Discuss The Full Book

[Mr Ares]

OK i am also look to actually discuss the book with people that actually read it. Like whats going on with the Black tower? Is Taim one of the forsaken? it seems likely that a forsaken killed him and took his place when he was hiding from the AS. Plus he has a dream spike that was given to him by Ishmael/Moridin so he is either a very high darkfriend, forsaken or Moridin himself which knowing Ishmaels past my be likely. Also the character in the black tower fighting against him cant remember his name right now. THe one who is talented with gateways, he is hinted at being important but why is ASMO not dead is this him still blocked and weak with risidule taint left over from his time with rand before he cleansed the source he seems to know more than he lets on, maybe he has a block still in place from lanfear since it appears she is still alive just in another body at the end of the book. Also i did not see the towers of midnight actually discussed or hinted at or maybe i read to fast i am going to read again but the only metion i saw was the glossary where it said where and what they are so not sure of what their importance would be? And whats going on in Seanchan it has to be a powerful place and we have heard mention that it has a blight of its own for all we know shadowspawn could be massed there now. Also all these letters that appear to be left be Vernin show up Rand has one and Galad and i lose track of who else but they open up so many questions and answer so little. I am sure they relate to the dark prophecy and i think Galads letter may have something to do with the part of Perrins dark prophecy we saw at the end of the book and maybe a way to prevent it. Will Aveindha get back to Rand in time to get him to include the Aiel in the meeting to prevent the future. Is that future set because i do not really like it being in the book at all kind of ruins the last battle for me less worried about it now. Please people comment back thee are just most my thoughts still have others.

It is very doubtful Taim is one of the Chosen. Firstly, the only one he could be is Moridin, and Moridin appears to be busy elsewhere. Also, the orders in WH to the renegade Asha'man: Demandred orders them to kill Rand, Taim orders them to kill Rand, Moridin says they can kill Rand if they have to, but they have to bring back everything in his possession. So, either Moridin is purposely trying to confuse his underlings with contradictory orders or he and Taim are different people. He might be a high ranking Darkfriend, a newly raised Chosen, but he is almost certainly Taim, not anyone posing as Taim. As for the guy in the BT, he would appear to simply be a Dedicated with a Talent for Gateways. He is certainly not Asmo, as Asmo is most definitely dead. We already knew Lanfear had a new body - Cyndane. As for the Seanchan Blight, supposedly all the Shadowspawn there were wiped out (save a few Draghkar). It is doubtful the Shadow would launch a full scale invasion there - it would make more sense to fuel a multi-sided civil war, or put a Darkfriend on the Crystal Throne and have them keep the Empire out of the war.

 

Woah hold it just saw something in Chapter 49

 

The other four looked at her. She was of lineage of the Dragon, one of the last living. The other three lines had been killed off.

 

Emphasis mine. Maybe I'm interpreting this wrong, but there should only be three lines: Children birthed by Avi, children birthed by Elayne, and children birthed by Min. Or is this referring to the lineage coming from Avi's quadruplets, ignoring those from Elayne and Min? And if not, who is this fourth bloodline coming from?

The four lines would be Avi's quads. Each of Rand's kids would be a new line, while his wives are not lines.

[Elan Tedronai]

I will be honest, I didn't go through the 43 pages of this thread, but is anyone feeling the same as me, a bit... disappointed?

 

Let me explain. The book is still rated A in my opinion, or close enough, but... ok, I knew there wouldn't be climaxes as high as The gathering Storm had, but it definitely misses one defining moment (ok, Moiraine's back, but she barely spoke). But that's not what's bothering me most.

 

What's the most disturbing to me, is the insanely good turn of events that all of our taveren go through. I mean, bloody ashes, Rand/Lew Therin's as good as a savior now, wise, strong and fair. Perrin didn't face any major issue (ok, Hopper died, but hey, he's a WOLF) and trounces Graendal's plan. And Mat, yeah, the eye and all, but he goes out the Tower of Genghei still awesomely awesome. Noal/Jain dies (or is at least supposed to) but... minor character again. For all that we can read from such a somber book, it looks good as good peaches. There is not any kind of desperation to me. I may have read a bit to fast due to high level of excitement, I'll go through it again slower later, but... yeah, the effect of the Dark One on the world are more and more visible, but the Light side has pretty much succeed in everything it was involved.

 

That misses evil, by a far shot.

 

 

 

 

yes the book is somewhat poor and really really disappointing. Like one poster i am starting to root for the shadow at this rate.....actually not root but pity them. They are so useless it begs the question what is really there to fear from them.

 

 

Compare how the shadow looked from books 1 to 5 and right now. Such a stark contrast. I know Robert jordan does not like to kill any of his major characters compared to say george RR martin but this constant ass kicking by the forces of light is getting boring somewhat.

 

 

Imagine instead of tarna being turned it was egwene. Imagine if the whole white tower was destroyed and Aes Sedai dispersed completely under the forces of Taim and his black tower henchmen. Imagine moridin killing any of rand's lovers right in front of rand.

 

So far the only threat seem to be coming from the seanchan. The book was disappointing. Large parts of it was stuck in second gear with plot advancement except for moraine's rescue. Oh well one more book to go.

[Duskfire]

yes the book is somewhat poor and really really disappointing. Like one poster i am starting to root for the shadow at this rate.....actually not root but pity them. They are so useless it begs the question what is really there to fear from them.

 

 

Compare how the shadow looked from books 1 to 5 and right now. Such a stark contrast. I know Robert jordan does not like to kill any of his major characters compared to say george RR martin but this constant ass kicking by the forces of light is getting boring somewhat.

 

 

Imagine instead of tarna being turned it was egwene. Imagine if the whole white tower was destroyed and Aes Sedai dispersed completely under the forces of Taim and his black tower henchmen. Imagine moridin killing any of rand's lovers right in front of rand.

 

So far the only threat seem to be coming from the seanchan. The book was disappointing. Large parts of it was stuck in second gear with plot advancement except for moraine's rescue. Oh well one more book to go.

 

I must have read a different book?

 

I dont know about you guys, but by the end of the book I was seriously on edge. Theres just this feeling I have, this feeling of unrest, that the DO is seriously just going to asskick everyone. We already have one Borderland nation having fallen, Camelyn is in flames, the Blacktower is a haven of evil, and the Whitetower is about to be invaded by the Seanchan again. And whats going to happen when the seals are destroyed? To me, it feels like the good guys are clinging to the edge of the cliff with all they have; they just don't realise it yet. Trollocs can travel via Portal Stones - the problems this adds are immense, since no one knows where Portal Stones are. Then We don't even know where Demandred is.

 

I understand that no major characters have died - and maybe they won't - but the series isn't about that. Its not about death and destruction. Its about hope and salvation and finding reasons to fight. People constantly refer to A song of Ice and Fire, but they are completely different series with completely different themes. In The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the main character rapes someone. Would the series be better if Rand decided to go on a raping rampage?

[mossman87]

Cyndane's Plight

 

I gather that we are supposed to infer from this scene in the epilogue that Mierin is now in the unfortunate position of being pwned by the Dark Lord. However, there are some things that make me want to question this conclusion.

