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Caemlyn in the Epilogue. Poll.


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Caemlyn  

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  1. 1. Whose Fault Is Caemlyn



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Obviously the fault lies with Olver, if he had stolen and read the letter earlier, the attack on Caemlyn would've occurred before Elayne had left Caemlyn.

 

*sound in background*

 

What do you mean the Wheel of Time isn't an event triggered RPG where touching the dying guy on the floor causes him to spout box text and die?

 

*more sound in the background*

 

Whatever, that waygate still would've spewed trollocs.

 

[/joke]

 

I honestly think it is Mats fault. Verin left a letter that was important enough that she felt the need to make him promise certain actions. In Mat's place, I would've opened it as soon as Verin left because...

1. Verin set up the letter to be something important.

2. Mat is basically the Extra Prescription Strength General of the world, he should understand the value of getting information early enough to act on it. Any preparation efforts are only made easier if I don't wait 10 days.

3. If the letter ends up being really stupid, I can ignore it. Mat has no forcing oaths. There is a difference between being true to your word (honorable) and being stupid. If I swore service to someone and they gave me an order to kill them, I wouldn't kill him/her on reflex.

 

I don't blame Rand because...

1. If he put a Shadar Logath style ward, it wouldn't kill the trollocs fast enough to stop them from raiding Caemlyn. It might make it a one day event, but the damage would still be done.

2. If he destroyed the waygate it would've had collateral damage. Reports we have of other destroyed waygates include the channeler being sucked out of the world.

3. Rand did have the waygate guarded, but I think the guards were Saldaean or Aiel, both of which left the city as soon as Elayne came home. Also, guarding the waygate wouldn't have been enough.

 

I don't blame Elayne because...

1. I don't think guarding the waygate would've been sufficient. Darkfriends were able to enact an escape from a heavily guarded dungeon, is there any doubt that they would've been able to kill the handful of guards watching the waygate?

2. I don't think Elayne took her entire force. That would be abandoning Caemlyn to mercenaries or Elloriane (spelling?).

 

I don't blame Verin because (as others have said), she had to convince herself that she would be dead or free by the time Mat read it.

 

Actually, Mat was forced to agree to follow the letter if he opens it. Hence this whole mass - if only Verin did not put the condition on Mat of following what's in the letter I would be first in line of calling Mat a f*&cking child and moron who should be kicked in the nuts because idiots like that should not reproducing. But that was not the case and this small thing makes a HUGE difference in decision making process.

 

Don't forget, Mat ALWAYS keeps his word (even Nyn admitted it as much as it pained her). He freaking saved AS from Seanchen b/c of a freaking letter that made no difference whatsoever. He's a very honorable guy, Mat is.

Edited by NetSlider
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It is tough to assign blame here, as others have noted. Why was this one not closed?

 

Out of the incomplete list of parties at potential fault, I vote Elayne simply because 1) she had some warning from what the darkfriends had said, and 2) it's happening "on her watch." She is the Queen and the blame goes up the command chain to her.

Other than that, and outside of those two parameters, of course the Dark One is sending its trolloc armies wherever it perceives a weak spot to attack, and massively. It won't only be Caemlyn that is attacked. The Borderlands are overrun already. There are most likely other points of assault as well that we will RAFO in AMOL.

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Actually, Mat was forced to agree to follow the letter if he opens it. Hence this whole mass - if only Verin did not put the condition on Mat of following what's in the letter I would be first in line of calling Mat a f*&cking child and moron who should be kicked in the nuts because idiots like that should not reproducing. But that was not the case and this small thing makes a HUGE difference in decision making process.

 

Don't forget, Mat ALWAYS keeps his word (even Nyn admitted it as much as it pained her). He freaking saved AS from Seanchen b/c of a freaking letter that made no difference whatsoever. He's a very honorable guy, Mat is.

The fact is, Verin stressed the importance of the letter. That should have superseded the oath to not read it early.

 

While I accept that Mat is honorable, I don't think he would put honor before the safety of unknown numbers. Anything important could be written in the letter. It could have included instructions to receive the Horn, or (what it turned out to be) warning of an impending attack.

 

A good general knows that learning something earlier is rarely a bad thing.

 

Unquestioning Honor is predictable, and predictability makes for a bad general.

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The real answer is both Mat and Verin. They each had a hand in the attack on Caemlyn occurring.

