Discuss The Full Book

[smileyman]

 

I think it's referring to Rand, but remember the prophecies aren't always of what must be. I think that the wolves gathering gives an indication of this--had Rand not turned away from the darkness he would have become the Broken Champion, but he mastered that test and became whole.

 

Hm. I find it odd that they'd use 2 names for the same person in the same prophecy. Not impossible, but odd. As for whether or not he's the Broken Champion, well, nobody said he's going to STAY whole. Still, though, I can't help but feel the "broken champion" and the "first among vermin" are different.

 

I also wonder if the genders aren't all that important in this prophecy... First Among Vermin could refer to leader of the Aes Sedai perhaps?

 

Doubt it. There are very specific clues, even discounting the gender. First it's "lifts his hand", singular. Rand only has one hand. It refers to him bring freedom to "Him Who Will Destroy" which is pretty clearly the DO. That's not something that the Aes Sedai are wanting to do. Rand's the one wanting to break the seals which will set the DO free.

 

 

There's a certain kind of pride that comes from refusing to do what you know is right for selfish reasons. Perrin's been exhibiting that pride throughout the series, refusing to be acknowledged as leader of the Two Rivers and the associated refugees, as well as refusing to full acknowledge the wolf side of himself. That pride definitely fell when he forged a Weapon of Power and became fully the Thor archetype.

 

I'm not sure I buy that, only because it sounds more ominous. Could be, though.

yeah, to be honest I'm not really sold on that theory either.

 

 

I don't think it's Lan. The Glossary very specifically identifies the Towers of Midnight as being 13 Towers in Seanchan where legend has it that the royal family will retreat to in a time of emergency and 'right that which was wronged'. Well we know of someone who has ties to the royal family with his marriage. He's definitely known death, having been hanged as well having memories of lifetimes of wars. He's also an Odin archetype, which is very interesting. Everybody knows about the ravens, but Odin has also been associated with wolves, specifically two wolves named Geri and Freki. He's definitely broken right now, what with having given up an eye.

 

It could also refer to Perrin or Elyas even, but I don't think so, not with the Seanchan connection.

We don't know that the ToM are the same as the "Midnight Towers." I don't see why they'd have a prophecy dealing with Seanchan when RJ had no intention of going to Seanchan. Plus, I'm fairly certain Mat wouldn't go back to Seanchan with the LB to fight. The Odin thing is interesting, but tenuous, only because he's never been referred to as a wolf before.

 

You're right, we don't know for sure but I think it's too strong of a coincidence, especially given Mat's connection to the Seanchan and his Odin archetype.

 

The biggest problem I have is that the One-Eyed Fool is definitely Mat, but the Broken Wolf is referenced in a way that makes it seem a different person. If the One-Eyed Fool walking the halls of mourning is a marker of when the Broken Wolf will fall, why wouldn't they be called the same? And if the Fallen Blacksmith is Perrin, why refer to him as the Broken Wolf (plus, he's not broken any more). Eck!

 

You could argue that Mat really is different people. He's himself and he's got memories of other men--and they're not memories of his own past lives. They're memories that the Aelfinn and Eelfinn gave him.

 

 

But I still think it's Lan; he's the only one I can think of that's important enough that his death would bring sorrow that isn't Rand (yes, perhaps I'm going too literal still). Honestly, Mat isn't really well known enough to affect the hearts of men (except the BOTRH) and Perrin is only known by his small army.

 

So for now I stick with Lan. Unless Rand goes to save him... which he might:

 

Mat's becoming very well known--I think there's a reason there were all those instances of Mat being recognized by his face and the whole repetition of the stories that are going around about him. I just can't see it being Lan simply because Lan's sigil has been a crane. He's never been associated with a wolf, other than a comparison to danger which is a comparison that's applied to all the Warders. Why would he suddenly become the Broken Wolf?

 

Maybe it's someone we don't know yet? Perrin faintly senses Hopper at the end of the book--maybe the Broken Wolf is him?

 

 

 

Two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs"

Lan and Rand make a last stand? That'd be my favorite scene ever if it happened. Too bad it's probably some other people.

 

That would indeed be extremely cool, but it's probably a pair of Asha'man.