 

..."He comes! The shadow in every man's mind, the murderer of truth. No!" --(Apparently Cyndane/Lanfear/Mierin)

 

This could certainly refer to the Dark One, but does it? We've never heard these specific phrases in reference to the Dark One, and wouldn't Mierin, in a state of terror and despair, revert to the most familiar of titles and manners of speaking?

 

..."The shadow in every man's mind,"

 

This puts me in the mind of Mordeth and the way of his corruption in Aridhol.

 

..."The murderer of truth."

 

This sounds like a way of describing that evil. Mordeth was against the shadow, but twisted himself and his city into something just as vile. Also kind of sounds like the Betrayer of Hope as well.

 

We haven't seen the setting in which the dream takes place before. It is not, for instance, similar to any of the darker places we've seen the three Ta'veren pulled to in dreams and such. And what about Cyndane? She wasn't in trouble the last time we saw her, and we have heard nothing of her lately until this scene in the epilogue. We do know that Fain is on his way towards Shayol Ghul and probably has more than one crazy plan up his sleeve. What if he has her and is the one delivering the pwnage. I think he is quite capable of taking down a Cyndane at this point.

 

..."He has me. He flays my soul anew each eve."

 

If she were trapped in Dark Lord vertigo-painland-voidplace then would she be able to distinguish this pattern and ascribe it to happen at the eve of each day? Or is this just figurative dream-talk meant to convey that it is done over and over again? But she goes on to say that he grinds her bones and snaps them like twigs (Mashadar, anyone?), only to heal her just enough to live. Would it happen this way if she were in the grips of the Dark One? Wouldn't it be more of a constant, never-ending torment? This is what we have seen glimpses of before.

 

Of course, if Shaidar Haran is the one who has her, then this could all make sense, but this would imply that she had a major screwup since we last heard of her. Moridin specifically orders her not to kill Rand back in KoD. An infraction on this order could certainly use up her last chance, but I would think we would at least see a couple of clues pointing to that mistake somewhere if this were the case.

 

So, who has her and why? How did her cries reach Rand's own warded dream? What is the significance of this at this late juncture? Moridin? Shaidar? Fain? Bela?

 

 

Around the end when SH rapes Graendal, before that she says she's got more plans to take care of Rand, and SH mentions that task was given to another. It's obvious Lanfear is being used as a trap, one final effort by the Dark to turn Rand.

[Elan Tedronai]

yes the book is somewhat poor and really really disappointing. Like one poster i am starting to root for the shadow at this rate.....actually not root but pity them. They are so useless it begs the question what is really there to fear from them.

 

 

Compare how the shadow looked from books 1 to 5 and right now. Such a stark contrast. I know Robert jordan does not like to kill any of his major characters compared to say george RR martin but this constant ass kicking by the forces of light is getting boring somewhat.

 

 

Imagine instead of tarna being turned it was egwene. Imagine if the whole white tower was destroyed and Aes Sedai dispersed completely under the forces of Taim and his black tower henchmen. Imagine moridin killing any of rand's lovers right in front of rand.

 

So far the only threat seem to be coming from the seanchan. The book was disappointing. Large parts of it was stuck in second gear with plot advancement except for moraine's rescue. Oh well one more book to go.

 

I must have read a different book?

 

I dont know about you guys, but by the end of the book I was seriously on edge. Theres just this feeling I have, this feeling of unrest, that the DO is seriously just going to asskick everyone. We already have one Borderland nation having fallen, Camelyn is in flames, the Blacktower is a haven of evil, and the Whitetower is about to be invaded by the Seanchan again. And whats going to happen when the seals are destroyed? To me, it feels like the good guys are clinging to the edge of the cliff with all they have; they just don't realise it yet. Trollocs can travel via Portal Stones - the problems this adds are immense, since no one knows where Portal Stones are. Then We don't even know where Demandred is.

 

I understand that no major characters have died - and maybe they won't - but the series isn't about that. Its not about death and destruction. Its about hope and salvation and finding reasons to fight. People constantly refer to A song of Ice and Fire, but they are completely different series with completely different themes. In The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the main character rapes someone. Would the series be better if Rand decided to go on a raping rampage?

 

i think you have nisunderstood me. I didnt ask for rand to go on a raping rampage. I asked for the book's own theme ' the struggle between good and evil' to be honoured.

 

 

At the end of gathering storm, the shadow has lost 2 main battle points. The corruption of the white tower and the descent of rand into a crazy loon. Now in book 12 i wanted to know how the shadow is going to deal with that. Instead i get perrin escaping from the shadow and becoming yet another hero, forsaken dead and buried and moraine rescued. I could'nt care less about a borderland nation falling to trollocs. A 100,000 shadowspawn died at the hands of rand all by himself. Yes he's lews therin telamon but it just showes how weak shadowspawn are. And remember there are thousands of channellers the forces of light can call upon. No one, not even rand is going to miss the Choedan kal at this point

 

where is this ass kicking by the dark one?

 

Borderland nation falling? so? if tar valon falled and the white tower destroyed then you might have a point.

Caemlyn in flames? not yet we shall see if that large shadowspawn by the way gate will do any damage yet.

The black tower is a haven for bad guys but let's not forget there are good guys too in that midst. remember elaida's fortelling, 'the black tower will be rent in fire and blood and sisters walk it's grounds' there is a battle looming. the question is who will do the most damage?

 

Only the seanchan seem to be a threat. and they are not of the shadow.

 

 

you yourself said, not major character has died. There is no sense of dread anymore in the books. There is no epic struggle between good and evil. It's a procession at this point. The Dark one might not even bother at tarmon gaidon because he's going to get walled up back again with a whimper

[Terez]

Around the end when SH rapes Graendal, before that she says she's got more plans to take care of Rand, and SH mentions that task was given to another. It's obvious Lanfear is being used as a trap, one final effort by the Dark to turn Rand.

Actually, it's obvious that the privilege has been granted to Demandred (TGS prologue).

[Mr Ares]

yes the book is somewhat poor and really really disappointing. Like one poster i am starting to root for the shadow at this rate.....actually not root but pity them. They are so useless it begs the question what is really there to fear from them.

 

 

Compare how the shadow looked from books 1 to 5 and right now. Such a stark contrast. I know Robert jordan does not like to kill any of his major characters compared to say george RR martin but this constant ass kicking by the forces of light is getting boring somewhat.

 

 

Imagine instead of tarna being turned it was egwene. Imagine if the whole white tower was destroyed and Aes Sedai dispersed completely under the forces of Taim and his black tower henchmen. Imagine moridin killing any of rand's lovers right in front of rand.

 

So far the only threat seem to be coming from the seanchan. The book was disappointing. Large parts of it was stuck in second gear with plot advancement except for moraine's rescue. Oh well one more book to go.

 

I must have read a different book?

 

I dont know about you guys, but by the end of the book I was seriously on edge. Theres just this feeling I have, this feeling of unrest, that the DO is seriously just going to asskick everyone. We already have one Borderland nation having fallen, Camelyn is in flames, the Blacktower is a haven of evil, and the Whitetower is about to be invaded by the Seanchan again. And whats going to happen when the seals are destroyed? To me, it feels like the good guys are clinging to the edge of the cliff with all they have; they just don't realise it yet. Trollocs can travel via Portal Stones - the problems this adds are immense, since no one knows where Portal Stones are. Then We don't even know where Demandred is.

