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Caemlyn in the Epilogue. Poll.


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Caemlyn  

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  1. 1. Whose Fault Is Caemlyn



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Does Mat know Bodewin is in the Tower?

 

That isn't the issue. That letter could have contained any information at all. It might have had to do with his parents, his sister, something going on in Ebou Dar concerning his wife. It might have contained the location where she had hidden the Horn of Valere and intel about how to use it more effectively. It could have contained anything at all.

 

An adult would consider some or maybe all of those possibilities. An adult would have opened the letter.

 

Right. Despite his personal experience of Aes Sedai's never being exactly helpful, just after their own interest. Mat also had to consider his own mission of rescuing Moiraine. For all he knows Verin's instructions could take bloody long time to fulfil and once Mat opens that letter he's bound to fulfilling it to the letter. However long it takes.

 

It could even result in total disaster in last battle when Mat's busy doing whatever Verin told him to do rather than helping Rand.

 

Nice one.

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An adult would not jump into something without know where the hole goes and how deep.

 

True, but too late now. He'd already made his deal with Verin. He'd already given her his oath to do what the letter instructed.

 

He's weaseling. He's trying to take Verin's assistance without paying her price. That also makes him a thief.

 

Ummm he paid his price. He waited for the 30 days after he was free to go.

 

None in Verin's deal made the letter to be Big Deal. The fact Verin let him have option of NOT opening indicates that in fact it's likely NOT important enough that it MUST be read.

 

Hardly thief. He made deal with Verin and paid his side of it.

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While I accept that Mat is honorable, I don't think he would put honor before the safety of unknown numbers. Anything important could be written in the letter. It could have included instructions to receive the Horn, or (what it turned out to be) warning of an impending attack.

 

A good general knows that learning something earlier is rarely a bad thing.

 

Unquestioning Honor is predictable, and predictability makes for a bad general.

 

Something important would likely not be put in letter you are free to not read...That's what Mat could easily be thinking(and realistically would). I mean if it's VITAL information surely Verin wouldn't allow him to NOT read.

 

The mere fact Mat had option of not reading without breaking his deal with Verin indicates that it is NOT vital information and therefore it isn't disaster for Mat to not read it.

 

Of course Verin, being silly Aes Sedai, actually does just that. Puts in vital information, makes no big deal about the letter and then makes damned sure Mat will NOT open it.

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In Mat's shoes, I would find out what was in the leter, then decide on whether or not to act on it. If I had to AS my way around my oath, or just break it, I would do so.

 

Except Verin didn't give Mat that option. You open it, you do exactly as it says. That's the deal they made. Once Mat opens it he was bound to do whatever it says. "Go to borderland and meet whoever is in charge ASAP." Okay. Guess that means Moiraine won't be rescued in a hurry.

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Does Mat know Bodewin is in the Tower?

 

That isn't the issue. That letter could have contained any information at all. It might have had to do with his parents, his sister, something going on in Ebou Dar concerning his wife. It might have contained the location where she had hidden the Horn of Valere and intel about how to use it more effectively. It could have contained anything at all.

 

An adult would consider some or maybe all of those possibilities. An adult would have opened the letter.

 

Right. Despite his personal experience of Aes Sedai's never being exactly helpful, just after their own interest. Mat also had to consider his own mission of rescuing Moiraine. For all he knows Verin's instructions could take bloody long time to fulfil and once Mat opens that letter he's bound to fulfilling it to the letter. However long it takes.

 

It could even result in total disaster in last battle when Mat's busy doing whatever Verin told him to do rather than helping Rand.

 

Nice one.

By the same token, Verin's instructions could be done within a morning for all he knows, and by failing to carry them out he could be failing to do something that would really help Rand.

 

 

None in Verin's deal made the letter to be Big Deal. The fact Verin let him have option of NOT opening indicates that in fact it's likely NOT important enough that it MUST be read.
She said that it needed to be done. Surely that's an indication that it's important enough that it must be read?

