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Caemlyn in the Epilogue. Poll.


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Caemlyn  

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  1. 1. Whose Fault Is Caemlyn



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Caemlyn will survive mostly intact, Jordan loved this city too much, he described it with beautifully so many times.

yes but what better way to instill the horrors of war than to destroy beautiful stuff. Besides we know its no longer beautiful due to fires burning across the city, and widespread destruction

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actually everyone took there armies to the fields of whatever because itseasier to have them at hand then launch a strike then have to gate back organize then gate out the armies. And we know that rand is planning to strike from the fields to where ever, so he intends to gather the armies, inform them whats happening and attack before DFs have a chance to report whats happening.

 

Actually the only reason the armies are coming is because Egwene asked them to bring them in order to make it a bigger show of force. Rand said he would meet Egwene at the FoM not all the armies.

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Whose fault? Forsaken, BA and shadoswpawn. And the DO.

 

Voted for Verin though. Even if it is a bit harsh. The woman misjudges one person and we start blaming her for a massacre.

 

I can't blame Verin. If she handed the note to Mat thinking he would really open it, she would have violated her oaths to the DO. I say Elayne. She had warning anyway and still left her city defenseless.

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Whose fault? Forsaken, BA and shadoswpawn. And the DO.

 

Voted for Verin though. Even if it is a bit harsh. The woman misjudges one person and we start blaming her for a massacre.

 

I can't blame Verin. If she handed the note to Mat thinking he would really open it, she would have violated her oaths to the DO. I say Elayne. She had warning anyway and still left her city defenseless.

well I dont see much fault of her for that, I wouldnt have thought of trollocs spewing out of a waygate either. Even if she thought it was an external threat she had mercs in various camps around the city so there is an abundance of warriors about to be an holding force. Plus I would hope that she left orders to come get her in the event of an emergency along with having the armies ready to move back into caemlyn.

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actually everyone took there armies to the fields of whatever because itseasier to have them at hand then launch a strike then have to gate back organize then gate out the armies. And we know that rand is planning to strike from the fields to where ever, so he intends to gather the armies, inform them whats happening and attack before DFs have a chance to report whats happening.

 

Actually the only reason the armies are coming is because Egwene asked them to bring them in order to make it a bigger show of force. Rand said he would meet Egwene at the FoM not all the armies.

 

Exactly^^ but why would Elayne need to bring an army to show force, you know? I mean Rand isn't going to react to an army any more than he did to hundreds of thousands of trollocks attacking him. Elayne would have all the force she needs just by being who she is. The Queen of Andor and someone Rand loves. There's no point in having the army there. Gateways are going to have to be used regardless of whether they determine their plan of attack at the FoM, so it would be just as easy to have Elayne and her general there then move to Caemlyn and open a new gateway to where ever it was determined that their forces would go. The soldiers being at FoM doesn't help organize anything because they aren't going to be told anything special there. The generals are the only people who need to plan then they flow the information down. That's how it's supposed to work. This seems to me like just a bad idea on Egwene. She thinks armies are going to scare Rand. Why would she do that? For ONCE i would like to see everyone work together! This is the best time to do it. I'm not saying just follow blindly, but meet talk and discuss like intelligent people(who used to be friends) should do and then work together. Don't bring armies to intimidate.(Sorry i'm sure this goes in a different thread, i just get so frustrated wit this)

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Imo its Verin's fault. To trust such important information with a very big IF. She completly misjudged Mat.

 

So, you know, Mat gets away with being a total idiot and defying people for no reason but his own selfish pride?

 

While Verin had to come up with some reason to get him not to open the letter immediately AND had no prior interactions with non-dagger Mat on which to judge him.

 

People siding with Mat on this one are seriously messed up.

 

Rand bears some of the blame for not ordering the Waygates destroyed, though. And maybe Elayne gets some blame for not shoring it up? But she didn't know it was there, I don't think. Rand knew it was there; he'd been in it before.

Edited by bjsm
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Can't really assign blame to only one person in this situation. Pretty much have to share it between a few people.

 

Rand, because he did a pretty half ass job of locking down the waygate. I never understood why he didn't just destroy them since it is the only viable option for Shadowspawn to travel long distances throughout Randland.

 

Elayne, because she actually had information that an attack was imminent and she never thought to reason out how it would be accomplished or how soon. She also takes her armies to the meeting and leaves no one protecting Caemlyn except half the band.

 

Verin, because she actually has the exact information that people need but risks everything on only one letter and the belief that curiosity would ensure Caemlyn's survival. Not sure why she wouldn't have just sent a letter to Elayne as well as insurance.

