why all the hating on Egwene

[tntviper1]

i am curious most threads bash her but i think she is a young women trying to do whats right in most cases, she is one of the most powerful Aes Sedai and she has to slap around a bunch that are wayyy older and make them see the "light"

 

IMHO

[Jon Paul]

i am curious most threads bash her but i think she is a young women trying to do whats right in most cases, she is one of the most powerful Aes Sedai and she has to slap around a bunch that are wayyy older and make them see the "light"

 

IMHO

 

Egwene is heavily bashed because she's Aes Sedai to the bone. She's an arrogant, sexist, hypocritical, manipulating cow. Sometimes I wish Rand would just travel to the Hall of the Sitters, bring a seat along, sit down and tell them "You know what, fine, have it your way. Forget that I am the Pattern's self-chosen correction mechanism. You do it." Love to see how long it takes for them to come begging.

[buckeyebull64]

It's the fact that she knows Rand, and yet ONLY sees whats bad in him.

 

That and, for me anyway, and this goes for Eleyne too, is they won't ask for help from Rand or Mat or anyone else. I understand pride and all that very well, but we're kinda on a schedual here. Let them help you do what you have to, then help out yourself.

[NetSlider]

i am curious most threads bash her but i think she is a young women trying to do whats right in most cases, she is one of the most powerful Aes Sedai and she has to slap around a bunch that are wayyy older and make them see the "light"

 

IMHO

 

If you read ToM go to those threads and read her thread. It's all clear there.

[Jblaylock]

I have always really liked Egwene. She's a badass. I mean, in the Gathering Storm when she was stading in the gaping whole in the white tower, several stories up, blasting the crap out of some Raken-riding seanchan... that was just bad to tha bizzone. How can you not like someone who is able to do that?

[Feral]

Well personally I admire a lot that Egwene does, but I have 3 main problems with her.

 

1. Her attitude toward Nynaeve in the later books. Firstly, I don't like anyone picking on Nyn cos she's my favourite character and secondly I think it's just unrealistic. After growing up together for how ever many years, with Nynaeve holding the more dominant postion due to age and her position as Wisdom, I don't think their roles would suddenly reverse so extremely no matter what. I mean I can understand Egwene becoming Nyn's equal, but I don't understand why Nyn would allow herself to be intimidated by someone she had babysat. I personally would find it impossible to genuinely see Egwene as a superior if I was in Nyn's position. Besides that, Nyn stood up to Moiraine and had a go at her plenty of times, and that was before she even knew she could channel and saw Aes Sedai as something frightening and mysterious. Plus there's the fact that Nynaeve is the strongest in the power.

 

2. Her attitude towards Rand and the Ashaman is very prejudiced and arrogant.

 

3. The way she couldn't tolerate being around Elaida and had to spill the soup in TGS. I know it seems like a little thing, but after all the nonsense she'd taken from other Aes Sedai, it seems silly to me that she suddenly decided she couldn't control her temper anymore. I don't know, it just got to me.

[Darth Krewl]

First off, Egwene isn't even the most powerful female channeler in the WoT universe. Several stand above her, such as Nynaeve and Alivia. And, Aviendha and Elayne are just as powerful as her (if not more so).

 

Secondly, power is not wisdom and experience.

 

In Star Wars, Anakin Skywalker is far more powerful than Yoda and Obi-Wan combined. But the latter kicks his ass because he's far wiser and more experienced. Ditto for Neo in the Matrix. He's more powerful, but Morpheus kicks his ass easily at first, because he's far more experienced with the laws of the Matrix than "The One".

 

All these characters have to learn and progress as they go along. In TWoT universe, most of the protagonists are young adults, between their late teens and early 20's. Therefore, they tend to be as infuriating as we all were at that age. They are prone to believe themselves the be all end all's of the Randland and to make mistakes, based on their youth and inexperience. Hence the reason why Egwene was raised Amyrlin in the first place. The Forsaken saw her as easy to control, due to her age.

