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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Kahlika

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  1. We do know where they came from. Moridin tells Graendal the Shadow Prohechies were Foretold (using a capital F so reffering to the Talent) by men and women who were then kept isolated and alone so nobody would find out what was spoken. From what we know of the Foretelling Talent it is something that gives glimpses of the Pattern. While the interpreations put on that are filtered hrough the Foretellers biases (see Elaid's Fortelling about the BT for an example), any Fortelling regardless of which side it's from is still a glimpse of the pattern. And it seems to mostly refer to the future. Rand has yet to break the Seals. Mat is yet to walk the Halls of Mourning, which seems to be metaphor rather than a place (not capitalised to indicate a place). So Mat has to mourn, my personal guess is over Caemlyn/the death of somebody in Camelyn. The only one we can reasonably say has happened has been the Perrin part. Also I just don't see how Hopper's death can really be said to have shaken the hearts of men without massively reaching. The exact words are "his destruction shall bring fear and sorrw to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself". Yes it made a couple of people sad, but it didn't harm their resolve at all, in fact it strengthened it if anything, nor did it make people afraid. It seems more likely that this is in the future and the most likely cantidate would be Ituralde (known as the Wolf), although people have put forward semi convincing arguments for Bashere and Lan being the Wolf as well.
  2. We do not have a single example. We have plenty of example of These WT witches bullying rulers to form treaties or just kidnap rulers, etc. The only recent examples we have of them kidnapping are both related to Elaida, which as we've mentioned over, and over, and over is written specifically to show an Aes Sedai who does abuse power etc. That is intended to be a contrast to the other Aes Sedai and show what could happen if they chose that path. On the other hand we have numerous examples of treaties, alliances, negotiations and even investigations conducted by Aes Sedai. They worked to form and hold the Grand Coalition during the Aiel War, they were the arcitects of the Compact of 10 nations 200 years after the Breaking, during the War of the Second Dragon they coordinated the Eastern nations against Guaire Amalasan (personally holding back his forces in defence of the Stone in Tear), Merana negotiated the Fifth Treaty of Falme, Annoura negotiated on behalf of Mayene and was involved with trying to hold the Grand Coalition together after the Aiel War, Rand asks Greys to negotiate The Bargain with the Seafolk on his behalf, brings Greys along to his meetings with the Seanchan, and sends Aes Sedai to negotiate with the rebels in Tear which ultimately ends with Darlin named King, and aside from that there are numerous references to them acting as mediators, investigators and in some cases sitting in judgement, for exampe Beonin refers to a series of murders she once investigated and Ashmanaille refers to her experiance in civil matters. If you'd like to provide some evidence that they achieved these by no means other than bullying please feel free, otherwise I'm afraid your argument doesn't really stand up. We really do not see anybody asking them. We saw them forcefully go into sovereign countries and kidnap men. We also saw them floating false Dragons :)) Sometimes people do not mind them taking tyrant dragons, but nobody begged them for there service. You can say even a Bully does a few good things from time to time and common people may be thankful for a few of their actions. That does not make them any less bully. You do realise the 'them floating flase Dragons' was a fake story made up to get Logain his revenge on the Reds right? That never actually happened, enough Aes Sedai were convinced of it to pass on the lie believing it to be truth, but it wasn't actually true. Berlain asks, Colavere asks, Tylin asks, Alliandre asks and Morgase asks at one point. We saw Elaida kidnap people. Eladia was meant to demonstrate an Aes Sedai abusing their power, she was written to be an example of a bad Aes Sedai purposefully, the things she does stand out as so apalling because they are exceptions rather than rules. You can't really apply examples from Elaids in a more general sense to all Aes Sedai legitimately, or you're just missing the entire point about Elaida. This shows Some rulers fear WT more and less spine to resist. Nowhere it is mentioned that any country has law to follow tower law. Nowhere is it mentioned that they don't. And moreover we see them cooperating and complying, which suggests acceptance of the Aes Sedai's jurisdiction rather than the opposite. Nor can I think any of them acting afraid or spineless when they do so. I genuinely have no clue what you're talking about. I think you're trying to insult me? Is that meant to upset me somehow? As discussed multiple times in this thread they haven't in fact sat on their backsides and done nothing for 3000 years, they clearly haven't achieved as much as people expect of them, but there's a long way between that and nothing at all. I'll refer you back to page 30 of this thread rather than reiterating it here. I made it clear that I was talking about present time when I referred to the Seanchan in Amadicia and Ebou Dar. I pretty specifically mention travelling, which is a pretty big pointer to me talking about now. I then clarified that in case you were still confused in my next post. If you're still struggling to follow it it really isn't my problem at this point. But as I've said 4 or 5 times now it's irrelevant. If they had a hospital in Tanchico it would mean not having one somewhere else. They can only heal a finite number of people, and every person healed in Tanchico or Ebou Dar is one less healed elsewhere. If you're talking about something else feel free to elaborate, because you're not making a lot of sense. That makes pretty much everyone and everything bullies then. I don't know of anyone or any organisation that would turn down free money, perhaps they're all living near you. On the Moon presumably. Egwene states that there are only a couple of hundred Aes Sedai in the tower when she was being held prisoner. As discussed above the planting false dragons thing was a story. It's not real. Have you even bothered to read the books? Just putting this out here, but you repeatedly calling them witches and making up lies about them is starting to make you sound like a Whitecloak, and they're not known for being the most rational, intelligent, humane or even sane organisation in the world. Why you'd want to align yourself with their views is beyond me. But go right ahead, I'm sure it's providing endless amusement for people. Honestly there's far better and more coherant reasons to dislike them, ones that many people have actually argued soundly, why are you opting to use pretend things to justify your weak arguments? I'm really not seeing what it's meant to achieve. Made for the public to use doesn't equal given to the public. You're just making things up again. Not to mention the fact that the Aes Sedai have a fairly legitimate claim given that they're the only people in the world with any chance of using the things or working out what they are, and that the things have the potential to be highly dangerous. Even given that it's still irrelavent, as I've said time and time again, nothing says you have to like or approve of the law for it to exist. Plenty of people regard tax laws as theft just as you regard the Aes Sedais laws about objects of the power as being theft. It doesn't change the fact that they're still laws. And yes, just like the Nazis, of course. Now that Godwins Law has been fulfilled I'm gonna go ahead and declare this over. You failed. Goodnight. Darth I need to get some sleep, I'll reply to your post tomorrow when I can give it a little more focus.
