomed to failure. There's not as much time as Egwene thinks there is and the Bore cannot be fixed with a seal.

 

 

 

[moratcorlm]

Rand seems to still think Lews Therin was right last time, and that a saidin/saidar seal could fix the Bore. The problem is, we know (via Jordan) that this is wrong. We also have the diegetic evidence of Lews Therin and Latra Posae themselves: unless Latra Posae was herself ta'veren, then it was the Dragon's ta'veren effect which saved him from his own folly by uniting every single one of the millions of saidar channelers against him.

actually i believe jordan wasnt as direct on this issue as you think. ill have to find the quote but he basically said if female channelers had been part of it they would of been tainted too but right after he says the tainting was made possible by a very narrow set of conditions.

 

Yes, if you're referring to this quotation, that's exactly what we're talking about. Touching the One Power to Shai'tan is what enabled the taint to come into being, and as Jordan says repeatedly, saidar would have been equally vulnerable to the taint had it been used.

Q: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not retaint saidin?

RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore.

The problem is that Rand still hasn't given up on his plan to affix the seals by touching them to Shai'tan, and he appears to plan to do it exactly the way he wanted to last time:

I will not make the same mistakes a second time. I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used.

So the conditions for Shai'tan to taint both sides of the True Source are going to be realized by Rand's plan, if he's telling Egwene the truth. Which he may not be, admittedly.

 

IMO, both sides are doomed to failure. There's not as much time as Egwene thinks there is and the Bore cannot be fixed with a seal.

Yes, this exactly.

[draconian]

Yes, if you're referring to this quotation, that's exactly what we're talking about. Touching the One Power to Shai'tan is what enabled the taint to come into being, and as Jordan says repeatedly, saidar would have been equally vulnerable to the taint had it been used.

Q: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not retaint saidin?

RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore.

The problem is that Rand still hasn't given up on his plan to affix the seals by touching them to Shai'tan, and he appears to plan to do it exactly the way he wanted to last time:

I will not make the same mistakes a second time. I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used.

So the conditions for Shai'tan to taint both sides of the True Source are going to be realized by Rand's plan, if he's telling Egwene the truth. Which he may not be, admittedly.

the quote i am looking for is longer but that basically covers the same ground.

i dont think toughing shai'tan was the only condition for the tainting b/c jordan says conditions(plural). i think hes learn new things in this life with the cleansing and other event that will allow him to alter the conditions enough to prevent a new tainting. another element is part of the conditions was that it came as a supprise so even simply knowing that the counterstroke is possible and incoming maybe enough for him to block it or redirect it.

[BananaOnDrugs]

So...if I was just about any1 inbook but a darkfriend I'm pretty sure I'd choose Rand. I mean ta'veren pull + Jesus + he's shiny yey :D

Now most of you guys saying egwene are doing so because you assume Rand ain't got a clue/barely has an idea what to do after he breaks the seals; needs time to plan/ w/e. Now he's had quite a few years to plan this preBreaking with his partial failure being caused by 0 saidar for him. This time he has that but needs to sort trough callandor. These 30 days are time for both Min to get ahold of some clue and for himself to replan this stuff. I mean he never said in his POV that he hasn't done any planning while going hero on the world. Another thing is that even though he asked Egwene and the aes sedai to do some planning and thinking and stuff it was as if he didn't care about that - he only needed the monarchs. So either he has something like a plan or he believes(and I personally think so) that more planning is just going to be useless - w/e's left would be best figured on the moment(kind of what was done with Mah'alleinir).

Either way - Rand. Hell I'd be going for Rand if I was Egwene.