 

And lastly Mat, because he actually had possession of the letter. I can't really blame him though. Verin gave him the option to open the letter after 10 days and do whatever it says or wait 30 days in Caemlyn. The last part was her making sure that Mat would be there during the invasion. He took option #2 because who knows what's in that letter. He had to get the dragons under construction, find out about the Towers of Ghenjei and than rescue Moraine. What happens if that letter had asked him to complete some task in the Borderlands. Without access to Traveling it would have wasted weeks of his time.

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we dont know how much of her army she took to field.

 

I think it is a tactical move on elaynes part, I think she may be against Egwene and needs to have some backing if things go very wrong.

 

I think taking all the armies to FoM is the best way to ensure a quick and decisive attack. Gating back to each individual city, and pulling the garrisons would have taken more time. This way Rand has the armies he requires and no one has the delaying escuses that could be available otherwise.

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we dont know how much of her army she took to field.

 

I think it is a tactical move on elaynes part, I think she may be against Egwene and needs to have some backing if things go very wrong.

 

I think taking all the armies to FoM is the best way to ensure a quick and decisive attack. Gating back to each individual city, and pulling the garrisons would have taken more time. This way Rand has the armies he requires and no one has the delaying escuses that could be available otherwise.

 

 

Elayne is going to the meeting with the intention of supporting Egwene. She tells Perrin that Rand's plan to break the seals is foolish and he must be stopped. She also tells Egwene that Perrin will likely be difficult at the meeting. As to what she'll decide when Rand finally has his say, I have no idea. But right now all her actions are 100% in support for Egwene.

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I do not believe Verin was at fault for this. She couldn't uncover the plot because of her Black Ajah oaths - this is why she made Mat promise and trusted that he would open the letter. She believed he would and did what she could there.

 

I can't find blame for Mat either. He doesn't trust Aes Sedai and while he knew the letter's contents were important he had his promise to Thom to go by too. He waited for Verin for the amount of time he said he would but he couldn't go against his other promise. I'm sure if he knew Caemlyn itself rode on his decision he'd have chosen to open the letter but for all he knew it was some nonsense about procuring horses for Verin's trip to a country estate.

 

Rand's juggling a thousand different things he needs to do and for the Waygates he knew they were important and did dedicate an amount of time to taking care of them. He was met first with opposition from the Ogiers and then did his own thing - setting guards on some, wards on others.

 

Elayne knew about the Waygate. She knew there was going to be an invasion. She moved all her troops to the Field of Merrilor. She really dropped the ball on this one. The Waygate is a serious security issue that even without the threat of Tarmon Gaidon or the invasion should have been seen to. Yes, there were guards in place but obviously not well enough. She's shown herself to be a terrible ruler and the loss of Caemlyn would be the loss of the throne itself, something she wholly deserves. A ruler needs to be able to learn from their mistakes but time and time again Elayne has rushed into things and did her own thing on the spur of the moment. She strikes me as a flighty girl, the kind Egwene was in The Eye of the World before she grew up. Only Elayne's not going to grow up. She's going to scream at somebody in the next book because she's a failure.

 

The only thing that might save her is the fact that she kept an army's worth of mercenaries just outside Caemlyn, which itself was an extremely shortsighted and stupid move on her part considering she just left the city defenseless. Talmanes or Mat might be able to convince the mercenaries to fight but there's no gold in killing trollocs for a leaderless city.

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I dont think that Elayne knows about the waygate, and how would she go about locating it? remember it is in a basement.

 

I dont like how people are saying she moved all her forces out of Caemlyn, she probably left a sizeable force behind in case. Unless someone can provide a quote that says she moved every soldier out to the field you arent going to convince me.

 

Also her actions although brash have been based on the best information she had. I will not fault her for not anticipating reinforcements from the shadow. As for her latest escapade she alone had to do what was done, if she assigned extra troops, and kin to the doors they likely would all be dead. And going into the cell wiht a whole bunch of people would ruin the illusion and she would gain nothing from it.

 

and also if Elayne was not aware of the waygate in Caemlyn she isnt to be completely blamed on the razing of Caemlyn, since waiting around for an invasion would have been disaster in all likely hood. Also how would she know that trollocs where moving through the ways? no one told her anything about that, that I can recall.

 

too me her moving out the army is like moving out an medieval army only to have your capitol hit by a missile, it cant be anticipated

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Even if she didn't know about the way gate in Caemlyn, she also doesn't know that shadowspawn can't pass through a gateway. So for all she knows an army of trollocs would have walked right into the palace. Which they are going to basically do anyway, but that is beside the point.