 

I understand that no major characters have died - and maybe they won't - but the series isn't about that. Its not about death and destruction. Its about hope and salvation and finding reasons to fight. People constantly refer to A song of Ice and Fire, but they are completely different series with completely different themes. In The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the main character rapes someone. Would the series be better if Rand decided to go on a raping rampage?

I agree with you on the lack of death not being a bad thing. RJ said that the Shadow was winning, and the truth of that seems to be getting clearer. True, the major good guys are still alive and kicking, and a fair few Chosen have died, but the Chosen are simply tools of Shai'tan, while the three ta'veren at the least are essential for the Light's victory. Killing a Chosen is helpful, killing Rand means the Light has lost. That's a pretty big imbalance, so the lack of Light side death doesn't bother me that much. Besides, we have the Shadow turning people at the BT, we have the Seanchan still gunning for the WT, we have Caemlyn in flames, and we have the Ogier leaning towards leaving. We have those chaps with the red veils - male Aiel channelers turned to the Shadow? Sharamen? Something else? People had already suspected that the Shadow had been recruiting Dreadlords, and there are hints that that really might be the case. We don't know the full strength of the Shadow, but it's really not hard to see that things might be going pretty badly for the Light. Now, while I think we can all agree that the Light is going to win the Last Battle, that doesn't mean they are going to have an easy time of it, and it could be that some people will still fall before all is said and done.

 

Also, am I the only one who gets sick of hearing Martin's name in conjunction with character death? People who have never read the series are going to approach Game of Thrones like it's a bloodbath, and come out going "was that it?" due to casualty rates being much lower than expected. Martin is far from the only author to kill people off, and he wasn't the first, and I doubt he's even the most prolific at it, nor the most ruthless. I know this rant is a little random, but really, can't anyone find another example? Steven Erikson? Paul Kearney?

 

Finally, on a completely unrelated note, would it be unseemly to gloat about Asmo's killer? Yes, it would. Will that stop me? Of course not.

[dwn]

Also, am I the only one who gets sick of hearing Martin's name in conjunction with character death? People who have never read the series are going to approach Game of Thrones like it's a bloodbath, and come out going "was that it?" due to casualty rates being much lower than expected. Martin is far from the only author to kill people off, and he wasn't the first, and I doubt he's even the most prolific at it, nor the most ruthless. I know this rant is a little random, but really, can't anyone find another example? Steven Erikson? Paul Kearney?

 

You aren't the only one. The character deaths in ASOIAF are all done carefully to further the plot, and are hardly a bloodbath for shock value. While RJ has created a plethora of characters, his focus has been on the main six (Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve). GRRM simply has a wider (and more multigenerational) cast of near primary characters to play with, not to mention a very different story.

 

Given that, we do see secondary characters die or harmed in WoT: Verin, Jaichim Carridan, Jaret Byar, Katerine, Tarna, Reanne Corly, Vandene, Adeleas, Siuan, Leane, Moiraine, Morgase, to name a few. Even the Forsaken who have died could be considered secondary. Of all the Forsaken, only Lanfear and Ishamael have been fleshed out to any great degree, and even so are hardly primary characters.

 

Incidentally, I've always thought the best comparison to WoT was Stephen Donaldson's Thomas Covenant series.

 

-- dwn

[Mystica]

I had to digest the book a bit before I could post some first thoughts (though I have posted my very first thought right after here in this thread).

 

Perhaps I'm just a doom seeer at heart, but I still (after having slept on it and reading quite an extensive ammount of your comments in the various threads here) have this looming sense of dred for the future. Wether or not the Light side wins, I can't shake the feeling that the future will be bleak, dark and hopeless still. By the shere nature of humans alone.

 

Those dragons tore at my heart, the same way the industrialisation in LoTR portrayed the fall of all that was good and decent in the world (aka: nature). They usher in a new type of warfare, much like the one we know in our own world since the invention of gunpowder. Honor replaced by impersonal destruction from afar, feeding greed and lust for power higher than before without being balanced by the personal impact of the whole thing to those that command it. I have always been a fan of both Elayne and Egwene, but in this book (for the first time in the series) I really dislike them both. Aludra's hatred is on par with Child Bayer's (sp?), blind to anything but her vengence. Military quick to jump on the added edge and a monarch all but drooling over being the only one with those weapons, imposing her will on other nations and groups of people.

 

Elayne's powerhunger seeps through even more in the way her mind works in the 'use' she can put the Kin to. Abusing the One Power and her position as Aes Sedai as a means and a tool for personal gain and power (making people pày to use gateways?). This is precisely why allowing Aes Sedai to also be queens is a really bad thing. If it doesn't put the nation itself on an unparallelled advantage towards the other nations, it gives way too much power to teh White Tower, ruled by women convinced of their own superiority. If they were more like Wise Ones, I'd not have a problem with it, but Sisters as they are in this Age? No.

 

I was dissapointed at the Amyrlin's Anger chapter. After seeing Egwene's anger towards the Seanchan, her confrontation with Rand was almost an afternoon Sunday tea party. She came across as weak to me. I didn't see any anger. The Sitters having their tongues in a twist felt like a rather weak attempt in empowering Egwene's ability to deal with Rand and didn't improve the impact of the situation in my eyes. For all we know, Rand may have put different effects on different Aes Sedai. Siuan didn't have any problems speaking to him when he came to her. This whole event was rather an anti-climax.

 

May I ask where the Tinkers are? I still feel they will be of the utmost importance to the LB, but last we heard from them they were settling down in Arad Doman under Seanchan rule.

 

Much in this book seems either forced or squeezed in just to get it out of the way and finish up loose ends. I don't even want to think how it would have been if the last three books had been only one. If this is the one-but-last one, I can't shake the feeling they should have made 5 books out of the original MoL, not three. That way, many of the open hangings could have been decently addressed, in stead of rushing through them as it feels now for many of them to me.

 

Aviendha's arc was weird. Brilliant, but weird. And once again proves (to me) that humans will àlways find a way to serve the Dark, even if they are utterly dedicated to the Light and convinced they're doing the right thing. So long as they don't understand and acknowledge their own self-importance nature, that will never change. Last Battle or not, Dragon Reborns or not, Pattern or not. The real question is why the Creator allows them to continue to exist, when even in the best of times they're only focus seems to be 'me me me'.

 

Which brings me to the reason of my disturbance. I read fantasy to 'get away from reality'. Not to have my face rubbed in it again. I use the illusions of fantasy to deal with the bleakness of reality. If fantasy starts feeding me the same bleakness...... *shrugs*

[nolirion]

I had to digest the book a bit before I could post some first thoughts (though I have posted my very first thought right after here in this thread).

 

Perhaps I'm just a doom seeer at heart, but I still (after having slept on it and reading quite an extensive ammount of your comments in the various threads here) have this looming sense of dred for the future. Wether or not the Light side wins, I can't shake the feeling that the future will be bleak, dark and hopeless still. By the shere nature of humans alone.

