History of the Dragon?

[mellojoe]

I have read through book 12, not yet TGS.  I am in the middle of a re-read, up to TSR at this point.  Hoping to hit TGS by Christmas.  I had some basic questions regarding the History of the ages...

 

#1) How many ages have passed since the Age of Legends?

#2) How many dragons have existed in history?

#3) Will the next Age have another Dragon?  Will the Dragon Reborn then be referred to as Lews Therin or as Rand al'Thor?

 

 

[Kadere]

#1) How many ages have passed since the Age of Legends?

 

We're currently in the Age after the Age of Legends. AoL was the Second Age, we're in the Third Age.

 

#2) How many dragons have existed in history?

 

There is one Dragon, he is reborn in all 7 Ages according to the basic theory.

 

#3) Will the next Age have another Dragon?  Will the Dragon Reborn then be referred to as Lews Therin or as Rand al'Thor?

 

The Fourth Age will have another reincarnation of the Dragon who will be called whatever that person's name is. The Dragon of the Third Age will be referred to as Rand al'Thor. So that person will be considered the rebirth of Rand al'Thor. Lews Therin will likely be forgotten as time passes and legends fade to myth and myths are forgotten.

 

 

 

[loneashaman]

You have to remember that this is the last stand.  After Tarmon Gaidon, no matter who wins, there will be no more.  So that means if Rand wins, there will be no more fighting the Dark One, so no more 'The Dragon', and vise versa, the Dark One wins, no more dragon to fight him.

[Majsju]

You have to remember that this is the last stand.  After Tarmon Gaidon, no matter who wins, there will be no more.  So that means if Rand wins, there will be no more fighting the Dark One, so no more 'The Dragon', and vise versa, the Dark One wins, no more dragon to fight him.

 

There is nothing that indicates that this time is any different from any of the other 3rd Ages. Ie, the most likely scenario is that Rand will win TG by sealing the Bore properly, everything returns to "normal", eventually even the myths about the DO are forgotten, until someone accidently drills a new Bore.

[Vulgir]

Agreed, this is not the last stand, the dragon is bound to do this dance time and time again.

[Al Thor93]

You have to remember that this is the last stand.  After Tarmon Gaidon, no matter who wins, there will be no more.  So that means if Rand wins, there will be no more fighting the Dark One, so no more 'The Dragon', and vise versa, the Dark One wins, no more dragon to fight him.

 

There is nothing that indicates that this time is any different from any of the other 3rd Ages. Ie, the most likely scenario is that Rand will win TG by sealing the Bore properly, everything returns to "normal", eventually even the myths about the DO are forgotten, until someone accidently drills a new Bore.

 

True, but then wouldn't Brandon Sanderson have to write more books. The series can't go on forever(wouldn't mind if it did, but that's a lot of writing and money)

[Majsju]

You have to remember that this is the last stand.  After Tarmon Gaidon, no matter who wins, there will be no more.  So that means if Rand wins, there will be no more fighting the Dark One, so no more 'The Dragon', and vise versa, the Dark One wins, no more dragon to fight him.

 

There is nothing that indicates that this time is any different from any of the other 3rd Ages. Ie, the most likely scenario is that Rand will win TG by sealing the Bore properly, everything returns to "normal", eventually even the myths about the DO are forgotten, until someone accidently drills a new Bore.

 

True, but then wouldn't Brandon Sanderson have to write more books. The series can't go on forever(wouldn't mind if it did, but that's a lot of writing and money)

 

Uhm, what?

[humanraindelay]

I wonder if in the next age when the dragon is reborn, will that dragon have to deal with an insane Rand mumbling in hi head, or will Rand be able to rest peacfully?

[Majsju]

I wonder if in the next age when the dragon is reborn, will that dragon have to deal with an insane Rand mumbling in hi head, or will Rand be able to rest peacfully?

 

Nope. The taint plays a huge part in LTTs presence in Rands head, and next time the Dragons soul is popped out, Saidin will not be tainted.

[WWWwombat]

I wonder if in the next age when the dragon is reborn, will that dragon have to deal with an insane Rand mumbling in hi head, or will Rand be able to rest peacfully?

 

Nope. The taint plays a huge part in LTTs presence in Rands head, and next time the Dragons soul is popped out, Saidin will not be tainted.

 

Of course that doesn't rule out the poor guy going insane by normal means hehehehe.

[Mr Ares]

I wonder if in the next age when the dragon is reborn, will that dragon have to deal with an insane Rand mumbling in hi head, or will Rand be able to rest peacfully?

Nope. The taint plays a huge part in LTTs presence in Rands head, and next time the Dragons soul is popped out, Saidin will not be tainted.

Of course that doesn't rule out the poor guy going insane by normal means hehehehe.

It is a rare form of madness.

[SheaththeSword]

 

#2) How many dragons have existed in history?

