The Prophecies of the Shadow

[Eric Shepherd]

Hello every one,

So this is my first forum entry, hope oyu all enjoy.

The very last page of the towers of midnight is occupied by the recently revealed prophecy of the shadow.

I would like to discuss the second paragraph and its meaning.

 

"The one-eyed fool travels the halls of mourning"

Possibility here for Mat to be mourning maybe the loss of Olver (as he runs off to fight in Caemlyn)

 

Second

"The last days of the fallen blacksmith pride shall come"

Obviously the next bit deals with the death of hopper, however i thought that maybe Perrin is destined to die but somehow still lead the wolfs.

 

Thoughts anyone???

[Durinax]

Hello every one,

So this is my first forum entry, hope oyu all enjoy.

The very last page of the towers of midnight is occupied by the recently revealed prophecy of the shadow.

I would like to discuss the second paragraph and its meaning.

 

"The one-eyed fool travels the halls of mourning"

Possibility here for Mat to be mourning maybe the loss of Olver (as he runs off to fight in Caemlyn)

 

Second

"The last days of the fallen blacksmith pride shall come"

Obviously the next bit deals with the death of hopper, however i thought that maybe Perrin is destined to die but somehow still lead the wolfs.

 

Thoughts anyone???

I dont think the second one deals with wolves at all. They are not known as prides (thats lions), but rather packs. I think that Perrin will become very proud and overconfident soon and that will leave him open to attack. Althouhg by my reasoning he hasnt fallen in any way

[Lacanos]

The halls of mourning are probably the rooms in the Ael/Eel world - they're the warriors of final regret or something.

[moratcorlm]

I think I may have said something back in the thread that slipped all the way to the second page.

[AnimusMessor]

I think that those prophecies were fulfilled. Mat walking the halls of mourning was definitely fullfilled. I think the fallen blacksmiths pride is the pride he held as a creator and not destroyer. The prophecies were fullfilled, he is not a blacksmith anymore, hes a king and carry's the "Hammer of a King"...

[MattTaz]

Way back in WH when Moridin arrives at the Chosen Meeting with a rat on his shoulder he refers to the other vermin Padan Fain.

So perhaps the 'first among vermin who lifts his hand' is Fain

[rand4747]

the last days of perrins pride is a good thing, its hard to explain pride, but its generally that the opposite of pride is humility.

 

So Perrin is too proud to admit to himself the truths of what he is and does. He later reveals to himself the truth and accepts what he is, so he has learned humility,

 

Pride is also linked to vanity or maintaining a false image. An image which is unrealistic, Rand was also guilty of that and thats how he became darth Rand

 

 

 

I found this on the net

 

""Briefly, when an individual shifts his center of gravity to his idealized self, he not only exalts himself but also is bound to look at his actual self -- all that he is at a given time, body, mind, healthy and neurotic -- from a wrong perspective. The glorified self becomes not only a phantom to be pursued; it also becomes a measuring rod with which to measure his actual being. And this actual being is such an embarrassing sight when viewed from the perspective of a godlike perfection that he cannot but despise it. Moreover, what is dynamically more important, the human being which he actually is keeps interfering -- significantly -- with his flight to glory, and therefore he is bound to hate it, to hate himself. And since pride and self-hate are actually one entity, I suggest calling the sum total of the factors involved by a common name: the pride system" (Horney, 1950, pp. 110-11). "

 

 

So it can be taken that Perrin will be defeated by the shadow and destroyed but it can also mean that he has rediscovered himself and has come out stronger, like he did, thats a problem with alot of the prophecies especially of the shadow that they can be interpreted both ways.

[WMTom]

I find it courious, we have three decernable characters, "The One-Eyed Fool", "The First Among Vermin", and the "Fallen Blacksmith". The One-Eyed Fool is Mat, The First Among Vermin is Rand, The fallen Blacksmith is Perrin. I do not see why The Prophecies of the Shadow would second reference Perrin. It seems more likely to me it would reference Rand more than anyone else. I do not believe the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, is one of our three.

 

Death is capatalized in the prophecies suggesting it is a title and not an action. So, who then is the broken Wolf. I would not think of Hopper in anyway broken. I do not see Hopper as an important enough character to be mentioned in dark prophecies anyway. Unfortunately I do not have some one to put forward as the Broken Wolf. I am too tired to think about it now, it is early and I am coming off a 12er.