 

 

While I accept that Mat is honorable, I don't think he would put honor before the safety of unknown numbers. Anything important could be written in the letter. It could have included instructions to receive the Horn, or (what it turned out to be) warning of an impending attack.

 

A good general knows that learning something earlier is rarely a bad thing.

 

Unquestioning Honor is predictable, and predictability makes for a bad general.

 

Something important would likely not be put in letter you are free to not read...That's what Mat could easily be thinking(and realistically would). I mean if it's VITAL information surely Verin wouldn't allow him to NOT read.

She didn't have much of a choice. Mat wanted to know what was in the letter. She couldn't tell him (due to her Oaths). He wouldn't go with her unless there was some compromise - him having the option to not read. It was either he has the choice of not reading it, or he doesn't take the letter to begin with. She went with the only option that allowed for the possibility of success - they all had the possibility of failure.

 

In Mat's shoes, I would find out what was in the leter, then decide on whether or not to act on it. If I had to AS my way around my oath, or just break it, I would do so.
Except Verin didn't give Mat that option. You open it, you do exactly as it says. That's the deal they made. Once Mat opens it he was bound to do whatever it says. "Go to borderland and meet whoever is in charge ASAP." Okay. Guess that means Moiraine won't be rescued in a hurry.
Breaking his oath was always an option. As for ASing his way around it, just get someone else to open it - Mat didn't, so he isn't bound to follow it, and whoever opened it wasn't oathbound to Verin anyway.
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I'm not entirely sure "blame" needs to be tossed around. In my opinion the letter given to Mat could not have been opened even if Mat had wanted to and Verin knew this.

Points for discussion:

1.) Verin was the DF not Mat, therefore the action of betrayal of the dark oaths had to come from Verin not Mat. Mat opening the letter isn't a betrayal of the oaths, the moment in which Verin wrote the letter to Mat was the betrayal.

2.) Due to the fact that Verin wrote the letter well before "the hour of her death", it would not be possible to open that letter until the information contained had already come to pass.

3.) We see a couple instances where Mat's curiousity is pushing him towards the letter, but always something "more important" comes up for Mat to deal with.

4.) When we finally see the letter opened, it occurs by chance and only after the information is no longer secret.

 

I really think the information contained is part of a larger picture which we will have painted for us when we can see all the information contained in the letters passed to everyone.

Edited by Mystraka
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waht I am curious about is that Talmanes wasnt informed of a sudden increase of light in caemlyn, since the band 'fortifies' each night with many watchmen. any decent watchmen would notice the amount of light start to increase and increase, since it would be something out of the ordinary.

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It doesn't matter that Verin's letter wasn't delivered in time, Elayne was told straight up an attack was coming and instead she decided to claim Cairhien and then abandon both.

 

Hopefully she took all the Dragons and Bellfounders with her. I suppose the cities themselves aren't as important as the Last Battle.

Edited by MyKillK
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Elayne was told straight up an attack was coming and instead she decided to claim Cairhien and then abandon both.
She didn't.
she took all the Dragons and Bellfounders with her.
She didn't.
I suppose the cities themselves aren't as important as the Last Battle.
They aren't.
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It doesn't matter that Verin's letter wasn't delivered in time, Elayne was told straight up an attack was coming and instead she decided to claim Cairhien and then abandon both.

 

Nope. She took all the sensible precautions against attack and then went to secure Cairhien which helps preparing for last battle and after it(monarch who ignores after part is bad monarch).

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I'm not entirely sure "blame" needs to be tossed around. In my opinion the letter given to Mat could not have been opened even if Mat had wanted to and Verin knew this.

Points for discussion:

1.) Verin was the DF not Mat, therefore the action of betrayal of the dark oaths had to come from Verin not Mat. Mat opening the letter isn't a betrayal of the oaths, the moment in which Verin wrote the letter to Mat was the betrayal.

2.) Due to the fact that Verin wrote the letter well before "the hour of her death", it would not be possible to open that letter until the information contained had already come to pass.

3.) We see a couple instances where Mat's curiousity is pushing him towards the letter, but always something "more important" comes up for Mat to deal with.