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I think it's Elaynes fault because what kind of a idiot ruler pulls every single one of her troops from the city, especially knowing TG is on your doorstep AND given the recent struggle for the throne. She could have Went along to the meeting with a honor guard, and if she needed to bring the rest late she could have traveled them there, i mean she does have the entire kin at her disposal right now plus all her troops for no reason other than for show.

 

 

This. Absolutely this. NO ONE is responsible for for it other than Elayne. No matter what anyone else did, she has the responsibility for the city and the people. She is the one who left the city, and left it unprotected. She knew of the gate there. She knew of the threat. If she didn't know, it was not because she hadn't been warned. Could Verrin have done a better job? Surely. Could Matt have been more on the ball? Perhaps yes, but when it was left to just straight chance of whether he would open the letter or not, he simply didn't. But at the end of the day the responsibility fell squarely on the shoulders of one, Elayne and no one else.

 

We can blame Verin or Matt all day long but only one person is ultimately responsible for an attack that could have happened at any time, on any day, and in any number of ways. Hang her high, I say.

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Elayne.

 

Ultimately it's her freaking capital city... emptying the city, when she was WARNED the city was about to be attacked was the type of brilliant leadership we've all come to expect from the worlds least deserving or able leader.

 

she simply doesn't care about anyone else because she's "immortal" until the babies are born, so once again thousands of her people will die because she's an idiot...

Edited by ingtarshinowa
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Why do you keep saying that the whole of the Andoran forces have left? There's no proof of that. And with Gateways available, Elayne didn't need to leave a really big force, just strong enough to be able to hold until help arrives. We know Birgitte took the thread of the invasion seriously and chances are she made preparations just in case.

 

It's also wrong she knew the city will be attacked - Chesmal mentioned an invasion of Andor, not of Caemlyn specifically.

 

There's nothing in the books to suggest Elayne knew about the Waygate in Caemlyn. Rand mentioned in KoD he had sealed it, so most likely he considered it not a threat anymore so didn't tell those he had in charge in Caemlyn before Elayne returned, about it.

 

I am not saying Elayne handled it great overall, far from it, but let's keep the facts straight. Getting nearly all the armies of the non-Seanchan part of the Westlands at one place was dumb, but every ruler in the world agreed to it, and Rand and Egwene engineered it, so if Elayne is an idiot for coming, so are they and all other monarchs.

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All these three's fault (three because I don't remember who this Melli is). And yet to none of them.

 

Verin - for forsing Mat to give his oath that he'll do what the letter says. She shouldn't push him that way, knowing how stubborn he is. She should heve just told him to open the letter and do what he wants, of course he would have helped stoping the trollocs.

 

Mat - for not opening the fucking letter.

 

Elayne - for being careless and not knowing her own city.

 

and yet:

 

Verin - couldn't just say to them about all this, because of her Black Ajah's oaths. So using the letters was the only option for her, I guess.

 

Mat - he (and all other people in the book) have the right to distrust the stupid Aes Sedai and try to free himselt of their strings.

 

Elayne - it was time for her to move her troops up noth, you cannot blame her for marching toward the Last Battle. The city can be rebuild, the fight against the DO is what matters most.

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Some of the points about Elayne being at fault are really dubious. She is informed that her country faces invasion so what does she do? She increases the number of soldiers she has on her borders. How negligent. Who in their right minds guards against invasion by increasing border defences? Oh yeah, everyone. As for the Waygate, bear in mind that channelers an unspin wards and cut through a locked gate. That leaves nothing short of complete destruction, which is what Verin told Mat to do. The Waygate had been sealed, according to Rand, so Elayne had reason to think it wasn't a problem.

 

Mat, on the other hand, had a letter. It was important, Verin needed it done, and she doubted he would find the instructions in the letter overly harsh. About as clear a statement as we're used to from an AS. But Mat, in his paranoia, refused to open the letter, nor to find out what was within. He had the information to hand, and refused to act on it. He most definitely bears the lion's share of the blame. Now, Verin could have phrased her requests in other ways, ways that might have done more to convince Mat to read the letter, and she didn't, and for that she bears some blame, but she did act to protect the city - Mat didn't. Furthermore, any way she told Mat could have led to him not reading the letter, or not acting (bearing in mind her knowledge of his character isn't perfect, and she was last with him in TDR, before he'd given us readers any reason to think he was actually a decent specimen of humanity. Seriously, Mat was a complete tosser before we started getting his POV). So she's in a no-win situation, but didn't perhaps phrase things in the best way. Mat didn't read the letter, and did nothing to save the city. He alone did nothing. Verin did, Rand did, Elayne did, Mat didn't. Who's the hero here?