[Sharaman]

In regards to the prophecies of the shadow..I think mainly it boils down to who's prophecies will be fulfilled and who's won't be. So in order for the PoS to be fufilled perrin must die..but if he doessnnnttt than perhaps the PoD will be fulfilled without that. Beacuse in one the Dragon prevails and the shadow is banished and in the other the shadow prevails and all the world is basically screwed! Pretty sure I worded some of this wrong..but hopefully you guys catch my drift. :)

 

Perrin is not stated to die in the Shadow Prophecies (at least, not the ones at the end of the book). Assuming the prophecy at the end is the same that Graendal and Moridin look at, then the Broken Wolf will die, while the Fallen Blacksmith will only lose his pride... whatever that is.

 

"One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning" -- Mat, but mourning what? He's still close to Caemlyn, so maybe it has something to do with that. The gateway opens and they come through and find the city sacked?

 

"First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy" -- when Rand breaks the seals... but the problem with this is that Rand is later named the Broken Champion.... isn't he? Unless that could be Moridin? Or maybe one of them is Fain?

 

"the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come." -- Perrin. Faile dying? What would his "pride" be? Literally his pride, or...?

 

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall being fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself." -- This has to be Lan. I can't think of anyone else who would "know" death and whose death would bring fear and sorrow to people.

 

thoughts?

 

i already said, the broken wolf is jain farstrider, and he died in the midnight towers already

 

That's only if you assume the "Midnight Towers" refers to the tower of Ghenjei. It makes more sense that it refers to the Forsaken, considering Egwene's dream. That said, if it refers to the Tower of Ghenjei, then yeah, Jain is the obvious one, although I don't get why he'd be a "wolf". The rest could fit since Ishamael broke him (essentially) and since he appears to have "fallen".

 

my thoughts: Towers of Midnight means the Forsaken (though literally, they're the towers in Seanchan) b/c of Eggy's dream. 13 Forsaken, half fallen (dead) one broken then rising higher than the rest (Ishmael dies, then becomes Nae'blis (sp?)) It seams to me that the key is that these prophesies are not "what will happen", rather, they are "what needs to happen for the Dark to win." That explains, to me at least, why Ishy wants Perrin dead so badly, bc his death is a key part of this Dark prophesy.

If you allow for a misuse/ mistranslation, "pride" could refer to the wolf pack that died for the Fallen Blacksmith. That's usually the collective noun for lions though.

[smileyman]

If you allow for a misuse/ mistranslation, "pride" could refer to the wolf pack that died for the Fallen Blacksmith. That's usually the collective noun for lions though.

 

Yeah I thought of that too and then discarded it for the reason you mentioned.

[MattTaz]

2. Who were the red-veiled "Aiel" at the epilogue?

 

Simple, they're not Aiel. Their Sharamen. Their sharpened teeth are clearly mentioned in The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. There is an entire, albeit brief, section dedicated to Shara, which IMO, wouldn't be there just as a filler. RJ meant to have Shara remain shrouded behind a veil of mystery, until the time was right to bring it to good use. This is it. The red-veiled attackers are Sharamen, plain and simple.

 

3. Who's Demandred?

 

The leader of the Sharamen. That's why his "rule has been secure" for so long. He will be revealed as the general behind the red-veiled warriors, probably in the prologue or opening chapters of AMOL. Count on it.

 

It is likely, just to throw something out there, Graendel up until LoC had contacts there, and she doesn't know what Demandred was up to.

Sammael thought Demandred was up to something in the South. Land of Madmen?

 

On another topic, Moridin in TPOD was a bit freaked out that Avi could unravel Webs for Gateways. Is the Bore a Gateway?

[AcuWill]

2. Who were the red-veiled "Aiel" at the epilogue?

 

Simple, they're not Aiel. Their Sharamen. Their sharpened teeth are clearly mentioned in The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. There is an entire, albeit brief, section dedicated to Shara, which IMO, wouldn't be there just as a filler. RJ meant to have Shara remain shrouded behind a veil of mystery, until the time was right to bring it to good use. This is it. The red-veiled attackers are Sharamen, plain and simple.

 

3. Who's Demandred?

 

The leader of the Sharamen. That's why his "rule has been secure" for so long. He will be revealed as the general behind the red-veiled warriors, probably in the prologue or opening chapters of AMOL. Count on it.

