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Caemlyn in the Epilogue. Poll.


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Caemlyn  

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  1. 1. Whose Fault Is Caemlyn



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Drifter- Verin told Egwene that Tomas was spending that time with his family, but that he had eaten poison and died there.

 

Did she actually say that? I'm only remembering she said he was going to spend his last hours with his family. I could be wrong but that'd be a very Aes Sedai thing to say in this case. I do remember there being a big discussion on what exactly Tomas was doing and why he had to die when Verin could have just released him from the warder bond. Speculation seemed centered around him taking the Horn of Valere to Caemlyn but he's still a loose thread in the plot.

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Rand would have secured the Lion Throne and even left Aiel for Elayne but miss priss didn't want it. She was even what...taking a scolding tone with Rand for daring to secure the throne for her magesty, I believe. If I was Rand...I would have been like, "your unhappy for what I did? Fine, go in the kitchen and fix me a sannich!" Lol JK! incoming hate posts.

 

That is a scene I would love to see. Maybe help Miss Priss see the bigger picture than just her own small corner of the world.(even its about to burn...)

 

Though I think the blame is still to be shared between Elayne and Verin. Verin could have a shorter timespan than 30 days. Mat is well known for actually keeping his word so when he agreed to Verin's terms why are people surprised he stuck to them?

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It is the Patterns fault. It needed for this to happen. Verin thought his ta'veren nature would make sure Caemlyn would be safe, but the pattern made sure that Mat wouldn't open it. This event will unite every single mercenary band outside caemlyn with the Band of the Red Hand and probably have other significant effects as well.

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As far as the Nakomi idea...its been discussed but I doubt it personally. I think she may or may not come back in the last book but for some reason I find myself doubting its Verin though I can't completely rule it out either.

 

Edit: fixed "book one" to read "the last book"

 

 

Oh, I don't think Verin is coming back at all. I think Aviendha's PoV chronologically takes place before Verin met up with Egwene.

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I also put the blame squarely on Rand's shoulders. The Waygates that are known to be INSIDE the major cities (not Tear, since it's Waygate is on the Plains of Maredo) should have been LOCKED, not warded, not guarded, not watched. LOCKED! Just like Loial did to the Manetherin waygate. And Bashere (as one of the Great Captains) should have made this point to him. If someone has a Way to bring thousands of troops at once to a place BEHIND YOUR LINES OF DEFENSE, then you destroy or wall up that Way. While bringing enough channelers to Caemlyn or Cahirien to destroy the Waygates there might be problematic, it only takes a pair of hands to open the gate, remove the leaf from inside, and remove the leaf from outside and store them in someplace safe (like the Great Holding in Tear). But instead he puts wards and guards. I agree with that for the Waygates that are in the countryside, but only the ones that are outside city walls.

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It is the Patterns fault. It needed for this to happen. Verin thought his ta'veren nature would make sure Caemlyn would be safe, but the pattern made sure that Mat wouldn't open it. This event will unite every single mercenary band outside caemlyn with the Band of the Red Hand and probably have other significant effects as well.

 

I agree with this. Blame a single thread in the pattern for a massive trolloc assault? Every time the shadow strikes it brings the forces of light together. It is too early for Rand to break the seals because the forces of light are not yet united: the Seanchan are about to attack the White Tower (two must become one before the Final Battle), and the Two Rivers fellowship do not fully trust each other (Egwene is calling on monarchs to stand against Rand because she thinks she knows more about the seals than the Dragon Reborn, and she does not trust her oldest friend in the world, Rand). This lack of trust will leave the meeting at the Fields of Merrilor into disarray, and the only thing that will unite all of the forces together will be the message of Caemlyn's attack. The Dark One is unwittingly forcing the good guys to unite, again.

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I agree with this. Blame a single thread in the pattern for a massive trolloc assault? Every time the shadow strikes it brings the forces of light together. It is too early for Rand to break the seals because the forces of light are not yet united: the Seanchan are about to attack the White Tower (two must become one before the Final Battle), and the Two Rivers fellowship do not fully trust each other (Egwene is calling on monarchs to stand against Rand because she thinks she knows more about the seals than the Dragon Reborn, and she does not trust her oldest friend in the world, Rand). This lack of trust will leave the meeting at the Fields of Merrilor into disarray, and the only thing that will unite all of the forces together will be the message of Caemlyn's attack. The Dark One is unwittingly forcing the good guys to unite, again.

 

I want to thank you and GusE (I apparently missed GusE's post - having just read over 100 before it. lol) because I had not really considered the full impact of the attack on Camelyn and that maybe under normal circumstances Mat's curiosity would have caused him to open it, but the Pattern didn't want the warning given. He wants to open it, in fact he pulls it out and looks at it almost as often as Thom read the letter from Moraine. But, much like early in the books when he was trying to get away from Rand, the Pattern will not let him open it, because he has to go save Moraine AND because the attack NEEDS to happen. Very Neat. I like it. Rand can be forgiven for not locking the Waygates, the Pattern probably would not have let him.

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Don't you be dissing Mr. Ares, man! Even though I don't agree with him on this one (than I didn't follow this thread very well for the last couple pages; who do you blame Mr. Ares? rolleyes.gif If it is Mat you blame, talk to the hand!) he has an ability to start very interesting topics. And usually he says interesting things that make sense.

Are we talking about the same Mr. Ares? :rolleyes:

 

I have been playing the blame game in this thread cause it has been fun for me actually, lol. I have no idea why either. What happened happened. With that said, I got to argue :) with the Rand portion of your analysis.

 

Rand would have secured the Lion Throne and even left Aiel for Elayne but miss priss didn't want it. She was even what...taking a scolding tone with Rand for daring to secure the throne for her magesty, I believe. If I was Rand...I would have been like, "your unhappy for what I did? Fine, go in the kitchen and fix me a sannich!" Lol JK! incoming hate posts.

 

As far as the Nakomi idea...its been discussed but I doubt it personally. I think she may or may not come back in the last book but for some reason I find myself doubting its Verin though I can't completely rule it out either.