PS:I wanna see Nynaeve confirming Rand's sanity and to be more precise the looks on the yellow sitters at her c00lness @ healing

PS2:sry for some long sentences/gibberish - it's just how I roll

EDIT:I just browsed trough the last few posts and...are you sure that's what he mean? I mean I've never really read RJ's statement but it's completely possible he ment if only saidar was used and not in combination. Plus if the light power theory thingy is true then he could use callandor really efectively with it - it doesn't have a buffer and the taint and stuff are worse when you use it but...what if the same can be said about the light power. The buffers on casual sha'angreal could stop people like Rand from touching the light power(like I said before if it exists)=>reason for callandor and no other sha'angreal to be mentioned in the prophesies

[Majsju]

Well, do we absolutely know Rand doesn't have a plan? I read that whole sequence as him manipulating her into putting together a coalition - if that is in fact the case, it certainly seems he has a plan, and even if that wasn't his goal, he still manipulated her to some purpose.

 

So unless he's just decided to F*** with her head, he's got something in mind.

 

We do however, know for a fact that Egwene's entire plan is just to stop Rand.

 

Maybe if he'd told her his plan, she wouldn't have done what he wanted her to do.

 

Just a thought.

 

Yes, we know he does not have a plan, since we later see him tell Min to figure out what he is supposed to do.

 

Actually from a military standpoint, if you know your defenses are failing (and Rand knows the seals are failing,) and you can't repair them, it's better to control the damage and choose where and how the battle happens than it is to sit behind your crumbling defenses and cede that advantage to your enemy.

Rand doesn't know exactly when the seals will fail, by breaking them on his time line, he retains some control over their failure.

 

 

If that had been Rands main concern, why take 30 days to run around the world playing Superman? He was simply 100% sure that it was perfectly safe to wait another 30 days, but day 31 might be dangerous?

 

 

With regards to Min, he's already said as much to Egwene that he needs the women, so obviously he's not floundering in the dark - he has some idea of what went wrong, or maybe he's pushing her to do what he needs her to do. Anyway there's more to consider than solely the sealing of the bore. He STILL manipulated Egwene to some purpose - why did he do that? He even says later that she did exactly what he thought she'd do. He isn't acting like a guy with no idea what he's going to do next, and frankly if you think he is, we'll just have to disagree.

 

 

 

 

You reaslly think he needs to manipulate Min of all people into helping him? The person he trusts the most?

That he manipulated Egwene for some reason is obvious, that does not change the fact that he does not know what to do once the seals are broken.

 

In regards to my second post, that was more about the idea that military geniuses would agree with Egwene, when in fact, I can't think of a single military genius that might agree that sitting behind your crumbling walls waiting for them to fail is any kind of strategy at all.

Of course, that is not what I said at all. There are three options at play here, and you managed to leave the good one out - Wait while you come up with a plan that might make you victorious, instead of chosing between the two that will guarantee defeat.

 

Nor did I read Rand as running around playing "superman," to no purpose. Why bother? Kicks? Ego? Why not just sit in the stone fiddling with your Dragon Scepter?

Easing his quilty conscience. he fixed his latest major mistake in Arad Domon, and saved the guy he sent on a suicide mission.

 

I think that the charge that Rand is just winging it is way overstated. The only way I can think that someone insists that he's not thinking ahead, is because of this argument, and they like her more than I do.

Right, because it can absolutely not come from Rand twice in the book saying that he does not have a plan. Rand may have a bad track record when it comes to keeping his word, but he is not prone to flat out lying. especially not to Min.

 

 

[Elan Tedronai]

Personally, if I were a denizen of Randland, I'd be scared shitless by Rand's suggestion. But if I tried to look at it objectively, I might change my mind. The assumption here is that Rand was being vague, not telling me everything. As in, there was more to it than "I'm gonna break the seals, just cuzz..." Also, making the assumption that there was a point to the monthly delay- that the interim period would be used to make arrangements. And that the gathering of an audience would serve as the point when the details of the plan would be elucidated, to all, at once.

Also, in terms of sheer credibility in such matters, The Dragon Reborn is nonpareil.

I think Egwene freaking out and gathering forces is fairly predictable. If her internal monologue was more like "I need to have support, just in case his plan is rubbish," as oppossed to "He is mad, I will stop him with force," maybe I would be more sympathetic, as a reader.