 

It is likely, just to throw something out there, Graendel up until LoC had contacts there, and she doesn't know what Demandred was up to.

Sammael thought Demandred was up to something in the South. Land of Madmen?

 

On another topic, Moridin in TPOD was a bit freaked out that Avi could unravel Webs for Gateways. Is the Bore a Gateway?

Very very interesting thought. +1

[Sharaman]

One nice thing is that all the main timelines now are pretty much integrated with reference to each other.

If we use VoG as a placement, we know where everybody is, at what time, with reference to VoG.

One doubtful element is the Heeth Tower Attack but that can also be placed by the assumption that it happened around the same time as the Maradon attack - we know when Rand arrived in Maradon.

Another doubtful element is the Avi timeline though we know when she left for the Waste.

That makes continuity a lot easier.

[nolirion]

In regards to the prophecies of the shadow..I think mainly it boils down to who's prophecies will be fulfilled and who's won't be. So in order for the PoS to be fufilled perrin must die..but if he doessnnnttt than perhaps the PoD will be fulfilled without that. Beacuse in one the Dragon prevails and the shadow is banished and in the other the shadow prevails and all the world is basically screwed! Pretty sure I worded some of this wrong..but hopefully you guys catch my drift. :)

 

Perrin is not stated to die in the Shadow Prophecies (at least, not the ones at the end of the book). Assuming the prophecy at the end is the same that Graendal and Moridin look at, then the Broken Wolf will die, while the Fallen Blacksmith will only lose his pride... whatever that is.

 

"One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning" -- Mat, but mourning what? He's still close to Caemlyn, so maybe it has something to do with that. The gateway opens and they come through and find the city sacked?

 

"First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy" -- when Rand breaks the seals... but the problem with this is that Rand is later named the Broken Champion.... isn't he? Unless that could be Moridin? Or maybe one of them is Fain?

 

"the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come." -- Perrin. Faile dying? What would his "pride" be? Literally his pride, or...?

 

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall being fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself." -- This has to be Lan. I can't think of anyone else who would "know" death and whose death would bring fear and sorrow to people.

 

thoughts?

 

i already said, the broken wolf is jain farstrider, and he died in the midnight towers already

 

That's only if you assume the "Midnight Towers" refers to the tower of Ghenjei. It makes more sense that it refers to the Forsaken, considering Egwene's dream. That said, if it refers to the Tower of Ghenjei, then yeah, Jain is the obvious one, although I don't get why he'd be a "wolf". The rest could fit since Ishamael broke him (essentially) and since he appears to have "fallen".

In the end of the glossary their is something about the Tower of midnight thing , did everyone miss it or do i just give it to much importance ?

Myself i am much more open to a Ituralde fight with the seanchan that something to do with Perrin

[GusE]

I think Broken Wolf = Rodel Ituralde.

CoT Prologue, PoV Ituralde: "They would gather their armies and ride when orders came from the Wolf [...] They knew the Wolf won battles."

[nolirion]

I think Broken Wolf = Rodel Ituralde.

CoT Prologue, PoV Ituralde: "They would gather their armies and ride when orders came from the Wolf [...] They knew the Wolf won battles."

That what i was looking for , make much more sense to me .

[GusE]

BTW, I had really been hoping for some DEMANDRED in ToM. Theres was just Moridin with his 2 puppets, Graendal, Mesaana and him left. What in the world is he up to?

[Sharaman]

BTW, I had really been hoping for some DEMANDRED in ToM. Theres was just Moridin with his 2 puppets, Graendal, Mesaana and him left. What in the world is he up to?

Demandred's working through his proxies Arivine and Dyelin.

[Barid Bel Medar]

BTW, I had really been hoping for some DEMANDRED in ToM. Theres was just Moridin with his 2 puppets, Graendal, Mesaana and him left. What in the world is he up to?

Demandred's working through his proxies Arivine and Dyelin.