 

Edit: fixed "book one" to read "the last book"

Rand is the reason there was a civil war. No nation likes a conqueror or occupying troops. That's a recurring theme in the Westlands (see Tear, Cairhien, Altara, Tarabon, and Andor). Saying he was "giving the throne to Elayne" did as much damage as Rahvin-controlled Morgase.

 

I doubt Nakomi was Verin but there's no way to tell.

 

Would someone like to tell Goramier that that might be because he isn't reading any views that might inconveniently conflict with his own?
Pot, meet kettle...
Whose views haven't I read?

Mine!

 

Slightly off topic but while reading this I recalled something we're still missing. What about Tomas? He's "visiting family" or something, aren't they in Caemlyn? I wouldn't be surprised if we see him next year!

If he's not dead, he has the Warder's rage if Verin didn't release him. If he was released and the Great Lord knows of Verin's betrayal (which he probably does), then he's a marked man.

 

Elayne- She is Queen of Andor, the defense of Caemlyn is ultimately her responsibility. Whether she did everything she could to defend against an attack or not, the city is her responsibility. Of course, if she is halfway intelligent, she has told the Kin in her city where she will be. The moment the city is under attack, the kin can jump to FoM to bring her and her army back (and any other army there).

She did. She put her nation on alert, beefed up the borders and created war machines. What more is there to do?

 

in the end, when Caemlyn burns, it is the Queen of Andor's responsibility. Else, why is she the Queen?
Yes, but when you do everything you can to prepare and the .... still hits the fan, you just have to shrug and try to make things right.

 

of course Caemlyn is Elaynes responsibility, the main question being whether or not she took proper actions in the preceding events leadin to the burnin of caemlyn

She did.

 

That is a scene I would love to see. Maybe help Miss Priss see the bigger picture than just her own small corner of the world.(even its about to burn...)

Your dislike of Elayne has no merit. ToM is full of examples of her bettering and protecting her nation (see her deals with the Kin, Mat/the Band/the dragons and Perrin etc) and the fact she did that and won a civil war and prepared her nation for Tarmon Gaidin should say something.

 

It is the Patterns fault. It needed for this to happen. Verin thought his ta'veren nature would make sure Caemlyn would be safe, but the pattern made sure that Mat wouldn't open it. This event will unite every single mercenary band outside caemlyn with the Band of the Red Hand and probably have other significant effects as well.

You might be right about the mercenary bands joining with the Band. I disagree with you on your first point however. Mat was the one who made the choice not the Pattern as per Egwene's Dream of him balancing two Aes Sedai on a scale. I do think he made the right choice but time will tell.

 

I agree with this. Blame a single thread in the pattern for a massive trolloc assault? Every time the shadow strikes it brings the forces of light together. It is too early for Rand to break the seals because the forces of light are not yet united: the Seanchan are about to attack the White Tower (two must become one before the Final Battle), and the Two Rivers fellowship do not fully trust each other (Egwene is calling on monarchs to stand against Rand because she thinks she knows more about the seals than the Dragon Reborn, and she does not trust her oldest friend in the world, Rand). This lack of trust will leave the meeting at the Fields of Merrilor into disarray, and the only thing that will unite all of the forces together will be the message of Caemlyn's attack. The Dark One is unwittingly forcing the good guys to unite, again.
They are completely different people than the were in the Two Rivers. Also, if I told you to defeat the evil cthulhu-like dark god, we had to free him completely of the one thing that was keeping him from unraveling existence as we know it, you'd try to talk me out of it even if I was the Savior.

 

I want to thank you and GusE (I apparently missed GusE's post - having just read over 100 before it. lol) because I had not really considered the full impact of the attack on Camelyn and that maybe under normal circumstances Mat's curiosity would have caused him to open it, but the Pattern didn't want the warning given. He wants to open it, in fact he pulls it out and looks at it almost as often as Thom read the letter from Moraine. But, much like early in the books when he was trying to get away from Rand, the Pattern will not let him open it, because he has to go save Moraine AND because the attack NEEDS to happen. Very Neat. I like it. Rand can be forgiven for not locking the Waygates, the Pattern probably would not have let him.

Prophecy says that Mat had to choose between two Aes Sedai and the fate of the world rested on it. Let's hope he made the right choice.
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I have read every post in this thread, I have no one on ignore and have given each person's opinion ample thought.

 

I think most of the people blaming Elayne are using three points of arguement:

1. sending the bulk of her force to FoM despite the warning

2. not destroying the waygate completely

3. It's her city = her blame

 

Some people are also letting their dislike for her personality taint their view of the issue here and are unable to look logically at her actions and the situation at hand to assess blame(which is in fact what this whole thread is about).

 

THE BIGGEST FACTOR THAT ALMOST EVERYONE IS OVERLOOKING THUS FAR IN THIS THREAD OR AT THE VERY LEAST HASN'T BEEN STRESSED ENOUGH IS THAT TARMON GAI'DON IS HERE!!! THE LAST BATTLE. The battle to end all battles you lose this battle and you lose EVERYTHING not just one city but humanity itself.

 

The Dragon Reborn is meeting everyone at FoM and than the NEXT day he is going to shayol Ghul,and is going to break the last three seals releasing the most deadly, evil force known to man upon the planet. We the reader know that this has to be done and is probably the only way to seal the DO completely or soundly, however, there is only a small select few who know this is the right course of action already: Rand, Min, Cad and a few of her pack, Perrin(with his uncanny common sense and blacksmith problem solving) and maybe Nyn (but she is on the fence). Everyone else has to see this as complete madness. Elayne knows Rand has changed for the better but has not communicated with him in a very long time and has know idea as to the extent of the knowledge or enlightenment he has gained. She trust Egwene, as a best friend, and agrees with her plan to show up in force to put on a united front to stop Rand and change his mind about breaking the seals. Although it would be disastrous for the two sides to fight, there is a potential for conflict here. Every single man, women and child who can fight is needed for the last battle, the last conflict that is starting now at FoM and than at Shayol Ghul one day later. There is no holding back you have to go all in here, you leave behind just enough of your guard to keep order and a small force to delay an attack long enough to have kin travel and bring back reinforcements. She did all of this and more as stated in multi. previous post thus far. Elayne even waited till the very last min. to travel to FoM as stated by Egwene when they are walking across the field to meet each other.