 

Those dragons tore at my heart, the same way the industrialisation in LoTR portrayed the fall of all that was good and decent in the world (aka: nature). They usher in a new type of warfare, much like the one we know in our own world since the invention of gunpowder. Honor replaced by impersonal destruction from afar, feeding greed and lust for power higher than before without being balanced by the personal impact of the whole thing to those that command it. I have always been a fan of both Elayne and Egwene, but in this book (for the first time in the series) I really dislike them both. Aludra's hatred is on par with Child Bayer's (sp?), blind to anything but her vengence. Military quick to jump on the added edge and a monarch all but drooling over being the only one with those weapons, imposing her will on other nations and groups of people.

 

Elayne's powerhunger seeps through even more in the way her mind works in the 'use' she can put the Kin to. Abusing the One Power and her position as Aes Sedai as a means and a tool for personal gain and power (making people pày to use gateways?). This is precisely why allowing Aes Sedai to also be queens is a really bad thing. If it doesn't put the nation itself on an unparallelled advantage towards the other nations, it gives way too much power to teh White Tower, ruled by women convinced of their own superiority. If they were more like Wise Ones, I'd not have a problem with it, but Sisters as they are in this Age? No.

 

I was dissapointed at the Amyrlin's Anger chapter. After seeing Egwene's anger towards the Seanchan, her confrontation with Rand was almost an afternoon Sunday tea party. She came across as weak to me. I didn't see any anger. The Sitters having their tongues in a twist felt like a rather weak attempt in empowering Egwene's ability to deal with Rand and didn't improve the impact of the situation in my eyes. For all we know, Rand may have put different effects on different Aes Sedai. Siuan didn't have any problems speaking to him when he came to her. This whole event was rather an anti-climax.

 

May I ask where the Tinkers are? I still feel they will be of the utmost importance to the LB, but last we heard from them they were settling down in Arad Doman under Seanchan rule.

 

Much in this book seems either forced or squeezed in just to get it out of the way and finish up loose ends. I don't even want to think how it would have been if the last three books had been only one. If this is the one-but-last one, I can't shake the feeling they should have made 5 books out of the original MoL, not three. That way, many of the open hangings could have been decently addressed, in stead of rushing through them as it feels now for many of them to me.

 

Aviendha's arc was weird. Brilliant, but weird. And once again proves (to me) that humans will àlways find a way to serve the Dark, even if they are utterly dedicated to the Light and convinced they're doing the right thing. So long as they don't understand and acknowledge their own self-importance nature, that will never change. Last Battle or not, Dragon Reborns or not, Pattern or not. The real question is why the Creator allows them to continue to exist, when even in the best of times they're only focus seems to be 'me me me'.

 

Which brings me to the reason of my disturbance. I read fantasy to 'get away from reality'. Not to have my face rubbed in it again. I use the illusions of fantasy to deal with the bleakness of reality. If fantasy starts feeding me the same bleakness...... *shrugs*

Don't agree with you it is this bleakness and how our Hero overcome it that make me thrill when I read Wot , The Aviendha's arc shown us a future where the light win but mankind fall's to the seanchan (Seanchan been a twisted idea of what Hawking Empire had been )

[Mystica]

that's just my point, the 'heroes' overcome it but their offspring go right back to making the same mistakes over and over again. That whole 'so we can love again' epiphany Rand had seems rather hollow to me in the greater scheme of things.

 

Almost I could hope for the Seanchan to conquer it all, though I abhore the slavery trait in their culture. Still, even slaves can have an enormous amount of freedom and power in the Seanchan empire and there is no denying that the Seanchan controlled lands are much more peaceful than the other ones. That's what struck Rand when he went to destroy them. People were healthy, happy, content. There was an atmosphere of peace of safety for all, not just the priveleged few. The contrast of it with is own lands was so much that it snapped him out of his destructive frenzy and at the same time made him angry about the irony of it. I find it odd that many readers choose to so easily forget those things.

 

Andor is considered the most democratic nation in Randland, and yet..... In Andor, even before the outbreak of evil right at the beginning, there was crime, people that were so poor they needed to beg, etc. That just doesn't exist in Seanchan. It's all well and dandy in Randland for those that have something, but those that have nothing are left to chance and faith.

 

I know many people like the link to reality, but if I want reality I'll watch the news and read newspapers. Not read fantasy books.

[decrepid dragon]

Damodred is definitely going to be revealed as either one of those guys in the black tower (noble looking beard man), or high king Darlin.

My money is on Darlin

 

Maybe he is even Padin Fain in disguise

[Sharaman]

Damodred is definitely going to be revealed as either one of those guys in the black tower (noble looking beard man), or high king Darlin.

My money is on Darlin

 

Maybe he is even Padin Fain in disguise

One Damodred is Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light

A second is Mrs Darlin

A third is Mrs Merrilin

It's unlikely that they'll suddenly be revealed as somebody else.

[nolirion]

that's just my point, the 'heroes' overcome it but their offspring go right back to making the same mistakes over and over again. That whole 'so we can love again' epiphany Rand had seems rather hollow to me in the greater scheme of things.

 

Almost I could hope for the Seanchan to conquer it all, though I abhore the slavery trait in their culture. Still, even slaves can have an enormous amount of freedom and power in the Seanchan empire and there is no denying that the Seanchan controlled lands are much more peaceful than the other ones. That's what struck Rand when he went to destroy them. People were healthy, happy, content. There was an atmosphere of peace of safety for all, not just the priveleged few. The contrast of it with is own lands was so much that it snapped him out of his destructive frenzy and at the same time made him angry about the irony of it. I find it odd that many readers choose to so easily forget those things.

 

Andor is considered the most democratic nation in Randland, and yet..... In Andor, even before the outbreak of evil right at the beginning, there was crime, people that were so poor they needed to beg, etc. That just doesn't exist in Seanchan. It's all well and dandy in Randland for those that have something, but those that have nothing are left to chance and faith.

 

I know many people like the link to reality, but if I want reality I'll watch the news and read newspapers. Not read fantasy books.

Yet you take a land corrupted by the shadow as comparison , the Seanchan are equally twisted to my eyes that where The Wetland society .

In Seanchan Society thing are not as good as it seam , simply the channeler take on their shoulder so much of the obligation of society that he came easy for the "Blood" to take care of their people , and even that is badly made .

What does the Seanchan is alike to compulsion , and the whole seeker of truth thing remind me of the inquisition . But the worst in Seanchan is their asumption , they believe in omen and laugh at the idea of trolloc gholam fade.

[Mystica]

all lands were corrupted by the Shadow. The White Tower itself was infested with it all the way to the top, and they're supposed to be 'Servants of All'. The Light doesn't discriminate, neither does the Dark. They both are everywhere, as constant and consistent opposit forces. Tear, Andor, Arad Doman, the Children, etc. All infested and corrupted by the Shadow.

