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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Jason Denzel

What was your favorite chapter / scene/quote?

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....The meeting between Tuon and Rand was unfortunate, but really ended the way it had to with Rand being the way he was.

 

....means that Rand has finally become the Dragon, not the Dragon Reborn.

 

 

the meeting ended the way it had to because of the way Rand was? asking for peace, or just a temporary cease-fire, in the face of armageddon with possible compromises on those terms, barring enslavement of a certain group is not reasonable enough for you? i think he was reasonable, if not endearing and diplomatically proficient. personally i blame Tuon's stubbornness more.

 

Rand is the Dragon reborn. the Dragon was a title/honourific given to a man in a previous age. Rand is he reborn. of course, i am being literal here, and if you weren't being literal, then i apologise for stating the obvious.  ;D

 

It is quite possible that Tuon was being Compelled. Compare what Nynaeve experiences in TSR to Tuon's POV here.

 

For that reason, I believe her decision to refuse to submit was actually noble, in the sense that CrazyRand was dispensing even with his ta'verenness and using forbidden things, in keeping with his activities in this book.

 

personally i don't suspect any compulsion, other that upbringing and culture.

 

but the point was that i disagreed with the implication that it was a failure due to Rand. also, as impressive as it was for her to hold out against the rand-darkness-force-thing, (and it was impressive), it was still the wrong decision at the end. i think she acknowledges later that it was they who acted against him, he wanted to work with.

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There were many great parts in this book.  It's hard to choose just one.  Some lesser favorites were Chapter 22, definitely, and Verin.  And Egwene saying heeeeell no, not in my tower beotches, then blowing seanchan out of the sky was incredibly cool.  The part where there was no elayne at all through the enter book was wonderful as well.  (she's my least favorite character and i wish she'd die horribly every time I read a chapter about her)

 

I have to say that my very favorite part of this book was Rand's resolution.  The part when he sat atop Dragonmount and found his reason to fight.  That scene was very powerful and extremely well written.  As someone that has been an amatuer writer for over a decade now I find myself drawn more and more to scenes of inner struggle rather than big explosive confrontations or shocking revelations.  The skill that it takes to show the inner, raging turmoil in rand's heart and the joy that he felt on resolving it was incredible.  The way Rand's inner struggle seemed to be the whole sum of the struggle of the entire series up until that point was spectacular.  The way his emotions and thoughts prgressed as he thought things out and the joy that he felt when he came to his realization really had me on the edge of my seat, and when he destroyed the access ter'angreal I cheered aloud.  In my opinion that was the best part in the entire series up until now.  Rand's triumph over himself.  This is a struggle that has been looming in the background since TGH, and to see it resolved so well actually brought tears to my eyes.  I can't tell whether RJ or BS wrote that part, but whichever one it was wrote it so incredibly well, and deserves a huge pat on the back for it.

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I have to agree that the Verin/Egwene scene was awesome, because i'm now dying to know how Verin plans on doing what she needs to do, and how she might come back - "in case I do not return"  In terms of my least favorite scene, I was dying for an epic battle with Graendal, and it just felt anti-climactic the massive balefire of her palace

 

 

With all the building up that was given about how clever she is, an how she has a way to escape from everything it's almost like RJ&BS were screaming to us that she's going to be back to bite rand in teh ass at TG.  What I think happened is that she guessed Rand's plan and had a different channeler place the cumpulsion on the dude.  With her tastes in taking pretty, high placed individuals and turning them into furniture she MUST have had at least one channeler amongst her pretties that could ahve done it.  Then she conveniantly escaped while leaving the one that laid the cumpulsion behind to die, thereby catching Rand in his own trap.  She's too smart to be caught like that, and it was too anti-climactic for that to be the end of her.

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I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet, as while it might not have been my favorite or most shocking scene (Semi, Veins of Gold, Verin, Egwene kicking Seanchan ass, etc) it was a scene that made me think and shudder kind of.

 

When Rand returns to Bander Eban after burning Graendal's tower out of existence and learns all the food, on every ship and every store house, had gone bad at the same time, forcing an entire nation to a slow death of starvation, he just walks away. He doesn't care, not his problem anymore.

 

First, this scene shows how cold and frankly inhuman Rand has become. Yeah he goes on to make Hurin gag and nearly destroys the Borderlanders out of spite, but this seemed so... cold. Evil.