 

There is one Dragon, he is reborn in all 7 Ages according to the basic theory.

 

 

Really? So there was one in the first age? Would Lewis Therin not have known about him? What was this dragon's role, as the 'Second Age Dragon' gives temporary seal to Bore, 'Third Age Dragon' fights Last Battle (supposedly has done so many times before and beat Dark One every time) and seals prison properly to allow everyone to forget him, and eventually another AoL would come about, etc.

 

Does this prompt heory that it takes from forth age (one after last battle), fifth, sixth, seventh, first, and then all the way to second to get back to an Age of Legends?

Or is the cycle shorter, with the Dragon doing the last battle + correct reseal of bore more than once in seven-age cylce?

 

Why on earth does the pattern facilitate the possibilty of it's own destruction at least every seven ages?

[Mr. Dragon]

 

Why on earth does the pattern facilitate the possibilty of it's own destruction at least every seven ages?

 

RAFO.

[Kadere]

I'll try to answer this the best that I can.

 

Really?

 

That's the basic theory that Ishamael, the books, the BWB, and Jordan all seem to validate.

 

So there was one in the first age?

 

Most likely.

 

Would Lewis Therin not have known about him?

 

Doubtful. The Dragon of the First Age would have died thousands of years before Lews Therin Telamon. But he may have and we've just lost the information about the First Age's Dragon in the Third Age.

 

What was this dragon's role, as the 'Second Age Dragon' gives temporary seal to Bore, 'Third Age Dragon' fights Last Battle (supposedly has done so many times before and beat Dark One every time) and seals prison properly to allow everyone to forget him, and eventually another AoL would come about, etc.

 

You make a number of assumptions about how the Third Age will end. And a number of assumptions in believing it would take a full 5 Ages to forget the Dark One. My best guess would be that the Dragon of the First Age discovered the True Source or was vital in that discovery.

 

Does this prompt theory that it takes from forth age (one after last battle), fifth, sixth, seventh, first, and then all the way to second to get back to an Age of Legends?

 

Obviously. The Second Age is the Age of Legends. There are 7 Ages, so it will take another 5 turns to get back to the Age of Legends as we define it.

 

Or is the cycle shorter, with the Dragon doing the last battle + correct reseal of bore more than once in seven-age cylce?

 

We're not privy to any information about other Ages besides a VERY little bit of the First (namely when it ended), the Second, and the Third. The cycle is Seven Ages long. If the bore is unsealed again in a later Age, we don't know how that works. The Dragon is reborn in all seven ages and each time must insure that the Wheel continues to turn. What he faces and the challenges he must overcome we know nothing about.

 

Why on earth does the pattern facilitate the possibilty of it's own destruction at least every seven ages?

 

It facilitates the possibility of it's own destruction in every age. It does so because Mankind is fallible. 

[SheaththeSword]

Thank you Kadere. I'm not sure i derved to look quite as bad as all that, but thanks all the same ;)

 

PS i didnt mean every single question mark to invite a response. My bad i guess.

 

 

 

Just one point. In what way does the pattern facilitate it's own destruction at least every age? The only way that (as far as i know) we are told for that to happen is the DO destroying the pattern and remaking it in his own image (paraphrase). What other methods are there? (Aside from hundreds of channelers, of just a few of the more powerful ones bathing the world in Bale Fire, i mean....)

[John Galt]

In one of the first four books I think Ishmael says to Rand, "We have fought this battle 100 times.  100 times 100 times."

 

Lews Therin, Rand Al'Thor, and a million other people are all the same man.  Has he always been called "the Dragon?"  We can't know for sure.  Time is a cycle.  First a man is born who is powerful enough, with help probably, to bore a hole in the Dark One's prison.  This is probably done on accident when trying to tap the True Source directly in large quantities.  Then, a war is fought and a man born with enough power to seal the bore is born and he does just that.  He does it, incorrectly however, and the Dark One slowly breaks free.  Finally, when the Dark One is on the verge of having the world and ending the Wheel of Time forever, a man is born with the power to seal the bore the correct way, he does that, and then comes the final Age, which is an Age of peace and prosperity.  Peace and prosperity typically spawn technological (or magical) development which leads to new discoveries that people don't quite understand which leads to dangerous experiments that... bore a hole in the DO's prison.  And thus history repeats itself.  Again and again and again and again.  People that are important to these struggles like Matt, Rand, Birgitte, Ishmael and Gaidon are recycled through the pattern Age after Age after Age after Age.  The Dragon is always the savior.  As Rand accurately deduces, the Dragon has never gone to the wrong side, as evidenced by the fact that there's still an existence.

 

There's no need for more and more stories because the next age is going to be pretty boring.  Rand is going to win.  There will be hundreds of years of peace and prosperity.  The Age of Legends has already been described in much detail.  It'd be a fun read but it's not necessary.  There's no need to rewrite about the next Third Age because it will play out much like the current one.