 

However, how many of us thought Mat was never going to open Verin's letter prior to the book coming out? Very few imo. Verin's assumption that he couldn't resist was a fairly good one, matured Mat or not almost all of us thought he was going to open it or have it opened in some way for him. She didn't know he had a dire reason to want to leave Caemlyn. I'm not saying we should have expected Mat to tell her, but if there was nothing forcing Mat to leave Caemlyn (which is what Verin thought)...he certainly would have opened the letter in the 30 days.

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I just have a hard time believing Verin miscalculating so gravely.

 

Me too. I wish it had been done slightly differently. I'm just not sure how. And I don't mean just from logic. The logical thing was to write it in the book and give it to Egwene. I'm talking written differently. It had to be done with the letter though, because that makes it tragic because the whole thing could have been averted. Here's what we know:

 

a) RJ/BS wanted Caemlyn attacked through a Waygate and for it to be a surprise

b) Mat needed a quick way to get to Caemlyn from Murandy (Verin)

c) Mat needed to be gone when the attack occurred

 

But the stipulation that he had to do what it says was too stupid of an error on Verin's part. It should have been done in a way that she didn't say "you must do what it says" but also in a way that Mat would still not read the letter.

 

A simple solution is for her to have said "I'll Travel you if you read this letter in 10 days."

 

I think Mat *still* would have been too stubborn to read it, and Verin wouldn't have been as tarnished. Someone else could probably think of a better way, but that's what I've got.

 

 

(I'm actually not terribly bothered that she made this mistake, but I understand why some are)

Edited by Deadsy
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Rand too, he tricked Egwene into this plan. And he didn't destroy the Caemlyn Waygate nor did he put the type of Shadowspawn killing traps like the one he made for the Shadar Logoth one.

 

I'm pretty sure he did at least take the two leaves, and his asha'man with Loial went around doing the same. Obviously Demandred or Moridin have a way to get around that.

Edited by Charlz Guybon
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Don't forget there are thousands of mercenaries outside of Caemlyn.

 

I am sure that it will probably come down to Olver (Gaidal) and Talmanes will organize a defense of the city and we will see the damage the dragons can do to the Trollocs. We get no impression that there are Dreadlords with the army.

And maybe the Legion of the Dragon. We know the Saldeans and the Aiel left Andor, but I don't think it's ever specifically mentioned if they left or where they went.

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Not to mention to all these people gunning for the "put it in the book verin gave camp"

 

What good would it have done? at that point in time she was still a prisoner of the white tower, she was considering a seige on the WT and if she committed GB forces elsewhere im sure it would have looked bad for the campaign.

 

Secondly what would have been the odds that she would find it amongst all the other information.

 

Which would she have acted on first BA/Forsaken in the tower or a Potential attack on Caemyln that Elayne is in charge of already.

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Not to mention to all these people gunning for the "put it in the book verin gave camp"

 

What good would it have done?

 

Er, what?

 

Leave a note with Elayne in her dreams. She has somewhere around 300 Kin at her disposal. And it would have taken Egwene all of 10 seconds.

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Not to mention to all these people gunning for the "put it in the book verin gave camp"

 

What good would it have done?

 

Er, what?

 

Leave a note with Elayne in her dreams. She has somewhere around 300 Kin at her disposal. And it would have taken Egwene all of 10 seconds.

 

Did Verin know that she has the ability to leave notes in peoples minds? i dont think so.

So Verin would have assumed it would have either been gateway (implausible since she is under lockdown) or by messenger which would have taken ages and been implausible since messages can be easily intercepted.

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My gosh, I voted Verin, and Mat would have been second.

 

Why not simply leave a note with an AS she knows she can trust and who has access to traveling, and tell them to deliver it to Elayne (or Egwene) in 3 days if she isn't back? If not, she'll come back and collect it. Say, someone like, TIANA! Of all people, Verin should know whom to trust.

 

Again, like many things in ToM, this was just too stupid for words from someone who hasn't made a mistake in 70 years. Please.

 

And again, didn't she tell Egwene she wrote everything she knew about the BA and their plans in that book, why isn't Caemlyn included. Heck, saying, Oh, BTW, you MUST destroy the Waygate at Caemlyn so the city isn't sacked wouldn't have taken too long.

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Really, the only person who is really at fault is Elayne. Verin made mistakes, but most if not all of those were due to her limited knowledge of mat. You can't blame someone for not understanding someone they have spent very limited time with. Plus the only person who is responsible for Caemlyn in any way shape or form is Elayne. If Caemlyn gets burned to the ground and the people get eaten Mat has no responsibility, and neither does Verin. Why? Because it's not their bloody jobs. It's Elayne's plain and simple. You don't blame an accounting error on the messanger boy. It's her job, it's her responsibility, it's her fault.