4.) When we finally see the letter opened, it occurs by chance and only after the information is no longer secret.

 

I really think the information contained is part of a larger picture which we will have painted to us when we can see all the information contained in the letters passed to everyone.

 

Very good points. I'm wondering, what was it that was stopping Mat? The Pattern? His luck? And can his luck act against the Pattern as well as for it, or is it a particular manifestation of the Pattern? Was Verin hoping that Mat's luck would act in Caemlyn's favour? If so, would she have even been able to write the letter in the first place?

 

My brain hurts..

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I think one important point is missed here. We all know the content of the letter.

 

Verin made Mat promise to follow the instructions... Not read it. Not act on it. Not any leeway whatsoever. It could be "Attack Seanchan now because of my dream" or "Move the band to location Y" for all he knows.

 

How anyone can possibly blame Mat for not opening the letter is beyond me. It's obvious that he is finally accepting some things he has to do (rescue, last battle, possibly war against his wife), and suddenly he finds himself in a position where he promise to obey unknown instructions.

 

Yeah right he'll do that.

 

Verin is to blame. It's very simple. If she had told him "This contains important information, but you must promise not to open it for 10 days", the whole situation would have been easily avoided.

 

More than anything, I find this to be a cheap plot trick to fix things so that the timeline makes more overall sense. I simply cannot see Verin not being smarter about it, or mentioning it to Egwene before she dies.

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I'm not entirely sure "blame" needs to be tossed around. In my opinion the letter given to Mat could not have been opened even if Mat had wanted to and Verin knew this.

Points for discussion:

1.) Verin was the DF not Mat, therefore the action of betrayal of the dark oaths had to come from Verin not Mat. Mat opening the letter isn't a betrayal of the oaths, the moment in which Verin wrote the letter to Mat was the betrayal.

2.) Due to the fact that Verin wrote the letter well before "the hour of her death", it would not be possible to open that letter until the information contained had already come to pass.

3.) We see a couple instances where Mat's curiousity is pushing him towards the letter, but always something "more important" comes up for Mat to deal with.

4.) When we finally see the letter opened, it occurs by chance and only after the information is no longer secret.

 

I really think the information contained is part of a larger picture which we will have painted to us when we can see all the information contained in the letters passed to everyone.

Very good points. I'm wondering, what was it that was stopping Mat? The Pattern? His luck? And can his luck act against the Pattern as well as for it, or is it a particular manifestation of the Pattern? Was Verin hoping that Mat's luck would act in Caemlyn's favour? If so, would she have even been able to write the letter in the first place?

My brain hurts..

 

 

In all honesty, I think as we being to be informed on the contents of Verin's other letters, we will see some sort of big picture as to her intentions. I don't think her intention was truly to avoid shadowspawn entering Caemlyn, more likely her intention was to provide a sliver of proof that she has more knowledge of the DO's plans than most, which gives any other information contained in her other letters more clout. I think the attack on Caemlyn will serve as a strengthening opportunity for the light.

 

 

It was the pattern preventing the letter from being opened. Mat's luck/Ta'veren nature affects how the pattern is written, it doesn't affect what has already been written however. When Verin wrote the letter, her oaths to the DO were still intact, and thus written into the pattern with regards to the letter.

Edited by Mystraka
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I simply cannot see Verin not being smarter about it, or mentioning it to Egwene before she dies.

 

I agree about Verin's intelligence concerning the letter, she was definately smart enought to think Mat wouldn't open it, and as for not mentioning it to Eggy, think about this:

 

What if she (Verin) had some other knowledge about upcoming events that has not yet been revealed to us as readers yet.

 

Verin was quite capable of lying withing the letter when she tells Mat that she thinks his curiosity will get the better of him, in fact considering how well she know Mat from tGH, you could almost say that the way she worded the 'bargain ' between her and Mat ensured that he wouldn't open it.

 

It's entirely possible that her line about his curiosity was only put there to make Mat feel guilt over the attack, in order to make him grow up a little and to give him a reason to start trusting AS more.