  3. The Borderlands regularaly pay tribute to the WT. It is stated in the book that the tribute isn't needed anymore, but they still have the borderlands pay it. And yet the Green ajah sits in the tower twidling their thumbs, instead of fighting trollocs as in their ajah mission statement. Nations ask these things of them and they provide them yes, but what of the other ajahs? The WT supposibly is occupied by 1000ish AS. Thats not counting AS who are abroad. I'd think there should be about 100-150 AS to capture male channelers. Maybe 10-30 for treaties, another 10 as advisors. About 50 more for (sigh) Hall, Ajah heads, amyrlin and keeper. Another 70-80 for novice/accepted teaching. That leaves about 760-680 sisters left in the tower, pursueing their own interests and soaking up the WT's gold. I'd call that unexceptable in ANY institution that receives donations. As I said you don't have to think they do what they do well, or like how they go about it, but it doesn't change the fact that they do it which is the point I was answering because some people are still pretending they all do nothing at all every, which is just false. Certainly some Ajahs do better than others, some sisters do better than others, but they're all Aes Sedai, so to argue that Aes Sedai do absolutely nothing ever is untrue. I believe ~1000 was the total. There were ~200 AS in the Tower when Elaida was in charge iirc. There are *a lot* of advisors or those on diplomatic missions, not only rulers have them but many nobles seem to as well. Some rulers seem to have several etc, plus the various groups sent out on diplomatic missions of one kind or another. Also, if someone wants to keep giving me money I'm happy to take it. As is every other business, Government organisation or basically anything I've ever seen or worked with. Why is it that unusual or unreasonable that they do? That is, if the rulers know everything thats happening everywhere in their kingdom at any given time. The fact is, anywhere we see AS interact with anyone other than other AS, they try to take control.(Im looking at you, Joline, Cadsuane) The objects of the One power thing is just ridiculous. If a Spanish ship bearing Gold, property of the Spanish government crashed and sunk in a hurricane in 1655, and it was found today in the Carribean, would Spain demand that all the gold be brought to it at once? We see Moiraine interact with the Wise Ones then load up and take everything she can carry out of Rhuidean, we see a whole bunch of Aes Sedai interact with Tylin and load up and take the contents of the storehouse. You can't say they took those actions without the consent of the leaders of those nations. And yes, Spain does that actually. Totally dead serious. Google it. Regardless again this is one where it doesn't matter if you think it's a stupid claim, my point was that they make it and other people (in general, obviously there are some exceptions) recognise it and comply. There's no judgment there about whether that's a good or bad thing, simply that it happens. re them taking charge yes they do, can you blame them? Why wouldn't they want to take charge if they could? Why do people think they owe some sort of obligation to people to not use what advantages they have? It's like none of you have heard of politics before. The scenario was in the 3000 or so years before Seanchan and traveling. They would undoubtably(seeing how smart and wise all AS are) be positioned so that they could serve the densest population while presenting the shortest traveling distance to them. 100 miles is a lot different than 500. More people would go because they are closer. The borderlands would not need many healers, as they have a whole significantly large ajah, the greens, that is devoted tho fighting shadowspawn.(this is in a perfect world where greens are actually doing something useful) Ok thanks for clarifying, when you gave the scenario you said 'you' were sick, not you were sick 3000 years ago, so I went with the former. However as I said even if they did have one in Tanchico, all that would mean would be they'd not have one elsewhere, as only so many can be healed, they can't have infinite hospitals etc. Every person healed in Tanchico is one person in the Borderlands (or elsewhere) not healed, and while that might be great news for you if you're sick in Tanchico it isn't the best news for your hypothetical cousin who's sick in the Boderlands. Healing is a Talent, one can suppose from the fact that they aren't in the Yellow that it isn't a strong talent amongst most Greens, so saying 'they can do all the Borderlands healing' is reaching. I will also add that the Greens are respected throughout the Borderlands due to the role they have played there in the past, so pretending they've done nothing ever is also just not true.