 

1. The warning

Elayne was given a vague warning by a BA darkfriend prisoner who didn't mention where, when or how Andor was going to be invaded. Come on, you really expect her to leave the bulk of her forces behind and risk the success of Tarmon Gai'don on that. She did what she could based on the information she had, if she had Verin's info she would of definitely left her army and went to FoM herself and said, "Hey Tarmon Gai'don is in my backyard so my army will remain there and I could use your help,than we can discuss the seals and go to Shayol Ghul afterward."

 

2.Complete destruction of the Waygate

Just because it was mention in the books that a circle of 13 are needed to destroy a Waygate does not mean anyone actually knows HOW to do it or that Elayne is aware of this. Rand, Loial, Elder Haman closed the Waygates to the best of their ability by taking all the leaf keys. Surely the Caemlyne Waygate was stripped of its leafs and if not RJ/BS are really going to have a hard time convincing me of why this precaution was not taken. So realistically can you fault Elayne for not protecting the waygate any better than it already is? This would take around the clock guarding with probably a handful of powerful channels linked to nullify the threat and she still couldn't do anything about guarding the inside of the waygate and would have no idea what is going on right on the other side. Once again this is assuming she even has information that the waygate could even be opened again in the first place.

 

3.It's her city = her blame

This statement and logic is really poor, do I even need to go into it. Just because Elayne's city was pick to be attacked it is automatically her fault because she is the Monarch. This logic is like saying because the police randomly pulled over my car during a sobriety check that I must be guilty or am at fault. Every Monarch is vulnerable to attack right now, like I said before you can't hold half your army back and risk losing TG, what good is it going to do if you lose. NOTHING

 

 

Okay so if Elayne is not to blame than who is?

 

Obviously Verin

I mean come on, she knew where the Dark Forces where going to launch their major offensive and she tells ONE person with ONE note and she doesn't stress how extremely important it is that Matt actually read it. Verin also assumes she knows Matt's character or what he is capable of and that he will definitely open and read the letter breaking his oath/word in 2-3 days. She also goes so far as to undermine her own goal(Matt reading the letter) by giving Matt, who she knows does not trust her and other AS, an option to not read it at all. For Verin to make these assumptions and put the ridiculous stipulation on Matt having to do whatever it says in the letter if he opens it, is completely unnecessary and is a huge gamble/risk that is out of character for Verin and makes no sense.

 

In the note Verin writes, "Fortunately, if there's one thing I believe I can rely upon, it is your curiosity. I suspect you lasted a few days before opening this letter, which is long enough for me to have returned if I were going to"(p.837).

 

On a side note, anyone who puts another person on ignore just for having a different opinion than his/hers loses all most all credibility in a discussion thread with me. This person didn't attack you personally or write anything offensive in fact he/she made a very logically argument.

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1. The warning

Elayne was given a vague warning by a BA darkfriend prisoner who didn't mention where, when or how Andor was going to be invaded. Come on, you really expect her to leave the bulk of her forces behind and risk the success of Tarmon Gai'don on that. She did what she could based on the information she had, if she had Verin's info she would of definitely left her army and went to FoM herself and said, "Hey Tarmon Gai'don is in my backyard so my army will remain there and I could use your help,than we can discuss the seals and go to Shayol Ghul afterward."

 

2.Complete destruction of the Waygate

Just because it was mention in the books that a circle of 13 are needed to destroy a Waygate does not mean anyone actually knows HOW to do it or that Elayne is aware of this. Rand, Loial, Elder Haman closed the Waygates to the best of their ability by taking all the leaf keys. Surely the Caemlyne Waygate was stripped of its leafs and if not RJ/BS are really going to have a hard time convincing me of why this precaution was not taken. So realistically can you fault Elayne for not protecting the waygate any better than it already is? This would take around the clock guarding with probably a handful of powerful channels linked to nullify the threat and she still couldn't do anything about guarding the inside of the waygate and would have no idea what is going on right on the other side. Once again this is assuming she even has information that the waygate could even be opened again in the first place.

 

3.It's her city = her blame

This statement and logic is really poor, do I even need to go into it. Just because Elayne's city was pick to be attacked it is automatically her fault because she is the Monarch. This logic is like saying because the police randomly pulled over my car during a sobriety check that I must be guilty or am at fault. Every Monarch is vulnerable to attack right now, like I said before you can't hold half your army back and risk losing TG, what good is it going to do if you lose. NOTHING

 

 

Ok first, I like the way you approached this with sense and limited bias, but I have a few points to make about your explanations. I'd like to see your answers.

 

1. The warning

I agree that the warning was vague, but it is also clear that the warning was earnest. TG is of the utmost importance, but she doesn't even know the plan yet, there's no reason to have troops without a plan when traveling provides nearly instant transportation for leads to get to troops and then deploy where needed. Also, the rulers of Tear and Illian are tentative about leaving their cities and they don't have a warning of invasion.

 

2. Complete Destruction of Waygate

I agree it would be nearly impossible to completely destroy the waygate or to provide adequate guards to stop a tide of trollocs from running out. However, as far as I know there isn't anything stopping you from just putting something in front of the door. A wall of Air tied off or just a huge pile of rocks placed just in front of the door. It seems like this would do the trick and wouldn't be too hard(And this would also result in almost guaranteed destruction of any attacking force by machin shin, which is always a plus). If they have channelers then maybe they could circumvent these defenses, but then at least you have a warning because you'd notice a wall of rocks being moved. Either way it would be better than not having anything or just having guards.

 

3. It's here city = it's her blame

I don't agree with your analogy here. I think it makes more sense to say that it's like if a robber decides to break into my house and kills my family while i'm gone. I would most definitely feel responsible for this, especially if I hadn't put a security system in my house. This still accounts for what you said about just randomly being picked, because the robber could have broke into anyone's house, but they broke into mine and it's my responsibility.

