Chapter 1 "Apples First"

[b3arz3rg3r]

Egwene grew up in a town where it is normal for women to consider all men stupid. Just look at all those 'Women's business' in the women's circle. It's the women that actually decide, and guide, and whatever. That's the background from where Egwene grew up in. So it's normal for her to keep on wanting to do this, especially with Rand, male channeler and all.

 

If for your whole youth you've grown up with the fact women need to guide men, and you end up leading the one institution that transformed that into a Higher Art, it's quite natural for you to keep on doing that with a vengeance. :)

 

It would be fun to see how Egwene will cope with the Asha'man and the technological advance which is about to happen over the coming century or two. Not only is it inevitable that the male channellers will hold as much power in the world as the female ones do. Perhaps even more seeing how the females are fractured into various groups and the men might end up unified, but the technological progress especially the use of gunpowder will directly threaten the powerbase of each channeller. Afterall right now a large part of the respect Aes Sedai have is based on fear of their abilities. And the existence firearms would do a large part in equalizing the individual power of an Aes Sedai and regular people and that will force Aes Sedai to change how they treat the non-channelers. Aes Sedai might actually have to live up to the meaning of their name.

[78WARLOCK]

Not to get into any theory disscusions,yet,I just want to say this chapter was great.My anticipation level has risen by a factor of 10!! Can't wait for the whole thing.I think the "NEW" rand will be awsome.

[Scraps]

Hmmm... Everybody says they're excited to see the new Rand in this book. For some reason I don't think we will be seeing much of Rand in ToM especially since we have to catch up with Mat and Perrin's timelines and it's been stated that there will be many external Point of Views POV in regards to the effects on the world.

[Cyf]

I have to agree with what someone posted above. This has nothing to do with Rand's mindset, it was going on before he became like this in the past two books. She was hugely angry with him all the way back in tFoH because Moiraine wasn't ordering him around and was doing as he asked instead.

 

And while it's true that Jordan basically shaped a society that's in a reverse of what ours was a few hundred years ago (at least in some ways), that doesn't make it right. It explains it -- it doesn't /excuse/ it. You'd think by now she'd realize Rand's the Dragon Reborn, not her. :)

[Auld Manriva]

Egwene has been trying to steer Rand since the very beginning and she hasn't been even close to Rand in ages, long before he showed any sociopathic tendencies. So that business of trying to guide a mentally disturbed friend out of concern for the world is a laughable argument. Fact of the matter is Egwene has always had a domineering personality, she has a drive to be in control.

 

It's not a laughable argument at all. That you choose to put it that way here borders on ill manners, but with the anonymity of the internet I suppose it's to be expected.

 

Domineering and being the Big Dog are two distinctly different things. Those who lead find out real quick that if you aren't dominant you lead nothing but rabble which might jump up and bite you in the arse. Did she ask to be Amyrlin, campaign for it? No she did not. Did she find she had an affinity for the job and found those who followed her willingly? Yes she did. Can she out brow beat the brow beaters? Most definitely.

 

Egwene is not domineering. She wants to KNOW .. and Now, so she is however, impatient. She's learned a bit of patience with her time with the Wise Ones. But she still does not suffer fools gladly. She has the ability and she will take charge if someone else she considers competent does not. She see's it as duty, not as her due.

 

Take another look at these cultures. Many are matriarchal and have Had to be. Egwene as said before comes from and is basically genetically imprinted to behave in that fashion. Prophecy tells them all that the Dragon must be guided, led, manouvered ... whatever, into doing what must be done to win the Last Battle, then neutralized before he can destroy the world. Why, for Pete's sake would a rational person believe the Dragon did not need to be guided? Three thousand years of belief tells you that you must. WE know thats wrong headed, THEY do not.

 

I beg your pardon, but Eggy and Nyn BOTH have been waiting and looking and seeing signs of whack behaviour outta Rand since he stumbled outta the woods into the Green Mans clearing. She noted changes in him before he got kidnapped and distinctly noted things After that incident.

 

This meeting between her and Rand will not be a clash of Titans. Not to my mind. Oh, it'll get breezy, but there won't be a Gale, much less a Hurricane.

[Duskfire]

Things Rand can say that could make Egwene angry. That they need to break the seals on the prison of the Darn One. That she needs to be more understanding of Gawyn.That he's going to marry 3 women .

 

I doubt any of those would really make her that angry.

 

Most likely its to do with the Seanchan. She absolutely loathes them. Rand basically telling her to leave them alone, that an alliance needs to be formed, would make her extremely angry. Look at how she acts in the attack on the Whitetower; she was in like a rage. An alliance with them to her would be like Rand making an alliance with the Dark One.

[johnnyrocket]

I'm gonna be honest, if my entire harvest dies in one night and then regrows before my eyes, I'm probably gonna be a little wary about picking those apples. I'm thinking I'm gonna make the weirdo who suddenly appears out of the wilderness eat a couple of them first, just in case.