 

 

You guys are looking at this wrong.

 

For a denizen of Randland, this isn't a debate between two characters, or two political figures, or two random people from the same small village.

 

This is a debate between the living embodiment of their metaphysics (a metaphysics they KNOW to be true, objectively, not just believe to be true) and the head of a very important but decidedly earthly institution.

 

This is a debate, in essence, about how to defeat Satan. And the two players are the Second Coming of Jesus, and the Pope.

 

Now, if you KNEW, objectively, from you own observation, that Christian metaphysics were TRUE. If you KNEW that that fellow over there really was the Son of God, returned to save the world from Satan. If this weren't a question of belief, but one of objective truth...

 

Would you line up with Jesus, or with Pope Benedict?

 

 

oh dear.now i know where the loyalty comes from.

 

It is a very apt analogy. Do you genuinely not see their positions as approximately similar in the WoT cosmology, or are you being disingenuous for the sake of rhetoric to an end that I can't seem to grasp?

 

 

the last time the saviour of the world went on his own he ended up killing his own kin. I am not sure rand=jesus in any shape or form.

[Elan Tedronai]

This is the situation as I see it.

 

We're in a city under seige by an overwhelming army. Things are looking grim but the gates are still holding. The hero of the city and the captain of the gates have an argument about what to do.

 

Rand: Open the gates!

Egwene: Why?

Rand: Just open the gates.

Egwene: I want to know why.

Rand: Because I'm the hero and I said so.

Egwene: Piss off.

 

I would side with Egwene.

 

 

 

Having said that, this is what I really believe is happening.

 

Rand has a reason for doing what he is doing (to Egwene). Rand's ultimate plan is to gather everyone at the FoM, force the Dragon's Peace, travel to Shayol Ghul with Callandor, Nynaeve, one other (Moiraine), and a small army, break the seals and reseal the Bore using both Saidin and Saidar.

 

Egwene's/WT's plan is to rally the forces of light, find and defeat the Forsaken, hold off/make a truce with the Seanchan, push back the armies of the Shadow, and buy time until a way to win can be found.

 

In short, Rand/LTT finds himself in the same situation as the first time he was around.

 

IMO, both sides are doomed to failure. There's not as much time as Egwene thinks there is and the Bore cannot be fixed with a seal.

 

 

if the bore is sealed by rand using saidin and saidar, then frankly it is going to be one of the biggest ending BS ever. How can jordan say that if the women joined up with LTT's plan shaitan would have tainted saidar too?

[randsc]

Personally, if I were a denizen of Randland, I'd be scared shitless by Rand's suggestion. But if I tried to look at it objectively, I might change my mind. The assumption here is that Rand was being vague, not telling me everything. As in, there was more to it than "I'm gonna break the seals, just cuzz..." Also, making the assumption that there was a point to the monthly delay- that the interim period would be used to make arrangements. And that the gathering of an audience would serve as the point when the details of the plan would be elucidated, to all, at once.

Also, in terms of sheer credibility in such matters, The Dragon Reborn is nonpareil.

I think Egwene freaking out and gathering forces is fairly predictable. If her internal monologue was more like "I need to have support, just in case his plan is rubbish," as oppossed to "He is mad, I will stop him with force," maybe I would be more sympathetic, as a reader.

 

 

You guys are looking at this wrong.

 

For a denizen of Randland, this isn't a debate between two characters, or two political figures, or two random people from the same small village.

 

This is a debate between the living embodiment of their metaphysics (a metaphysics they KNOW to be true, objectively, not just believe to be true) and the head of a very important but decidedly earthly institution.

 

This is a debate, in essence, about how to defeat Satan. And the two players are the Second Coming of Jesus, and the Pope.

 

Now, if you KNEW, objectively, from you own observation, that Christian metaphysics were TRUE. If you KNEW that that fellow over there really was the Son of God, returned to save the world from Satan. If this weren't a question of belief, but one of objective truth...

 

Would you line up with Jesus, or with Pope Benedict?