 

The Seanchan's superstitions are a cultural element, not an indication of evil. Would you believe trollocs walked the earth in Real Life if tomorrow someone suddenly told you so? No you wouldn't, because the thought of it is too incredulous to believe. What if it were true though? What would make you believe? Ten people telling you? A hundred? Or actually seeing the thing yourself? This is exactly what happened to the Seanchan. From all the sources it is clear that Seanchan didn't have any dealings with the shadowspawn since thousands of years. Unlike in Randland where they have been a constant in the Borderlands. And even there, many in the Southern nations thought those stories 'children's tails'. Just because as a reader we have the privelege of knowing the truth, doesn't incriminate the Seanchan for not knowing what they can not know until they are confronted with it. Having one of the main characters tell them and them going 'oh, right, I believe the thousands of years of our believes are false and you're right eventhough I've only known you for a few weeks' is a bit unfair to expect.

 

We have a tendency to view slavery from our own history and as such view it as the ultimate of evil (which in our history it surely was). What we keep failing to recognise is that the whole concept of slavery in Seanchan is an integral, and in most cases, a very 'honorable' element of society. Honor being one of the highest values in the Seanchan Empire. Is it flawless? Hell no. The whole concept of chaining women and treating them like animals is abonimable and no amount of justification can make it right. The concept of choosing an Empress by means of having her offspring kill each other and applaud the most prolifent killer is equally abominable. But that too is not restricted to Seanchan. Kings and Queens in Randland have to watch out for assassinations from contestants to the throne as well. And not just until they become King/Queen, but for the entirety of their lives.

 

Aside from those two things, however, there is a non-deniable peace to the Seanchan Empire for the majority of people.

 

Seekers of the Truth are no worse than the Children Questioners, the Questioners from Kings and Queens or the Lords and Ladies in lands where commoners and peasants are regarded as fair game to nobility like in Tear.

 

Spies are used by everyone, just because their existence is known in Seanchan doesn't make them worse. In an odd way, it makes it more honest. How many outsiders from the White Tower would know the Ajahs have eyes & ears, you think? At least the Seanchan citizens 'know' there are spies, which is more than can be said from the Randlanders.

[nolirion]

all lands were corrupted by the Shadow. The White Tower itself was infested with it all the way to the top, and they're supposed to be 'Servants of All'. The Light doesn't discriminate, neither does the Dark. They both are everywhere, as constant and consistent opposit forces. Tear, Andor, Arad Doman, the Children, etc. All infested and corrupted by the Shadow.

 

The Seanchan's superstitions are a cultural element, not an indication of evil. Would you believe trollocs walked the earth in Real Life if tomorrow someone suddenly told you so? No you wouldn't, because the thought of it is too incredulous to believe. What if it were true though? What would make you believe? Ten people telling you? A hundred? Or actually seeing the thing yourself? This is exactly what happened to the Seanchan. From all the sources it is clear that Seanchan didn't have any dealings with the shadowspawn since thousands of years. Unlike in Randland where they have been a constant in the Borderlands. And even there, many in the Southern nations thought those stories 'children's tails'. Just because as a reader we have the privelege of knowing the truth, doesn't incriminate the Seanchan for not knowing what they can not know until they are confronted with it. Having one of the main characters tell them and them going 'oh, right, I believe the thousands of years of our believes are false and you're right eventhough I've only known you for a few weeks' is a bit unfair to expect.

 

We have a tendency to view slavery from our own history and as such view it as the ultimate of evil (which in our history it surely was). What we keep failing to recognise is that the whole concept of slavery in Seanchan is an integral, and in most cases, a very 'honorable' element of society. Honor being one of the highest values in the Seanchan Empire. Is it flawless? Hell no. The whole concept of chaining women and treating them like animals is abonimable and no amount of justification can make it right. The concept of choosing an Empress by means of having her offspring kill each other and applaud the most prolifent killer is equally abominable. But that too is not restricted to Seanchan. Kings and Queens in Randland have to watch out for assassinations from contestants to the throne as well. And not just until they become King/Queen, but for the entirety of their lives.

 

Aside from those two things, however, there is a non-deniable peace to the Seanchan Empire for the majority of people.

 

Seekers of the Truth are no worse than the Children Questioners, the Questioners from Kings and Queens or the Lords and Ladies in lands where commoners and peasants are regarded as fair game to nobility like in Tear.

 

Spies are used by everyone, just because their existence is known in Seanchan doesn't make them worse. In an odd way, it makes it more honest. How many outsiders from the White Tower would know the Ajahs have eyes & ears, you think? At least the Seanchan citizens 'know' there are spies, which is more than can be said from the Randlanders.

I have misspoken their way of seeing the trolloc what not what i found evil , what i found evil is the whole concept of the tower of Raven , of their way of treating channeler .

In the end what you said is that the end ( peace and order) justify the mean , witch Disagree .

For one you are extremely optimistic , such a way of life can be turn way more easily to total disaster as it at been proven in TGS .

And like i said before for Seanchan it is no slavery , the Damane are dangerous and must be leashed for their and our good a twisted idea that take in root in isha corruption of Hawking . They are no human anymore they are beast alike ,

the system of Blood Do'cavel or alike I have no problem with that it is akin to the all liege stuff with lord .

Seeker of truth are in a way more representative of their system . Their is such suspicion on their culture that people are constantly watch .

It is about freedom in the end

[Mystica]

all lands were corrupted by the Shadow. The White Tower itself was infested with it all the way to the top, and they're supposed to be 'Servants of All'. The Light doesn't discriminate, neither does the Dark. They both are everywhere, as constant and consistent opposit forces. Tear, Andor, Arad Doman, the Children, etc. All infested and corrupted by the Shadow.

 

The Seanchan's superstitions are a cultural element, not an indication of evil. Would you believe trollocs walked the earth in Real Life if tomorrow someone suddenly told you so? No you wouldn't, because the thought of it is too incredulous to believe. What if it were true though? What would make you believe? Ten people telling you? A hundred? Or actually seeing the thing yourself? This is exactly what happened to the Seanchan. From all the sources it is clear that Seanchan didn't have any dealings with the shadowspawn since thousands of years. Unlike in Randland where they have been a constant in the Borderlands. And even there, many in the Southern nations thought those stories 'children's tails'. Just because as a reader we have the privelege of knowing the truth, doesn't incriminate the Seanchan for not knowing what they can not know until they are confronted with it. Having one of the main characters tell them and them going 'oh, right, I believe the thousands of years of our believes are false and you're right eventhough I've only known you for a few weeks' is a bit unfair to expect.

 

We have a tendency to view slavery from our own history and as such view it as the ultimate of evil (which in our history it surely was). What we keep failing to recognise is that the whole concept of slavery in Seanchan is an integral, and in most cases, a very 'honorable' element of society. Honor being one of the highest values in the Seanchan Empire. Is it flawless? Hell no. The whole concept of chaining women and treating them like animals is abonimable and no amount of justification can make it right. The concept of choosing an Empress by means of having her offspring kill each other and applaud the most prolifent killer is equally abominable. But that too is not restricted to Seanchan. Kings and Queens in Randland have to watch out for assassinations from contestants to the throne as well. And not just until they become King/Queen, but for the entirety of their lives.

 

Aside from those two things, however, there is a non-deniable peace to the Seanchan Empire for the majority of people.

 

Seekers of the Truth are no worse than the Children Questioners, the Questioners from Kings and Queens or the Lords and Ladies in lands where commoners and peasants are regarded as fair game to nobility like in Tear.