 

She was able to overcome that only thanks to her training, with the Wise Ones first and then, under Siuan's tutelage, precisely because she feared to be seen as nothing other than a figurehead and a puppet, even when she couldn't even begin to suspect just whom might have been trying to pull her strings.

 

That being said, the fact that she believes herself above the Dragon Reborn (when she is clearly not, her position not withstanding), that she knows better than Rand and that she's got to bring him under control is, frankly, laughable.

 

This would be understandable in the case of far older, more experienced Aes Sedai (all those who have sought to control and manipulate Rand, beginning with Moiraine) even though that was infuriating to most as it were. Now, to see this girl, who's not only far more inexperienced than those peers of hers, but also younger than Rand himself, is unbelievable.

 

Even when Rand is to be perceived as a madman, Egwene has to be just as crazy if she really believes that she's the one who must lead the Dragon Reborn to Tarmon Gai'don. This is a fallacy. No one is supposed to lead Rand but Rand himself. And any character smart enough should recognize that, the way Moiraine did, when she realized that she was supposed to help guide Rand, instead of trying to manipulate and control his every move.

 

Personally, this is what I dislike greatly about Egwene al'Vere. Though I do not hate her. I dislike all Aes Sedai of the Third Age (hey it's not my fault! I'm not to blame for Jordan making these women such insufferable bitches lol) and there's one or two of them that I dislike far more than Egwene.

[Frostmuse]

To be fair, she's got a lot of the same problems that Hermione from the Harry Potter books does: The number of people who are actually stronger, more skilled and capable of proving her wrong on any matter can be counted on one hand, so she's expected to be the perfect hero to go along with the power. Except she isn't. When you've always tried to be the best, and always succeeded nomatter what has been thrown against you, and nobody else has come even close to your level... well, ego happens.

 

(That, and WoT-fandom's rampant misogyny, bashing female characters is considered a-OK like no other fandom I've ever been in. Even the Revan schism in KotOR fandom doesn't get this heated, and Star Wars fans can take any break from canon as a deadly insult)

[randsc]

Reacting against female characters is not necessarily misogyny. At least, it is not indicative of misogyny on the part of the READER.

 

Not all the female characters are bashed. Just the arrogant, childish, sexist and entitled ones. I'll leave you to decide which those are, but I will point out that there is little if any bashing of Nynaeve, Aviendha, Min, Moraine or even Tuon. One would think that if the problem were misogyny, it would be more widely observed. Just possibly, the problem is with the way certain characters are drawn?

 

Also, react strongly against certain female characters is natural and in no way misogynistic if those characters were (intentionally or unintentionally) written in such a way as to evoke negative reactions. In other words, blame the author for being unable to write strong female characters who don't come off as nasty little tyrants, before you blame the reader for not liking nasty little tyrants (who happen to be female.)

 

Finally, consider that a backlash against certain female characters may be a backlash against those characters' abiding female chauvinism. The entire WOT world is one where female characters are deeply sexist. One can argue that that sexism is natural, given the role of men in the Breaking. But that most female characters in this series at least start off as raging sexists is not, IMO, debatable.

 

Then, of course, consider the hypocrisy of those who complain about the so-called misogyny of the fans. There exists a massive double standard. When I see the spluttering outrage that certain posters on these forums exhibit when discussing the "misogyny" of WOT fan-dom, I can amuse myself by imagining the reactions if a male ruler held one of the female characters in a position similar to that Tylin held Mat in. What do you think? Would it be objectionanble if Egwene had, after having been captured by the Seanchan, been tied to a bed and raped at knifepoint? If yes, why is it OK for Tylin to do that to Mat?

[Zentari]

To be fair, she's got a lot of the same problems that Hermione from the Harry Potter books does: The number of people who are actually stronger, more skilled and capable of proving her wrong on any matter can be counted on one hand, so she's expected to be the perfect hero to go along with the power. Except she isn't. When you've always tried to be the best, and always succeeded nomatter what has been thrown against you, and nobody else has come even close to your level... well, ego happens.

Agreed.If she was called out more then I bet she would be much more pleasant as a character.