 

 

oh dear.now i know where the loyalty comes from.

 

It is a very apt analogy. Do you genuinely not see their positions as approximately similar in the WoT cosmology, or are you being disingenuous for the sake of rhetoric to an end that I can't seem to grasp?

 

 

the last time the saviour of the world went on his own he ended up killing his own kin. I am not sure rand=jesus in any shape or form.

 

 

Jordan said flat out that this is a Messiah story, and Rand is the Messiah.

 

For eff's sake, he even has stigmata!

[Dream]

if the bore is sealed by rand using saidin and saidar, then frankly it is going to be one of the biggest ending BS ever. How can jordan say that if the women joined up with LTT's plan shaitan would have tainted saidar too?

I agree. Having said both Saidin and Saidar would have been tainted back then, I would be disappointed if Rand just "did it right" this time.

[azrael.1289]

I would side with Rand simply because Egwene doesn't even seem to want to come up with an idea to defeat DO. She's given 30 days time by Rand and she uses that whole time with all the resources available to her being Amrylin doing what?

She must either think she/the WT can come up with an idea to defeat DO in which case she must try to come up with an idea or trust Rand.

It isn't the fact that Egwene opposes Rand without having any idea what to do herself that's irritating it's the fact that she doesn't even try.

[Grandis]

As a denizen of Randland, do I choose the organization that's spent the last 3000 years not coming up with a way to defeat the DO, or do I back the prophesied savior who has spent the last two years knocking down prophesies right, left and center? Choices, choices...

[Grandis]

Right, because it can absolutely not come from Rand twice in the book saying that he does not have a plan. Rand may have a bad track record when it comes to keeping his word, but he is not prone to flat out lying. especially not to Min.

 

If he had only said it to Egwene I would be able to disregard it as a bald-faced lie, since he knows that anything he said there would likely find it's way to the Shadow. However, Rand really wouldn't lie to Min, at least not in private, or semi-private, as the case may be. On the other hand, there must be a reason why we only got one short POV from Rand, and at the ass-end of the book, at that. RAFO, I suppose.

[randsc]

 

IMO, both sides are doomed to failure. There's not as much time as Egwene thinks there is and the Bore cannot be fixed with a seal.

Yes, this exactly.

 

Good thing that that isn't what Rand intends to do, then. He states in the text he intends to defeat the Dark One permanently. The fact that he doesn't know how to make new seal is beside the point.

[Shard]

I think "His blood on spilled on Shoyul Ghoul" is Rand's plan. He is going to sacrifice himself to remake the Bore.

[KefkaPalazzo]

Personally, it's difficult. Rand explained exactly none of his plan, and when planning how to present his plan, he seemed to think "How can I present this in the worst possible way?" and went with what he came up with. Egwene refuses to see that there may be a method to Rand's madness (pun DEFINITELY intended). If I were one of the lords getting Egwene's letter, I'd ask for an explanation from Rand, but side with her until I got an explanation that satisfied me.

[Nygma7]

Depends on what point of view I'm looking at, the (near) omniscient reader or Randlander.

 

As a Randlander:

 

The Dragon Reborn says the Bore can NOT be resealed unless the Seals are broken. Further, he says we can't wait for the seals to fall apart naturally, because the world is unraveling and the longer we wait, the worse it will be when the last seal finally breaks.

Can't really argue with any of this. I'm not sure I take the word of any Aes Sedai with respect to the seals over that of the guy who actually put them into place. Given that the Dragon is supposed to be the one to seal the Bore, if he says it can't be done with the old seals in place, I don't see any reason to argue with him here. Sounds like he knows how to close the Bore without the old seals, but not with them. If that's the case, then yeah, let's get this over with before ALL our stores of food are gone and more people randomly die to bubbles of evil.

As a reader:

 

Wait, you can't break the seals before you have a plan! Actually, might have this opinion as a Randlander as well if you were privy to Rand's conversations with Egwene or Min.