 

So in summation, I liked your use of common sense, but I just don't agree. I feel that it is Elayne's fault and I think that my points are pretty good.

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The will of the Pattern and ta'veren are such neat excuses for even the most blatant plot devices, aren't they? :biggrin:

 

I apologize for the length, but this idea interests me. What was blatant to me was the author's attempt to make sure the reader understands the full significance of the will of the Pattern and its dependence on timing. Remember the difficulty Verin had in reaching Tar Valon from Tear in The Gathering Storm as the pattern demanded she find Mat and give him the letter in the first place. It was clear to Verin that she was unable to travel because of Mat's ta'varen, and can we blame her for incorrectly surmising that the reason was so she could alert Mat of the attack and take the Band of the Red Hand to Caemlyn as quickly as possible? She is the only one with the knowledge, Mat and the Band can save the city, and their paths are forced together. Obviously, the reason they met was not for Mat to save Caemlyn or he would have done so, so why did the Pattern force them to meet? Three possible reasons: 1. So Mat could begin making dragons ASAP, 2. So Mat could save Moiraine at a very specific time, and 3. So Verin would not tell anyone else of Caemlyn's peril after having incorrectly assumed that her forced encounter with Mat was the Pattern's way of saving Caemlyn. If she did not firmly believe that Mat's ta'varen would force him to open the letter and save Caemlyn, then she would very likely have written another letter for Elayne or told Egwene and successfully stopped the attack. Sometimes the Pattern has grander ideas, and sometimes a few eggs need to break to make an omelet.

 

Rulers are sometimes faced with tough decisions in which the sacrifice of a few could justify the saving of thousands. This is a strange case in which, for a reason I think we'll discover, it was paramount that Mat save Moiraine instead of Caemlyn. From prophecy we know that the entire world relies on Moiraine's rescue. And when Olver beats the game of snakes and foxes in the same way (by going forward and then backtracking his steps) and at the same exact instinct that Mat beats the real snakes and foxes, we are given a clue that the event happened at the exact time it was prophesied to. If Olver hadn't beaten the game for the first time ever, Talmanes would not have been distracted and scratch his chin in wonder, and Olver would not have noticed the letter and had an opportunity to read it. How long would it have taken the Band to realize Caemlyn was burning if Talmanes had not read the letter? Ten minutes? Twenty? Will this give him just enough time to alert Mat, save the dragons and stop the shadow from stealing the biggest technological military advantage of the Third Age?

 

Sure, Verin was betting on Mat's curiosity, but she was really betting on the will of the Pattern, which is sort of like playing roulette, I guess. This is is one of the few cases where the pattern would not allow someone to act as they normally would, in this case, Mat. Can you think of other time where someone really, really wanted to do something, but every time they tried to, something came up? It's difficult to notice while in someone's P.O.V because they keep rationalizing why they aren't acting like they would normally act. The will of the pattern is like the Creator's compulsion; it resembles the false reasoning that compulsion victims tell themselves.

 

Usually people act as their personality dictates: Perrin cautiously, Mat recklessly, Elayne haughtily. Mat has always recklessly jumped into things and rolled the dice before bothering to learn the rules to the game he's playing. Games that involve the One Power or helping Aes Sedai haven't curtailed his curiosity either, they seem to be his specialty. Rescue captured Aes Sedai from a fortress controlled by Seanchan? Alrighty. Go into a strange, twisted doorway leading to another realm? Sounds like fun. Back into a similar doorway even though they almost killed you in the first one? Works for me. A third time to save Moraine Sedai, you ask? Let's do it. Open up a letter from Verin, even after 30 days? Uh, ask me again in another month. How many times did Mat find himself with his thumb under the seal, staring at the letter and wondering why his arm couldn't move? I'm pretty sure he was holding it during the Gholum attack. But Mat isn't a philosopher, he doesn't want to consider how being ta'veren can control the pattern, and he will be damned before he admits that the pattern might be controlling him in turn. So he tells himself that he won't open it up because he's trustworthy and honorable and sick of Aes Sedai schemes, even as he plans to rescue yet another Aes Sedai, the first to put an Aes Sedai hook in him. He won't open up a letter because it might entangle him in Aes Sedai but plans to go into the single most dangerous place not on this earth to save an Aes Sedai. No wonder we think he's being irrational.

 

There are very few characters who accept that certain rare and important events and people are dictated by the pattern. Moridin keeps trying to alter it age after age, poor guy. Even Rand doesn't realize that he was never in danger when Paitar faced him with the prophecy at Far Madding. This was the Pattern's fail safe. Because Rand did fail at Dragonmount, he remembers how Lews Therin murdered Tellindal Tirraso, and Paitar will not kill him and let "the final days have their storm." Verin was becoming a believer in the Pattern, Moraine is another. Not many Aes Sedai go around saying everything is the will of the Pattern, most of them are still meeting behind Egwene's back and scurrying for power, with the Borderlands being overrun they scurry, come on ladies! Verin went through 20 different inn rooms, watched the inns burn down, sat through storms and had a tree fall on her before she finally accepted that the pattern wasn't going to let her stay in one place long enough to travel. It is true that Verin made a huge mistake, she correctly thought the Pattern was at work, she was wrong about what the Pattern was working on.

 

Verin did not consider the possibility that the assault on Caemlyn is a necessary cause likely toward a necessary effect. Verin is, however, becoming a master of ta'varen, having studied Rand and then Perrin extensively for a year. She traveled with Rand in the Great Hunt and sought out Perrin in the Two Rivers for the sole purpose of studying ta'varen. She learned that they could sway any mind and direct any situation in order to upset a huge disadvantage against opposing forces. Both the victory over the Seanchan at Falme and the victory over Isam at the Two Rivers were stunning upsets, and the ta'varen were critical in mobilizing forces that could overcome such over-whelming odds. Verin was now fully convinced that if she could simply find a way to ensure that Mat was somewhere in Caemlyn at the time of the attack than the pattern would use him to correct itself. In the letter Verin stated that even had Elayne had her entire army in the city's walls that it was still likely to fall. I have no fear of the entire city being sacked, however. Mat's assessment of the Palace being able to withstand a long siege even if the rest of the city were lost seems to be foreshadowing of the attack. It's the dragons that are really at stake.