[NetSlider]

U guys think that Rand will leave WT on Bella? Would be full circle indeed.

[Frostmuse]

Can we call the apple trees blooming twice one of the "impossible things" Rand was supposed to do according to Nicola's foretelling?

[metaphor]

Things Rand can say that could make Egwene angry. That they need to break the seals on the prison of the Darn One. That she needs to be more understanding of Gawyn.That he's going to marry 3 women .

 

I doubt any of those would really make her that angry.

 

Most likely its to do with the Seanchan. She absolutely loathes them. Rand basically telling her to leave them alone, that an alliance needs to be formed, would make her extremely angry. Look at how she acts in the attack on the Whitetower; she was in like a rage. An alliance with them to her would be like Rand making an alliance with the Dark One.

 

 

Rand said it's something that she most likely would not like. We are assuming that it's also the thing that will make her angry, but really, she has enough reasons already to be angry at him. What he says may add to the fuel, but it won't be the only reason for her anger.

 

 

 

Can we call the apple trees blooming twice one of the "impossible things" Rand was supposed to do according to Nicola's foretelling?

 

Perhaps the instantaneous growth of the apples could count as one of the 9 impossible things.

[Pandemonium]

Anyone else think that this chapter reaffirms the huge role that the Tinkers will have?

 

Clearly the DO's touch rots and corrupts the natural world. One of Rand's new roles is to counter the DO's touch, but he can't be everywhere at once. He is going to need help and I think the Tinkers are going to fill this role. The Aiel may also help-- some have theorized that Aviendha might find crucial information in Rhuidean to reunite the ancient Aiel factions. It should be interesting to see what happens, but the Tinkers aren't just weak pacifists-- they have a role to play. Many of the Aiel suffering from the bleakness might finally have a purpose again in their lives.

 

One other intersting point: Loial preserved the Green Man's life as a tree. Rand knows about this tree and could easily make it bear fruit again. Could we be seeing another Green Man? That could be another huge weapon in Rand's arsenal against the DO's taint.

 

One last point is that appears that the DO has killed various Tinker caravans. I don't think the DO likes Tinkers very much. It will be interesting to find out what Alviarin was doing in Tremalking-- did it have something to do with the Ayamar?

[Stevros]

I'm gonna be honest, if my entire harvest dies in one night and then regrows before my eyes, I'm probably gonna be a little wary about picking those apples. I'm thinking I'm gonna make the weirdo who suddenly appears out of the wilderness eat a couple of them first, just in case.

 

 

Even when you know that weirdo has the power to destroy thee world. I think if it was me I'd do what I was told.

[Talir1013]

Hello all--this is my first substantive post on this site, though i've been reading and obsessing over the series for 16 years. Good to join the conversation.

 

When i read the chapter, i thought the 'her' Rand would visit was Elayne. His revelation in TGS was about love, and he had been ignoring her. But the earlier posts in the thread have me willing to believe he is heading to Tar Valon.

 

If so, we all know that the much-anticipated confrontation with Egwene is coming. But my question is different: who does RAND think he's going to see? Rand doesn't know that Egwene is Amyrlin. Does he even know if Egwene (who he thinks is Accepted, i believe) is in Tar Valon? The end result might be a meeting with Egwene, but I'm not convinced that it's Egwene Rand intends to go see. If Rand believes that Elaida is still Amyrlin (a reasonable assumption), then ELAIDA is the 'she' he refers to. I can't imagine anything he says to her will be pleasant (which fits his thoughts) but it would also show a pretty tremendous growth in character for Rand to willingly face the woman who put him in the box.

 

Does Egwene fit the 'she' if we go by what Rand knows--ie, that she's an Accepted who may or may not be in Tar Valon? If not, is it the 'Amyrlin' that Rand is thinking of, who he thinks is Elaida but turns out to be Egwene?' Is there someone else in Tar Valon who could count as 'she'? Or is the walking bit ENTIRELY coincidental, and Rand is really heading to Elayne or Cadsuane or Nyneave or someone else?

[Random Man]

Hello all--this is my first substantive post on this site, though i've been reading and obsessing over the series for 16 years. Good to join the conversation.

 

When i read the chapter, i thought the 'her' Rand would visit was Elayne. His revelation in TGS was about love, and he had been ignoring her. But the earlier posts in the thread have me willing to believe he is heading to Tar Valon.

 

If so, we all know that the much-anticipated confrontation with Egwene is coming. But my question is different: who does RAND think he's going to see? Rand doesn't know that Egwene is Amyrlin. Does he even know if Egwene (who he thinks is Accepted, i believe) is in Tar Valon? The end result might be a meeting with Egwene, but I'm not convinced that it's Egwene Rand intends to go see. If Rand believes that Elaida is still Amyrlin (a reasonable assumption), then ELAIDA is the 'she' he refers to. I can't imagine anything he says to her will be pleasant (which fits his thoughts) but it would also show a pretty tremendous growth in character for Rand to willingly face the woman who put him in the box.