 

Merry Christmas all, Happy Holidays all

[rand4747]

I find it courious, we have three decernable characters, "The One-Eyed Fool", "The First Among Vermin", and the "Fallen Blacksmith". The One-Eyed Fool is Mat, The First Among Vermin is Rand, The fallen Blacksmith is Perrin. I do not see why The Prophecies of the Shadow would second reference Perrin. It seems more likely to me it would reference Rand more than anyone else. I do not believe the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, is one of our three.

 

Death is capatalized in the prophecies suggesting it is a title and not an action. So, who then is the broken Wolf. I would not think of Hopper in anyway broken. I do not see Hopper as an important enough character to be mentioned in dark prophecies anyway. Unfortunately I do not have some one to put forward as the Broken Wolf. I am too tired to think about it now, it is early and I am coming off a 12er.

 

Merry Christmas all, Happy Holidays all

 

 

Jain Farstrider may have met Ishmael, don't think he would have when he became known as Moridin, it may be possible he met him after he became Moridin though.

[Durinax]

could the broken wolf be Noam? he is a person who broke down into a wolf when his family died or some such

[Danith]

It's possible that the "Broken Wolf" is Boundless, aka Noam. During the last portion when Perrin is talking with him inside the Wolf Dream, and he asks Boundless what he thought of the human world, death and pain was a fairly consistent theme. He is obviously 'broken' in a sense, even if Perrin came to realize that that was a personal choice made by Noam. So he's a wolf, that's broken and who has known Death.

[Danith]

Ahhh, Durinax you posted while I was typing. I got ninja'd. :P

[SvetSedi]

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

 

 

In that day, ….. the last days …. shall come

 

“In that day” can mean a specific day, but it can mean a time frame. i.e. when people say “in my day” they are not talking about an actual specific day but a time frame. Also the last days can not occur in a day, so this particular “In that day” must be referring to a time frame.

 

 

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning,

most likely this is Mat in Finn-land but it could well be walking through Caemlyn after the attack. He could be blaming himself for the deaths. Either way is a viable option.

 

 

and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy,

Most likely Rand breaking the last Seals.

 

the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come

Perrin has finally accepted that he is no longer a Blacksmith

 

 

Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers

Not absolutely sure. On this one – it could easily be Rodel Ituralde in the future. But I go with Hopper. He has known death – he already dies once. And he was consumed by the Midnight Towers – the Final Death by the hands of Graendal and Mordin. Then we have:

 

 

And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

Well when Hopper died the Final death – his Soul was destroyed forever. I’m sure that Perrin, Boundless (Noam), Elias and even Faile to some extent felt sorrow. That counts as multiple men feeling sorrow.

 

In addition, when Perrin returned to the real world, he was in a considerable bad mood. Thus causing many of his men to be very nervous. Hopper’s death then triggered Perrin’s conversion & his decision to attack. This caused Berlain and the Whitecloaks to experience fear and to shake the Whitecloaks very will itself. They thought that they were about to be destroyed without a real chance to fight.

 

Not perfect, but unless it refers to something in the future, then nothing else that we have seen yet fits any better.

[MattTaz]

Is the prophecies of the Shadow based on if the DO wins?

For example is the Karetheon(sp?)/Min's viewings/Eg's dreams based on the Pattern

But the shadow prophecies could be based on the DO's influence and eventual win - which may or may not happen.

Hmmm hope i'm making some sense :P

 

A bit off topic but what Min sees comes true except there was options for Siuan/Gareth & Gawyn/Eggy and these had to

do with the bloodknives and their ter'angreal thingo. Does anyone know why these things affect the Pattern?

[moratcorlm]

Is the prophecies of the Shadow based on if the DO wins?

No. The Shadow prophecies and Light prophecies are both brought forth in the same way, by people who can see glimmers of the Pattern yet to occur. The affiliation of the prophet will alter their interpretation of what they see (c.f. Elaida) and color what they say, but if the Pattern survives both the Light and Shadow prophecies will come true.

Ty Margheim on Twitter 8 November 2010

Are the prophecies competing a la The Belgariad (by David Eddings), or are they complementary?

Brandon

Not competing like The Belgariad, and certainly not intelligent like in The Belgariad.1

Brandon

Some may be interpreted wrong, others may be recorded wrong, but there is not a this/that nature to them.

[rand4747]

Is the prophecies of the Shadow based on if the DO wins?

No. The Shadow prophecies and Light prophecies are both brought forth in the same way, by people who can see glimmers of the Pattern yet to occur. The affiliation of the prophet will alter their interpretation of what they see (c.f. Elaida) and color what they say, but if the Pattern survives both the Light and Shadow prophecies will come true.

Ty Margheim on Twitter 8 November 2010

Are the prophecies competing a la The Belgariad (by David Eddings), or are they complementary?