 

What really got to me though was this scene in conjunction with the Fisher King analogy. "The Dragon is one with the land, and the land one with the Dragon" or however that saying goes. Someone mentioned Nynaeve's tea going bad around Rand, and I think this is the same thing. As Rand sinks further and further into despair and madness, so does the land. Rand is rotting himself from within, and it in turn is rotting the land. What he does by baelfiring Graendal and her lackey's is so atrocious, so evil, so against nature, that an entire city rots. Basically everything good Rand had done (brought stability, food, etc) was wiped away in an instant (the very same instant the palace is winked out of existence I'd guess), and now Arad Doman is doomed to civil war, Seanchan, and complete starvation.

 

Anyways, this is my somewhat rambling theory on a scene that got to me. Has some merit I think, and perhaps we will see if after Veins of Gold things don't start growing some more. Let the Lord of the Morning shelter us so that green things may grow, I think that is another one of those KC sayings.

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....The meeting between Tuon and Rand was unfortunate, but really ended the way it had to with Rand being the way he was.

 

....means that Rand has finally become the Dragon, not the Dragon Reborn.

 

 

the meeting ended the way it had to because of the way Rand was? asking for peace, or just a temporary cease-fire, in the face of armageddon with possible compromises on those terms, barring enslavement of a certain group is not reasonable enough for you? i think he was reasonable, if not endearing and diplomatically proficient. personally i blame Tuon's stubbornness more.

 

Rand is the Dragon reborn. the Dragon was a title/honourific given to a man in a previous age. Rand is he reborn. of course, i am being literal here, and if you weren't being literal, then i apologise for stating the obvious.  ;D

 

 

Yes, I was using it in a more figurative sense, the idea that he recognizes that he IS Llews Therin, and how he wouldn't be a separate voice talking in his head anymore.  Maybe I should have said that he's (hopefully) not the Dragon anymore, but the Lord of Morning once again.  As for the other the "way Rand was," I was referring more to the nimbus of evil energy he had swirling around him then the actual offer he was making.  People aren't to inclined to make deals with people they're already afraid of giving off waves of evil feelings.

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What really got to me though was this scene in conjunction with the Fisher King analogy. "The Dragon is one with the land, and the land one with the Dragon" or however that saying goes. Someone mentioned Nynaeve's tea going bad around Rand, and I think this is the same thing. As Rand sinks further and further into despair and madness, so does the land. Rand is rotting himself from within, and it in turn is rotting the land. What he does by baelfiring Graendal and her lackey's is so atrocious, so evil, so against nature, that an entire city rots. Basically everything good Rand had done (brought stability, food, etc) was wiped away in an instant (the very same instant the palace is winked out of existence I'd guess), and now Arad Doman is doomed to civil war, Seanchan, and complete starvation.

 

Anyways, this is my somewhat rambling theory on a scene that got to me. Has some merit I think, and perhaps we will see if after Veins of Gold things don't start growing some more. Let the Lord of the Morning shelter us so that green things may grow, I think that is another one of those KC sayings.

 

I like this idea--if the Dark One's attacks on reality have so thinned the Pattern as to increase the effects of Rand's ta'maral'ailen then that is massive. There is even some other evidence of it--if Verin was right about it being Mat's ta'maral'ailen that pulled her to him then we know something is up. Prior to this the extent of the influence of a ta'maral'ailen (even Rands) was a couple of miles (Rand's was able to entirely contain the city of Tear but not much beyond it). If Mat's could pull Verin to Murandy from Tear then its gotten stronger--significantly so. And if Mat's is stronger then Rand's will be stronger too.

 

The implications of that are staggering--consider when Rand threatens to use his ta'maral'ailen to kill Cadsuane and she thinks 'thats not how being ta'veren works... is it?' and then believes him. Consider the warp that appears around him in the air--I assumed that came from him using the TP, but something else had just happened. Rand had gone cold. What if what we were seeing was the pattern itself being contorted by his ta'maral'ailen? Certainly this would explain Nynaeve's tea going bad after the air warps around him another time (though in truth so would it being a result of Rand touching the TP, perhaps with more backing, but still...)

 

If so, then what if the storm clouds breaking were not a result of the destruction of the Choedan Kal, but the lightening of Rand's heart, and therefor the lightening of the effect his ta'maral'ailen had on the Pattern. I kinda like that thought--because then, as you said, we might see the world itself start fighting back against the Dark One's touch.

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I can see that theory having a lot of merit too, the idea that as Rand's mood sank into despair, so did the land - as his mood lightens, so does the sky.  Makes me think of what Elan Morin has been saying all along: good and evil are battling each other through their champions, as they have time and time again.  Elan Morin has said a few times that he is the Dark One's champion, just as Rand is the Creator's, it's no wonder that things would falter as Rand did.  That being said, although this is a less relevant theory, and more just something I find interesting, most of the accounts say that Llews Therin didn't gain the name "Dragon" until AFTER he went mad and killed his family and brought the Breaking.  Before that, he was the Lord of the Morning.  Perhaps, at long last, Rand will stop being the Dragon and become the Lord of Morning again - since that's who sealed the Dark One away.