 

Does Egwene fit the 'she' if we go by what Rand knows--ie, that she's an Accepted who may or may not be in Tar Valon? If not, is it the 'Amyrlin' that Rand is thinking of, who he thinks is Elaida but turns out to be Egwene?' Is there someone else in Tar Valon who could count as 'she'? Or is the walking bit ENTIRELY coincidental, and Rand is really heading to Elayne or Cadsuane or Nyneave or someone else?

Rand knows that Egwene is the Amyrlin among the rebel faction -- he must consider her the Amyrlin to some extent even if he doesn't know Elaida has been deposed, because he had the Asha'man approach the rebel Hall with the deal to bond men who could channel. And last he knew she was camped outside Tar Valon.

[The Fisher King]

You know, all this talk about how Aes Sedai and Ashaman are going to have to learn to coexist and work together, not only for the Last Battle, but for the future as well (assuming there is one after TG) has me thinking. We know old ways are being left behind and new alliances forged...I think I can see a day after TG (again assuming the good guys win) where there is NO White Tower anymore as well as there being no Black Tower anymore.

 

And I mean that in a literal sense as well. I have a Post-TG vision of Ashaman and Aes Sedai exisiting on/in something similar to like......oh, I don't know - kinda the equivelant of a Co-Ed College Campus of sorts. Maybe a ''One Tower For All'' harmonious and unified kind of deal.

 

Just a thought. Probably dreaming, lol.

 

 

 

Fish

[Jimmy]

I thought about it being elayne also. Cant remember why it came to mind about be first. But arguments could be made for her and egweene. Although if cadsuane was in the area, arguments could be made for her as well. But I think it's likely egweene since she is closed then elayne. Can't imagine rand walking from dragonmount to caemlyn

[Cyf]

And I mean that in a literal sense as well. I have a Post-TG vision of Ashaman and Aes Sedai exisiting on/in something similar to like......oh, I don't know - kinda the equivelant of a Co-Ed College Campus of sorts. Maybe a ''One Tower For All'' harmonious and unified kind of deal.

 

I doubt it. I really can't see Egwene wanting that. She /loves/ being in charge and being Amyrlin. Unless the men allowed her to stay in charge, I doubt it'll be all harmonious and such. To be fair, I don't really see Logain, the most probable male counterpart, wanting to let go either.

[benny the ball]

first things first peeps here's the idea; could Rand be using the OP?

 

after all we only see the flowers blooming and regrowing through the eyes of some one who lacks the ability to touch the OP. for all we know he could just be walking about and tying weaves here, their and everywhere. the DO's touch does seem to be tainting wards and junk after all and it would all look the same from Almen's point of view, no?

 

Oh yeah Fish, isn't the popular theory going about that Elaida palce will be the new staging ground for the AM in the not too distant future. (probably when the BT gets rent in flame)

[The Fisher King]

And I mean that in a literal sense as well. I have a Post-TG vision of Ashaman and Aes Sedai exisiting on/in something similar to like......oh, I don't know - kinda the equivelant of a Co-Ed College Campus of sorts. Maybe a ''One Tower For All'' harmonious and unified kind of deal.

 

I doubt it. I really can't see Egwene wanting that. She /loves/ being in charge and being Amyrlin. Unless the men allowed her to stay in charge, I doubt it'll be all harmonious and such. To be fair, I don't really see Logain, the most probable male counterpart, wanting to let go either.

 

Burn it all, why is it always about what EGWENE wants???!

 

 

 

Fish

[Mystica]

"Hey Egwene"

"Hi Rand. How´s it going?"

"Not too bad i suppose. Scored myself three hot women, cleansed saidin and had an epiphany. I did have to kill Gawyn a minute ago though. He ran at me foaming at the mouth and tried to skewer me. What the hell was he doing here anyway?"

"Being clingy. Not that it isn´t good to see you again but what are you doing here?"

"Oh, i came here to tell you that i figured out a way to stop the Dark One"

"i like that"

"but if it works the OP will inaccessible for a couple of Ages"

"I don´t like that"

 

 

Firstly: ROFLMAO! loved that!

 

 

I think she will be angry about the bonding of aes sedai be because she assumes he gave the order to do it

Either that or he will go tell her his revelation on how to win TG and she is going to be mad about what it entails. Or she will suggest changes to want he says needs to be done, he will say no to some/all of her suggestions and she will get mad

 

 

I agree with this.

 

- LTT said the seals had to be destroyed, the women of his age didn't agree, he tried without them: disaster for male channelers.