 

Unless, of course, RJ pulls a fast one on us and Rand actually DOES manage to slay the DO, but I highly doubt that will happen, and even wonder if that wouldn't end existence anyway.

[forzainternl]

#1) How many ages have passed since the Age of Legends?

 

We're currently in the Age after the Age of Legends. AoL was the Second Age, we're in the Third Age.

 

#2) How many dragons have existed in history?

 

There is one Dragon, he is reborn in all 7 Ages according to the basic theory.

 

How do you know there are 7 ages... from an RJ interview?

[Kadere]

Thank you Kadere. I'm not sure i derved to look quite as bad as all that, but thanks all the same ;)

 

PS i didnt mean every single question mark to invite a response. My bad i guess.

 

Sorry, just didn't want to leave any question unanswered.

 

Just one point. In what way does the pattern facilitate it's own destruction at least every age? The only way that (as far as i know) we are told for that to happen is the DO destroying the pattern and remaking it in his own image (paraphrase). What other methods are there? (Aside from hundreds of channelers, of just a few of the more powerful ones bathing the world in Bale Fire, i mean....)

 

Again we're not given any of this information, but you can hazard some guesses. For instance, if (as many readers assume and Thom's stories seem to verify) we are currently living in the First Age ourselves, then the Pattern has almost lead to destruction numerous times. WWII and the Cold War being excellent examples. Mankind killing itself or destroying the world on our own. Other example might be an asteroid, or maybe just another big event akin to the discovery of the True Source.

 

Namely the Pattern isn't a set course. Every time an Age comes about the people in that Age can make different decisions. Rand COULD die, or he COULD fail. It's not SET that he succeeds. A perfect example of this is when Rand uses the Portal Stones and sees all of the different lives he COULD have lived. When the Wheel makes Ta'veren it has no control over how that Ta'veren uses his/her powers. The Wheel attempts to self-regulate but it's a machine, more or less, and therefore can crash if the user doesn't handle it properly.

 

Therefore, once an Age, the Pattern, or perhaps the Creator, gives us the Dragon, and it's the Dragon's duty to see that we reach the next age correctly. Whether that's in facing a Nae'blis every Age as Ishamael claims, or keeping us from our own destruction, or finding what is key to the next Age's progress, we don't really know cause it could be all or none of those.

 

In the next turn of the Wheel Lews Therin will have to reseal the Bore yet again. In the last turning he failed, and Saidin was tainted. Next time he'll have the chance to keep that from happening, but he may fail again. We don't know. But the Wheel and the Pattern aren't sentient enough to control Lews's actions. He still maintains a free will.

 

The same is true in every Age with every reincarnation of the Dragon. Will he succeed, or fail? It's up to him. But problems will arise and he'll  have to see us through it, or doom us to the Dark One.

 

#1) How many ages have passed since the Age of Legends?

 

We're currently in the Age after the Age of Legends. AoL was the Second Age, we're in the Third Age.

 

#2) How many dragons have existed in history?

 

There is one Dragon, he is reborn in all 7 Ages according to the basic theory.

 

How do you know there are 7 ages... from an RJ interview?

 

It's in the Glossary.

 

"Time is a wheel with seven spokes, each spoke an Age. As the Wheel turns, the Ages come and go, each leaving memories that fade to legend, then to myth, and are forgotten by the time that Age comes again. The Pattern of an Age is slightly different each time an Age comes, and each time it is subject to greater change."

[Agitel]

One of the Forsaken in the earlier books comments/thinks on never having heard of a soul being reborn for a specific purpose, so if the Dragon was around in the First Age any historical remembrance of him is lost by the end of the Second, at least to most. And the surviving Forsaken were intelligent people.

 

However, some memory seems to have been retained, if not historically. The game of sha'rah seems to point to this eternal conflict, and more than likely the one that played out in the First Age. Moridin himself seems to come to this conclusion at the end. I point towards the prologue of The Path of Daggers.

 

His real attention was on the game laid out before him on the table, thirty-three red pieces and thirty-three green arrayed across a playing surface of thirteen squares by thirteen. A re-creation of the early stages of a famous game. The most important piece, the Fisher, black-and-white like the playing surface, still waited in its starting place on the central square. A complex game, sha'rah, ancient long before the War of power. Sha'rah, tcheran, and no'ri, the game now called simply "stones," each had adherents who claimed it encompassed all the subtleties of life, but Moridin had always favored sha'rah. Only nine people living even remembered the game. He had been a master of it. Much more complex than tcheran or no'ri. The first object was capture of the Fisher. Only then did the game truly begin.

