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Caemlyn in the Epilogue. Poll.


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Caemlyn  

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  1. 1. Whose Fault Is Caemlyn



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None of the options are correct IMO. I'm going to go ahead and guess that it's going to be an important event that triggers a monumental decision or affects a major character in such a way that they react differently when the actual fate of the world (and not just Caemlyn) is at stake. Verin's intentions were good, her assumptions were the failure, but the end result will probably be to the best in the big picture. Seemingly bad events that turn out good is a theme of the entire series. Olver runs off when Mat's going to leave Ebou Dar, so he has to look for the little tyke. Had he not run off, Mat never would have had the wall fall on him and thus never would have married the Daughter of the Nine Moons (I assume that's an important thing). Had Verin been more convincing or if Elayne had mentioned the chance of an invasion to Mat, he might have decided to stay instead of getting Moiraine out of Finnland 'in time'. ('to save the world' makes that seem pretty important).

 

I'm more than a little curious how this will turn to the good.

 

Also, we don't know the extent of the damage/invasion yet. It could be as bad as the entire city fallen and all the Dragons secured by the shadow, or it could be as little as the first few hundred trollocs that started the fire and are still containable if they get there fast enough.

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Don't forget there are thousands of mercenaries outside of Caemlyn.

 

I am sure that it will probably come down to Olver (Gaidal) and Talmanes will organize a defense of the city and we will see the damage the dragons can do to the Trollocs. We get no impression that there are Dreadlords with the army.

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Don't forget there are thousands of mercenaries outside of Caemlyn.

 

I am sure that it will probably come down to Olver (Gaidal) and Talmanes will organize a defense of the city and we will see the damage the dragons can do to the Trollocs. We get no impression that there are Dreadlords with the army.

 

Olver is NOT Gaidal. it's been stated many many many times.

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Don't forget there are thousands of mercenaries outside of Caemlyn.

 

I am sure that it will probably come down to Olver (Gaidal) and Talmanes will organize a defense of the city and we will see the damage the dragons can do to the Trollocs. We get no impression that there are Dreadlords with the army.

 

 

Wouldn't it be great if they were actually DF.....MMHHHHAAAA!!!

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Also. Rand only put traps on the Waygates at Fal Dara and Shadar Logoth (and I'm assuming the latter Gate was destroyed along with the city). The others, he set guards on them, human and maybe Ogier. I have a feeling that Elder Haman removed the leaf for all of the Waygates he attended to, but Rand told him that Caemlyn had been taken care of. In KOD he said he had 'sealed' it, but in LOC, he told Elder Haman that he had just put guards on it.

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The will of the Pattern folks. This is what this series comes down to. There was a reason that will eventually come to light telling us why this had to happen this way. Yes, there were some errors in judgement all around, but there is too much chance that something else would have been impacted. I am reminded of the SGU episode this week where Chloe changed Destiny's direction to go back and pick up Rush. It was said after that Eli cannot determine if and what the long term consequenses will be and Rush said "There always are".

 

If Mat had opened the letter, oath or not, I agree that he would have done something about this attack. That could have delayed him just long enough that saving Moiraine would no longer have been possible. Or something could have happened to Thom or Noal in the battle. Of course, in relation to my point, the Pattern could have accounted for all of this and it is a moot point to argue it.

 

Just remember that RJ/BS/the Pattern have a plan and we will see a reason and impact in the next book.

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The will of the Pattern folks. This is what this series comes down to. There was a reason that will eventually come to light telling us why this had to happen this way. Yes, there were some errors in judgement all around, but there is too much chance that something else would have been impacted. I am reminded of the SGU episode this week where Chloe changed Destiny's direction to go back and pick up Rush. It was said after that Eli cannot determine if and what the long term consequenses will be and Rush said "There always are".

 

If Mat had opened the letter, oath or not, I agree that he would have done something about this attack. That could have delayed him just long enough that saving Moiraine would no longer have been possible. Or something could have happened to Thom or Noal in the battle. Of course, in relation to my point, the Pattern could have accounted for all of this and it is a moot point to argue it.

 

Just remember that RJ/BS/the Pattern have a plan and we will see a reason and impact in the next book.

 

Generally agree, except for the part about Mat being delayed in rescuing Moiraine. Verin's letter speaks of destroying the Waygate, which could be done in a relatively short time. Instead Mat chose to wait weeks for Verin's specified timeframe to run out so he wouldn't have to read that letter. He actually rescued Moiraine later than he would have if he just hadn't been so paranoid.

 

What if that letter had contained information about some danger that his sister Bodewin was in at the Tower? His blanket judgement that any letter from Verin must be weaseled around is irrational. People need to quit making excuses for his poor behaviour.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf
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Elayne's.

 

 

I believe Verin did what was feasibly allowed by the DO's oaths. As awesome as Verin was at the end, I believe she would have done more if she was able to. As far as why not tell Egwene, I believe she didn't waste the time she had talking about that because her main focus with Egwene was to stop the Black Ajah, not save Caemlyn. She was relying on Mat's curiosity to save Caemlyn. As it turned out, that was not a wise choice ... but you can hardly blame her for assuming he would get curious.