 

I don't blame any of the main characters (yes, I include Verin in that) about the attack any more, I really think that it's gonna be a RAFO, whether or not the attack on Camelyn will turn out to be a good thing.*

 

And there could be prophecy involved that we have not read yet to which Verin had access.

You know something along the lines of:

 

"Lo, as the Trickster sees flame on the City Within a City, It becomes known that the World will hear the Dragon's Roar"

 

BTW: do we know if "every" time the Dragon is mentioned in the Prophecies, that it refers only to LTT or Rand. Might not some of the lesser understood passages give reference to Aludra's toys?

 

 

* - By "good", I mean "helping the cause of the Light."

Edited by Ishadar
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I'm not entirely sure "blame" needs to be tossed around. In my opinion the letter given to Mat could not have been opened even if Mat had wanted to and Verin knew this.

Points for discussion:

1.) Verin was the DF not Mat, therefore the action of betrayal of the dark oaths had to come from Verin not Mat. Mat opening the letter isn't a betrayal of the oaths, the moment in which Verin wrote the letter to Mat was the betrayal.

2.) Due to the fact that Verin wrote the letter well before "the hour of her death", it would not be possible to open that letter until the information contained had already come to pass.

I disagree with that assessment. Verin wrote her notes years ago, for example - if the betrayal is the writing, then she could never have done that. No, she must keep the secrets until the hour of her death, but if she believes the secret to still be kept (Mat hasn't opened the letter, her notes are undeciphered) then she hasn't broken the Oath. The secret is still kept until the letter is opened, and as far as Verin knows that won't be for ten days. As we have seen in the past, the First Oath works on what the speaker thinks is the truth, not what is truth. The same applies here: if Verin thinks she is still keeping the secrets, she's fine even if Mat opened the letter the moment she left.

 

 

I think one important point is missed here. We all know the content of the letter.

 

Verin made Mat promise to follow the instructions... Not read it. Not act on it. Not any leeway whatsoever. It could be "Attack Seanchan now because of my dream" or "Move the band to location Y" for all he knows.

 

How anyone can possibly blame Mat for not opening the letter is beyond me.

He could have got someone else to open the letter or just opened it and not done what it said if he didn't agree with it.

 

Verin is to blame. It's very simple. If she had told him "This contains important information, but you must promise not to open it for 10 days", the whole situation would have been easily avoided.
Well, she did. So you blame Verin when she did exactly what you think she should have done?
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I'm not entirely sure "blame" needs to be tossed around. In my opinion the letter given to Mat could not have been opened even if Mat had wanted to and Verin knew this.

Points for discussion:

1.) Verin was the DF not Mat, therefore the action of betrayal of the dark oaths had to come from Verin not Mat. Mat opening the letter isn't a betrayal of the oaths, the moment in which Verin wrote the letter to Mat was the betrayal.

2.) Due to the fact that Verin wrote the letter well before "the hour of her death", it would not be possible to open that letter until the information contained had already come to pass.

I disagree with that assessment. Verin wrote her notes years ago, for example - if the betrayal is the writing, then she could never have done that. No, she must keep the secrets until the hour of her death, but if she believes the secret to still be kept (Mat hasn't opened the letter, her notes are undeciphered) then she hasn't broken the Oath. The secret is still kept until the letter is opened, and as far as Verin knows that won't be for ten days. As we have seen in the past, the First Oath works on what the speaker thinks is the truth, not what is truth. The same applies here: if Verin thinks she is still keeping the secrets, she's fine even if Mat opened the letter the moment she left.

 

 

I have to respectfully disagree with you. The betrayal is in writing with the intent to pass the writings on, otherwise no communication could be passed through writing between DFs. Verins letters were obviously written with the intent of passing the information on. The act of betrayal cannot be committed by one not sworn to the shadow and so Mat in no way, shape, or form can cause a breach of that oath.

I think its a little too easy to simply say that an aes sedai can lie if she simply believes the words said to be true, or a darkfriend can betray the DO by simply believing that they are not. (if you have passages in the books that show Aes Sedai can lie if they believe the lie please post them) As is, I believe that if this were the case, as aluded to in ToM, Mesanna could have sworn the 3 oaths and still sworn to not be a DF because she is not a DF.