 

(That, and WoT-fandom's rampant misogyny, bashing female characters is considered a-OK like no other fandom I've ever been in. Even the Revan schism in KotOR fandom doesn't get this heated, and Star Wars fans can take any break from canon as a deadly insult)

Um,no.To be frank , it's no surprise that misogyny is so rampant given how the books are practically oozing with characters behaving themselves in such a manner (read: misandry ).Back-lash is to be expected and it only grows worse when it's not confronted with.

 

Here's an interesting question: If the gender roles in WoT were reversed , would the fans bash the males ? I'm sure as hell they would , not to mention that the books wouldn't have been published in the first place.

[OptimusPrime]

She tries to be kickass but just isnt.

[Darth Krewl]

(That, and WoT-fandom's rampant misogyny, bashing female characters is considered a-OK like no other fandom I've ever been in. Even the Revan schism in KotOR fandom doesn't get this heated, and Star Wars fans can take any break from canon as a deadly insult)

 

As a male fan of fantasy/fiction, I LOVE Galadriel and Éowyn in TLotR. I love Daenerys Targaryen and Catelyn Stark in ASoIaF. I love Padmé and Leia in Star Wars, along with every single female Jedi. I love Evey in V for Vendetta. I love Trinity in the Matrix. I could go on and on. I also dislike many a female character (Cersei Lannister in ASoIaF comes to mind right now, for instance) and it's got nothing to do with their gender, but with their personality, behavior and deeds.

 

And because of this, I do admit that I don't care or even dislike almost all other female characters in TWoT and that has nothing to do with misogyny. It has everything to do with the way Jordan wrote most of his female characters. The point is, you make a character likable (male or female) and people will like them. You make them as obnoxious, arrogant and pedantic as most of Jordan's women and chances are most people won't like them.

 

As for SW fans taking insult to any break from canon, I don't get up in arms when discussing anything about the Expanded Universe as part of canon or not and I am a lifelong fan of the saga, since the first film came out in '77. So, you see, not all SW fans are the same. But I digress. Just wanted to clarify that not all die-hard SW fans feel the same way about EU/canon controversies and that not all male readers are against Jordan female characters just out of misogyny, of course.

 

Oh, and btw, I do like Moiraine, Min and Lanfear quite a lot in WoT.

[Jon Paul]

(That, and WoT-fandom's rampant misogyny, bashing female characters is considered a-OK like no other fandom I've ever been in.)

 

This has nothing to do with gender. Egwene is simply a horrible person with really no redeeming qualities at all. I have often haired a complaint levelled at the WoT fandom and that is that we hate "strong female characters". I always laugh at that. Just because a woman is the CEO of some multi-national company, raking in thousands a year, that doesn't automatically make her a stronger woman that a mother of five in some rural backwater.

[Darth Krewl]

This has nothing to do with gender. Egwene is simply a horrible person with really no redeeming qualities at all. I have often haired a complaint levelled at the WoT fandom and that is that we hate "strong female characters". I always laugh at that. Just because a woman is the CEO of some multi-national company, raking in thousands a year, that doesn't automatically make her a stronger woman that a mother of five in some rural backwater.

 

Exactly.

 

There's a huge difference between a hero and an antihero. The fact that Egwene is fighting the Shadow, doesn't make her a heroin in the very least.

 

In addition to her need to control Rand (and wrong assumptions that, since she's Amyrlin, then she must be more important and know better than, well, none other than the Creator's champion and savior of his world, according to Prophecy) Egwene doesn't do things for the sake of all Randlanders. She does them for the sake of the White Tower. She's willing to oppose even her closest allies, if their take on things doesn't agree with her interests. She's self-centered and power-starved.

 

Now, to elude the risk of being accused of misogyny (lol) I'll compare Egwene to a couple of legitimate heroins in TWoT: Moiraine and Nynaeve.

 

The former, like I've already said, was smart enough to recognize her mistakes concerning wanting to control and manipulate Rand, humbling herself to rectify said mistakes and earn his trust. She was also more than willing to sacrifice herself for the good of all, like she did.