  4. First of all, to discuss this properly, we'd have to establish the social and cultural ideological differences between countries. Because I'm certain we're not from the same country (I don't even think we share the same native tongue) and the perception of certain public officials who deserve "respect" in your homeland may not be the same as those which apply to my country. This varies from place to place, just like "respect" for the Aes Sedai is not the same in Andor as it is in Amadicia, for instance, not to mention the Seanchan continent, of course. I don't really think that that's relevant, since my point was more that multiple different types of respect do exist, as opposed to people arguing there is only one type of respect. While people can respect individuals on their merits they can also respect the holder of a position by virtue of them holding that position, hence more than one type of respect. While that may or may not happen where you are (Mexico iirc from one of your comments, fwiw I'm in Australia) it doesn't require it to happen where you are to recognise that it is possible that it happens. You're clearly not an idiot even if we do disagree, so I'm sure you're able to recognise the basic fact that there isn't only one possible type of respect. Whether the Aes Sedai are entitled to respect due to their role (which I contend is the type of respect they expect, going back to the start of this discussion, which was initially about how dare they expect respect when they all don't earn it personally) is obviously something we're going to disagree over. So moving right along to that disagreement; Given that they are so expressly prohibited from using those special powers to harm anyone there really isn't much to suggest fear of having the one power used on them is a motivating factor in the Aes Sedai getting what they want. If it was it would suggest everyone is exceedingly stupid, and if that were the case why shouldn't the Aes Sedai take advantage of that? The Aes Sedai use politics as does everyone else, but they're not using any advantages there that other people don't have, in fact they're more limited since everyone else can out and out lie whenever they please. I won't deny that they can be feared, certainly plenty of people fear them as witches as so on, but is that their fault or the fault of the people who believe that? I understand that people have some sort of chivalrous honourable ideal that they think the world should be run by, but the reality is that it isn't. I really don't see the abuse of power at all (except in situations that all link very directly to Elaida, and obviously they were intended to be that). Yes, let’s look at Mat. First of all I disagree he was ever afraid of the Aes Sedai. Wary, distrusting and aware they'd use the one power to stop him which if he tried to physically harm them yes, but that's not afraid. He didn't actually radically change attitude and behaviour after he got his medallion (and nor did the Aes Sedai radically change theirs in response to him having the medallion, which suggests that their own conception of their authority doesn't rest solely on them being channelers). His behaviour and attitude to Aes Sedai has always been the same, he thought and behaved the same was as he did post foxhead when he was taken to the Tower for healing before he went to Rhuidean. The only real difference was that he was able to go a step further with the foxhead and physically beat one of them. I'm not sure I'm seeing how that example is helping your argument. Devils advocate here, I do actually like Mat, but you did say before (in the 'discuss the whole book' thread) that you consider Cadsuane wrapping Tam in flows of air to be a gross violation of human rights. How is that a violation of human rights and Mat detaining, restraining and physically beating an Aes Sedai who can't fight back in response to verbal provocation not a violation of human rights? Personally I don't think either are, but if Cadsuane's actions are, which according to you they are, then Mat's certainly are as well. In which case according to your arguments and examples the change wrought by removing the concern that the Aes Sedai could use the power to defend themselves was that people become willing to violate the human rights of the Aes Sedai whenever they please. Please explain why that's a good thing? While you're at it please explain why Aes Sedai shouldn't be able to use the power to defend themselves if they have to. If people do fear them for that then you'd have to assume those people wish to do something to them which would allow them to use the power to defend themselves, and I can't say I have all that much sympathy in that case. Tower Law doesn't apply to all the territories of the Westlands. That's an attribution that the Aes Sedai of the Third Age have just taken for granted in very arbitrary fashion. Tar Valon is no public institution by any means, but an actual independent, sovereign and autonomous state similar to the Vatican (especially in medieval times, precisely, as Jordan himself said that he used convents and such as inspiration for the Tower's laws, ways and traditions). Therefore, the White Tower has no power over any other independent, sovereign and autonomous state, unless granted to them for certain purposes, such as in Andor, for instance. And even there, Elaida's role as adviser and councillor to Queen Morgase was limited to certain parameters. It's very simple to establish where the White Tower's jurisdiction starts and where it ends. It takes two things to make a law apply outside of its physical jurisdiction, firstly there needs to be a law asserting that extended jurisdiction (which Tower Law does in relation to specific areas i.e. men who can channel, objects of the one power and Aes Sedai that we know of and potentially more that we don't), and secondly there needs to be agreement from the area in which they are claiming the law applies outside of their geographic region that they accept the extended jurisdiction. And they do have that agreement for the most part, yes there are places that they don't (Tear, Amadicia), but for the most part there is agreement to let their jurisdiction extend beyond Tar Valon's physical boundary in relation to a few specific areas and as such it does. Similarly the Vatican could enter into treaties extending some of it's rules to wherever other states were willing to have them extended to and they would apply. It's unlikely and uncommon in our world of course. However we aren't talking about our world and there's every sign that it has occurred here. Firstly there is never anyone telling them they don't have the authority in the areas they claim where they claim it, secondly they receive assistance from the state in relation to pursuing matters related to these areas, thirdly there are some states who we do know have said no to the extended jurisdiction and we can note the differences between their operations and actions in those states versus how they operate and act in others. While this is all circumstantial it makes a very clear picture that other states accept the Tower Law's claims to jurisdiction relating to those specific areas.
  5. Nope. Joining a group does not assign any role. No sovereign country asks any service from them. So, these pretend AS does not have any role. Teacher has a role as students ask for knowledge from them and they provide that public service. I really don't understand you at all. Nothing says you have to like or agree with what they do but what is the point of pretending things don't exist or happen when we have them clearly documented? Soverign countries ask them to negotiate treaties for them, many rulers and nobles ask them for counsel and the are asked for to aid with men who can channel. No matter how much you wish they didn't, and how much you think they get it wrong when they do, it doesn't change the fact that that's what happens. They do those things as Aes Sedai, if that's not acting in a role I'm not sure what is. No they don't, except in Tower. Anywhere else their laws and jurisdictions don't hold like US laws do not hold in Canada. What these pretend AS do is Bully outside their jurisdiction. Except that we see them hold numerous times. They hold in Ebou Dar when they're allowed to take the Bowl of the Winds, they hold in the Waste when Moiraine takes objects of the power from Rhuidean, they hold in Saldea when they take Mazrim Taim, they held in either Ghealdan or Murandy (I don't think it's made clear which) when they take Logain etc etc. I don't remember Teslyn being bullied into letting them take the bowl, nor do I remember the Aiel being bullied into letting them take things from Rhuidean, and people didn't seem unhappy about their assistance with Logain. So it's simply not true to say they only ever get what they want through bullying. Through Tower Law they claim jurisdiction over those things regardless of where they occur geographically, and this is recognised and complied with by most nations. As I've already mentioned laws can apply outside of the geographical jurisdiction in which they're made provided the other geographical jurisdiction agrees to have them apply. This is what we see here, the Tower Law wouldn't apply if people didn't agree to have it apply (Tear doesn't for example), but it does where the other nations agree that it will, their actions in allowing the Aes Sedai to take the objects of the power etc demonstrate their consent. So I guess it was still too complex for you then. Sorry, but there's no point me breaking it down any further, it's really not that difficult a point to follow.