 

As an aside, I find it interesting that the only character to fully accept the will of the pattern is Moiraine, and for good reason. Her sole purpose was to find and guide the Dragon Reborn. It's better to accept that you have as little chance in slowing down a hurricane as in changing Rand's mind, and since every time Rand farts he might start a hurricane in Shara, it's good to tell yourself the Pattern is at work. All Moiraine or Cadsuane or Verin can do is offer friendly advice and hope the Pattern doesn't make Rand smite them. Moiraine reminds me of Qui-Jon Ginn from Star Wars, every time his ship loses power or a leviathan is about to consume him he is completely calm knowing that the force will guide him. Morpheus from the Matrix is the same way, though I think he lost the faith somewhere in the middle there. They each carry the Chosen One as an apprentice, and they believe so firmly in the will of the Pattern because, due to their roles, they have very little ability to alter it.

 

Finally, I imagine the meeting in Merrilor turning into an absolute shit-storm as Egwene and Elayne try to bully Rand and Perrin, Perrin looks at Rand and gestures to his new hammer, Rand gives him the wink and mod and starts loading the True Power, and in runs Mat waving his bloody hat wondering why they arguing while the world and his hat is on fire, and everyone will be ashamed of being less rational than Matrim Cauthon.

Edited by Vatican Assassin
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Finally, I imagine the meeting in Merrilor turning into an absolute shit-storm as Egwene and Elayne try to bully Rand and Perrin, Perrin looks at Rand and gestures to his new hammer, Rand gives him the wink and mod and starts loading the True Power, and in runs Mat waving his bloody hat wondering why they arguing while the world is on fire, and everyone will be ashamed of being less rational than Matrim Cauthon.

 

That would be awesome. Mat´s hat should be on fire too though.

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Verin could have a shorter timespan than 30 days.
I'm still not sure how this is supposed to help. One of the points of the wait is to be onerous, in order to nudge him towards opening the letter. If anything, she should have gone for a longer wait, but he wouldn't agree to that.

 

I also put the blame squarely on Rand's shoulders. The Waygates that are known to be INSIDE the major cities (not Tear, since it's Waygate is on the Plains of Maredo) should have been LOCKED, not warded, not guarded, not watched. LOCKED! Just like Loial did to the Manetherin waygate. And Bashere (as one of the Great Captains) should have made this point to him. If someone has a Way to bring thousands of troops at once to a place BEHIND YOUR LINES OF DEFENSE, then you destroy or wall up that Way. While bringing enough channelers to Caemlyn or Cahirien to destroy the Waygates there might be problematic, it only takes a pair of hands to open the gate, remove the leaf from inside, and remove the leaf from outside and store them in someplace safe (like the Great Holding in Tear). But instead he puts wards and guards. I agree with that for the Waygates that are in the countryside, but only the ones that are outside city walls.
For one thing, even removing both leaves is something a channeler can cut through - it would take outright destruction (the solution Verin proposed) to really prevent it being used. For another, a Waygate in an enemy city is a poor choice of invasion route. It's a choke point. You can have, at most, two Trollocs abreast coming through a Waygate. That means to build up serious numbers of them, you need a lot of time, and a lot of space (you don't want to launch the attack before you have built up enough strength). A Waygate outside a city doesn't have as much of a problem in this regard (such as the use of the Manetheren Waygate to build up forces for the TR assault in TSR). There is also the problem of Machin Shin - large numbers of Trollocs moving through the Ways should attract it. It feasted at Manetheren, apparently, after Loial closed that Gate. Of course, the numbers that attacked Lord Algarin's manor in KoD indicate there is some as yet unknown problem with MS, that enable large numbers to pass through the Ways, but that still doesn't change the principle problem with moving large armies through the Ways, which is the choke point at the exit.

 

Would someone like to tell Goramier that that might be because he isn't reading any views that might inconveniently conflict with his own?
Pot, meet kettle...
Whose views haven't I read?
Mine!
Not any more!

 

I want to thank you and GusE (I apparently missed GusE's post - having just read over 100 before it. lol) because I had not really considered the full impact of the attack on Camelyn and that maybe under normal circumstances Mat's curiosity would have caused him to open it, but the Pattern didn't want the warning given. He wants to open it, in fact he pulls it out and looks at it almost as often as Thom read the letter from Moraine. But, much like early in the books when he was trying to get away from Rand, the Pattern will not let him open it, because he has to go save Moraine AND because the attack NEEDS to happen. Very Neat. I like it. Rand can be forgiven for not locking the Waygates, the Pattern probably would not have let him.
Prophecy says that Mat had to choose between two Aes Sedai and the fate of the world rested on it. Let's hope he made the right choice.
Hmmm. Seems to me that he didn't really choose between two AS here - it wasn't Moiraine or Verin, because he could have done both.

 

 

3.It's her city = her blame

This statement and logic is really poor, do I even need to go into it. Just because Elayne's city was pick to be attacked it is automatically her fault because she is the Monarch. This logic is like saying because the police randomly pulled over my car during a sobriety check that I must be guilty or am at fault. Every Monarch is vulnerable to attack right now, like I said before you can't hold half your army back and risk losing TG, what good is it going to do if you lose. NOTHING

I'd say it was more a matter of it being her responsibility as monarch to take reasonable steps to protect her people. She did so, so she is not really at fault for the attack, but had she failed to take reasonable steps to guard against it she would be at fault.

 

 

Okay so if Elayne is not to blame than who is?

 

Obviously Verin

I mean come on, she knew where the Dark Forces where going to launch their major offensive and she tells ONE person with ONE note and she doesn't stress how extremely important it is that Matt actually read it. Verin also assumes she knows Matt's character or what he is capable of and that he will definitely open and read the letter breaking his oath/word in 2-3 days. She also goes so far as to undermine her own goal(Matt reading the letter) by giving Matt, who she knows does not trust her and other AS, an option to not read it at all. For Verin to make these assumptions and put the ridiculous stipulation on Matt having to do whatever it says in the letter if he opens it, is completely unnecessary and is a huge gamble/risk that is out of character for Verin and makes no sense.