 

woooo, Demandred. As you may have guessed, he is my favorite shadow character, and behind the three taveren and Nyneave for all characters. I have no idea what he is up to (best guess is Murandy, but Im not really convinced) but it is safe to say that whatever he is up to it is going to be big. I am not saying big as in big reveal. As we have seen with Asmodean killer and Mesaana identity, DM and other fansites have anylized every single word so no reveal will live up to the expectations. Im talking about effects on the world. Brandon has said that Demandred is the Shadow's main player. Now, some say it is moridin, but I think they are two different things. I am thinking that Brandon was talking about the WAR. Demandred will be the one that will be leading armies and killing/destroying cities. Moridin on the other hand, just like Rand, will be playing the "greater" game. They wont be taking part in the "war", it will be more 1v1 psychological kinda thing.

 

Anyway, the point is, I am hoping that all the secrecy is worth it. I want Demandred to actually "win" in a way. It would be gay if there was this whole build up since Lord of Chaos as to what he is doing, and then in AMoL he is revealed, and killed by doing something stupid.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I think he is in murandy. Isn't that the only ruler not going to be at Rands little get together. Dylin as one of his proxys is a fun thought. What would be the plan there, what with Caemlyn being attacked and all?

[chostett]

I'd like your opinions about Olver's POV. I've read most of this thread and seen some references to Olver -- winning the game at last, taking up the sword to fight in Caemlyn. But what has really bothered me was his tone of voice in his thoughts. I understand that he wants to avenge his father's death, and that he wants (and thinks he deserves) Mat's help in doing so. Here's what I mean about his tone:

 

"But next time, Olver would do the choosing. And then Mat had better be nice, or he would be left behind."

"[Talmanes] was an all-right fellow, though a little stiff. Olver would not choose to have a man like him on a good night of drinking and hunting serving girls. As soon as Olver was old enough to go drinking and hunting serving girls. He figured he would be ready in another year or so."

 

I can't decide if this is supposed to be how boys his age think, or a sign that he's not a very nice person. I'm a 56-year-old woman, so maybe I'm just out of touch. But he sounds mean to me. I've always thought of him kindly, and as possibly Gaidal (and therefor heroic). I don't think he sounds like a DF, but he just seems mean. Maybe that's how a kid would sound if he witnessed the brutality Olver has witnessed, and then hero-worshipped Mat but didn't get much attention from him. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

[tlongman]

I think he is in murandy. Isn't that the only ruler not going to be at Rands little get together. Dylin as one of his proxys is a fun thought. What would be the plan there, what with Caemlyn being attacked and all?

 

Agree he is in Murandy. The point would be to open up a second front behind Rand's army - which is also why the trollocs are sent to Caemlyn. Pretty much the forces of light have issues - they are surrounded, still somewhat divided, have a lot of their male channelers being turned (it seems) and the Seanchan are about to attack.

 

But man I am looking forward to the next book - with them all back together in the same place you can almost have one single plot arc (with different POVs) so a ton can happen.

 

Here are my random crazy predictions for the next book:

 

Rand teaches the Aiel "the song" giving them a new purpose for after the last battle (he should know it)

The Seanchan will attack the White Tower but will be stopped after Matt blows the Horn of Valere and Artur Hawkwing talks some sense in to Tuon.

The Lanfear thing is a trap

[Bob T Dwarf]

Remember in the Autherian Legends an old Lancelot kills a younger Gwain even though Gwain had the magic belt.

 

In the Arturian Legend, Arthur was the supreme swordsman. Nobody could beat him. Until he met Lancelot.

 

Now Lancelot did not have an easy time beating him, but he did get it done - and without killing Arthur.

 

Rand = Arthur. ( Actually it's likely that Rand + Galad = Arthur )

Gawyn = Gawain.

Lan = Lancelot.

 

Sticking with the Arthurian parallels, Lan defeats all comers.

[ColeOfCentauri]

I am very upset :-(

 

I privately only had THREE little wishes for this book and I have been told by sources that I trust that NONE of the three occur in this book.

 

I am crushed.