 

A servant approached, a slim graceful young man clad all in white, impossibly handsome, bowing as he presented a crystal goblet on a silver tray. He smiled, but it did not touch his black eyes, eyes more lifeless than simply dead. Most men would have felt uncomfortable having that gaze on them. Moridin merely took the goblet and motioned the servant away. The vintners of this time produced some excellent wines. He did not drink, though. The Fisher held his attention, baiting him. Several pieces had varying moves, but only the Fisher's attributes altered according to where it stood; on a white square, weak in attack yet agile and far-ranging in escape; on black, strong in attack but slow and vulnerable. When masters played, the Fisher changed sides many times before the end. The green-and-red goal-row that surrounded the playing surface could be threatened by any piece, but only the Fisher could move onto it. Not that he was safe, even there; the Fisher was never safe. When the Fisher was yours, you tried to move him to a square of your color behind your opponent's end of the board. That was victory, the easiest way, but not the only one. When your opponent held the Fisher, you attempted to leave him no choice for the Fisher but to move onto your color. Anywhere at all along the goal-row would do; holding the Fisher could be more dangerous than not. Of course, there was a third path to victory in sha'rah, if you took it before letting yourself be trapped. The game always degenerated in a bloody melee, then, victory coming only with complete annihilation of your enemy. He had tried that, once, in desperation, but the attempt had failed. Painfully.

 

Fury boiled suddenly in Moridin's head, and black flecks swam across his eyes as he seized the True Power. Ecstasy that amounted to pain thundered through him. His hand closed around the two mindtraps, and the True Power closed around the Fisher, snatching it into the air, a hair from crushing it to powder, crushing the powder out of existence. The goblet shattered in his hand. His grip bordered on crushing the cour'souvra. The saa were a blizzard of black, but they did not hinder his sight. The Fisher was always worked as a man, a bandage blinding his eyes and one hand pressed to his side, a few drops of blood dripping through his fingers. The reasons, like the source of the name, were lost in the mist of time. That troubled him sometimes, enraged him, what knowledge might be lost in the turnings of the Wheel, knowledge he needed, knowledge he had a right to. A right!

 

Slowly he set the Fisher back on the board. Slowly his fingers uncurled from around the cour'souvra. There was no need for destruction. Yet. Icy calm replaced rage in the blink of an eye. Blood and wine dripped from his gashed hand, unnoticed. Perhaps the Fisher did come from some dim remnant of a memory of Rand al'Thor, the shadow of a shadow. It did not matter. He realized he was laughing, and made no effort to stop. On the board, the Fisher stood waiting, but in the greater game, al'Thor moved already to his wishes. And soon, now. ... It was very hard to lose a game when you played both sides of the board. Moridin laughed so hard that tears rolled down his face, but he was not aware of them.

[ROB_88]

 

#2) How many dragons have existed in history?

 

There is one Dragon, he is reborn in all 7 Ages according to the basic theory.

 

where are you getting that idea from? i've seen nothing to support that theory.

so far we know that the Dragon is active in some form (as LTT or Rand) in 2 ages.

 

there is nothing to support that the next age will have a Dragon Reborn Reborn.

he'll be in the next TURNING, but that's a whole other deal.

[SheaththeSword]

Exactely my point. Every turning of the wheel gaurantees that the dragon be born at least twice (or has so far), however his creation EVERY AGE, just like the possibility of the pattern being destroyed EVERY SINGLE AGE, are never proven or even alluded to.

 

It was said above for example a nucleur war would be the end of the world. Sure, but not the destruction of the Pattern (an thats if u believe that the wheel of time is real/applicable to this reality xD). But in the series, the DO and the Creator are the only ones given power to destroy the pattern (or perhaps only the DO, and the creator only the power the create one). Point is, Posibilty of destruction (called the Last Battle, as only DO has power to end time and reality) comes about every full revolution (or so we are led to believe), and certainly DOES NOT come about every 1/7 of the turning.

 

 

Incidentally, 1 age would equal (in degrees) 51.428571428571428571428571428571.... (assuming its a well made wheel and the spokes are placed evenly apart)

 

[mb]

I have read through book 12, not yet TGS.

I guess you mean New Spring through Knife of Dreams; New Spring is not book 1, Gathering Storm is book 12

 

How many ages have passed since the Age of Legends?

Since the ending of the Age of Legends? None

Since the beginning (or the middle) of the Age of Legends? just the Age of legends.

The Age of the books is the Age after the Age of Legends.

 

How many dragons have existed in history?

How many times the soul has been reborn? Many times.

How many times the rebirths have been called the dragon? Possibly once per age.

 

Will the next Age have another Dragon?

Possibly.  This prophecy could be an indicator:

And his paths shall be many, and who shall know his name, for he shall be born among us many times, in many guises, as he has been and ever will be, time without end.

Dragon Reborn, Header

 

Will the Dragon Reborn then be referred to as Lews Therin or as Rand al'Thor?

Likely a different name.