 

 

So, I can reason away Verin .. and I understand why Mat would be wary of opening the letter ... and for all we know Melli is out there killing Trollocs right now! But ... Elayne ... really? You know an attack is coming and you leave your capitol city nearly defenseless. Really? "And 2010's Monarch numbskull moment of the year goes to ... Elayne Trakand!"

 

And this really isn't about Cairhien ... she was already done there and gone by the time the city gets attacked. You could have made an effective showing to Rand with just Andor's and Cairhien's nobles that represent the armies without actually taking the armies with you. Sure, everyone else was bringing their army but if everyone else was jumping off cliff, would you do it too?!

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Mostly not Verin, if we are right in thinking that the delay was a device for avoiding her Oaths. She probably should have mentioned it to Egwene, though. So she bears some responsibility.

 

Not Mat. His belief that Aes Sedai will try to tie him up in their schemes is entirely rational and justified by personal experience. To whatever extant Mat is responsible, the Aes Sedai are really responsible.

 

Rand, to a degree. He could have destroyed the waygate, or asked the Ogier to seal it.

 

Elayne, to a great degree. Defense of Andor is her responsibilty, and the only justification for the existence of a feudal monarch. And she had a warning of an attack on her country, but didn't bother telling anyone about it. Because she wanted to "think on it" herself. But then she got distracted by her personal territorial ambitions. Not surprising, given that she is a fool.

 

Egwene, greatly responsible. Because Egwene is responsible for everything that is wrong with the world. Including tooth decay, tax audits, and sleet.

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The will of the Pattern folks. This is what this series comes down to. There was a reason that will eventually come to light telling us why this had to happen this way. Yes, there were some errors in judgement all around, but there is too much chance that something else would have been impacted. I am reminded of the SGU episode this week where Chloe changed Destiny's direction to go back and pick up Rush. It was said after that Eli cannot determine if and what the long term consequenses will be and Rush said "There always are".

 

If Mat had opened the letter, oath or not, I agree that he would have done something about this attack. That could have delayed him just long enough that saving Moiraine would no longer have been possible. Or something could have happened to Thom or Noal in the battle. Of course, in relation to my point, the Pattern could have accounted for all of this and it is a moot point to argue it.

 

Just remember that RJ/BS/the Pattern have a plan and we will see a reason and impact in the next book.

 

Generally agree, except for the part about Mat being delayed in rescuing Moiraine. Verin's letter speaks of destroying the Waygate, which could be done in a relatively short time. Instead Mat chose to wait weeks for Verin's specified timeframe to run out so he wouldn't have to read that letter. He actually rescued Moiraine later than he would have if he just hadn't been so paranoid.

 

What if that letter had contained information about some danger that his sister Bodewin was in at the Tower? His blanket judgement that any letter from Verin must be weaseled around is irrational. People need to quit making excuses for his poor behaviour.

 

Does Mat know Bodewin is in the Tower?

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1. Verin - there are so many ways that she could have done a better job getting this info to the Light. Tell Egwene, put it in Rand's letter, do a better job when discussing it with Mat, etc..

 

Note: For me, there is a huge gap on this list between Verin and anyone else who has some responsibility.

 

2. Mat - Unfortunately his paranoia (understandable) of Aes Sedai plots blinded him to the importance of the letter. My initial thought when reading the letter was sadness that my favorite character was partly to blame for what appears to be a diseaster.

 

3. Elayne - She learns of an invasion plan from the Black Ajah but has appearantly pulled most of her forces out of the city to the FoM.

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The will of the Pattern folks. This is what this series comes down to. There was a reason that will eventually come to light telling us why this had to happen this way. Yes, there were some errors in judgement all around, but there is too much chance that something else would have been impacted. I am reminded of the SGU episode this week where Chloe changed Destiny's direction to go back and pick up Rush. It was said after that Eli cannot determine if and what the long term consequenses will be and Rush said "There always are".

 

If Mat had opened the letter, oath or not, I agree that he would have done something about this attack. That could have delayed him just long enough that saving Moiraine would no longer have been possible. Or something could have happened to Thom or Noal in the battle. Of course, in relation to my point, the Pattern could have accounted for all of this and it is a moot point to argue it.

 

Just remember that RJ/BS/the Pattern have a plan and we will see a reason and impact in the next book.

 

Generally agree, except for the part about Mat being delayed in rescuing Moiraine. Verin's letter speaks of destroying the Waygate, which could be done in a relatively short time. Instead Mat chose to wait weeks for Verin's specified timeframe to run out so he wouldn't have to read that letter. He actually rescued Moiraine later than he would have if he just hadn't been so paranoid.

 

What if that letter had contained information about some danger that his sister Bodewin was in at the Tower? His blanket judgement that any letter from Verin must be weaseled around is irrational. People need to quit making excuses for his poor behaviour.