 

I think to explain my position a tad better:

The condition of an oath is written onto the thread on the pattern of the individual who took the oath.

That oath is present on all future weavings of that individuals actions until the oath is removed.

Verin wrote the letter while affected by that oath with information on the plans of the shadow for the future, and gave it to someone not turned to the shadow. (you argue that Verin could not write the letter if intending to pass sensitive info along, while I argue that the letter could not be read until the information was no longer sensitive)

The oath falls off the letter once its contents are no longer secret due to the shadow already bringing to pass its contents.

We see olver open the letter, by chance, but only after the invasion has begun.

 

But plz Mr. Ares, could you provide instances in which simple belief is enough to let an Aes Sedai break the first oath.

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But plz Mr. Ares, could you provide instances in which simple belief is enough to let an Aes Sedai break the first oath.

 

I can. When the BA Hunters try to make one of the ferrets recant the Reds helping Logain, and it almost kills her. Logain was not helped by Reds, but the ferret believed it.

 

Sorry, I don't have the book at hand to provide quote or correct names, but I'm pretty sure the BA Hunter was Pevara. That's the first example to come to mind, and probably the best, since conflicting oaths nearly kill her.

The Hunters go on to talk about that Pevara considers it a lie, and the other hunter says something to the effect of "But she believes it, Pevara, she believes it." And Pevara tells her she doesnot have to tell a lie and the ferret almost collapses from relief and catches her breath.

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But plz Mr. Ares, could you provide instances in which simple belief is enough to let an Aes Sedai break the first oath.

 

I can. When the BA Hunters try to make one of the ferrets recant the Reds helping Logain, and it almost kills her. Logain was not helped by Reds, but the ferret believed it.

 

Sorry, I don't have the book at hand to provide quote or correct names, but I'm pretty sure the BA Hunter was Pevara. That's the first example to come to mind, and probably the best, since conflicting oaths nearly kill her.

The Hunters go on to talk about that Pevara considers it a lie, and the other hunter says something to the effect of "But she believes it, Pevara, she believes it." And Pevara tells her she doesnot have to tell a lie and the ferret almost collapses from relief and catches her breath.

 

 

Did she break the first oath in this scenerio?

 

Edit: I think I remember this scene. I am under the impression that the fear we see from the ferret is due to being sworn by oath to answer the hunters, and the hunters are asking her to tell what she thinks is a lie (she doesn't want to speak it because she doesn't want to die) This does not mean that because she thinks its a lie, that it is however. This example really doesn't show that the oaths can be skirted by belief.

Edited by Mystraka
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I think one important point is missed here. We all know the content of the letter.

 

Verin made Mat promise to follow the instructions... Not read it. Not act on it. Not any leeway whatsoever. It could be "Attack Seanchan now because of my dream" or "Move the band to location Y" for all he knows.

 

How anyone can possibly blame Mat for not opening the letter is beyond me.

He could have got someone else to open the letter or just opened it and not done what it said if he didn't agree with it.

 

 

Didn't Mat address this possibility when the barmaid had the letter in her hands? I think he said he would feel obligated to follow the terms of his agreement even if someone else did the opening.

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Did she break the first oath in this scenerio?

 

No, because she couldn't. The Ferret (since I can't remember the name) had been given the 4th oath to Obey Pevara and the other Hunters and reswore the original 3 then said she was not a darkfriend. Then they ask about seeds found on her saddle cloth, and it comes out that she had been sent back to the Tower by the SAS to "spread the truth about the Reds setting up Logain." Pevara goes ballistic, something about "So, you are responsible for those horrible lies. Take it back, admit the lie, girl. Admit it the stories of Logain and Reds are lies!" then the Ferret starts choking and can't say anything, can't even breathe, and the Original BA Hunter, the white I think, tells her to stop that since the Ferret believes it she cannot renounce it because that would violate the First Oath, so the Ferret had been stuck between conflicting oaths 1. to tell the truth 2 to do as she was commanded by Pevara. She couldn't do both.