While she could have done more to encourage Mat to open it, I can't really agree with all of your points here. She gave Mat an opportunity not to open it for a good reason - she had to. If she hadn't, Mat wouldn't have taken her up on her offer to Travel to Caemlyn. Of course, I think there was risk no matter how she worded it. If she had given him the option of opening it but not following the instructions he might have done that. She could stress how important it was until she was blue in the face, but he still might have decided to avoid AS strings and not open it. She told him it needed to be done, and that he wouldn't find her instructions harsh, but he still didn't open the letter. Of course, giving letters out to more people might have improved the chances of one getting through, but it could be she didn't know if she could rely on those other people (if she hasn't met them, for example), or didn't have time to give out that many more letters. It might be there are good reasons why she didn't do other things, but the information we have does give us cause for a few questions.

 

On a side note, anyone who puts another person on ignore just for having a different opinion than his/hers loses all most all credibility in a discussion thread with me. This person didn't attack you personally or write anything offensive in fact he/she made a very logically argument.
Am I the only one curious as to why there should be confusion about the gender of a poster whose username starts with Mr? Anyway, I often annoy people, so I'm not surprised that some would chose not to read my posts. Of course, not reading posts does hamper ones ability to take part in a debate.
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3.It's her city = her blame

This statement and logic is really poor, do I even need to go into it. Just because Elayne's city was pick to be attacked it is automatically her fault because she is the Monarch. This logic is like saying because the police randomly pulled over my car during a sobriety check that I must be guilty or am at fault. Every Monarch is vulnerable to attack right now, like I said before you can't hold half your army back and risk losing TG, what good is it going to do if you lose. NOTHING

 

I'd say it was more a matter of it being her responsibility as monarch to take reasonable steps to protect her people. She did so, so she is not really at fault for the attack, but had she failed to take reasonable steps to guard against it she would be at fault.

 

Oh? Can I assume then that you believe she took reasonable steps to prevent the attack? Also that she would be at fault if she did not take the proper precautions before she left? You would agree to both of those statements, correct?

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Wow, this thread has grown, lol. It really just goes to show how devoted (dorks?) we all are to the series, that we debate such a point. Anyways, having some time away from the family fun and such I thought I would chime in again. I am going to attempt a double-triple-reversal quote loop of extraordinary proportions and see how it comes out. I am doing lots of copy action here so forgive name mispellings. I was never good at any WoT name as it is.

 

 

3.It's her city = her blame

This statement and logic is really poor, do I even need to go into it. Just because Elayne's city was pick to be attacked it is automatically her fault because she is the Monarch. This logic is like saying because the police randomly pulled over my car during a sobriety check that I must be guilty or am at fault. Every Monarch is vulnerable to attack right now, like I said before you can't hold half your army back and risk losing TG, what good is it going to do if you lose. NOTHING

[/Quote]

 

I totally and 100% disagree with this. This, IMO also shows just how bad this argument is. This makes zero sense. It is an analogy that is ten miles off. I don't mean to be insulting here, just pointing out the fact that this is no where near accurate. Just cause she is the Monarch, most definately means that she is absolutely responsible. No question here. This thought is just way, way off. It completely overlooks the simple fact that she had warning she was going to be attacked and that she took no steps (no real steps) to prevent it. She just went about her day as if it would be ok even in the face of such evidence (her own prisoners not only escaping but showing how capable they were, time and again) that it was up to her to personally see to the safety of the city. The analogy is so far off it completely reframes the topic. This is nothing like police and sobriety check points. Far from it. This isn't random. This isn't pulling over random people or just attacking some random city. Strategy plays a huge role in everything. This just completely glosses over strategy in every way.

 

She was warned. She knew it was coming. She knew she was vulnerable to attack. She had been told the waygate was secure but no evidence to support it. Since we do not know the extent of which she knew of the waygate, we can assume a great many things. But at the end of the day, it was her responsibility and no one elses. It could explain what Verin did. She may have given credity to Elayne as being Aes Sedai and Monarch and just assumed she would hold to her duty. A duty she failed and failed bad.

 

 

On a side note, anyone who puts another person on ignore just for having a different opinion than his/hers loses all most all credibility in a discussion thread with me. This person didn't attack you personally or write anything offensive in fact he/she made a very logically argument.

 

Hmmm...interesting. You are making huge logical leeps with little to go on and zero comprehension of what was said. I in no way implied this and you simply made it up or completely misinterpreted it. What I said is far different from what you did. You are wrong. Simple as that. And if I lost all credit with you, oh well. It's a small loss.

 

Despite a likely follow up misquote and/or misread, I care little for those who make up whatever fits their reasoning just to fit it and at the cost of a real argument and resolution. I say what I say because I believe it, not just to make up whatever to fit what I say, or have said. Also see below.

 

3. It's here city = it's her blame

I don't agree with your analogy here. I think it makes more sense to say that it's like if a robber decides to break into my house and kills my family while i'm gone. I would most definitely feel responsible for this, especially if I hadn't put a security system in my house. This still accounts for what you said about just randomly being picked, because the robber could have broke into anyone's house, but they broke into mine and it's my responsibility.

 

So in summation, I liked your use of common sense, but I just don't agree. I feel that it is Elayne's fault and I think that my points are pretty good.

 

I think that you are giving alot of credit here. The common sense is way off as-is the analogy. You analogy isn't much better. I think mine in a previous post is far better. This analogy is closer though, especially if you add the facts that you knew your house was likely to get robbed, knew there was a way in and had only been told that it was secure without bothering to check it, etc...

 

Don't be disheartened though. Your conclusion that Elayne is at fault is accurate. I just question your reasoning to get there.

 

Edit: misplellings and didn't even finish a read through nor got half as much down as I meant. Got stuff to do. Will come back to it. Also not sure why no names are shown. Anyways, later.

