Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Maleshub]

There are two different orders you're referring to. The first, which is general knowledge by now, is the order to send 50 sisters to raid the BT. The second, secret, one is to Gentle every male channeler on site without a trial or being brought back to the Tower. I don't think many know about that order, although Tsutama might well know.

 

Regardless of the specific order, Toveine's expedition was to put an end to the BT. That is bigger that the "how." Destroying the place with B-52's or Cruise Missiles makes no difference really ... The end result is the same from the Ashaman perspective.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Theodril

[XoMeltdownoX]

There are two different orders you're referring to. The first, which is general knowledge by now, is the order to send 50 sisters to raid the BT. The second, secret, one is to Gentle every male channeler on site without a trial or being brought back to the Tower. I don't think many know about that order, although Tsutama might well know.

It is the second order I am referring to. Where they to be hanged as well? I cannot remember.

[Maleshub]

Winter's Heart: Snow (prologue)

 

Elaida’s order to gentle every man found here and then hang them on the spot, without the trial in Tar Valon required by Tower law.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Theodril

[Guest Drakix]

So, I searched for this everywhere and was unable to find it, but I had a thought earlier.

 

A few months after MoL is out, does anyone think TOR or Brandon will release the notes RJ left behind? Would be really interesting to look at, and I'd easily pay quite a bit to get a copy of em.

[Durinax]

So, I searched for this everywhere and was unable to find it, but I had a thought earlier.

 

A few months after MoL is out, does anyone think TOR or Brandon will release the notes RJ left behind? Would be really interesting to look at, and I'd easily pay quite a bit to get a copy of em.

I think once MoL is out they plan do to a full encyclopedia type deal

[Suttree]

Winter's Heart: Snow (prologue)

 

Elaida’s order to gentle every man found here and then hang them on the spot, without the trial in Tar Valon required by Tower law.

 

This is not known as common knowledge by the AS. Further one must keep in mind Saidin was not cleansed yet. It is absolutely wrong but one must look at the reality of the situation.

 

As for the Ashaman bond RJ explained the necessity of the "extra bit" compulsion aspect even if some like Logain thought it was wrong.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Suttree

[TNine]

Okay, here's one from a plot perspective: What was the point of the "Ajah leader conspiracy"? We get some early hints at something fishy, and both Saerine and Siuan pick up on it. It's made to be a pretty big deal, but by the time we see the intent of it they are already admitting it failed. Then we have Egwene raised and reconciliation. Why is that plotline even there? As far as i can tell, it affects almost nothing.

[Sid]

Okay, here's one from a plot perspective: What was the point of the "Ajah leader conspiracy"? We get some early hints at something fishy, and both Saerine and Siuan pick up on it. It's made to be a pretty big deal, but by the time we see the intent of it they are already admitting it failed. Then we have Egwene raised and reconciliation. Why is that plotline even there? As far as i can tell, it affects almost nothing.

The mystery of the too-young sisters was in the story because RJ knew the White Tower was going to be united with one group of sitters instead of two, and this was there to foreshadow how it might be accomplished smoothly. It also gave people something to think on, with all the undercurrents of politics that make the story more fleshed out. People that ran the WoT FAQ actually had it largely solved already after Crossroads of Twilight came out, including how Romanda threw a bit of a monkey wrench into the scheme by unexpectedly coming out of retirement. It lent a little credence to the fact that Aes Sedai were not utter fools, even though things didn't work out the way they hoped. The Ajah Heads came up with a contingency plan when an event that hadn't happened before came about, and under normal circumstances would have worked fine. And even so it did still smooth the way for consolidation of the two factions in the Hall of the Tower. The mystery was rather deftly woven into the story until the 'payoff/reveal' in TGS fell somewhat flat.

[yoniy0]

Regardless of the specific order, Toveine's expedition was to put an end to the BT. That is bigger that the "how." Destroying the place with B-52's or Cruise Missiles makes no difference really ... The end result is the same from the Ashaman perspective.