 

Avoid reading further if you want to avoid seeing me expand on these three things:

 

****************

 

****************

 

 

****************

 

****************

 

I thought my yearnings were not too much to ask for. I didn't have to have Asmo's killer revealed or some long-prophecied battle happen. My three wishes were small things and I can't believe NONE of the three occur in TOM -

 

My Three Wishes Were:

 

 

1 Mesaana's Tower Identity Revealed.

 

2 Demandred's Identity/What He's Been Up To Revealed.

 

3 Not so much Moiraine Demandred's TOG Rescue Itself...But Rand Meeting Her Again.

 

 

Please...someome tell me...in the name of all that is Team Jordan, HOW could NONE of these things be in TOM???:--(((

 

 

- Fish

My understanding is that you haven't yet read the book, but wanted spoilers anyway to decide whether it was good to read or not. I think you should read it; it's a great book. So, I won't give the details, but one of your three things DOES happen.

[ColeOfCentauri]

Remember in the Autherian Legends an old Lancelot kills a younger Gwain even though Gwain had the magic belt.

 

In the Arturian Legend, Arthur was the supreme swordsman. Nobody could beat him. Until he met Lancelot.

 

Now Lancelot did not have an easy time beating him, but he did get it done - and without killing Arthur.

 

Rand = Arthur. ( Actually it's likely that Rand + Galad = Arthur )

Gawyn = Gawain.

Lan = Lancelot.

 

Sticking with the Arthurian parallels, Lan defeats all comers.

 

Also, Galad* = Galahad

Merrilin = Merlin

Egwene al'Vere = Guenevere

 

*Yeah, and also a popular Elvish word from LOTR, as I guess he looks Elvish

[vicegod]

First off, to answer people's questions about how Asmodean's killer was discovered (if not yet mentioned) was in the Epilogue. Graendal was blamed for the lives of THREE Forsaken. We know Aran' Gar because she abandoned her in Natrins Barrows when when Rand balefired the heck out of it. Graendal is responsible for Mesaana's... current state (dont want to say death just yet) because she was 'in charge' of Slayer with the dream spike. And the third? Well, that was our hint. ;)

 

 

Okay, haven't seen this posted yet, but I believe I found where Graendal admits(circumspectly) to being Asmodean's killer. I didn't see it until after I finished the book and saw so many people complaining that it says it outright in the glossary and that the scene in the epilogue isn't definitive. I picked up my copy of ToM and began a scan re-read looking for scenes i wanted to read more closely. Then I came upon this in Ch. 5 Writings between Moridin and Graendal:

 

"'Aran'gar is dead, lost to us-and after the Great Lord transmigrated her soul the last time. One might think you are making a habit of this sort of thing, Graendal.'

'I live to serve, Nae'blis,' she said. Confidence! She had to seem confident.

He hesitated just briefly. Good. 'Surely you do not imply that Aran'gar had turned traitor.'

'What?' Graendal said. 'No of course not.'

'Then how is what you did a service?'" [Emphasis mine]

 

 

What is she making a habit of? Killing other Forsaken.

Who else has she killed? Not Sammael, she would have protested being at fault for that as well as Mesanna, but she seems to accept being directly responsible for two deaths in the epilogue, therefore it is Asmodean.

Why does it have to be Asmodean? Her excuse was that she lived to serve and Moridin equated that servitude to her taking out a traitor. Only one Chosen has been deemed traitor.

 

Some might think this passage too obtuse, but I imagine there will be some clue along the way that we missed and I think this is about as obvious as you can get (without looking in the glossary. What other way would have satisfied? Having a Graendal POV where she thought, "oh this reminds me of the time that I killed Asmodean"? I think that this passage shows textual evidence, without being too easy.

 

Anyone disagree?

[GusE]

I agree, the quote from Chapter 5, especially with the "Surely you do not imply that Aran'gar had turned traitor" bit, implying that was her excuse last time she killed another of the forsaken (which is becoming a habit).

[Danvighar]

Personally, I loved how Graendal (I think - perhaps I'm thinking of Mesaana, the braided PoVs make it hard to look up and be sure) thought to herself that she would have loved to put an a'dam around Semirhage's neck, too bad Semirhage got killed first. Another nod to the way each of them is out for themselves. Selfishness must rule, again.

[Goramier]

I'd like your opinions about Olver's POV. I've read most of this thread and seen some references to Olver -- winning the game at last, taking up the sword to fight in Caemlyn. But what has really bothered me was his tone of voice in his thoughts. I understand that he wants to avenge his father's death, and that he wants (and thinks he deserves) Mat's help in doing so. Here's what I mean about his tone:

 

"But next time, Olver would do the choosing. And then Mat had better be nice, or he would be left behind."