Edited by Goramier
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Elayne- She is Queen of Andor, the defense of Caemlyn is ultimately her responsibility. Whether she did everything she could to defend against an attack or not, the city is her responsibility. Of course, if she is halfway intelligent, she has told the Kin in her city where she will be. The moment the city is under attack, the kin can jump to FoM to bring her and her army back (and any other army there).

She did. She put her nation on alert, beefed up the borders and created war machines. What more is there to do?

 

in the end, when Caemlyn burns, it is the Queen of Andor's responsibility. Else, why is she the Queen?
Yes, but when you do everything you can to prepare and the .... still hits the fan, you just have to shrug and try to make things right.

We will see what effect her actions have had. With the number of channelers in Caemlyn there should be no reason to expect kin coming to warn elayne of what is happening there. I expect to see the trollocs get smashed between Elayne's army (with any allies) and the mercs coming in from outside of the city. If it doesn't happen, then she didn't take every precaution she could. In fact, I would expect Kin with travelling in every major Andoran town to operate as observation for her in case of the attack she was warned about. She has made use of the kin in similar forms before, I do not see why she wouldn't now. It is the simplest answer to whether she prepared andor for her absence.

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3. It's here city = it's her blame

I don't agree with your analogy here. I think it makes more sense to say that it's like if a robber decides to break into my house and kills my family while i'm gone. I would most definitely feel responsible for this, especially if I hadn't put a security system in my house. This still accounts for what you said about just randomly being picked, because the robber could have broke into anyone's house, but they broke into mine and it's my responsibility.

 

So in summation, I liked your use of common sense, but I just don't agree. I feel that it is Elayne's fault and I think that my points are pretty good.

 

I think that you are giving alot of credit here. The common sense is way off as-is the analogy. You analogy isn't much better. I think mine in a previous post is far better. This analogy is closer though, especially if you add the facts that you knew your house was likely to get robbed, knew there was a way in and had only been told that it was secure without bothering to check it, etc...

 

Don't be disheartened though. Your conclusion that Elayne is at fault is accurate. I just question your reasoning to get there.

 

Edit: misplellings and didn't even finish a read through nor got half as much down as I meant. Got stuff to do. Will come back to it. Also not sure why no names are shown. Anyways, later.

 

1. In my summation I said that he used common sense in the way he wrote, trying to remove bias. I didn't mean for that to say that he used common sense in that specific example. It was supposed to just be a compliment in that he didn't just go off on people and say they're wrong, he's right, end of story.

 

2. You make a good point that my analogy is a little lacking. I left out the warning, and I did this on purpose because some people seem to think that she didn't really have that good of a warning. I was really just trying to go with the softest analogy in the hopes that some of the people using nit-picky excuses for why Elayne didn't fail would see that that it's her home, her responsibility, and she didn't protect it. So, yes you are right she was warned and that makes it even worse that she didn't take the nessessary precautions to protect her people.

 

I still haven't seen anyone mention anything about my idea with blocking the gateway with rocks or a tied off weave of air. It seems like this would have been a simple and effective way to slow or stop the trollocs. If they have channelers then they could still get out of the ways but it would be slower and it would give much more warning. One person could easily watch at alert everyone if they noticed the rocks being moved or cut with the power.

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1. In my summation I said that he used common sense in the way he wrote, trying to remove bias. I didn't mean for that to say that he used common sense in that specific example. It was supposed to just be a compliment in that he didn't just go off on people and say they're wrong, he's right, end of story.

 

2. You make a good point that my analogy is a little lacking. I left out the warning, and I did this on purpose because some people seem to think that she didn't really have that good of a warning. I was really just trying to go with the softest analogy in the hopes that some of the people using nit-picky excuses for why Elayne didn't fail would see that that it's her home, her responsibility, and she didn't protect it. So, yes you are right she was warned and that makes it even worse that she didn't take the nessessary precautions to protect her people.

 

I still haven't seen anyone mention anything about my idea with blocking the gateway with rocks or a tied off weave of air. It seems like this would have been a simple and effective way to slow or stop the trollocs. If they have channelers then they could still get out of the ways but it would be slower and it would give much more warning. One person could easily watch at alert everyone if they noticed the rocks being moved or cut with the power.

 

Yeah great stuff from you. Sorry, I got cut off half way through and was lacking editing and finishing that the post seriously needed. I was typing with my daughter screaming at me and my niece yelling at her for hair pulling and uhhh...anyways, it was good. I just had a half baked post that didn't end up to well. Serves me right for trying something like that in the middle of having so many family members over.

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3.It's her city = her blame

This statement and logic is really poor, do I even need to go into it. Just because Elayne's city was pick to be attacked it is automatically her fault because she is the Monarch. This logic is like saying because the police randomly pulled over my car during a sobriety check that I must be guilty or am at fault. Every Monarch is vulnerable to attack right now, like I said before you can't hold half your army back and risk losing TG, what good is it going to do if you lose. NOTHING

 

I'd say it was more a matter of it being her responsibility as monarch to take reasonable steps to protect her people. She did so, so she is not really at fault for the attack, but had she failed to take reasonable steps to guard against it she would be at fault.

Oh? Can I assume then that you believe she took reasonable steps to prevent the attack? Also that she would be at fault if she did not take the proper precautions before she left? You would agree to both of those statements, correct?

Yes, I believe that Elayne did take reasonable steps, given what she knew, to prevent the attack. And yes, if she failed to take reasonable precautions, she would be at fault.

 

I still haven't seen anyone mention anything about my idea with blocking the gateway with rocks or a tied off weave of air. It seems like this would have been a simple and effective way to slow or stop the trollocs. If they have channelers then they could still get out of the ways but it would be slower and it would give much more warning. One person could easily watch at alert everyone if they noticed the rocks being moved or cut with the power.
The same effect could be achieved by taking away the leaves and putting anti-Shadowspawn weaves on the Waygate, the things we have seen Rand do elsewhere. It was likely guarded as well, although we don't know the specifics of what was done. Now, while your suggestions would have slowed down a Trolloc army under normal circumstances, we must bear in mind that Verin was insistent that the Waygate shouldn't just be blocked, it should be destroyed, and therefore your suggested precautions would likely have proved insufficient.
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To the people saying that Elayne took proper precautions..