Your disagreement isn't with me (well, not just), it's with Logain, Toveine and Gabrelle:

“He burned it, Toveine. After reading the contents. He seemed to think he had done us a favor.”

The hand eased, and Toveine could breathe again. “Elaida’s order was among my papers.” She cleared her throat to rid herself of hoarseness. Elaida’s order to gentle every man found her and then hang them on the spot, without the trial in Tar Valon required by Tower law. “She imposed harsh conditions, and these men would have reacted harshly, if they knew.” In spite of the heat from the stove, she shivered. That single paper could have gotten them all stilled and hanged. “Why would he do us favors?”

“I don’t know why, Toveine. He isn’t a villain, no more than most men. It could be as simple as that.” Gabrelle set a plate of crusted rolls and another with white cheese on the table. “Or it could be that this bond is like the Warder bond in more ways than we know. Maybe he just did not want to experience the two of us executed.” Toveine’s stomach rumbled, but she picked up a roll as if she did not care for more than a nibble.

[Yosarian]

Also, I would think that if a man who can channel bonds a woman who can channel as his warder, and then he goes insane, she would probably go insane as well.

[BFG]

Also, I would think that if a man who can channel bonds a woman who can channel as his warder, and then he goes insane, she would probably go insane as well.

 

I was about to say that it doesn't work in reverse as neither Alanna, Min, Elayne or Avi are insane. But their's no evidence to suggest that any of them are crazier as a result of the bond.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Also, I would think that if a man who can channel bonds a woman who can channel as his warder, and then he goes insane, she would probably go insane as well.

 

I was about to say that it doesn't work in reverse as neither Alanna, Min, Elayne or Avi are insane. But their's no evidence to suggest that any of them are crazier as a result of the bond.

 

Well Elayne and Alanna certainly have been a bit erratic, but that is a bit of Elayne being pregnant. Still, might be a cover.

 

In reality though, I don't think that they would go insane.

[Yosarian]

Also, I would think that if a man who can channel bonds a woman who can channel as his warder, and then he goes insane, she would probably go insane as well.

 

I was about to say that it doesn't work in reverse as neither Alanna, Min, Elayne or Avi are insane. But their's no evidence to suggest that any of them are crazier as a result of the bond.

 

The way the bond usually works, if the Aes Sedi dies, the warder dies, but if the warder dies, the aes sedi just feels sad for a while. I would guess being bonded to a male that can channel and will slowly go insane is probably much more dangerous then bonding one.

 

I think they did mention that if you were linked to a male channeling tainted Sadin with the male version of the a'dam, that the taint would affect you as well.

[Hagazussa]

Regardless of the specific order, Toveine's expedition was to put an end to the BT. That is bigger that the "how." Destroying the place with B-52's or Cruise Missiles makes no difference really ... The end result is the same from the Ashaman perspective.

 

It is more like the difference between someone having orders to raid your camp and kill everyone there and someone having orders to raid you camp do the most terrible and painful and feared thing imaginable to everyone and then killing them, both options might invoke some anger but I have a feeling that the second option might just get tempers boiling just a little bit more.

 

Now as for why Aes Sedai find being bonded against their will an atrocity, well look at it, first off all it is slavery, it is in fact more than slavery it is a form of mind rape, also you have the danger that is already mentioned that most Asha'man do not have the best life expectancy and that means anyone bonded to them do not have the best life expectancy either. Also remember that from most of the bonded Aes Sedai's perspective they have done nothing to deserve being bonded against their will, they think of themselves as heroes protecting the world against dangerous male channelers. Sure I when I read the books think ooh yes what a deserved fate, but the characters in the book they think of themselves as victims and nothing else.

[Finnssss22]

Also, I would think that if a man who can channel bonds a woman who can channel as his warder, and then he goes insane, she would probably go insane as well.

 

I was about to say that it doesn't work in reverse as neither Alanna, Min, Elayne or Avi are insane. But their's no evidence to suggest that any of them are crazier as a result of the bond.