 

Spies are used by everyone, just because their existence is known in Seanchan doesn't make them worse. In an odd way, it makes it more honest. How many outsiders from the White Tower would know the Ajahs have eyes & ears, you think? At least the Seanchan citizens 'know' there are spies, which is more than can be said from the Randlanders.

I have misspoken their way of seeing the trolloc what not what i found evil , what i found evil is the whole concept of the tower of Raven , of their way of treating channeler .

In the end what you said is that the end ( peace and order) justify the mean , witch Disagree .

For one you are extremely optimistic , such a way of life can be turn way more easily to total disaster as it at been proven in TGS .

And like i said before for Seanchan it is no slavery , the Damane are dangerous and must be leashed for their and our good a twisted idea that take in root in isha corruption of Hawking . They are no human anymore they are beast alike ,

the system of Blood Do'cavel or alike I have no problem with that it is akin to the all liege stuff with lord .

Seeker of truth are in a way more representative of their system . Their is such suspicion on their culture that people are constantly watch .

It is about freedom in the end

 

I'm not optimistic, in fact I'm quite pessimistic regarding ànything to do with humans (regardless which society system is used). Precisely of the 'nature' of humans to be selfish, self-important and powerlusting, despite all the lofty claims they make (yes I know I am one too, to my dying shame). What I try to point out is that this tendency to paint the Seanchan as more evil than the other nations is a one-sided way of looking at things. I said the Seanchan system is not flawless, I believe. What I counter is the manner in which they are painted as the evil ones and the Randland nations painted as the Heavens on Earth by comparison. The fact of the matter is that there is no 'completely good' system in any of the nations and there is good elements in all of them.

 

The Aiel Wise Ones, for instance, can be labeled as almost criminally naive in the way they refuse to believe Wise Ones could ever break the Ji'e'toh rule. That fact alone played a major part in Rand being taken and the battle at Dumai's Well. Are we now to dismiss the entire Aiel culture as ignorant brutes that know nothing else but how to kill someone? No, we don't. Because the majority of them are on Rand's side. If they hadn't been, however, they'd be labeled as evil too. Just because we as readers choose a side, doesn't necessarily make all other sides enheritantly evil.

 

It's the Galad Mantra: black or white, with no room for the myriad of greys.

[nolirion]

all lands were corrupted by the Shadow. The White Tower itself was infested with it all the way to the top, and they're supposed to be 'Servants of All'. The Light doesn't discriminate, neither does the Dark. They both are everywhere, as constant and consistent opposit forces. Tear, Andor, Arad Doman, the Children, etc. All infested and corrupted by the Shadow.

 

The Seanchan's superstitions are a cultural element, not an indication of evil. Would you believe trollocs walked the earth in Real Life if tomorrow someone suddenly told you so? No you wouldn't, because the thought of it is too incredulous to believe. What if it were true though? What would make you believe? Ten people telling you? A hundred? Or actually seeing the thing yourself? This is exactly what happened to the Seanchan. From all the sources it is clear that Seanchan didn't have any dealings with the shadowspawn since thousands of years. Unlike in Randland where they have been a constant in the Borderlands. And even there, many in the Southern nations thought those stories 'children's tails'. Just because as a reader we have the privelege of knowing the truth, doesn't incriminate the Seanchan for not knowing what they can not know until they are confronted with it. Having one of the main characters tell them and them going 'oh, right, I believe the thousands of years of our believes are false and you're right eventhough I've only known you for a few weeks' is a bit unfair to expect.

 

We have a tendency to view slavery from our own history and as such view it as the ultimate of evil (which in our history it surely was). What we keep failing to recognise is that the whole concept of slavery in Seanchan is an integral, and in most cases, a very 'honorable' element of society. Honor being one of the highest values in the Seanchan Empire. Is it flawless? Hell no. The whole concept of chaining women and treating them like animals is abonimable and no amount of justification can make it right. The concept of choosing an Empress by means of having her offspring kill each other and applaud the most prolifent killer is equally abominable. But that too is not restricted to Seanchan. Kings and Queens in Randland have to watch out for assassinations from contestants to the throne as well. And not just until they become King/Queen, but for the entirety of their lives.

 

Aside from those two things, however, there is a non-deniable peace to the Seanchan Empire for the majority of people.

 

Seekers of the Truth are no worse than the Children Questioners, the Questioners from Kings and Queens or the Lords and Ladies in lands where commoners and peasants are regarded as fair game to nobility like in Tear.

 

Spies are used by everyone, just because their existence is known in Seanchan doesn't make them worse. In an odd way, it makes it more honest. How many outsiders from the White Tower would know the Ajahs have eyes & ears, you think? At least the Seanchan citizens 'know' there are spies, which is more than can be said from the Randlanders.

I have misspoken their way of seeing the trolloc what not what i found evil , what i found evil is the whole concept of the tower of Raven , of their way of treating channeler .

In the end what you said is that the end ( peace and order) justify the mean , witch Disagree .

For one you are extremely optimistic , such a way of life can be turn way more easily to total disaster as it at been proven in TGS .

And like i said before for Seanchan it is no slavery , the Damane are dangerous and must be leashed for their and our good a twisted idea that take in root in isha corruption of Hawking . They are no human anymore they are beast alike ,

the system of Blood Do'cavel or alike I have no problem with that it is akin to the all liege stuff with lord .

Seeker of truth are in a way more representative of their system . Their is such suspicion on their culture that people are constantly watch .

It is about freedom in the end

 

I'm not optimistic, in fact I'm quite pessimistic regarding ànything to do with humans (regardless which society system is used). Precisely of the 'nature' of humans to be selfish, self-important and powerlusting, despite all the lofty claims they make (yes I know I am one too, to my dying shame). What I try to point out is that this tendency to paint the Seanchan as more evil than the other nations is a one-sided way of looking at things. I said the Seanchan system is not flawless, I believe. What I counter is the manner in which they are painted as the evil ones and the Randland nations painted as the Heavens on Earth by comparison. The fact of the matter is that there is no 'completely good' system in any of the nations and there is good elements in all of them.

 

The Aiel Wise Ones, for instance, can be labeled as almost criminally naive in the way they refuse to believe Wise Ones could ever break the Ji'e'toh rule. That fact alone played a major part in Rand being taken and the battle at Dumai's Well. Are we now to dismiss the entire Aiel culture as ignorant brutes that know nothing else but how to kill someone? No, we don't. Because the majority of them are on Rand's side. If they hadn't been, however, they'd be labeled as evil too. Just because we as readers choose a side, doesn't necessarily make all other sides enheritantly evil.

 

It's the Galad Mantra: black or white, with no room for the myriad of greys.

Oh you are quite right , Randland was plagued by humain greed and stupidity , yet our hero rose and turn it right . I just can't see that Happening in the Seanchan especially the rise of Rand , yet as you said Aiel , wetlander even Aes'Sedai are not flawless far from it .

Yet their peace or well being doe's not justify their lack of freedom or change , in a way their success make them more dangerous as the previous Randland .

Because as you said you are tempted to think their ways is the best way .

Is is neitheir black or White or myriad of greys but a infinity of color (i come near a quote of the book i think).