 

She didn't. Simply because if you know your enemy is going to attack your country what do you do? put a token upgrade on the entire defense OR Since Caemyln is THE MAIN CITY in your country you kinda would assume it would be the target.

 

you KNOW there is a way to get into your city via Portal.

 

You put your Mercs and BAND, OUTSIDE the city. that doesn't sound like a well thought out defense to me.

 

If she was serious she would have taken a honor guard to the meet and left her army at the city.

 

That way if the city got attack it'll be easily defendable.

If it's near the borders the kin and travel the troops there rather then relying on messengers to get you the information third hand.

If you need the army to march to TG you can gate back and move still super quickly rather then having to send message to the rest of the forces to rejoin your army.

 

Elayne holds the majority blame for the city burning.

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While Caemlyn would be a major target in the event of an invasion, it would not necessarily be the only one, so increasing defences there rather than on the border leaves the rest of the country open. There is also the question of how to get to Caemlyn, and the obvious answer is across the borders. The Shadow has a history of moving large Trolloc formations overland - see the Trolloc Wars. The Waygate was defended, so any attack on the city would, of necessity, have to come from outside. Furthermore, no-one has yet made an attempt to address the weaknesses of the Ways as a route for a full scale invasion, particularly one located within a city that makes it harder to build up forces before the attack. I don't recall any specifics on the number of soldiers left behind, either in Caemlyn or Andor, so we cannot say the city was left undefended in case it was attacked. Of course, if someone can find a quote, that would be helpful. There are probably channelers left in the city who can get word to her at the FoM in the event of anything happening. The reasoning behind leaving them in the city appears to "on the off chance this is the day Caemlyn is unexpectedly attacked by an army that has managed to cross our border defences", which seems to me to be rather weak. She had somewhere for her army to be, and could return them to Andor quickly in the event of something more urgent arising. Remember, she is currently using her army to attempt to persuade Rand not to unleash a universe destroying God on Creation, something which does directly affect Andor, and thus she is doing her duty by her country in opposing Rand as well. The mercenaries were not in her employ at that point, I believe, so leaving them outside is not an unreasonable move. When they are required, she can hire them, and therefore bear the associated costs, but not before then. So, given the border was defended, we have no reason to believe the city was undefended, and the Waygate was defended, I do see her as having taken reasonable precautions to safeguard her realm against the threatened invasion.

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Regarding Verin not letting everyone know that the invasion was coming, I think you have to cut her some slack..Remember, she's under the restrictions placed upon her by her oaths to the Black Ajah. Until she figured out a way to release herself from those oaths she couldn't reveal what she knew. That's why she gave Mat the letter with the time restrictions; either she'd figure out a way to break the oaths and come back or Mat curiousity would get the better of him (Something beyond her control and so she wouldn't be breaking the oaths)...Plus she made sure that the band (The finest military unit in all of Randland) was at Camelyn to aid in the fight.

 

 

All in all, I think she did the best she could to get the warning out and help Camelyn when the invasion came..

 

As for Elayne and Mat, i'm not sure how either can have much fault..Mat had no idea that an invasion was even in the offing..All he knew was that Verin wanted him to hold onto a letter until she got back or open it and wait for a specified time period. As for Elayne, while she knew of that an invasion was in the offing, she didn't know anything beyond that. From her (and any reasonable person's) perspective, an invasion means just that: Andor is going to be invaded, not Caemlyn. I mean until very recently, except for the waygate (Which she didn't know about), there was no way to invade the city without first crossing the borders.

 

Beyond all of that, Mat's appearing when he does means that the city is actually very well defended, even without the troops...Because of his request for dragons, the defenders of Camelyn not only have the means to slaughter large numbers of trollocas, they have the trained crews to make us of those tools. Between the bands artillery and that held in the secret warehouse, the trollocas and their dreadlords are in for a very big surprise..IMHO, of course...

 

I wonder if that is the meaning of that Min's viewing of a bloodly hand being Elayne's salvation?

 

tud

Edited by Tud
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I still haven't seen anyone mention anything about my idea with blocking the gateway with rocks or a tied off weave of air. It seems like this would have been a simple and effective way to slow or stop the trollocs. If they have channelers then they could still get out of the ways but it would be slower and it would give much more warning. One person could easily watch at alert everyone if they noticed the rocks being moved or cut with the power.
The same effect could be achieved by taking away the leaves and putting anti-Shadowspawn weaves on the Waygate, the things we have seen Rand do elsewhere. It was likely guarded as well, although we don't know the specifics of what was done. Now, while your suggestions would have slowed down a Trolloc army under normal circumstances, we must bear in mind that Verin was insistent that the Waygate shouldn't just be blocked, it should be destroyed, and therefore your suggested precautions would likely have proved insufficient.

 

I know it wouldn't stop them, but if you put a huge pile of rocks in front of the door, it's still going to take time, even with channeling, to move them out of the way. Time is what is important. Time give you the ability to react rather then just getting overrun. I don't dispute that they would still get out of the waygate, but putting down a weave to sense channeling or movement and then covering up the door with rocks would be a simple and effective way to know when you're being attacked, slow down the attack, and then be able to get your defenses in line to protect your city.

 

I don't think this is too complicated of a strategy, it wouldn't use up a lot of man power, and it would be effective. I can't see why Elayne didn't do something like this.

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Rand did put the death ward on all the gates he had access to. He sent Loial and the AM to do the same for the steadings Ogier lived at. The problem, if one of the forsaken or an AM didn't take it down, is the shadowspawn don't just drop dead upon passing through the waygate. It would take a day or two for them to die. Up until then they were fine, no sickness or weakness at all. So assuming the all the Trollocs have left the waygate and no more are coming through they'll die in a couple days, still enough time to raise Caemlyn, however. So the problem was Rand's vicious streak.

 

My concern is whether or not there are Trollocs still in the ways. If the trollocs get some dragons and head back to the waygate there may be some ready to take them back to the blight.

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