Brandon

Not competing like The Belgariad, and certainly not intelligent like in The Belgariad.1

Brandon

Some may be interpreted wrong, others may be recorded wrong, but there is not a this/that nature to them.

 

The prophecies are always correct in their original telling but can be misinterpreted or altered to fit what the person/people want.

[fikkie77]

Well, we don't know where these prophecies come from. They might differ completely from the original prophecy by a BA with Foretelling. They might have been in the Old Tongue, poorly translated and translated back in the Old Tongue by Moridin. We don't know and as we don't know, we don't know how reliable it is. That it's about Rand, Mat and Perrin seems pretty obvious.

[Kahlika]

Well, we don't know where these prophecies come from. They might differ completely from the original prophecy by a BA with Foretelling. They might have been in the Old Tongue, poorly translated and translated back in the Old Tongue by Moridin. We don't know and as we don't know, we don't know how reliable it is. That it's about Rand, Mat and Perrin seems pretty obvious.

 

We do know where they came from. Moridin tells Graendal the Shadow Prohechies were Foretold (using a capital F so reffering to the Talent) by men and women who were then kept isolated and alone so nobody would find out what was spoken. From what we know of the Foretelling Talent it is something that gives glimpses of the Pattern. While the interpreations put on that are filtered hrough the Foretellers biases (see Elaid's Fortelling about the BT for an example), any Fortelling regardless of which side it's from is still a glimpse of the pattern.

 

And it seems to mostly refer to the future. Rand has yet to break the Seals. Mat is yet to walk the Halls of Mourning, which seems to be metaphor rather than a place (not capitalised to indicate a place). So Mat has to mourn, my personal guess is over Caemlyn/the death of somebody in Camelyn. The only one we can reasonably say has happened has been the Perrin part.

 

Also I just don't see how Hopper's death can really be said to have shaken the hearts of men without massively reaching. The exact words are "his destruction shall bring fear and sorrw to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself". Yes it made a couple of people sad, but it didn't harm their resolve at all, in fact it strengthened it if anything, nor did it make people afraid. It seems more likely that this is in the future and the most likely cantidate would be Ituralde (known as the Wolf), although people have put forward semi convincing arguments for Bashere and Lan being the Wolf as well.

[gary0044187]

I think I may have said something back in the thread that slipped all the way to the second page.

OMG, so you are saying that there is another thread, merely one page back, that is discussing this very topic? Is it possible that many of these points in this thread have already been brought up and are being discussed by a group there? mindblowing.

[asudlow]

Well, I could be wrong about this, but I suspect the 'Halls of Mourning' are a reference to the actual Towers of Midnight in Seanchan. Mat is the Prince of Ravens after all.

[GB]

my guess is that the Halls of Mourning are in Camelyn after the battle there, and Mat blames himself for not having opened the letter and someone- olver or talmanes dies? and also the remaining survivors will be mourning the deaths of their friends/relatives etc.

[Rivirland]

One thing I'm really waiting for is the return of book 3, where Rand tries to bring someone back to life again. I think Jordan didn't put it there if there is no one to be resurrected from death, and it fits the prophecies' condition when Perrin dies (falls to the Towers of Midnight), but Rand revives him afterwards.

[spoke]

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

 

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning,

 

I concur that this is probably Mat in either Camelyn or the TOG

 

and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy,

 

I think this may not be Rand, but Moridin/Shadar Haran, who is the nae'blis (or leader) of the shadow (among whose followers are often vermin). I also think Him who will Destroy is Rand because he is the Car'a'carn - who is prophesied to "destroy them with the leaf"

Since Moridin indirectly gave rand his freedom by pushing him to the brink where he would either destroy the world or recover. He basically freed Rand from all the insanity that he was tied to. -- He is no longer blind.

 

the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come.

 

I also concur that this is Perrin's pride as a blacksmith dieing not he himself -- In other words, we have seen this.

 

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Now the next part is a separate sentence.

Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers.

I think this is actually Isam/Luc/Slayer -- From the Dark Prophecy told in TGH where "Luc met Isam ... and one did live one did die..."

I think that Slayer is the Broken Wolf who will fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers (death).

 

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Now yet again another separate sentence.

And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

I think this refers to Rand dieing and because he dies the entire world will react upon these news.

[haloun]

two things i disagree with on the thread, the first among vermin is the DO himself. he lifted his hand to free him who shall destroy (rand) from the domination the broken wolf, is the DO's hound, his hunter, padan fain, and his destruction is not his death but the destruction he has been spreading. this is a prophecy of the shadow so it probably would refer to padan fain/mordeth/ordeith as the broken wolf, he was turned into a something else to track, as a tool he is broken since he is fighting against the DO now, and if anyone is more mentally broken than him I would love to know.