The seals may be weak, but they're better than nothing if the Bore can't be sealed back up immediately. Rand needs to have his plan in place before he breaks the seals. Yeah, you may need to bulldoze your house before you can build a new one, but if you can't start building till spring, don't knock down the old one in autumn if you're still living there. The problem is, we don't know that this isn't already Rand's plan. I can't believe he would start the assault without some idea of how to patch the Bore. Egwene, of course, doesn't even consider this.

 

Really, I think I'm with Rand either way on this. Sadly, I think he's counting on Egwene's automatic "Rand's wrong" instinct to get her to summon up his allies and others for him.

[randsc]

Personally, it's difficult. Rand explained exactly none of his plan, and when planning how to present his plan, he seemed to think "How can I present this in the worst possible way?" and went with what he came up with. Egwene refuses to see that there may be a method to Rand's madness (pun DEFINITELY intended). If I were one of the lords getting Egwene's letter, I'd ask for an explanation from Rand, but side with her until I got an explanation that satisfied me.

 

And when Rand says, "OK then, screw it. YOU GUYS go fight the Dark One."

 

What then?

[Elan Tedronai]

Personally, if I were a denizen of Randland, I'd be scared shitless by Rand's suggestion. But if I tried to look at it objectively, I might change my mind. The assumption here is that Rand was being vague, not telling me everything. As in, there was more to it than "I'm gonna break the seals, just cuzz..." Also, making the assumption that there was a point to the monthly delay- that the interim period would be used to make arrangements. And that the gathering of an audience would serve as the point when the details of the plan would be elucidated, to all, at once.

Also, in terms of sheer credibility in such matters, The Dragon Reborn is nonpareil.

I think Egwene freaking out and gathering forces is fairly predictable. If her internal monologue was more like "I need to have support, just in case his plan is rubbish," as oppossed to "He is mad, I will stop him with force," maybe I would be more sympathetic, as a reader.

 

 

You guys are looking at this wrong.

 

For a denizen of Randland, this isn't a debate between two characters, or two political figures, or two random people from the same small village.

 

This is a debate between the living embodiment of their metaphysics (a metaphysics they KNOW to be true, objectively, not just believe to be true) and the head of a very important but decidedly earthly institution.

 

This is a debate, in essence, about how to defeat Satan. And the two players are the Second Coming of Jesus, and the Pope.

 

Now, if you KNEW, objectively, from you own observation, that Christian metaphysics were TRUE. If you KNEW that that fellow over there really was the Son of God, returned to save the world from Satan. If this weren't a question of belief, but one of objective truth...

 

Would you line up with Jesus, or with Pope Benedict?

 

 

oh dear.now i know where the loyalty comes from.

 

It is a very apt analogy. Do you genuinely not see their positions as approximately similar in the WoT cosmology, or are you being disingenuous for the sake of rhetoric to an end that I can't seem to grasp?

 

 

the last time the saviour of the world went on his own he ended up killing his own kin. I am not sure rand=jesus in any shape or form.

 

 

Jordan said flat out that this is a Messiah story, and Rand is the Messiah.

 

For eff's sake, he even has stigmata!

 

I am not feeling it. Some messiah it turned out to be......

As for killing the dark one, well you can add that to list of the really BS endings too. Killing shaitan would be on par with sealing the bore with saidin and saidar. Both are BS endings after all RJ said.

[DemandredFO]

I side with Rand, for the reasons already stated. Also, I think Rand's plan involves the True Power, which is why he wouldn't tell Egwene that he needed to use the DO's power to reseal the bore. As to Egwene, she spent TOM hating Gawyn's guts for no better reason than that she wanted to show she was above emotions. She also planned how to form all female channelers into one organization after TG. This is fine, but there will be no after TG if someone doesn't come up with a plan. In regards to a plan, has she dispatched as much of the Green Ajah as she can spare to drive back the Trollocs in the Borderlands. As far as I can remember Rand sent help and then came himself.