 

Let's keep in mind the will of BS to get the time line synced rolleyes.gif

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Does Mat know Bodewin is in the Tower?

 

That isn't the issue. That letter could have contained any information at all. It might have had to do with his parents, his sister, something going on in Ebou Dar concerning his wife. It might have contained the location where she had hidden the Horn of Valere and intel about how to use it more effectively. It could have contained anything at all.

 

An adult would consider some or maybe all of those possibilities. An adult would have opened the letter.

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Does Mat know Bodewin is in the Tower?

 

That isn't the issue. That letter could have contained any information at all. It might have had to do with his parents, his sister, something going on in Ebou Dar concerning his wife. It might have contained the location where she had hidden the Horn of Valere and intel about how to use it more effectively. It could have contained anything at all.

 

An adult would consider some or maybe all of those possibilities. An adult would have opened the letter.

 

Or it might have said "Mat, you must return to WT and wait for the LB b/c Eggy has HoV. You must go there right now, no delays at all! Stop everything you doing and go. Also Eggy might need you as taveren might help her with controlling WT." Let's not play "might have" game here.

 

An adult would not jump into something without know where the hole goes and how deep.

Edited by NetSlider
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Elayne, to a great degree. Defense of Andor is her responsibilty, and the only justification for the existence of a feudal monarch. And she had a warning of an attack on her country, but didn't bother telling anyone about it. Because she wanted to "think on it" herself. But then she got distracted by her personal territorial ambitions. Not surprising, given that she is a fool.

This is simply not true. She told Birgitte, Norry and Dyelin, and there was a mention of Birgitte increasing the numbers and alertness of the forces they have on the Andor borders to be prepared to react quickly to an attack.

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I think the Pattern wanted that Trolloc invasion to happen, to weaken Andor relative to the Seanchen going into the next Age. The Pattern really wants to make the Seanchen a problem, and something not easily beaten.

 

I voted for Mat, since he's ta'veren and he's doing the Pattern's work here. We think of Andor as the good guys, but the Pattern has a broader view and didn't want Andor to be so strong, and this is how it handled it.

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An adult would not jump into something without know where the hole goes and how deep.

 

True, but too late now. He'd already made his deal with Verin. He'd already given her his oath to do what the letter instructed.

 

He's weaseling. He's trying to take Verin's assistance without paying her price. That also makes him a thief.

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Not at all. He did pay her price. The price was the promise to either wait in Caemlyn or open the letter and do what it said. He met his side of the bargain.

 

I'm frequently frustrated with Mat's character, because he is a bit childish. But he hasn't done Verin wrong here.

Edited by randsc
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An adult would not jump into something without know where the hole goes and how deep.

 

True, but too late now. He'd already made his deal with Verin. He'd already given her his oath to do what the letter instructed.

 

He's weaseling. He's trying to take Verin's assistance without paying her price. That also makes him a thief.

 

No he didn't. Are we reading the same freaking books here? He made a deal with Verin and he followed that deal to the letter. Period.

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Obviously the fault lies with Olver, if he had stolen and read the letter earlier, the attack on Caemlyn would've occurred before Elayne had left Caemlyn.

 

*sound in background*

 

What do you mean the Wheel of Time isn't an event triggered RPG where touching the dying guy on the floor causes him to spout box text and die?

 

*more sound in the background*

 

Whatever, that waygate still would've spewed trollocs.

 

[/joke]

 

I honestly think it is Mats fault. Verin left a letter that was important enough that she felt the need to make him promise certain actions. In Mat's place, I would've opened it as soon as Verin left because...

1. Verin set up the letter to be something important.

2. Mat is basically the Extra Prescription Strength General of the world, he should understand the value of getting information early enough to act on it. Any preparation efforts are only made easier if I don't wait 10 days.

3. If the letter ends up being really stupid, I can ignore it. Mat has no forcing oaths. There is a difference between being true to your word (honorable) and being stupid. If I swore service to someone and they gave me an order to kill them, I wouldn't kill him/her on reflex.

 

I don't blame Rand because...

1. If he put a Shadar Logath style ward, it wouldn't kill the trollocs fast enough to stop them from raiding Caemlyn. It might make it a one day event, but the damage would still be done.

2. If he destroyed the waygate it would've had collateral damage. Reports we have of other destroyed waygates include the channeler being sucked out of the world.

3. Rand did have the waygate guarded, but I think the guards were Saldaean or Aiel, both of which left the city as soon as Elayne came home. Also, guarding the waygate wouldn't have been enough.

 

I don't blame Elayne because...

1. I don't think guarding the waygate would've been sufficient. Darkfriends were able to enact an escape from a heavily guarded dungeon, is there any doubt that they would've been able to kill the handful of guards watching the waygate?

2. I don't think Elayne took her entire force. That would be abandoning Caemlyn to mercenaries or Elloriane (spelling?).

 

I don't blame Verin because (as others have said), she had to convince herself that she would be dead or free by the time Mat read it.

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