[Mystica]

all lands were corrupted by the Shadow. The White Tower itself was infested with it all the way to the top, and they're supposed to be 'Servants of All'. The Light doesn't discriminate, neither does the Dark. They both are everywhere, as constant and consistent opposit forces. Tear, Andor, Arad Doman, the Children, etc. All infested and corrupted by the Shadow.

 

The Seanchan's superstitions are a cultural element, not an indication of evil. Would you believe trollocs walked the earth in Real Life if tomorrow someone suddenly told you so? No you wouldn't, because the thought of it is too incredulous to believe. What if it were true though? What would make you believe? Ten people telling you? A hundred? Or actually seeing the thing yourself? This is exactly what happened to the Seanchan. From all the sources it is clear that Seanchan didn't have any dealings with the shadowspawn since thousands of years. Unlike in Randland where they have been a constant in the Borderlands. And even there, many in the Southern nations thought those stories 'children's tails'. Just because as a reader we have the privelege of knowing the truth, doesn't incriminate the Seanchan for not knowing what they can not know until they are confronted with it. Having one of the main characters tell them and them going 'oh, right, I believe the thousands of years of our believes are false and you're right eventhough I've only known you for a few weeks' is a bit unfair to expect.

 

We have a tendency to view slavery from our own history and as such view it as the ultimate of evil (which in our history it surely was). What we keep failing to recognise is that the whole concept of slavery in Seanchan is an integral, and in most cases, a very 'honorable' element of society. Honor being one of the highest values in the Seanchan Empire. Is it flawless? Hell no. The whole concept of chaining women and treating them like animals is abonimable and no amount of justification can make it right. The concept of choosing an Empress by means of having her offspring kill each other and applaud the most prolifent killer is equally abominable. But that too is not restricted to Seanchan. Kings and Queens in Randland have to watch out for assassinations from contestants to the throne as well. And not just until they become King/Queen, but for the entirety of their lives.

 

Aside from those two things, however, there is a non-deniable peace to the Seanchan Empire for the majority of people.

 

Seekers of the Truth are no worse than the Children Questioners, the Questioners from Kings and Queens or the Lords and Ladies in lands where commoners and peasants are regarded as fair game to nobility like in Tear.

 

Spies are used by everyone, just because their existence is known in Seanchan doesn't make them worse. In an odd way, it makes it more honest. How many outsiders from the White Tower would know the Ajahs have eyes & ears, you think? At least the Seanchan citizens 'know' there are spies, which is more than can be said from the Randlanders.

I have misspoken their way of seeing the trolloc what not what i found evil , what i found evil is the whole concept of the tower of Raven , of their way of treating channeler .

In the end what you said is that the end ( peace and order) justify the mean , witch Disagree .

For one you are extremely optimistic , such a way of life can be turn way more easily to total disaster as it at been proven in TGS .

And like i said before for Seanchan it is no slavery , the Damane are dangerous and must be leashed for their and our good a twisted idea that take in root in isha corruption of Hawking . They are no human anymore they are beast alike ,

the system of Blood Do'cavel or alike I have no problem with that it is akin to the all liege stuff with lord .

Seeker of truth are in a way more representative of their system . Their is such suspicion on their culture that people are constantly watch .

It is about freedom in the end

 

I'm not optimistic, in fact I'm quite pessimistic regarding ànything to do with humans (regardless which society system is used). Precisely of the 'nature' of humans to be selfish, self-important and powerlusting, despite all the lofty claims they make (yes I know I am one too, to my dying shame). What I try to point out is that this tendency to paint the Seanchan as more evil than the other nations is a one-sided way of looking at things. I said the Seanchan system is not flawless, I believe. What I counter is the manner in which they are painted as the evil ones and the Randland nations painted as the Heavens on Earth by comparison. The fact of the matter is that there is no 'completely good' system in any of the nations and there is good elements in all of them.

 

The Aiel Wise Ones, for instance, can be labeled as almost criminally naive in the way they refuse to believe Wise Ones could ever break the Ji'e'toh rule. That fact alone played a major part in Rand being taken and the battle at Dumai's Well. Are we now to dismiss the entire Aiel culture as ignorant brutes that know nothing else but how to kill someone? No, we don't. Because the majority of them are on Rand's side. If they hadn't been, however, they'd be labeled as evil too. Just because we as readers choose a side, doesn't necessarily make all other sides enheritantly evil.

 

It's the Galad Mantra: black or white, with no room for the myriad of greys.

Oh you are quite right , Randland was plagued by humain greed and stupidity , yet our hero rose and turn it right . I just can't see that Happening in the Seanchan especially the rise of Rand , yet as you said Aiel , wetlander even Aes'Sedai are not flawless far from it .

Yet their peace or well being doe's not justify their lack of freedom or change , in a way their success make them more dangerous as the previous Randland .

Because as you said you are tempted to think their ways is the best way .

Is is neitheir black or White or myriad of greys but a infinity of color (i come near a quote of the book i think).

 

yup, that's what is said in the book.

 

I'm not saying their way is 'the' best way. I'm saying that 'compared to the other ways' it seems the better option. That would not undo the fact or necessity to deal with those unacceptable elements however.

 

What I mean is that considering how the Randlanders seem to be poised to go back to their familiar 'power! gimme!' type ways once the LB is done (and once our heroes are gone), the Seanchan unity and peace seems the best option (which is not a good thing. Hence my sadness and disturbed feeling).

 

It would appear that people simply do not learn from their past mistakes once a major threat is past. They jsut hop right back in to their old familiar ways of greed and powerlusting. The Real World is full of examples of that. And it looks like it will be the same in WOT. Which brings me back to the disturbing notion that the story is becoming too realistic for comfort (as I read fantasy to get away from reality, as said before).

[nolirion]

all lands were corrupted by the Shadow. The White Tower itself was infested with it all the way to the top, and they're supposed to be 'Servants of All'. The Light doesn't discriminate, neither does the Dark. They both are everywhere, as constant and consistent opposit forces. Tear, Andor, Arad Doman, the Children, etc. All infested and corrupted by the Shadow.

 

The Seanchan's superstitions are a cultural element, not an indication of evil. Would you believe trollocs walked the earth in Real Life if tomorrow someone suddenly told you so? No you wouldn't, because the thought of it is too incredulous to believe. What if it were true though? What would make you believe? Ten people telling you? A hundred? Or actually seeing the thing yourself? This is exactly what happened to the Seanchan. From all the sources it is clear that Seanchan didn't have any dealings with the shadowspawn since thousands of years. Unlike in Randland where they have been a constant in the Borderlands. And even there, many in the Southern nations thought those stories 'children's tails'. Just because as a reader we have the privelege of knowing the truth, doesn't incriminate the Seanchan for not knowing what they can not know until they are confronted with it. Having one of the main characters tell them and them going 'oh, right, I believe the thousands of years of our believes are false and you're right eventhough I've only known you for a few weeks' is a bit unfair to expect.