<Edit: As was pointed out, they DID call him the Dragon before the Breaking... I had forgotten completely about the Aiel, etc.  Guess this was a "better to not open your mouth..." moment.>

 

Also, as far as the champion's go, there are few people who would know better how to seal the Dark One back in for good than Elan Morin Tedronai.  Although highly unlikely, if Rand were somehow able to convince Elan Morin to care again about second chances, that might be the difference between victory and defeat - just as the Dark One tried to win by making Rand stop caring.  Again, unlikely, but possible, and interesting to speculate, particularly in a story that is largely about redemption.

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I can see that theory having a lot of merit too, the idea that as Rand's mood sank into despair, so did the land - as his mood lightens, so does the sky.  Makes me think of what Elan Morin has been saying all along: good and evil are battling each other through their champions, as they have time and time again.  Elan Morin has said a few times that he is the Dark One's champion, just as Rand is the Creator's, it's no wonder that things would falter as Rand did.  That being said, although this is a less relevant theory, and more just something I find interesting, most of the accounts say that Llews Therin didn't gain the name "Dragon" until AFTER he went mad and killed his family and brought the Breaking.  Before that, he was the Lord of the Morning.  Perhaps, at long last, Rand will stop being the Dragon and become the Lord of Morning again - since that's who sealed the Dark One away.

 

 

That is absolutely not true; the BBWBA makes clear that the forces of the Light called him the Dragon during the First War. That is, for example, the reason the Aiel became known as the People of the Dragon, because he moved heaven and earth to protect them, most likely because their Covenant represented a last link to peace and goodness of the past.

 

I like your second paragraph though.

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I can see that theory having a lot of merit too, the idea that as Rand's mood sank into despair, so did the land - as his mood lightens, so does the sky.  Makes me think of what Elan Morin has been saying all along: good and evil are battling each other through their champions, as they have time and time again.  Elan Morin has said a few times that he is the Dark One's champion, just as Rand is the Creator's, it's no wonder that things would falter as Rand did.  That being said, although this is a less relevant theory, and more just something I find interesting, most of the accounts say that Llews Therin didn't gain the name "Dragon" until AFTER he went mad and killed his family and brought the Breaking.  Before that, he was the Lord of the Morning.  Perhaps, at long last, Rand will stop being the Dragon and become the Lord of Morning again - since that's who sealed the Dark One away.

 

 

That is absolutely not true; the BBWBA makes clear that the forces of the Light called him the Dragon during the First War. That is, for example, the reason the Aiel became known as the People of the Dragon, because he moved heaven and earth to protect them, most likely because their Covenant represented a last link to peace and goodness of the past.

 

I like your second paragraph though.

 

You're right, I had forgotten about that. :-P  I knew I should have reread all the books again first.  I was thinking of whatever poem or prophecy it is that talks about the breaking, and ends it with "...and they called him the Dragon."  I'd look it up, but I unfortunately only have The Gathering Storm with me right now.  But you are right, the Aiel are the People of the Dragon.

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My two favorite parts have to be these scenes.

 

Rand saying that what he is about to do should terrify him but it doesn't.

 

Talmanes talking about how Mat would mutter about drinking and gambling in his sleep (Anyone want to gamble for my drink? laughed out loud everytime I read that line)

 

I have never been a fan of the "Wonder Girls" but I do have to admit that Egwene has finally stepped up in this book. Now if they could just stop thinking they know what is best for Rand and the other two can stop being annoying I will be content.

 

The Semi scene seemed a bit . . . meh. Oh it was shocking and wonderful to read, but I can't for the life of me figure out a way that Rand or Lews Therin would have actually known how to tap the TP, much less form Balefire with it. To be perfectly honest, Min suddenly being able to channel and killing Semi herself would have been just as shocking and would have made more sense. Not that I am saying I believe that is even possible, but compared to the champion of the light not only using the Dark One's power but also knowing how to use the one weave he needed to know is pretty out there. One of the things I have always liked about this series is it is pretty realistic when it comes to things being inconvenient for the main character.

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Gotta agree with Jason, Chapter 22 The Last That Could Be Done.  What was your most disappointing chapter or scene?  Mine was where Rand and Tuon met.  That could have been epic, both in plot line and writing but I felt let down.