 

The way the bond usually works, if the Aes Sedi dies, the warder dies, but if the warder dies, the aes sedi just feels sad for a while. I would guess being bonded to a male that can channel and will slowly go insane is probably much more dangerous then bonding one.

 

I think they did mention that if you were linked to a male channeling tainted Sadin with the male version of the a'dam, that the taint would affect you as well.

 

Warders don't automatically die when their AS dies. It's that they usually go into a suicidal rage trying to avenge their AS's death.

It's already been proven that they don't just die and not only that but can also go on to be a Warder for another AS.

It's the whole reason that Moiriane passed Lan's bond onto Myrelle. Myrelle has had success in keeping Warders that lost their AS alive. 2 of her 3 Warders in fact.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Finnssss

[BFG]

Also, I would think that if a man who can channel bonds a woman who can channel as his warder, and then he goes insane, she would probably go insane as well.

 

I was about to say that it doesn't work in reverse as neither Alanna, Min, Elayne or Avi are insane. But their's no evidence to suggest that any of them are crazier as a result of the bond.

 

The way the bond usually works, if the Aes Sedi dies, the warder dies, but if the warder dies, the aes sedi just feels sad for a while. I would guess being bonded to a male that can channel and will slowly go insane is probably much more dangerous then bonding one.

 

I think they did mention that if you were linked to a male channeling tainted Sadin with the male version of the a'dam, that the taint would affect you as well.

 

EDIT my previous post - [/sarcasm]

 

Good point about the differences in the bond.

 

I don't remember them saying the taint affects the leash holders (not to say it's not said), but it is mentioned that after time the leash holders would need the leashed channeler to release them as much as the other way round.

[Maleshub]

Suttree, I was only providing a quote for Xo Meltdown oX. Not arguing the issue or giving an opinion one way or another on the complexity of the issue. It was a mess, and I guess part of the chaos the DO wanted in the world. And it was part of Elaida's Fain-induced narcissism.

 

Regardless of the specific order, Toveine's expedition was to put an end to the BT. That is bigger that the "how." Destroying the place with B-52's or Cruise Missiles makes no difference really ... The end result is the same from the Ashaman perspective.

Your disagreement isn't with me (well, not just), it's with Logain, Toveine and Gabrelle:

“He burned it, Toveine. After reading the contents. He seemed to think he had done us a favor.”

The hand eased, and Toveine could breathe again. “Elaida’s order was among my papers.” She cleared her throat to rid herself of hoarseness. Elaida’s order to gentle every man found her and then hang them on the spot, without the trial in Tar Valon required by Tower law. “She imposed harsh conditions, and these men would have reacted harshly, if they knew.” In spite of the heat from the stove, she shivered. That single paper could have gotten them all stilled and hanged. “Why would he do us favors?”

“I don’t know why, Toveine. He isn’t a villain, no more than most men. It could be as simple as that.” Gabrelle set a plate of crusted rolls and another with white cheese on the table. “Or it could be that this bond is like the Warder bond in more ways than we know. Maybe he just did not want to experience the two of us executed.” Toveine’s stomach rumbled, but she picked up a roll as if she did not care for more than a nibble.

 

I don't disagree, yoniy0! It is just that when the order to "resolve" the BT issue is issued, the details (to me) seem to be of secondary importance. Logain burned the letter to keep Taim from doing anything drastic to Toveine and other bonded AS. And it was also to protect Logain's faction; since Taim banned his faction from bonding any AS.

 

Regardless of the specific order, Toveine's expedition was to put an end to the BT. That is bigger that the "how." Destroying the place with B-52's or Cruise Missiles makes no difference really ... The end result is the same from the Ashaman perspective.

 

It is more like the difference between someone having orders to raid your camp and kill everyone there and someone having orders to raid you camp do the most terrible and painful and feared thing imaginable to everyone and then killing them, both options might invoke some anger but I have a feeling that the second option might just get tempers boiling just a little bit more.