 

Nynaeve has proven time and again that, unlike Egwene, she doesn't give a hoot about Tower law, but about doing what she feels is right. She doesn't care about the accolades and is even willing to defy well-established Aes Sedai and question them (i.e: Cadsuane) whenever she feels like they are not doing the best they could. She's selfless (even to the point of letting her husband ride to apparently certain doom) and only cares about the common good.

 

Now, these two are about the only Aes Sedai whom Rand trusts. And it's no accident. It's by design; like Jordan wanted it. Otherwise, he would've written all those whom Rand distrusts differently. And that includes Egwene, of course.

[T00thbrush]

You do have to admit that the comparison is not quite fair in the sense that Egwene has to be a leader for the Aes Sedai, a responsibility neither Moiraine nor Nynaeve have to contend with. I love Nynaeve to bits, but you'd have to admit the White Tower would crumble into chaos if she was Amyrlin. Egwene is partly defined and constrained by her role and standing.

[David Selig]

She's a massive hypocrite, has treated her supposed closest friends Nyneave and Rand horribly on a number of occasions, and is really sexist even by Randland standards. Oh, and she's incredibly arrogant and unwilling to ever admit her mistakes. Is that enough reasons for you?

 

She summoned two brutes in TAR to physically abuse and scare out of her mind her best friend and mentor Nynaeve just to cover up her lie to the Wise Ones. And she giggled after that. This alone is enough for me to hate her.

[Darth Krewl]

You do have to admit that the comparison is not quite fair in the sense that Egwene has to be a leader for the Aes Sedai, a responsibility neither Moiraine nor Nynaeve have to contend with. I love Nynaeve to bits, but you'd have to admit the White Tower would crumble into chaos if she was Amyrlin. Egwene is partly defined and constrained by her role and standing.

 

Speaking strictly of Aes Sedai, you're 100% right, Tooth. But, speaking strictly of heroes alone, then I have to say that Moiraine and Nynaeve stand head and shoulders above Egwene. I was just referring to her in the strict sense of how a hero is viewed.

 

In fact, the problem I see with Egwene is that her youthful exuberance, inexperience and lack of wisdom (don't get me wrong, she's remarkable in all these areas for someone her age, but she's no Siuan, Moiraine, Gandalf or Yoda, for that matter) leads her to try to do too much by herself. And, IMO, she may very well end up doing much more harm than good, before it's all said and done. Unless, she learns to play her role and let the rest of the chips fall where they may, the way Siuan did when she was Amyrlin, IMO.

[mb]

Threads/posts that "bash" a character, I do not see that many on Egwene. Faile seems the most frequent.

 

Both I like (and have liked); as characters.

[Ozzie_aiel]

At the beginning of the series Egwene was good, a strong, young independant woman. She had her faults, but a character without any flaws tends to be 2 dimensional. In recent books though, she has turned into a bit of a manipulative tyrant.

 

If they could've continue the way she was at the start, and turned her into an Amyrlin who leads through example and force of personality, instead of scheming and manipulating her friends, allies and confidantes, I doubt there would be as much hate for her.

[Durinax]

What I really hate is her hypocritism. especially when she finds out the BA hunters are making people swear oaths to obey them and makes a huge deal out of it, when she has blackmailed oaths out of several sisters which is just as binding due to the oath of truth, then freaks out becasue Elaida was thinking about making all sisters swear obediance to the Amyrlin seat (not her personally, which is different than what egwene did).

 

Add to that the super AS to the bone that she has become, especially about controlling rand, how she seems to forget what she was taught earlier, and personally I really hate how she went to do the cuenduallar thing and how she gets away with taking a stupid risk like that, then Elayne does something a bit simpler (but arguably more necessary) and gets flamed.