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I don't think this is the right question to be asking but I will address it briefly. I would say that most of the blame lies with Verin for assuming that Mat would open the letter. That was just a stupid assumption. She knows he has the old blood of Manetheren and that Two Rivers folk could teach stubborness to a stone or a mule or whatever it was. Mat is definitely not guiltless, but I think what happened might actually be the lesser of several evils. We know that rescuing Moiraine is tantamount to saving the world, so clearly that had to be done. We don't know if Mat could have stopped the invasion of Caemlyn and saved Moiraine. Also, I think that what happened might actually be the lesser of several evils and that the Pattern conspired to make it so. I could almost feel the tugging of the Wheel when reading the sections about Mat and the letter.

 

Stop apportioning blame and think about the tactical and logistical situations. You could have Trollocs attacking anywhere. Therefore, you need to concentrate your forces with Rand as he has the resources to deploy large numbers instantly by gateway. (I think this is actually one of Rand's main reasons for having everyone meet him at the Field of Merrilor). Mat left a significant portion of the Band outside Caemlyn, so they should be able to do something, possibly even keep Caemlyn and the dragons out of Trolloc hands until help arrives. And help will arrive. Rand has gateways and probably troops numbering in the seven figures range (probably including the portion of the Band sent to Cairhien). All that needs to happen is for one Kinswoman or pigeon to make it out of Caemlyn. The more troops that are with Rand, the better equipped he is to respond to threats elsewhere. Caemlyn will not be the only point of attack.

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Whose fault? Forsaken, BA and shadoswpawn. And the DO.

 

Of course it is. Just as it's not the homeowner's fault for getting burgled, it's the burglar's fault; it's not the fraud victim's fault, it's the fraudster; it's not the victim's fault for getting raped and/or murdered.

 

There are precautions we can take against all of these and similar crimes. But ultimately, it's not OUR FAULT if those precautions fail.

Edited by FarShainMael
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actually Elayne left the band outside of the city, her only fault was not moving them into the city. And technically at this point the Band is under teh Andoran crown and thus Elaynes army, until the contract is done. So she actually left a sizeable force behind. not to mention the city guard, and likely a large contingent of trainies and the training staff, and personally I think she would leave at least 5 rotations of the city guard.

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The blame is equal Egwene and Elayne, Verin less so because she is under strict conditions as to what she can/can't do, she's lucky she could write the letter in the first place.

 

She could have said something to Egwene at the hour of her death. Or at least included it in the books she gave her! C'MON!

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Elayne.

 

Ultimately it's her freaking capital city... emptying the city, when she was WARNED the city was about to be attacked was the type of brilliant leadership we've all come to expect from the worlds least deserving or able leader.

 

she simply doesn't care about anyone else because she's "immortal" until the babies are born, so once again thousands of her people will die because she's an idiot...

 

Yeah exactly. Blaming Matt is just weak at best. Matt had no duty to that city nor did he have a duty to open that letter. Elayne had a duty for her own city and her own people. Anyone with even the slightest bit of common sense wouldn't move the soldiers out...the enemies know how to use both waygates and have forsaken who can create portals so sending your troops away is a perfect example of a fail leader. She knew of the impending attack.

 

If the city falls, the blame rests squarely on Elaynes shoulders, no one elses.

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I dont think elayneis a failure as a leader. I think that Elayne hate is magnifying what people find wrong with her leadership.

 

Do we know if the attack happened the day elayne left? Because if it did then orders may have been dispatched to move the Band inside the walls, the attack just occured to quickly for the Band to be brought under their contract.

 

Did briggitte go with elayne to the field? there is nothing mentioning a golden haired woman matchign briggettes description from Egwenes PoV.

 

And also THERES NOTHING TO SAY what amount of forces Elayne took, and of what composition they are. The could be 20% Andoran and 80% Cairheinan. Or she could have taken the majority and shuffled troops from cairhein into caemlyn in defence.

 

There is not enough information to dictate whether or not she left caemlyn defenseless. remember that the gateway is a ways away from the palace and the military headquarters and that trollocs love to kill and burn. So they could have lit a quarter of the city on fire before an organized defence could be put into effect. Not to mention I dont think Elayne knows about the waygate, or that shadowspawn have been moving throuhg it.

 

Personally I dont know if they are using waygates, I think there could be a portal stone the city grew over and since from what we have seen so far the shadow is only using male channellers to move their men about and Elayne has 0 saidin channellers in the city that we know of.

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