  6. lol...people aren't respected for their roles or titles anymore. Deeds shall always speak louder than words. That's what makes someone respect people. It does take awareness to see beyond the obvious, of course, but some folk do see past a white robe on a doctor and seek a second opinion, for instance. While others see way past the black robes and crosses on the chest and keep their young boys as far away from those "priests" as they can heh heh... Of course they are. Everyone is taught to show respect to people who may or may not deserve it as people but who are entitled to it because of their position. It's very much part of how society runs. Aside from the judges already cited there's police, teachers, the military, all people who we are taught to respect when they are in their role regardless of what you think of them personally. Sure everyone doesn't want to play the game, but the pros and cons of that approach aren't really up for debate here, it's fairly irrelevant anyway, the basic point remains that people are accorded a type of respect by virtue of their roles, and additionally people in certain roles expect respect because of them. What people don't seem to want to acknowledge is that there is more than one type of respect. The respect accorded to people because of their deeds is one kind certainly, but there is also the kind accorded to people because of their role, which like it or not is just as real. And while the AS might not have any claim to one kind they do expect (and largely get) the other. These pretend AS has role?LOL. Like what? They provide no service to any society. And nobody respects them. They fear them, like Bully. There is nothing like respect for pretend position. Respect is alloted for positions that provides service to society as and when society asks for it. Police protects from criminals, Military protects from external threat, Teachers teach whoever wants knowledge they do not horde knowledge like these pretend AS. Being Aes Sedai is a role, just as being a teacher is a role, being a public servant is a role etc. At the very least they provide counsellors to people in every society in the Westlands, and they take care of men who can channel. Services that are requested of them, and in the case of men who can channel expected of them by society. No matter how much people dislike them everyone who can actually comprehend the text has to admit they do do something. Nothing says they have to like how they do it, or think they're doing enough, but pretending they do nothing at all ever is just making your arguments laughable because they're so clearly incorrect on the text. Also your whole 'pretend Aes Sedai' thing is fairly tired. You've been repeatedly challenged on it all of these threads you've posted in, repeatedly asked to provide some sort of backing to your claims, repeatedly asked to justify your assertions and you've never once done so (nor have you done so to the responses to the many, many posts you've made about the Crystal Throne being a binding chair), which I assume means you can't because there is nothing that actually supports you in that. Most of your arguments appear to have no substance or basis in fact at all. I realise people are being patient with you because you come across like you're about 10 years old but nobody's doing you any favours by letting you keep going at this point. Aes Sedai of the Third Age do not even qualify as public servants, simply because nobody has granted them with that power outside their jurisdiction perhaps, which would be limited to Tar Valon. I had already blown your last arguments about Cadsuane's abusive behavior concerning Tam with this simple word: jurisdiction. A judge can be respected but has no power outside his jurisdiction. Ditto for a scholar or an academic, except when outside their field of expertise. Aes Sedai have not been granted with power to serve "anyone" and have no jurisdiction over any territory outside their own, so their title means spit and they deserve no more respect than that which they earn to themselves. I don't now how you can hope to make any argument about jurisdiction stand when we have absolutely no clue what they laws are (and I suspect I'm one of the few who would find any interest in that). Without that kind of detail we can't know who has jurisdiction over what. However in the absence of laws we can look at custom and practice to be guided by that, and we can infer from what we do know of the laws. Tower Law seems to be unusual in that it grants Aes Sedai jurisdiction over specific 'areas', rather than general jurisdication over a location (although they would have that as well, localised in Tar Valon). We know they claim jurisdiction over men who can channel, objects of the one power and Aes Sedai themselves under Tower Law for example, regardless of where those are found. Of course we don't know if everyone else agrees that that's acceptable, however from the lack of people telling them they can't do whatever they're doing, through to the general support and assistance they recieve in doing it, it appears that their jurisdiction over the 'areas' regardless of location is generally recognised. Yes. Tower Law. That is Law of the Bully. No one country can lawfully make a law to be obeyed by another country. They can force it though. That is the definition of Bully. So what the Tower Law gives according to your quote. jurisdiction over men who can channel. - This is the best of these worst Bully laws. Ideally they should have helped local authority to deal with them. If they have office in each capitol then that would be easier. But we know these pretend AS :) jurisdiction over objects of the one power - That is call thievery and hording. LOL lack of people telling them they can't do whatever they're doing - Because they are Bully. People in Randland cannot fight back because they do not have A'dam. Otherwise they definitely would have done it already. So we agree Tower Law gives them jurisdiction over men who can channel and objects of the one power? Nothing says you have to like the laws, I certainly don't like all the laws of my country, that doesn't change the fact that they're laws though. They clearly have made laws that they can and do enforce in other countries, so I'm not sure where you're getting it from that they can't. One country's laws can be enforced in another country, provided they agree to do so, and there is every indication that the other countries agree to allow the Aes Sedai to have jurisdiction over these matter within their nations. As discussed repeatedly expecting them to set up offices all over the place is pointless. They don't have sufficient numbers to do it, they would be in personal danger to do so, and any political change would see all of their work immediately undone anyway. They have made themselves available and acessible in Tar Valon and they do have advisors all over the place helping local authorities. Although they're damned if they do and damned if they don't according to you. You say they should be all over the place helping, but when they're all over the place helping they're interfering bullies. You can't have it both ways. It is not reasonable to expect these women to take risks you wouldn't expect of a normal person just because they happen to be able to channel. Everyone spends so much time crying over Aes Sedai infringing human rights (and unable to prove that they do), well what about theirs? And it's nice that you've finally shown your true colours and admitted you'd just rather see women who can channel treated as animals and slaves. How you can see that as a proportionate response to someone being annoying and bossy I would really love to hear. On your 'people can't fight back' comment the reality of course is that some can and have chosen to say no to the Aes Sedai, who have then respected that no. And the other reality is that nobody has to 'fight back' because the Oaths leave Aes Sedai incable of fighting first. People are not petrified of Aes Sedai and just too scared to do anything about it because they don't have an A'dam option. They are choosing not to say no. They are choosing to have their counsel, their aid with men who can channel and to take advantage of their political