- That scholar that called Min a pretty thing (forgot his name) also came to the conclusion the seals had to be destroyed

- Rand has a number of the seals, the White Tower (aka Egwene) has a number of the seals)

- we now know that the toughest, most fantastic works done with the One Power are done by joint cooperation between Saidin and Saidar, meaning male and female working together. LTT tried the single most important thing in all of history with only Saidin. Rand knows it hàs to be done with both. Just like the cleansing of the taint, but on an even much larger scale. meaning: every single Aes Sedai and Ashaman working together in the biggest circle humanly possible with Rand controlling the flows.

 

--> Egwene won't like this for a number of reasons:

- she won't like the idea of destroying the seals to begin with (Amyrlin = Keeper of the Seals, remember?)

- she won't like that Rand controlls the flows if they do it (though she probably will eventually concede to that, him being who he is after all).

 

--> He will know the Amyrlin's anger:

- is a different and unrelated issue to the above

- she's already shown anger for the bonding of Aes Sedai by Ashaman and has already spoken the words that 'though he may not have ordered it, he is still responsible for it, being the leader of the Ashaman'.

- they will get into a back and forth argument (him accusing the AS of all the things they've done in turn)

- they'll come to a mutual understanding, perhaps not going so far as to agree to their mutual responsibility in what happened, but grudgingly accepting the situation as it is and moving on to more important matters: the destruction of the seals and the re-sealing of the bore (properly this time).

 

 

 

Consequence for Rand's ultra powers: he's going to die. His life force being the energy that will 'heal' the land, thus him becoming the land. Probably in the process of re-sealing the bore, channeling that much power has to have some effect no matter how strong one is.

 

 

As has been said, the Dark One is the counterpart of the Creator. No mortal, Ta'vere/Dragon Reborn or otherwise could ever 'slay' him. The best chance they have is to do what the Creator himself did (which is already a miracle in it's own right for any mortal to accomplish): lock him away in his prison for good. If the Dark One could be slain (safely), the Creator wouldn't have bothered imprisoning him to begin with. He'd have gotten rid of him all together himself.

 

The hole in the bore was made by humans and thus must be fixed by humans. Properly fixed.

 

 

that's my theory for now :)

[Jimmy]

The bt being rent in flames could also be the logain bs taim battle

[Ashaman Kovan]

The bt being rent in flames could also be the logain bs taim battle

 

I think Luckers idea that Pevara and Co will find out Taim is a DF and out him, thus causing the BT to be rent in blood and fire seems more likely at this point.

[Auld Manriva]

I agree with you Mysty on most of what you're saying. I'm still not sold on the point of Rand actually dying and staying dead and gone. But I'm juggling the idea more these days. He's the single person who possesses knowledge that is needed to jump start them out of the same rut the Third Age has been in for nearly 3 thousand years. BUT if he does survive and stays as he is now, with his memories intact and OP skills; does he end up making the 4TH Age a re-hash of the 2ND? Would there really BE a new age if The Dragon survives? I think there would be actually and it'd be a melding of the two.

 

Back to the issue. It seems plain to me Rand used the OP on the orchard and not just his "Ta'veren-ness", it's Both. It's balance. Remember, Mo' used the OP to hold back effects from the DO in the Blight, albeit in a much lesser fashion by using Saidar. Rand seems to be doing much the same thing but, considering who and what he is, much more powerfully. The effect will still dissipate, without his presence, because the DO is much closer to the world at hand.

 

The WT and the BT are both anachronisms now, no matter if Egwene likes it, the rest of the AS, Rand, Logain or whatever Ashaman survive. Separation is no longer going to be useful. It's all going to change. Thats what The Dragon does.

[Aquarius]

A few pages back on this post, someone made an interresting comment on Rand & the Fisher King in Shar'ah, on maybe we had just seen the Fisher King change hands.

 

But there's something more :

When Moridin describes the game and the power of the King, he says something like "agile in attack, weak in defence when on black tiles, and when on white tiles, strong in defence but slow and weak in attack.

 

I might remember the black/white thing the wrong way, but, do you think there might be something here ? How Rand was on all out attack mode before, and now he might calm down a bit and look to defend Randland against evil ?

[Aquarius]

A few pages back on this post, someone made an interresting comment on Rand & the Fisher King in Shar'ah, on maybe we had just seen the Fisher King change hands.

 

But there's something more :

When Moridin describes the game and the power of the King, he says something like "agile in attack, weak in defence when on black tiles, and when on white tiles, strong in defence but slow and weak in attack.

 

I might remember the black/white thing the wrong way, but, do you think there might be something here ? How Rand was on all out attack mode before, and now he might calm down a bit and look to defend Randland against evil ?

Got it: PoD prologue:

on a white square, weak in attack yet agile and far-ranging in escape; on black, strong in attack but slow and vulnerable.