 

Now who do you guys think is going to go to help out?

 

Talmanes is heading in with the band

 

The mercs around the city will certainly take part.

 

Will Rand Egwene Elayne Perrin or Mat go? Mat may or may not already be with Perrin, so that could change things.

Edited by maxofox
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My gosh, I voted Verin, and Mat would have been second.

 

Why not simply leave a note with an AS she knows she can trust and who has access to traveling, and tell them to deliver it to Elayne (or Egwene) in 3 days if she isn't back? If not, she'll come back and collect it. Say, someone like, TIANA! Of all people, Verin should know whom to trust.

 

Again, like many things in ToM, this was just too stupid for words from someone who hasn't made a mistake in 70 years. Please.

 

And again, didn't she tell Egwene she wrote everything she knew about the BA and their plans in that book, why isn't Caemlyn included. Heck, saying, Oh, BTW, you MUST destroy the Waygate at Caemlyn so the city isn't sacked wouldn't have taken too long.

The entire book is encrypted. Hundreds of pages of small hand written script. It took Egwene at least an hour to translate a list of 200 names. That's the equivalent of just a couple of paragraphs. It's gonna take weeks to translate that whole book. It could be in the book, and they just haven't gotten to it yet.

Edited by Charlz Guybon
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The Pattern should have been a choice. I voted for Mat though.

 

It seemed to me Mat's curiosity was tempting him to open the note so Verin was right about that. BUT every time he seemed to be considering opening the letter he was interrupted. That seems like the Pattern, or the DO's effect on the Pattern, at work.

 

As for someone's dice comment I don't think they worked because he wasn't supposed to be in the city when the Shadowspawn arrived(and thanks to the Pattern, he wasn't).

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personally I think caemlyn is screwed. the trollocs would override the city in about 5 hours and iwould not doubt if they where ordered not to burn stuff till all the murdering was done. plus with the mercs having to besiege the city it could take a long time, and its loss could be a moral defeat for all the armies of the light, since its so far from the borderlands

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Not to mention to all these people gunning for the "put it in the book verin gave camp"

 

What good would it have done?

 

Er, what?

 

Leave a note with Elayne in her dreams. She has somewhere around 300 Kin at her disposal. And it would have taken Egwene all of 10 seconds.

 

Did Verin know that she has the ability to leave notes in peoples minds? i dont think so.

So Verin would have assumed it would have either been gateway (implausible since she is under lockdown) or by messenger which would have taken ages and been implausible since messages can be easily intercepted.

Well, Verin gave Egwene the ter'arngreal for access to T'A'R back in TDR because Egwene was supposed to be a Dreamer. Then Verin spent months with the Wise Ones, learning all kinds of stuff about them, so chances are she's heard about Egwene's training as a Dreamwalker - she's Brown and this is one of her area of particular interest, and she's really good at hunting for info. So she had a good reason to suspect Egwene can deliver the message somehow. The least she could do was ask Egwene whether she has any way to contact Elayne soon, which would've taken her 30 seconds.

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Not to mention to all these people gunning for the "put it in the book verin gave camp"

 

What good would it have done?

 

Er, what?

 

Leave a note with Elayne in her dreams. She has somewhere around 300 Kin at her disposal. And it would have taken Egwene all of 10 seconds.

 

Did Verin know that she has the ability to leave notes in peoples minds? i dont think so.

So Verin would have assumed it would have either been gateway (implausible since she is under lockdown) or by messenger which would have taken ages and been implausible since messages can be easily intercepted.

Well, Verin gave Egwene the ter'arngreal for access to T'A'R back in TDR because Egwene was supposed to be a Dreamer. Then Verin spent months with the Wise Ones, learning all kinds of stuff about them, so chances are she's heard about Egwene's training as a Dreamwalker - she's Brown and this is one of her area of particular interest, and she's really good at hunting for info. So she had a good reason to suspect Egwene can deliver the message somehow. The least she could do was ask Egwene whether she has any way to contact Elayne soon, which would've taken her 30 seconds.

 

AFAIK the wise ones only taught the Aes Sedai about respect mostly, not really anything important like Dreamwalking.

 

Also Verin's area of Expertise is The Shadow and it's structures, NOT Dreamwalking. (is she knew enough about dreamwalking why didn' she teach egwene?)