connections and other advantages of association with Aes Sedai. Tanchico is held by the Seanchan, Bandar Eban is right next to the Seanchan, pretty much anything down the entire West side of the map is out, they can't go there. We're talking small numbers of Aes Sedai because that's all they have, and a hospital would be out and out declaring where they are so they aren't going to take too many risks. Caemlyn, Cairhein, Illian would all be logical, Tear, Amadacia and Far Madding are also out, I'd say Murandy is also out, so that really leaves the the Borderlands. There's still a lot of travelling involved to get to any of those places from outside the capitals with all the risks involved. Although it would make more sense to simply use Traveling to take people to Tar Valon if they want Aes Sedai healing at this point rather than have hospital outposts. Of course that isn't as visible so while they may well heal more it's unlikely to change their reputation at this point. Are you confused or you are trying to confuse us :) We are talking about pre Travelling pre Seanchan so nothing is Held by Seanchan and Elmandarb has all valid points. These pretend AS bungled and Bullied for 3000 years. That is the crux of it. The person who suggested those places gave a hypothetical scenario that they were sick in the Tanchico area *now*. My point was that if *they* got sick there even if the Aes Sedai had hospitals they would still have to travel as the hospitals wouldn't be in Seanchan areas. The overall point being that even if he Aes Sedai set up the maximum number of hospitals possible the vast majority of people would still have to travel a significant distance to get to one and be healed, so they would still need to be prepared, and able to, travel. The tangent itself comes from the discussion over the logisitics of healing, and how it would or could have occured. I hope that's less confusing for you. However lets say they had a hospital in Tanchico instead of one in the Western Borderlands, it's still not really going to increase the numbers of people being healed. It will make healing acessible to people in the Tanchico area who need it, but then the people in the Western Borderlands don't have access to healing. They don't have the numbers and strength to do both.
  7. lol...people aren't respected for their roles or titles anymore. Deeds shall always speak louder than words. That's what makes someone respect people. It does take awareness to see beyond the obvious, of course, but some folk do see past a white robe on a doctor and seek a second opinion, for instance. While others see way past the black robes and crosses on the chest and keep their young boys as far away from those "priests" as they can heh heh... Of course they are. Everyone is taught to show respect to people who may or may not deserve it as people but who are entitled to it because of their position. It's very much part of how society runs. Aside from the judges already cited there's police, teachers, the military, all people who we are taught to respect when they are in their role regardless of what you think of them personally. Sure everyone doesn't want to play the game, but the pros and cons of that approach aren't really up for debate here, it's fairly irrelevant anyway, the basic point remains that people are accorded a type of respect by virtue of their roles, and additionally people in certain roles expect respect because of them. What people don't seem to want to acknowledge is that there is more than one type of respect. The respect accorded to people because of their deeds is one kind certainly, but there is also the kind accorded to people because of their role, which like it or not is just as real. And while the AS might not have any claim to one kind they do expect (and largely get) the other. Aes Sedai of the Third Age do not even qualify as public servants, simply because nobody has granted them with that power outside their jurisdiction perhaps, which would be limited to Tar Valon. I had already blown your last arguments about Cadsuane's abusive behavior concerning Tam with this simple word: jurisdiction. A judge can be respected but has no power outside his jurisdiction. Ditto for a scholar or an academic, except when outside their field of expertise. Aes Sedai have not been granted with power to serve "anyone" and have no jurisdiction over any territory outside their own, so their title means spit and they deserve no more respect than that which they earn to themselves. I don't now how you can hope to make any argument about jurisdiction stand when we have absolutely no clue what they laws are (and I suspect I'm one of the few who would find any interest in that). Without that kind of detail we can't know who has jurisdiction over what. However in the absence of laws we can look at custom and practice to be guided by that, and we can infer from what we do know of the laws. Tower Law seems to be unusual in that it grants Aes Sedai jurisdiction over specific 'areas', rather than general jurisdication over a location (although they would have that as well, localised in Tar Valon). We know they claim jurisdiction over men who can channel, objects of the one power and Aes Sedai themselves under Tower Law for example, regardless of where those are found. Of course we don't know if everyone else agrees that that's acceptable, however from the lack of people telling them they can't do whatever they're doing, through to the general support and assistance they recieve in doing it, it appears that their jurisdiction over the 'areas' regardless of location is generally recognised. The Aes Sedai go through long years of training and various tests before being made Aes Sedai. Just being able to channel isn't enough. In that the Aes Sedai's path to becoming Aes Sedai is relatively similar to the path of a civil law judge, who are career judges, rather than elected officials or appointments from amongst barristers. Tanchico is held by the Seanchan, Bandar Eban is right next to the Seanchan, pretty much anything down the entire West side of the map is out, they can't go there. We're talking small numbers of Aes Sedai because that's all they have, and a hospital would be out and out declaring where they are so they aren't going to take too many risks. Caemlyn, Cairhein, Illian would all be logical, Tear, Amadacia and Far Madding are also out, I'd say Murandy is also out, so that really leaves the the Borderlands. There's still a lot of travelling involved to get to any of those places from outside the capitals with all the risks involved. Although it would make more sense to simply use Traveling to take people to Tar Valon if they want Aes Sedai healing at this point rather than have hospital outposts. Of course that isn't as visible so while they may well heal more it's unlikely to change their reputation at this point.
  8. Police if and where needed? Honestly not sure what you're getting at with that, or if you've just totally missed my point. I was drawing an analogy between roles that are respected because the nature of the role and not necessarilly the person in it and the type of respect the Aes Sedai expect. The Aes Sedai expect to be respected because of their role, because they are Aes Sedai, not because they have warders or live for a long time, so I just don't see why that's an issue. Not gonna lie I laughed so hard at those. You haven't had much exposure to academics or judges have you? Perhaps I'm just being overly cynicle, but that sums up a lot of my recollections from my time at University. Either way it gave me a chuckle, thanks ^.^ They are generally public servants (excepting academics at private institutions which aren't common where I am and I admittedly forgot about when posting the analogy) i.e. servants of the public, i.e. servants of all. That's all Servants of All ever meant, even in the AoL Servants of All was akin to public servant, not a litteral servant. Right, but since at absolute maximum capacity there's still not likely to be a hospital in Arad Doman's capital, you'd be dead regardless. After all they only have enough people for a few and why would they put one so close to the Seanchan, and who would be liekly to put their hand up to staff it if they tried?