 

Now as for why Aes Sedai find being bonded against their will an atrocity, well look at it, first off all it is slavery, it is in fact more than slavery it is a form of mind rape, also you have the danger that is already mentioned that most Asha'man do not have the best life expectancy and that means anyone bonded to them do not have the best life expectancy either. Also remember that from most of the bonded Aes Sedai's perspective they have done nothing to deserve being bonded against their will, they think of themselves as heroes protecting the world against dangerous male channelers. Sure I when I read the books think ooh yes what a deserved fate, but the characters in the book they think of themselves as victims and nothing else.

 

The AS were bonded against their will. And in the abstract that is an atrocity. But it was better than killing them. Granted that Taim could have captured them "Dumai Wells style" and delivered them to the WO's; but that would have given Rand another problem to deal with.

 

I do not think Taim teaching the weave to Ashaman is innocent. Taim was part of the Shadow's effort to destroy the WT and cause an irreconcilable split between the WT and Rand. Enslaving 51 AS would have achieved that objective; but Elaida putting her power seat ahead of the WT blunted the WT reaction to that incident.

[Suttree]

I do not think Taim teaching the weave to Ashaman is innocent. Taim was part of the Shadow's effort to destroy the WT and cause an irreconcilable split between the WT and Rand.

 

The bond weave? That wasn't Taim. Some Ashaman started experimenting with bonding on their wives and somehow tweaked it to discover the compulsion aspect. Per RJ they know more than AS(who never experimented) on the topic...

Interview: Jan 28th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Lady Voldemort (Paraphrased)

Lady Voldemort

 

Is it possible for an Aes Sedai to bond someone Asha'man style?

Robert Jordan

 

Yes, if they learned the weaves. The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai. Some guy figured out how to bond their wives, and then they started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew.

[TristanWebb]

The first guy who found out the extra bit must of had a real bitch of a wife to want it.

[Durinax]

The first guy who found out the extra bit must of had a real bitch of a wife to want it.

well most guys seem to get henpecked in the series so it isn't much of a stretch

[Whizbang]

I believe it was implied that the AM bond to wife thing was actually a way for the wife to know the husband was safe while out recruiting, fighting for the DR, etc. Or at least the scene where the bond was explained to Rand was put that way. Something about an AM stating that his wife was having some ache or another. Rand asked how he knew, and the guy explained about the bond and how it allowed the wives to know the husbands were still alive and well (could be misremembering the whole thing. It has been a while since I read the books). The compulsion aspect of it was kind of an unexpected bonus. I am sure there are some who would use that part on their wives, but (hopefully) many would not. It does come in handy when capturing AS, though.

[Hagazussa]

The AS were bonded against their will. And in the abstract that is an atrocity. But it was better than killing them. Granted that Taim could have captured them "Dumai Wells style" and delivered them to the WO's; but that would have given Rand another problem to deal with.

 

I was not saying that when you have the benefit of 20 20 vision on the situation that the readers get that bonding the Aes Sedai was not the best solution, and I am not saying that bonding them is not more than a little deserved, I am saying that from their perspective it is not strange that they consider it an atrocity since they have little but their own troubles and fears to worry about and from their perspective they where doing the right thing and where then captured by the enemy and enslaved.

[EmperorAllspice]

Just wondering. I'm on book 5. Will fights between channelers in thiis series ever stop being just a race to see who can shield the other first? It's getting really repetitive and boring to read at this point. They have all these powers, and they keep using the most decisive and visually boring one.

 

Granted, this is smart from a haracter perspective, but I think making shielding as easy as it is to do was a mistake on Jordan's part.

Edited October 30, 2012 by EmperorAllspice

[yoniy0]

Just wondering. I'm on book 5. Will fights between channelers in thiis series ever stop being just a race to see who can shield the other first? It's getting really repetitive and boring to read at this point. They have all these powers, and they keep using the most decisive and visually boring one.

Tell you what. Ask again after the end of TFoH. If you still feel like you do, then you'll probably feel the same later as well (although there is more diversity, it's just not fundamentally different than the diversity that came before).

[EmperorAllspice]

Also... does Team Shadow actually put up a decent fight at the end of this book? :(