"[Talmanes] was an all-right fellow, though a little stiff. Olver would not choose to have a man like him on a good night of drinking and hunting serving girls. As soon as Olver was old enough to go drinking and hunting serving girls. He figured he would be ready in another year or so."

 

I can't decide if this is supposed to be how boys his age think, or a sign that he's not a very nice person. I'm a 56-year-old woman, so maybe I'm just out of touch. But he sounds mean to me. I've always thought of him kindly, and as possibly Gaidal (and therefor heroic). I don't think he sounds like a DF, but he just seems mean. Maybe that's how a kid would sound if he witnessed the brutality Olver has witnessed, and then hero-worshipped Mat but didn't get much attention from him. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

 

I have posted a bit on Olver elsewhere but will continue with this post. I noticed alot of people thought his POV was creepy or weird. It could be that my feelings on it are off then because I didn't find it weird or creepy at all, far from it. I read it, that you could either feel really sorry for him (because revenge has taken over his life/thinking) or feel proud.

 

His POV shows us a boy who is clearly much smarter then Mat ever gave him credit for. He plays the snake/fox game alot, not because he is just some kid playing a game, but as it turns out there is meaning there. And the kid did beat it, after all. He also offered clues to Mat to get him insidethe tower.

 

The other side is his backstory. He is just a small boy who watches his father get killed and is then an orphan who ends up being raised by military dudes. Think about how that would effect anyones life. Being raised by people who's life is about killing, gambling, drinking and womanizing.

 

Basically we see Olver is becoming a man and this young man has clearly defined goals. He is going to learn how to be a great fighter and then he is going to visit the snakes and foxes. He is doing both to go avenge his fathers death. As I said, we realize that he is very smart and even thinks about it as if he is the one caring for Mat, not the other way around.

 

In the end, it comes down to this IMO. He is a character who can go any which way and the story would make sense. If he becomes some hero even by doing some small part in the next book, it would make sense. If he turned to the dark side and has some storyline that way, it would make sense. If he simply leaves the story, says fairwell or not to Mat, Talmanes and or Setelle and then just goes off to do his own thing, it would make sense. He if decides to go to the tower himself and leaves, it would make sense. Basically his story line is set up so Olver could go anywhere at this point. He may even be basically left out of the last book. I think it will be interesting to see what, if any, role he has yet to play. Who knows.

[chostett]

I'd like your opinions about Olver's POV. I've read most of this thread and seen some references to Olver -- winning the game at last, taking up the sword to fight in Caemlyn. But what has really bothered me was his tone of voice in his thoughts. I understand that he wants to avenge his father's death, and that he wants (and thinks he deserves) Mat's help in doing so. Here's what I mean about his tone:

 

"But next time, Olver would do the choosing. And then Mat had better be nice, or he would be left behind."

"[Talmanes] was an all-right fellow, though a little stiff. Olver would not choose to have a man like him on a good night of drinking and hunting serving girls. As soon as Olver was old enough to go drinking and hunting serving girls. He figured he would be ready in another year or so."

 

I can't decide if this is supposed to be how boys his age think, or a sign that he's not a very nice person. I'm a 56-year-old woman, so maybe I'm just out of touch. But he sounds mean to me. I've always thought of him kindly, and as possibly Gaidal (and therefor heroic). I don't think he sounds like a DF, but he just seems mean. Maybe that's how a kid would sound if he witnessed the brutality Olver has witnessed, and then hero-worshipped Mat but didn't get much attention from him. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

 

I have posted a bit on Olver elsewhere but will continue with this post. I noticed alot of people thought his POV was creepy or weird. It could be that my feelings on it are off then because I didn't find it weird or creepy at all, far from it. I read it, that you could either feel really sorry for him (because revenge has taken over his life/thinking) or feel proud.

 

His POV shows us a boy who is clearly much smarter then Mat ever gave him credit for. He plays the snake/fox game alot, not because he is just some kid playing a game, but as it turns out there is meaning there. And the kid did beat it, after all. He also offered clues to Mat to get him insidethe tower.