  9. Even if they did the absolute maximum possible hospital wise it would mean long journeys and likely inter country travel for the vast majority of people. The Aes Sedai weren't particularly welcome under Morgase. Any upset or change of leadership or in the power balance or just any rulers personal gripe and they're gone. No protection, not assistance and whatever they've set up is lost. If they rely on other governments for bodyguards etc they end up in a position of dependance on the monarch, a monarch they may need to negotiate a treaty with, or that they may need to work with in some other way where they do need their independance. And again if they establish a working relationship of that sort with one monarch what happens when the monarch changes? They'll lose everything again. They do do charitable work, just not how you think it should be done, it clearly hasn't been enough to counter the Whitecloak claims. I can see what you're saying in that they need to make it more visible, and there's merit to that, but again with the numbers they have how visible could they be? Particularly when they rely on people's consent to do things like healing, which is not in general very forthcoming. There is every indication that they do go out looking for girls who can channel already, at the very least when on their travels (and they travel a lot) they keep their eye out and bring people back. Or did you mean they should go with tax collectors to do charitable work? If so who would staff the hospitals? Who would do all the other stuff that needs doing? Would they be trading off doing actual practical work against visibility? And is that particularly ethical? They could heal more at a hospital or by staying put in the WT, but in traveling around healing they'd be seen as doing more more although the reality would be they'd likely heal less. I'm sure people would be howling if they chose to travel around and make themselves look good at the expense of not actually getting as much done.
  10. I have no problem with the Aes Sedai staying safe and sound in the White Tower. I have a problem with the Aes Sedai staying safe and sound in the White Tower and feeling entitled to be listened to and respected by the rest of the world. Respect is earned. Some individual sisters have done things to deserve respect. As a whole, the White Tower has not. So you don't think an academic should be listened to and respected? You don't think a judge should be listened to and respected? They stay safe and sound and I assure you they expect respect. Respect can come from a variety of sources and one is through respect of the position/office somebody holds, which is how I see the respect the Aes Sedai expect. Aes Sedai is a role/office and it's one they expect to be respected. People will of course argue that they were given their office as a result of something inherant (the ability to channel), however the training and testing process is actually meant to be them earning their position and the respect that is given with that, people who don't earn it are turned away. The counter argument is of course that respect for a role is only given when that role is doing something worthy of respect. We could probably argue that all day, I think Aes Sedai acting in that role do enough to merit the role of Aes Sedai being respected. Other people will disagree. I don't have the books with me so this is going from memory, but they said it was because he was injured doing something foolish and to just heal him right up would not teach him to not be foolish in the future, is that right? Hospitals do that with patients at times now, it's been somewhat controversial particularly where it's happened with transplant patients in particular a bit. The general reasoning goes why should someone get an organ when they're just going to waste it (by smoking/remaining obese or whatever else). It's less controversial and more common with elective procedures, many doctors are unwilling to give someone something like a gastric band if they haven't made any attempt to lose weight themselves for example. Welcome to every public hospital or government department anywhere ever. Do you mean the way the Oath rod was used? I'm genuinely not sure what you mean here, if that is what you mean it was good for uncovering Darkfriends, but clearly not good for keeping them out. There are a lot of reasons. Some came to the Aes Sedai as Darkfriends (Liandrin), some converted as a means to getting ahead (Sheriam), some had no choice (Verin). But you're right proportionately a lot of Aes Sedai were Darkfriends which indicates something was wrong, and that could either be that the BA was very effective in what they did within the WT, given that people joined to get influence and personal position it probably was, or other things such as the power corrupting type concept. More likely a combination of factors. The unifying thing with most Darkfriends is selfishness, so the real question is why were so many Aes Sedai so selfish? I do think in general that comes from their isolation, they are isolated from society, partly due to the dislike and distrust and partly due to something they simply can't help, their longevity. They don't have real ties to the world, they can't really have normal relationships etc (in the past the could have had with male Aes Sedai who were in the same position), and it's very hard to maintain any sort of ties when you outlive everyone, and so they are left with all they have being themselves. The ones we see the least selfishness in tend to be the ones who've been more effective at maintaining their ties to the world. If anything I'd say the distance, coldness etc came at least in part that seperation from normal people and lives they go through, something of a coping mechanism, until finally it became tied in to what it actually means to be Aes Sedai, and now it's just this self perpetuating cycle. Although I can see how it would be useful to them to continue it and to encourage that in their members. If they are going to act as judges, or negotiators or the male channeler police they need to be seen as seperate, impartial, aloof etc.