[Eht Slat Meit]

My speculation regarding the Second Verse, based on excerpts from the book after re-reading it:

 

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

 

1. The One-Eyed Fool (Matrim Cauthon)

 

"The creature's hand snapped forward, too-sharp nails glittering in the dim light. He drove them directly into the socket around Mat's left eye, then ripped the eye out with a snap." (pg 800)

 

Self-explanatory.

 

2. The Halls of Mourning (Tower of Ghenjei)

"Rippling white steam poured up from holes at all four corners; that mist glowed with a white light. There were four hallways extending from the room, one in each direction (pg 782)"

"'One way,' Noal said. "Four choices, followed by four choices, followed by four choices... The odds against us are incredible!'" (pg 783)

 

"We are the near ancient, the warriors of final regret, the knowers of secrets." (pg 794)

 

Regret and mourning are almost inextricably linked, and while it's only speculation, it seems likely that their regret refers to their obsession with emotion which only ever comes to them in stray travelers.

 

3. The First Among Vermin (Rand Al'Thor), Him Who Will Destroy (Shai'tan)

 

"'In one month's time,' Rand said, 'I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. I need your help.' Break the seals? She saw the image from her dream, Rand hacking the ropes that bound the crystalline globe. 'Rand, no.' she said." (pg 84)

 

The greatest fear throughout the books involving the crumbling seals is that they represent the Dark One breaking free, a fear that seems well founded by the Bubbles of Evil and other chaotic effects being set loose upon the world. Here Rand speaks of his plan to -expedite- the procress of freeing Shai'tan. While there are many possible "Him who Destroys" running around the world, the Dark One is the only that is not yet free.

 

4. The Fallen Blacksmith (Perrin Aybara)

"This is not done yet, Fallen Blacksmith. Not by an inch or by a league." (pg 601)

 

A direct reference to both Perrin and the dark prophecy by Graendal.

 

5. The Last Days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride (Forging Mah'alleinir)

 

"The tool he left behind was the hammer of a simple blacksmith. That person would always be part of Perrin, but he could no longer afford to let him lead. From now on, he would carry the hammer of a king." (pg 616)

 

Perrin's greatest pride was choosing the hammer over the axe. He must now set his pride aside.

 

6. The Second Verse (ToM, book)

 

The last days of the fallen blacksmith's pride gives the entire second verse a clean time-frame, all the events chronicled in 'Towers of Midnight.'

 

7. The Towers of Midnight (The Forsaken)

 

"All was dust around her, and thirteen black towers rose in the distance beneath a tar-like sky. One fell, and then another, crashing to the ground. As they did, the ones that remained grew taller and taller. The ground shook as several more towers fell. Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground- but then it recovered and grew tallest of all. At the end of the quake, six towers remained." (pg 74)

 

As of Egewene's Dreaming, six Forsaken yet lived: Moridin, Mesaana, Graendal, Lanfear, Moghedien and Demandred. Moridin nearly fell, but was restored, and became Nae'bliss. All bow to his word, even Demandred.

 

This leaves the question of the Broken Wolf. Who could the surviving (5) Towers of Midnight destroy that would bring despair and shake the will of the world? Names such as Isam are posited, but the world doesn't know him. Then there's Ituralde, but he's only known as a Great General. The only person with that kind of impact is Rand, and the title doesn't seem to fit him. I tend to think that the Broken Wolf is not a who, but a what...

 

8. The Broken Wolf (The Borderlands)

 

"Even the most fearsome creatures of the Blight knew not to attack a Kandori tower." (pg 48)

 

"That sea of Trollocs seemed endless. Against this foe, the tower would eventually fall. The Trollocs would keep coming, wave after wave." (pg 52)

 

"The Blight, he'd entered the Blight. But what else was he to do? The Trollocs rampaged to the south; the towers had all fallen. Kandor itself had fallen." (pg 838)

 

"Easily ten times the number of men Lan had gathered during his march across the Borderlands. Normally men held at their side of the Gap, but Lan could not do that... His army charged behind him, each man mounted - a charge of Kandori, Arafellin, Shienarans and Saldaens." (pg 842)

 

The Borderlands, the shield against the Blight and standing as one against it, with all the ferocity and hatred for shadowspawn of the Wolf is shown to be breaking throughout the course of ToM, and finally broken at the end with men abandoning their station to follow Lan. The lights go dark as the Borderlands fall and are consumed by the armies of the remaining Towers of Midnight.