Until Aviendha gets back I think Egwene has some of the Aiel, but does she really have Andor. Elayne loves Rand, he's her warder and father to her children. I seriously doubt that in the end Elayne will follow Egwene. One of Rand's boyhood friends is married to the third in line to the Saldean throne and one of his advisors is queen of the Malkeri. One way or the other he's got the Borderlanders. In summary I side with Rand, warts and all, to paraphase Birgitte

[Hadilmir]

And when Rand says, "OK then, screw it. YOU GUYS go fight the Dark One."

 

What then?

 

The image in my head of this is too awesome to put to words. Well played.

[Dream]

IMO, both sides are doomed to failure. There's not as much time as Egwene thinks there is and the Bore cannot be fixed with a seal.

Yes, this exactly.

 

Good thing that that isn't what Rand intends to do, then. He states in the text he intends to defeat the Dark One permanently. The fact that he doesn't know how to make new seal is beside the point.

Are you referring to Rand's pre-VoG conversation with Moridin where he tells him he plans to kill the Dark One? Rand was still blind back then. He has since changed his approach to everything. I seriously doubt that is still his plan, especially since he mentions that he failed last time because he didn't have the women's help.

 

And when Rand says, "OK then, screw it. YOU GUYS go fight the Dark One."

 

What then?

1. Shield him.

2. Bind him with ropes.

3. Travel to the black rocks of Shayol Ghul.

4. Gut him like a pig.

 

What? That could satisfy the prophecies couldn't it?

[draconian]

1. Shield him.

2. Bind him with ropes.

3. Travel to the black rocks of Shayol Ghul.

4. Gut him like a pig.

 

What? That could satisfy the prophecies couldn't it?

Rand's effect on those arround him will only increase with mat and perin present so its more like

1. Shield him

2. Become suddenly unable to channel etc

3. Get shielded with knotted weave that nobody but rand or a forsaken could undo

[moratcorlm]

That's only if the Wheel does not intend for Rand to meet his end in such a way. Ta'veren are not gods; they are servants.

[Barid Bel Medar]

IMO, both sides are doomed to failure. There's not as much time as Egwene thinks there is and the Bore cannot be fixed with a seal.

Yes, this exactly.

 

Good thing that that isn't what Rand intends to do, then. He states in the text he intends to defeat the Dark One permanently. The fact that he doesn't know how to make new seal is beside the point.

Are you referring to Rand's pre-VoG conversation with Moridin where he tells him he plans to kill the Dark One? Rand was still blind back then. He has since changed his approach to everything. I seriously doubt that is still his plan, especially since he mentions that he failed last time because he didn't have the women's help.

 

And when Rand says, "OK then, screw it. YOU GUYS go fight the Dark One."

 

What then?

1. Shield him.

2. Bind him with ropes.

3. Travel to the black rocks of Shayol Ghul.

4. Gut him like a pig.

 

What? That could satisfy the prophecies couldn't it?

 

 

Thank god you dont have any power in the world. We'd be doomed.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think the question was badly put by me.

 

Essentially, the debate is pointless.

 

Egwene is only doing what Rand wants her to do. As soon as he explains himself fully to her, she will understand.

 

Rand judged her perfectly, and she has gathered everyone for him.

 

The FoM isnt going to be about the seals. Rand isnt even going to debate it, as he says in the Epliogue, he has to break teh seals, whatever anyone says, he will have to do it anyway.

 

What I was getting at (or failed to get at, it seems) is Egwene will be opposed to the Dragon's Peace, the real reason for the FoM. She will not 1. want the Tower to be included. the Tower obey's no law but its own. and 2. will not agree to peace witht he Seanchan.

 

there is also the issue of Asha'man bonding the AS. She will want them released. IMO, the fools deserved it. They went to destroy the male channelers, who can blame AM for bonding them and restricting them. Perhaps though, after explaination, the forced obedience will be removed. But nonetheless, there is the issue of male-female channeler bonding.

 

There is also the issue of control of the LB. Maybbe not Egwene, but certainly the AS will want to control the forces of Light.