  11. I wouldnt take the trip either its too far and theres a good chance they will die along the way. And you making that choice for yourself is their fault how? If you wouldn't make the trip to Tar Valon are you any more likely to make the trip to anywhere else they set up a hospital? It carries the same risks. As discussed above they really only have the numbers for a handful of hospitals which they'd run at high personal risk. If someone wants Aes Sedai healing they're going to have to travel for it. As you've pointed out a lot of people would rather not, which again raises the issue of whether expending the manpower and resources on setting up the hospitals everyone keeps going on about is actually sensible. well it would be a start, as well as a open recruitment house, since women who are curious about AS would end up checkin it out, and during a shift change (which would likely happen every so often) they could transport a whole bunch of potential channellers with them. not to mention it would serve as a very good base of operations for other ajahs coming into the area. A start to what? You yourself said you wouldn't bother to go to one if it was set up because the traveling is too dangerous. How would your idea have worked without traveling? Don't forget they've only had that for a couple of months of the last 3000 years. They do appear to send people out occasionally, and they bring people back, which is about all they could really do without travelling. How can/could they set up in small groups anywhere temporarily and easily with things like the Whitecloaks etc? They're more able to do so now, and even now only in some places, but during long periods of the last 3000 years it wouldn't have been possible. You're blaming them for other people not taking responsibility for themselves. It's not like they're hard to find if you do want to know more. If someone can't even be bothered to take that much initiative how good a recruit do you think they'd be? They did open the novice book and a lot of older people expressed interest and did take the initiative, and the Aes Sedai took them on. I'm not seeing what they did wrong there except not doing it sooner, and there were originally reasons for that, although over time that is one of the things that became a rule for the sake of it rather than reflecting any real need. Of course that leaves aside the issue of people with the spark who die, but even with travelling and active recruiting etc I don't see how you'd get around that without having a societal structure like either the Seanchan or the Aiel. They can't be everywhere at once, recruiting parties simply won't catch everyone, a lot of wilders don't even realise they're channeling for example.
  12. What is their full potential though? People seem to credit them with things they don't really have. You say they should set up hospitals. Ok, there's ~1000 Aes Sedai, and the Yellow Ajah is one of the smallest as healing as a Talent and not everyone can do it, so lets say ~100 yellows for arguments sake. Some of those need to stay in the Tower doing admin work (ajah head/sitters etc), and some need to stay in the tower to train novices/accepted and provide healing to people who come to the Tower since they have an open door policy about that. That leaves maybe 80 Yellows at most to get these hospitals going. They individually can't heal 24/7 so you need groups of them together, and without travelling (which they didn't have at the time) they're going to need to be decent sized groups as some will be gone taking ages to travel around at any one time or some will need a break or have to attend to something else etc, so you get maybe 8 groups, making 8 hospitals. While 8 hospitals is still more than zero hospitals it is hardly going to cover the world with healers and solve its health problems. The poor or more rural people are still not going to get healed. Not that they want to be healed by witches anyway. Then add in the fact that they're simply banned in some places (Tear, Amidacia) and that the Whitecloaks are going to follow them around trying to kill them wherever they openly establish themselves, and in small groups they'd be sitting ducks to set up permanently anywhere, then you end up with maybe one Aes Sedai hospital in some of the larger capitals with each only able to really see to the most serious cases and each one subject to near constant harassment from people who think they're witches. I have no idea why the Yellows aren't rushing to do that, it sounds so enjoyable and personally safe. So instead they have an open door healing policy where they heal anyone who comes to the WT. You'll note they're not constantly overwhelmed by floods of sick people, which suggests people don't really want Aes Sedai healing except in the worst of cases anyway, which again makes it questionable as to whether setting up those hospitals is really the best possible use of time and resources. I don't think it's accurate to say nobody remembers the breaking, people clearly have plenty of myths/ledgends about that time that they hold on to, which are arguably more dangerous than the actual truth. Add that in to laws against them in some countries, the fallout from Hawkwing (discussed above) and the Whitecloaks and there's plenty of reason they won't be trusted regardless of what they do. 80 people out healing when someone will let them isn't going to stack up to tens of thousands against them, plus laws, plus rumors plus all the half remembered mis-remembered history. It might change some people's attitudes sure, but I doubt it would be the huge societal shift you seem to think would happen. As above you're really expecting them to do things they're not capable of. They have actually done what they could, there's plenty of examples of the Ajahs doing what they're 'meant' to be doing, e.g. Greens in the Trolloc Wars, they Treaties the Greys have negotiated etc. What other services should they or could they have performed given the restrictions placed on them, their low numbers and strength and the hatred of the general population for them? Healers have healed where they could, they've opened the WT to everyone for healing if they want it (which they largely don't). Are you suggesting they go around forcing healing onto people? They should interfere with peoples bodies without their consent? I'm sure that would earn them no end of goodwill. It's not really reasonable to say that because they can channel they have an obligation to spend their entire lives unhappy, uncomfortable and in personal danger. If they choose that path for themselves individually then great, but forcing them to do so is only one step away from just clapping an A'dam onto them. That I'll give you. Their recruiting and training is problematic and I see that issue as directly stemming from those. That it goes back to the structure of the organisation for me thogugh, that's always going to be a problem within a bureaucracy, people aren't encouraged to be different, rules become an end in themselves etc. Although as I said before every organising structure has flaws, and that's always a case of the lesser of the evils to some extent. At least the Aes Sedai structure does allow for people who are strong enough to push/innovate to do so, and those people often end up well respected within the organisation (Cadsuane and Moiraine for example).
  13. Is comparing the AoL Aes Sedai and the TA Aes Sedai really in any way a fair comparison? Again I'll refer back to Aginor as the "chip designer dropped into the seventeenth century", he was useless in the TA, despite being one of the most brilliant scientists in the AoL, because he just didn't have any of the base tools he needed to work with. The TA doesn't even have the building blocks of AoL society. It doesn't have the science, the records, the facilities, or even the ability to create those without again going back further and creating the things they need to create those things and so on back. Why doesn't it have those tools? Because a gigantic disaster, which was in a very large part the making of the AoL Aes Sedai, destroyed them all, wiped out the records and so on, and left humanity in no state to pick up where they left off. And then of course there's the other differences in society. If the Aes Sedai had centres of healing would people even go to them? Most people seem to refuse Aes Sedai healing when offered the choice. The TA Aes Sedai live in a society that still carries enourmous scars from the breaking, something you can see reflected in people's attitudes to Aes Sedai. They are only human, something we see again and again, yet people expect them to not be so. Any human who was as hated and shunned as the Aes Sedai have been would pull away from that. Add that to the fact that they are incredibly isolated from normal existance, they have no real ties to the world, they outlive their families and other connections to the world, and the men that were previously their companions are now gone, can anyone blame them from retreating to what is quite literally their own ivory tower? I am *amazed* they have actually managed to keep together in any respect, and while I won't disagree they are very often misguided and their actions can have unhelpful results I don't think it is done with malice generally (obviously there are exceptions). They do have some real desire to do good generally, how they go about it is problematic and flawed, but also fairly understandable given their circumstances. The recent discoveries, skills and Talents that account for the supergirls etc have been explained away by the concept of the old things returning being a sign of the last battle, the elements that have made the new things workable simply haven't been there in the past. Numbers have declined drastically, strength in the power has declined drastically, those things are fairly strongly linked to the lack of progress. Is it suprising travelling wasn't discovered in an environment where less than 10 Aes Sedai even had the strength to make the weave? Added to which a lot of the new things can be traced back to the knowledge of the Forsaken in one way or another, something which Aes Sedai have not have had access to previously. I'm not saying they're a perfect organisation. They're very clearly not. They're a bureaucracy and bureaucracy is flawed as an organising structure (although what isn’t?), and often results in the things we see happening in the WT. But given that how they are/what they have become in the TA is more understandable if viewed in context. That doesn't mean they don't need a shakeup, but they do actually appear to be getting one.