 

The other side is his backstory. He is just a small boy who watches his father get killed and is then an orphan who ends up being raised by military dudes. Think about how that would effect anyones life. Being raised by people who's life is about killing, gambling, drinking and womanizing.

 

Basically we see Olver is becoming a man and this young man has clearly defined goals. He is going to learn how to be a great fighter and then he is going to visit the snakes and foxes. He is doing both to go avenge his fathers death. As I said, we realize that he is very smart and even thinks about it as if he is the one caring for Mat, not the other way around.

 

In the end, it comes down to this IMO. He is a character who can go any which way and the story would make sense. If he becomes some hero even by doing some small part in the next book, it would make sense. If he turned to the dark side and has some storyline that way, it would make sense. If he simply leaves the story, says fairwell or not to Mat, Talmanes and or Setelle and then just goes off to do his own thing, it would make sense. He if decides to go to the tower himself and leaves, it would make sense. Basically his story line is set up so Olver could go anywhere at this point. He may even be basically left out of the last book. I think it will be interesting to see what, if any, role he has yet to play. Who knows.

 

Thanks so much. I think you've talked me down from a ledge.

[Elan Tedronai]

I just finished the book and i must say what a disappointing book this has turned out to be. After the brilliant TGS, this book falls into path of daggers territory.

 

The book starts of with lan riding to his apparent death. with all due respect to al lan mandrogoran, i do not care one whit about lan. His death makes no difference to the grand scheme of things. What's worse is his apparent distaste with people following him and yet marching on regardless. His whole mantra of being a king without land is just tiresome and wasteful. Then we got some borderlander perspective and trollocs overunning his tower. Something that could have been in the final book. Instead they waste pages on this.

 

Now let's get to the meat of the story. Perrin. Perrin who was once one of fave characters has turned out to be one of th biggest waste of space ever. The constant dont want to be king, then fighting his wolf side is so 1997. yes 1997. how long is this useless arc going to be continued? oh i must not give in, oh i dont want to be a leader blah blah. Sheesh the whole book was wasted on him. This was something that should have been resolved back 10 friggin years ago.

 

Rand and egwene. Having got through remarkable transformations in TGS and being the stars of that book, here their plot meanders to meaningless. Calm jedi rand goes on to apologising to everyone which is nice. But the story remains stuck in second gear. No plot advancement. Ditto egwene apart from being bullheaded. what a waste.

 

Now on to the forsaken. just as i predicted the forsaken came out as cropper. the dark one and his minions are simply useless. just useless. where the fuck is demandred by the way? the forsaken has became an enemy to be pitied and not feared.

 

The black tower arc. 2 books and still no plot advancement. We know what's going in the tower. And yet nothing seems to be happening apart from taim and his baddies recruiting for the dark one. The turning of tarna is the only thing in this book that made me pause. And while she was a cool red her turning would'nt accomplish much in the grand scheme of things. Which begs the question where is logain? The black tower arc has just been relegated to meaningless side plots by sanderson.

 

 

Moraine's rescue. The only plot advancement and long overdue in my opinion.

 

Final words, a poor book with so many words and yet accomplished very little when it has come to the story apart from certain characters meeting up after ages. No epic endings or climactic battles that drove the story forward. The shadow still inept and clueless and forsaken still useless.

The book should have ended with rand breaking the seals. Instead i fear tarmon gaidon is going to end up as simply a larger version of Dumai wells. Another book and not one single light character has bit the dust. Not one that mattered anyway.

 

 

One more book and i get the feeling it's going to end in an anticlimactic fashion

[Palarran]

But even if it wasn't, Rand doesn't give a hoot about resealing the Bore. He means to kill the Dark One. When you have vermin in your house, you don't take them outside. You exterminate them, lest you want the plague back. Makes perfect sense.

 

I strongly disagree. A primary theme of this series is balance: Male/female, good/evil, Creator/DO. Take away the balance, either way, and things go badly. Rand wants to restore the balance that existed before the bore was drilled, with neither the Creator or the DO having direct influence on the world. There has been no indication from the text that he desires to kill, remove, or in any way destroy the DO. If he did, he certainly wouldn't have destroyed the CK. Even with the CK I don't think it would have been possible.