 

We have a tendency to view slavery from our own history and as such view it as the ultimate of evil (which in our history it surely was). What we keep failing to recognise is that the whole concept of slavery in Seanchan is an integral, and in most cases, a very 'honorable' element of society. Honor being one of the highest values in the Seanchan Empire. Is it flawless? Hell no. The whole concept of chaining women and treating them like animals is abonimable and no amount of justification can make it right. The concept of choosing an Empress by means of having her offspring kill each other and applaud the most prolifent killer is equally abominable. But that too is not restricted to Seanchan. Kings and Queens in Randland have to watch out for assassinations from contestants to the throne as well. And not just until they become King/Queen, but for the entirety of their lives.

 

Aside from those two things, however, there is a non-deniable peace to the Seanchan Empire for the majority of people.

 

Seekers of the Truth are no worse than the Children Questioners, the Questioners from Kings and Queens or the Lords and Ladies in lands where commoners and peasants are regarded as fair game to nobility like in Tear.

 

Spies are used by everyone, just because their existence is known in Seanchan doesn't make them worse. In an odd way, it makes it more honest. How many outsiders from the White Tower would know the Ajahs have eyes & ears, you think? At least the Seanchan citizens 'know' there are spies, which is more than can be said from the Randlanders.

I have misspoken their way of seeing the trolloc what not what i found evil , what i found evil is the whole concept of the tower of Raven , of their way of treating channeler .

In the end what you said is that the end ( peace and order) justify the mean , witch Disagree .

For one you are extremely optimistic , such a way of life can be turn way more easily to total disaster as it at been proven in TGS .

And like i said before for Seanchan it is no slavery , the Damane are dangerous and must be leashed for their and our good a twisted idea that take in root in isha corruption of Hawking . They are no human anymore they are beast alike ,

the system of Blood Do'cavel or alike I have no problem with that it is akin to the all liege stuff with lord .

Seeker of truth are in a way more representative of their system . Their is such suspicion on their culture that people are constantly watch .

It is about freedom in the end

 

I'm not optimistic, in fact I'm quite pessimistic regarding ànything to do with humans (regardless which society system is used). Precisely of the 'nature' of humans to be selfish, self-important and powerlusting, despite all the lofty claims they make (yes I know I am one too, to my dying shame). What I try to point out is that this tendency to paint the Seanchan as more evil than the other nations is a one-sided way of looking at things. I said the Seanchan system is not flawless, I believe. What I counter is the manner in which they are painted as the evil ones and the Randland nations painted as the Heavens on Earth by comparison. The fact of the matter is that there is no 'completely good' system in any of the nations and there is good elements in all of them.

 

The Aiel Wise Ones, for instance, can be labeled as almost criminally naive in the way they refuse to believe Wise Ones could ever break the Ji'e'toh rule. That fact alone played a major part in Rand being taken and the battle at Dumai's Well. Are we now to dismiss the entire Aiel culture as ignorant brutes that know nothing else but how to kill someone? No, we don't. Because the majority of them are on Rand's side. If they hadn't been, however, they'd be labeled as evil too. Just because we as readers choose a side, doesn't necessarily make all other sides enheritantly evil.

 

It's the Galad Mantra: black or white, with no room for the myriad of greys.

Oh you are quite right , Randland was plagued by humain greed and stupidity , yet our hero rose and turn it right . I just can't see that Happening in the Seanchan especially the rise of Rand , yet as you said Aiel , wetlander even Aes'Sedai are not flawless far from it .

Yet their peace or well being doe's not justify their lack of freedom or change , in a way their success make them more dangerous as the previous Randland .

Because as you said you are tempted to think their ways is the best way .

Is is neitheir black or White or myriad of greys but a infinity of color (i come near a quote of the book i think).

 

yup, that's what is said in the book.

 

I'm not saying their way is 'the' best way. I'm saying that 'compared to the other ways' it seems the better option. That would not undo the fact or necessity to deal with those unacceptable elements however.

 

What I mean is that considering how the Randlanders seem to be poised to go back to their familiar 'power! gimme!' type ways once the LB is done (and once our heroes are gone), the Seanchan unity and peace seems the best option (which is not a good thing. Hence my sadness and disturbed feeling).

 

It would appear that people simply do not learn from their past mistakes once a major threat is past. They jsut hop right back in to their old familiar ways of greed and powerlusting. The Real World is full of examples of that. And it looks like it will be the same in WOT. Which brings me back to the disturbing notion that the story is becoming too realistic for comfort (as I read fantasy to get away from reality, as said before).

The end doesn't justify the mean , we have seen it with mordeth , with dark rand .

My point was that even if Seanchan are for simple folk and even for channeler not a bad way of living (Damane are happy unless the discover the dirty secret of the Sul'dam) the thing is in fact that the Seanchan are the best of what was a lie and a manipulation to begin with .

But it would be disappointing if it was as simple as the light win and all go as planned . The world need fixing and improving and that what Ta'veren are all about .

The age of legend was not brought by Seanchan way , so i think the disturbing vision Of Aviendha is a failure of the Light side

[sdboka]

Hi, I just want to clarify something about the BT scenes.

 

There was a part in the book where Rand asked Naeff to inspect what was going on with the tower before they do something about it right? Then made a weave similar to Mask of Mirrors (implied). Then one of the BT scene gave us the point of views of Androl and his friends talking about Mezar with a weird smile (or at least there was a wrongness in his smile).

 

Naeff = Mezar right?

 

Sorry if this has been discussed in the earlier pages. And thank you for answering :)

[Ashaman Eric]

Actually, it's obvious that the privilege has been granted to Demandred (TGS prologue).

 

So where is Demandred? Seanchan? Shara? He states that his rule is secure and that he's gathering for war. What's left to rule?

[sdboka]

In regards to the prophecies of the shadow..I think mainly it boils down to who's prophecies will be fulfilled and who's won't be. So in order for the PoS to be fufilled perrin must die..but if he doessnnnttt than perhaps the PoD will be fulfilled without that. Beacuse in one the Dragon prevails and the shadow is banished and in the other the shadow prevails and all the world is basically screwed! Pretty sure I worded some of this wrong..but hopefully you guys catch my drift. :)

 

I doubt Prophecies works that way. I am bound to think that all of the prophecies will be fulfilled one way or another. It is only Min's viewings whom I think is subject to change because Min's viewing has a direct relation with the pattern. Disrupt the pattern and it could disrupt the viewing. But Fortellings and Prophecies are not related or bound to the Pattern whatsoever. Whatever is written or said will be fulfilled

[sdboka]

Actually, it's obvious that the privilege has been granted to Demandred (TGS prologue).

 

So where is Demandred? Seanchan? Shara? He states that his rule is secure and that he's gathering for war. What's left to rule?

 

The entire world

[zshadez]

Hi, I just want to clarify something about the BT scenes.

 

There was a part in the book where Rand asked Naeff to inspect what was going on with the tower before they do something about it right? Then made a weave similar to Mask of Mirrors (implied). Then one of the BT scene gave us the point of views of Androl and his friends talking about Mezar with a weird smile (or at least there was a wrongness in his smile).

 

Naeff = Mezar right?

 

Sorry if this has been discussed in the earlier pages. And thank you for answering :)

 

Mezar and many others in the BT seem to have been victims of the 13x13 trick, Naeff has yet to appear in the BT scenes we've been shown.