  14. In before Taim is Moridin. You left out the other part of the quote, the bit about using proxies. If anything that suggests Demandred is having someone else act for him. There were also numerous other things occuring in the South at the time. A lot of your evidence mounts up to Taim was number 2 and Demandred was number 2 so Taim must be Demandred. Aside from the logical flaws in that reasoning have you considered the alternate explanation that with the emphasis on wheels and cycles and so on RJ created a scenario where Rand was in a similar position to LTT was, and as such gave him Taim as the number 2 just behind him in most things where LTT had Demandred in that role. This is actually one point. Again as above. Feel free to cite some examples of RJ lying in this manner. Is he? Cool. Could you prove that? Because people over in the Black Tower thread aren't sure that's what it is. Maybe you've got some evidence the rest of us haven't read since nobody else has any confirmation on what is actually happening at the Black Tower. It seems highly unlikely that Taim, Moridin and Demandred are the only 3 male channelers on the dark side in the world. You yourself just mentioned men at the Black Tower being turned. Could it have been one of them? Or something else (lots of speculation about the men the Aiel send into the Blight for example), or just another male channeler Darkfriend, like Kisman. I believe Moridin said he was using it elsewhere, indicating Moridin's involvement in the BT. Although I don't have the book handy to look it up right now.
  15. You keep mentioning that. Time to back it up. Find a quote that says they're not Aes Sedai. Rand says he was the only one properly raised by the standards of the AoL, he doesn't say he is the only Aes Sedai, he treats them as Aes Sedai and refers to them as Aes Sedai. By the existing rules, which are what counts, they are Aes Sedai. You would make a good current third age 'Aes Sedai' imo. It's very convenient or perhaps disturbring that you ignore what Aes Sedai actually means. If I told you that building was the color white when it's actually the color green, are you going to believe me just because I said it was? You're doing the same thing here. These woman at the White Tower are not Aes Sedai (Servants of All). If you want to blindly believe they're Aes Sedai because they themselves think they are, then by all means continue to do so; just don't ask me to wear your blinders as well. There's really no indication anywhere that they aren't Aes Sedai. They're clearly not what you think Aes Sedai should be, but that doesn't actually change the fact that they are Aes Sedai. Pretty much everyone in the books, new Rand included, recognise them as Aes Sedai, they are Aes Sedai. Nothing says you have to like them or approve of them. And while you've for some reason jumped back a few weeks to pick out a quote of mine you seem to have ignored all the other discussion that went on around it. This idealised conception of Aes Sedai you and some others seem to think of as being the 'real' Aes Sedai never existed, not even in the AoL. Aes Sedai serve all in the sense that a public servant or an elected politician serves all now. The AoL was a totally different society, with different goals, values and so on. Society was structured around helping others as a way to gain personal status and power. Even the majority of the Forsaken did so, all bar Mesaana, Moghedien and Balthamel have the honorific third name gained through community service. Yet we know they had crime amongst Aes Sedai (binding chairs and rods), we know that they had politics and pettiness (the events chronicled in A Strike at Shayol Ghul), we know they were arrogant via Rand's memories, and we even know that the most noted ascetic of the age despised everyone for not being able to live up to her standards, which in itself suggests everyone wasn't as clean and wonderful as people try project onto them. The AoL Aes Sedai have, in every instance we've seen them, been shown to be just as human as the TA Aes Sedai. As people have already discussed in the thread the organisation has changed over time as it has adapted to circumstances, which is hardly surprising given the breaking. But the TA Aes Sedai are just as much Aes Sedai as the AoL Aes Sedai, even though neither of them would meet this ideal people seem to have constructed around an absolutely literal interpretation of the name. The AoL Aes Sedai are closer to the ideal, partly due to the nature of the society they existed in and partly due to the fact that we haven’t seen as much detail about them. But on close inspection of the evidence we do have of the AoL there is no reason to think they were any better or worse than the TA Aes Sedai, just different due to the circumstances. Did the AoL Aes Sedai get more done? Absolutely. But again we have to look at the differences in the socieites. RJ described Aginor as a "chip designer dropped into the seventeenth century" when someone asked why he hadn't created more shadowspawn etc once he was released from the bore. He would have had to actually start from the bottom, with just creating simple things like the basic science. The AoL Aes Sedai had access to that science, to the facilities etc that they needed to do what they did. Expecting the TA Aes Sedai to do the same without the resources (which they don't have due pretty directly to the AoL Aes Sedai helpfully serving everyone by drilling the Bore and then breaking the world), is just silly. There was an excellent quote from Robert Jordan posted in one of the threads where this was discussed earlier. It was something about how the AoL was a utopia compared to the TA (I believe it drew the analogy of our society seeming a utopia if viewed by someone from hundreds of years ago), but that didn't mean it was actually a perfect society. If anyone knows where I can find that I'd appreciate the link.
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