 

Also with the options Verin gave mat A) open it after so many days or B) don't open it at all. I would presume she had a back up in case he chose option 2.

So she had a good reason to suspect Egwene can deliver the message somehow.

 

She also had a good reason to suspect that mat would open the letter and deliver the message.

Also at that point in time she had no idea what position Egwene was in, for all Verin knew she could have been under guard 24hr a day or worse.

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If Caemlyn gets burned to the ground and the people get eaten Mat has no responsibility, and neither does Verin. Why? Because it's not their bloody jobs. It's Elayne's plain and simple.

 

I agree with this, but I had to look at the poll question again. The question is "who is at fault for Caemlyn being under attack?" Not "who is at fault if it gets burned to the ground and everyone dies."

 

 

Now, it is Elayne's fault that the city is mostly abandoned and everyone might die. But the waygate issue is only partially her fault. Even Rand thinks guarding them and taking the leaves out is enough to stop the bad guys, and he has a lot more knowledge of waygates than Elayne.

 

 

personally I think caemlyn is screwed

 

I doubt this very much for two reasons. 1. Mat intends to go there, 2. The palace was intact in Aviendha's future and Caemlyn seemed fine.

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Also Verin's area of Expertise is The Shadow and it's structures, NOT Dreamwalking. (is she knew enough about dreamwalking why didn' she teach egwene?)

She didn't want to and didn't have the Talent. Remember, she had the Corianin Nedeal notes on TAR, the last Dreamer and expert on TAR, in her possession and kept them secret from Egwene. She told Egwene she had tried the ring for accessing TAR at least once. Verin knew a lot about TAR, Dreaming and Dreamwalking even before she went to the Aiel.

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Verin knew a lot about TAR, Dreaming and Dreamwalking even before she went to the Aiel.

 

I disagree. From everything we know Corianin was barely a Dreamer. Her Talent in it was so weak that they only called her a Dreamer because there had been no others in the Tower for a very long time. Her notes amounted to a few 400yo sheets that could have covered as little as the reflection of the real world in T'a'R and how thinsg that happened there could translate to the real world(maybe not even that much considering Verin's scar).

 

I also doubt that the Wise Ones taught her anything or even spoke to her more than was required. Think back to how they treated Egwene when they thought she was Aes Sedai. Anything Verin learned from the Aiel would have been through observation only. Which, Verin being Verin, she probably found extremely interesting even if they had her digging holes from sunup to sundown.

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I don't think this is mat's fault at all. There is no way he could have known what was in that letter and after all of the manipulating that the AS do I don't think I would have opened it either. Either way it's not his fault cause he didn't know, plain as that. All of the "he should have because it could have been this or it could have been that" is useless speculation. He didn't know what was in it and he was not told that he had to open it. He was told he could open it and that it was important to her. But who in their right mind would leave you a letter about an attack from shadow spawn. We now Verin is BA, but mat didn't know that so how could have even guess that it could be something as important as that.

 

IMO it's Elayne's fault. She's the queen and she seems to think that she is smart as can be so why didn't she plan for attack(especially since she had a hint of it from the BA). I'll tell you why, because she was too busy scheming and trying to take over Cairhien. I know that they doubled the guard and that's a good first step, but when you're dealing with fades & BA that can both kill a guardsman in an instant how could you ever think that that was enough to keep your city safe. Lastly why did she take any of her forces to talk with Rand??? What does she need them for? to show power? she's the queen. to attack Rand if he doesn't change his mind? that's rediculous. To be ready to move to the LB? Well she doesn't support Rand's plan so why do that and anyways there are gateways so what's it matter. It just doesn't make sense to take any of the military when there is a possibility of attack. She's the queen and she should have done a better job of protecting her country.

 

I hope that Caemlyn is ok because it's always been one of my favorites but i'm a little upset about how Elayne is ruling. She thinks she's great cause she's so clever(and she is), but Andor is supposed to be pure, or at least more pure than most other places and I just feel that her people deserve more than to be passed over immediately for rule over Cairhien.

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actually everyone took there armies to the fields of whatever because itseasier to have them at hand then launch a strike then have to gate back organize then gate out the armies. And we know that rand is planning to strike from the fields to where ever, so he intends to gather the armies, inform them whats happening and attack before DFs have a chance to report whats happening.

 

as to Avi's future thing i am pretty sure that is going to be a false future since she is set to change it, plus it could have been a rebuilt caemlyn.

 

so I think and hope caemlyn falls.

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