 

SPOILER ALERT

 

I somewhat agree, but Rand and Tuon coming to some sort of amicable agreement at that point would have completely invalidated the point of Ishamael corrupting the Prophecies of the Dragon in Seanchan. Nothing Ishamael has done so far (to my knowledge) has proved useless, though much of it didn't work out the way he intended. Not to mention throwing out the foreshadowing with Mat in The Fires of Heaven (I'd never betray you!). I think Mat is going to be somehow instrumental in making Rand "kneel to the Crystal Throne"...we'll see.

 

All I can say is HOLY CRAP about Rand finding the True Power. Never more obvious than now that the Dark One's ultimate desire is to corrupt the Dragon, even at the cost of one of his most valuable servants (Semirhage, and earlier on Ishamael in books 1-3), although I'm sure he must have gritted his teeth to know that Semirhage got baelfired. I'm interested to see how that plays out further down the line, given his "Come to Jesus" moment at the end of the book where he learns to laugh again. The True Power is completely given on the Dark One's whim...will he continue to leave that seductive power available to Rand now that he has had that change of heart?

 

I'm still somewhat disappointed to not know who killed Asmodean.

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In so many ways the meeting between Rand & Co and Tuon was a missed opportunity.  The participants were very much in character, being all cagey as Kat said, keeping their cards close to their chest so to speak.  But for crying out loud, TG is coming.  If that's not a reason to bury the hatchet, what is?

 

The problem here is the two drastically different expectations of how the prophecies are to work out. The Seanchan have had a corrupted version of the Prophecies of the Dragon for centuries, and are all basically engineered from birth to believe (falsely) that mankind's only hope is for them to fight the Armies from the Blight while a subjugated Dragon Reborn goes to fight the Dark One. Thank Ishamael!

 

And honestly, who could Rand possibly kneel to? Never willingly.

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The scene I hated most was the one where Egwene was talking about how Rand needed to be controlled. it also irked me when she tried to draw comparissons between herself and Rand's experiences in small confined spaces.

 

my favourite moment was when rand stopped hiding his knowledge oh historical events

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The Semi scene seemed a bit . . . meh. Oh it was shocking and wonderful to read, but I can't for the life of me figure out a way that Rand or Lews Therin would have actually known how to tap the TP, much less form Balefire with it. To be perfectly honest, Min suddenly being able to channel and killing Semi herself would have been just as shocking and would have made more sense. Not that I am saying I believe that is even possible, but compared to the champion of the light not only using the Dark One's power but also knowing how to use the one weave he needed to know is pretty out there. One of the things I have always liked about this series is it is pretty realistic when it comes to things being inconvenient for the main character.

I personally thought it was a sign of his increasing connection with Moridin. He seemed to take on a bit of personality in other aspects to me. That or the Dark One just decided to grant him access to weave him in. It seemed the perfect macarbe punishment for Semirhage as well. 

 

On another note, while reading this book I couldn't help drawing parallels between Rand and Aridhol. That he was going down the path of using the Dark's weapons against the Dark.

 

As for my favourite scene. I'd say Mat and some of his Band in that town where everyone goes beserk after dark and are stuck in the cycle. That was just chilling. That or the last scene with Rand. Man, I think I needed that as much as he did after seeing everything he was going through xD

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I'm not sure if this has been said before but im going to assume that it has. RAND WILL NOT KNEEL TO THE CRYSTAL THRONE, that is not a prophecy nor is it Part of the KC cycle, it is in fact a false prophecy spread by ishamael. That scene with Rand and Tuon was very good, it points to the fact that rand needs to get back in contact with Mat at some stage to get help in binding Tuon to him. Although there is every possibility that in binding Tuon to him rand will kneel to her, but then again, RJ did say that the main sequence of events will never return to Seanchan so him kneeling to the crystal throne is an impossibility, unless its referring to kneeling to the empress.

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How do we know Ishy corrupted the prophecies?  I assume somewhere in KoD?  I think I'm now going to start my series reread and I'd like to know where/when to find it.

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How do we know Ishy corrupted the prophecies?  I assume somewhere in KoD?  I think I'm now going to start my series reread and I'd like to know where/when to find it.

 

Among other things, Elan Morin alluded to it, and I believe RJ confirmed that Elan Morin specifically corrupted every copy of the KC sent over with Luthair.

 

It wouldn't have been difficult, since Elan Morin as Moerad was the most powerful person in Hawkwing's empire.

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It is possible that now that Tuon has traveling she will travel to Seanchan and take the Crystal Throne back to Ebou Dar. That is the seat of the Empire now.

 

I think that falls under the heading of "things the Deathwatch Guard and her Truthspeaker will chain her up in her room to prevent, even if it means she needs a new set of Deathwatch Guards"

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Yeah she probably could bring it back, but as of yet we do not know if they have traveling, just because they have Elaida doesn't mean that all the damane know how to do it YET.

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