 

Plus she does not care at all about her friends that I can see anymore

[blazetheearth]

Someone else on a thread I cant find ATM said something to the effect of her having no identity, not personality, but identity. When she is introduced, the first time we see her in TEoTW, she is almost a reflection of Nyn. As soon as she is out of the TR she lets her hair down and begins to imitate Moir. Goes to WT and begins to be taught to be like Moir. Fast forward 2 books (approx) and while learning to be a Dreamer, we see her imitating a WO, even in her thought as we see from her PoV. Then to Salidar, where she is thrust among a bunch of scheming plotting AS, and gets one of the best schemers to tutor her. Again she imitates what she sees and those people that she is around. No identity of her own, just copycatting others. I really liked that evaluation of her.

 

Personally, I don't hate her, but many of her attitudes and thoughts (from her PoV) disgust me more often than the thoughts of the Forsaken. I just don't care about her...at all. I knew RJ/BS wasn't going to allow it to happen (because tGS was supposed to be her shining moment) but I would have liked to have seen a scene where she got collared by the Seanchan again. I would really like to see her reaction. But she had to be allowed to fend off the attack since most of the other AS were useless. Again I didn't this to happen to her because I dislike her, just to make the character more interesting, because as it stands I'm just bored with her constant thinking herself superior. I think she needs a BIG fall to drive home to her that she is not perfect

[moratcorlm]

She's a massive hypocrite, has treated her supposed closest friends Nyneave and Rand horribly on a number of occasions, and is really sexist even by Randland standards. Oh, and she's incredibly arrogant and unwilling to ever admit her mistakes. Is that enough reasons for you?

 

She summoned two brutes in TAR to physically abuse and scare out of her mind her best friend and mentor Nynaeve just to cover up her lie to the Wise Ones. And she giggled after that. This alone is enough for me to hate her.

This. And what she does to Nynaeve later is worse.

Someone else on a thread I cant find ATM said something to the effect of her having no identity, not personality, but identity.

And this plays a role in it. As Rand says,

Egwene worked very hard at doing what she was about in proper fashion. Studying with the Wise Ones, she wore Aiel clothes; she might even be trying to adopt Aiel customs, for all he knew. It would be like her. But she worked hard at being a proper Aes Sedai all the time, even if she was only one of the Accepted. Aes Sedai usually kept a rein on their tempers, but they never ever gave anything away that they wanted to hide.

Which makes her arrogance stand on the fairly shaky ground of just being what she thinks she ought to do, a vague imitation rather than a justified stance.

 

And then there's the fact that practically nobody in-story calls her out on her egotism. They'll oppose her politically, sure, but even her staunchest opponents develop a grudging respect personally; her allies outright sing hosannas. Even Rand has people who will pop his bubble at times, and they continue to do so even after he turns into a ruthless psychotic who visibly exudes evil.

[Ihasavowel]

Someone else on a thread I cant find ATM said something to the effect of her having no identity, not personality, but identity.

I agree; I also cannot find that thread.

 

 

But more seriously, this is what annoys me about her too. It's not as though she grows or develops and becomes more of a self with added dimensions and hidden depths as a result of encountering different people and places, but instead, like she is an empty glass whose identity is determined by her current "social scene".

 

She's kind of shallow and hollow all at once.

[Agitel]

I never got the hate, either. I can certainly see faults in her character, and in that I mean her character as a person, not as a person in a book. She's incredibly young (18 as of TGS?) and, on top of that, a very skilled politician.

 

I can certainly see people getting frustrated with either of those.

 

But I can't hate her for that.

 

Honestly, if people are frustrated with Egwene I have a hard time understanding how they like anybody else in the world, considering how hypocritical and stubborn most of us are.

 

People forget also that characters don't exactly have all the information that we do, and I think we have a tendency to sympathize with Rand despite his eccentricities. Seriously, he was a half-mad man, known for being incredibly stubborn and hot-tempered, and, well, incredibly eccentric (muttering to himself, crazed look in his eyes, listening to voices that aren't there), and people wonder why people doubt his capability to lead the world?

[Jon Paul]

The difference between Rand and Egwene is that Rand was half-mad since about book 4 and then went fully over-board in The Gathering Storm. Egwene hasn't got that excuse.