 

I'll find it in my book and PM the quote to you. It is very specific in it's wording that the White sister is certain that it is because of her belief in the lie that causes the conflict.

Edited by Ishadar
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Did she break the first oath in this scenerio?

 

No, because she couldn't. The Ferret (since I can't remember the name) had been given the 4th oath to Obey Pevara and the other Hunters and reswore the original 3 then said she was not a darkfriend. Then they ask about seeds found on her saddle cloth, and it comes out that she had been sent back to the Tower by the SAS to "spread the truth about the Reds setting up Logain." Pevara goes ballistic, something about "So, you are responsible for those horrible lies. Take it back, admit the lie, girl. Admit it the stories of Logain and Reds are lies!" then the Ferret starts choking and can't say anything, can't even breathe, and the Original BA Hunter, the white I think, tells her to stop that since the Ferret believes it she cannot renounce it because that would violate the First Oath, so the Ferret had been stuck between conflicting oaths 1. to tell the truth 2 to do as she was commanded by Pevara. She couldn't do both.

 

I'll find it in my book and PM the quote to you. It is very specific in it's wording that the White sister is certain that it is because of her belief in the lie that causes the conflict.

 

I'm not sure it was that she couldn't, it that she was scared to for fear of death. But ya pm me the quote kind sir/ma'am

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I think one important point is missed here. We all know the content of the letter.

 

Verin made Mat promise to follow the instructions... Not read it. Not act on it. Not any leeway whatsoever. It could be "Attack Seanchan now because of my dream" or "Move the band to location Y" for all he knows.

 

How anyone can possibly blame Mat for not opening the letter is beyond me.

He could have got someone else to open the letter or just opened it and not done what it said if he didn't agree with it.

 

No he couldn't have had someone else open the letter. He already stated to the bartender in Caemlyn that if she opened the letter it would be the same as if he opened it and he would have to do whatever it is says. This still leaves the fact that he could just not do what was on it, but Mat has made it clear over and over again that he keeps his word. Disputing this is to dispute the character that he is.

 

Verin is to blame. It's very simple. If she had told him "This contains important information, but you must promise not to open it for 10 days", the whole situation would have been easily avoided.

Well, she did. So you blame Verin when she did exactly what you think she should have done?

 

1. I believe what "Mystraka" meant was that Verin could have told him "This contains important information, but you must promise not to open it for 10 days" and leave out the part about him having to do what was on the letter. If she had done that she would have been within the bounds of her oath and then Mat could have warned Elayne or any number of things to prevent the attack. There was no real reason for Verin to make him promise to do what was on the letter except for the fact that she didn't know whether Mat would take the time to warn anyone or not, or she just thought that the city would need the help of the band to survive. Both of these are possible, but if she had known Mat as well as she thought she did then she would have known that he would never leave people to die defenseless(Examples: taking the AS from Ebou Dar, going to get moiraine, fighting the Seanchan so that Tuon would have time to get away). At the very least he would have warned Elayne.

 

2. Verin never tells him that what's in the letter is important. I don't have the book with me right now, but the conversation is quoted at http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/02/verin-and-her-letters.html and according to that conversation, Verin never says that it's important. She does mention "I doubt you'll find my instructions harsh, Matrim", but I think everyone will admit that that is about as obscure a statement as they come. She could mean anything by "doubt" and "harsh", those words leave large loopholes.

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I also put the blame squarely on Rand's shoulders. The Waygates that are known to be INSIDE the major cities (not Tear, since it's Waygate is on the Plains of Maredo) should have been LOCKED, not warded, not guarded, not watched. LOCKED! Just like Loial did to the Manetherin waygate.

I'm pretty sure he did do this. However Loial did say that an Aes Sedai could open one, as we saw Moraine do outside of Fal Dara. So the Forsaken could have easily got around.

 

The better objection would be to say that Rand should have warded them like he did for the waygate in Shadar Logoth, but again one of the Forsaken could have defeated that if they were looking for it.

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