Towers of Midnight Speculation Thread (Spoilers for tGS)

[elec1cele]

Perhaps this is just another difference between men and women? (OK I know that's a bit tenuous). Have we actually had a definitive point of view from the others that their strength is the same, or are we just assuming? (Aran'gar/Halima is a unique case I think).

 

I think the best evidence that transmigrated souls retain their strength in the OP (under "normal" conditions) is Graendal's original assumption that Cyndane could not be Lanfear because of the difference in strength.  Either she was making a big assumption or it was based on past experience.  The latter seems much more likely to me.

[Mr Ares]

Perhaps this is just another difference between men and women? (OK I know that's a bit tenuous). Have we actually had a definitive point of view from the others that their strength is the same, or are we just assuming? (Aran'gar/Halima is a unique case I think).

Doubt was expressed over Cyndane being Lanfear for that very reason.

 

There's too many unknowns with this whole ordeal.

When theorising, you have to work with the evidence you have. The evidence we have might not be set in stone proof, dead certain, cannot be another way, but it is overwhelmingly likely.

 

Brandon also shoots down a couple of old theories on this, saying that he doesn't think that the Eelfinn could reduce someone's strength in the Power, at least on any permanent basis, saying he's pretty sure that a burnt out person who was transmigrated would still be burnt out afterwards, and saying her reduction in strength is not due to Shai'tan. There really isn't a competing theory at the moment, not with any serious backing. You can say there are too many unknowns, but given what we do know, her being burnt out seems quite likely.

 

Regarding the DO bringing her back, reading Tamyrlin's discussion with Brandon has me thinking the DO can modify the potential of channelers to some extent.

There's really no indication of that. Look at what he wrote:

 

Brandon: ...when it comes to this certain character that you are talking about, there is a whole thing where Maria and I exchanged a bunch of emails about this. She had managed to pull some things out of the notes that I had not seen, which is interesting, because I was going off of something else. I did not think that Cyndane should be nearly as powerful as she was put in the books as being, so I had been under the belief that the Dark One was pulling shenanigans…

 

Matt: ...like a little, in essence, let’s say what the Forsaken Lanfear did to Asmodean, you thought maybe the Dark One was doing some similar…shielding…

 

Brandon: …or the other way around…here is a little extra power you can draw upon while I am pleased with you, I can take this away…

Brandon isn't saying that Shai'tan could do that, he isn't implying such a thing is possible. Now, we don't know what Maria turned up in the notes, but given that we know it didn't happen in Cyndane's case, and we have no indication that such a thing is possible, it is at best idle speculation. Also, it's not something Shai'tan would have reason to do.

[Lambada]

Just incase anyone isn't reading the FAQ compilation threads.

In one of them it has been confirmed that "Towers of Midnight" does refer to the Seanchan towers, albeit not exlusively. A working title Brandon used was "The Three Towers".

[blue13326]

Elaida collaring Rand. Wasn't this one of her prophecies?

 

And don't prophecies always come true?

 

What of it?

 

 

[wotjunkie]

Just incase anyone isn't reading the FAQ compilation threads.

In one of them it has been confirmed that "Towers of Midnight" does refer to the Seanchan towers, albeit not exlusively. A working title Brandon used was "The Three Towers".

 

he shoots, he scores !!!!

 

the crowd go's wild !!!

 

 

so does this mean that there will be something significant about seandar in the next book?

 

i still have a feeling Demandred is there gathering an army ...

[analyticalkeys]

Just incase anyone isn't reading the FAQ compilation threads.

In one of them it has been confirmed that "Towers of Midnight" does refer to the Seanchan towers, albeit not exlusively. A working title Brandon used was "The Three Towers".

 

he shoots, he scores !!!!

 

the crowd go's wild !!!

 

 

so does this mean that there will be something significant about seandar in the next book?

 

i still have a feeling Demandred is there gathering an army ...

 

 

Well, I don't think any of us actually know what the Towers of Midnight are, except where they're located on the Seanchan map.. but it's definitely going to have some kind of role.. although what exactly, it's hard to say.

[jemron]

Just because the title of the book comes from the name of the "Towers of Midnight" in Seandar, this does not mean that the book is about those specific towers.  My opinion is that BS used that title because it fits so well into the use of various Towers throughout the series (and likely during the book particularly).  Black Tower, White Tower, Tower of Ghenjei, Seanchan "Towers of Midnight," etc...

 

"Not exclusively" is the key here.  It will be interesting to see if there are going to be any actual scenes that will take place at/in the literal Towers of Midnight.  That would be cool; but I kinda doubt it will be a major part of the book if in it at all..

[analyticalkeys]

Just because the title of the book comes from the name of the "Towers of Midnight" in Seandar, this does not mean that the book is about those specific towers.  My opinion is that BS used that title because it fits so well into the use of various Towers throughout the series (and likely during the book particularly).  Black Tower, White Tower, Tower of Ghenjei, Seanchan "Towers of Midnight," etc...

 

"Not exclusively" is the key here.  It will be interesting to see if there are going to be any actual scenes that will take place at/in the literal Towers of Midnight.  That would be cool; but I kinda doubt it will be a major part of the book if in it at all..

 

No, I don't think they'll be a MAJOR part of the book.. but there's definitely going to be something.. look at all the other book titles. They all do have some relation.. and the ones that specifically list something.. Dragon Reborn, Great Hunt, Eye of the World, Crown of Swords, etc. all have that item in it, even if not for a long time.

[randfandom]

Elaida collaring Rand. Wasn't this one of her prophecies?

 

No, her foretelling was that "Rand Al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger" (I think I have the wording right). Note the Amyrlin's name is not specified, nor is Rand's title. It also does not say that Rand will necessarily be cowed by her anger, only that he will face and know it.

Since practically every encounter between Rand and Egwene throughout the series has quickly developed into a heated argument, I am sure this long awaited meeting between them to not deviate from the norm. It will be fun to read...

 

[dbo -WoT-]

Regarding the DO bringing her back, reading Tamyrlin's discussion with Brandon has me thinking the DO can modify the potential of channelers to some extent.

There's really no indication of that. Look at what he wrote:

 

Brandon: ...when it comes to this certain character that you are talking about, there is a whole thing where Maria and I exchanged a bunch of emails about this. She had managed to pull some things out of the notes that I had not seen, which is interesting, because I was going off of something else. I did not think that Cyndane should be nearly as powerful as she was put in the books as being, so I had been under the belief that the Dark One was pulling shenanigans…

 

Matt: ...like a little, in essence, let’s say what the Forsaken Lanfear did to Asmodean, you thought maybe the Dark One was doing some similar…shielding…

 

Brandon: …or the other way around…here is a little extra power you can draw upon while I am pleased with you, I can take this away…

Brandon isn't saying that Shai'tan could do that, he isn't implying such a thing is possible. Now, we don't know what Maria turned up in the notes, but given that we know it didn't happen in Cyndane's case, and we have no indication that such a thing is possible, it is at best idle speculation. Also, it's not something Shai'tan would have reason to do.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this topic  :).

All I was trying to say is BS had himself convinced that Cyndane was weaker than she was. This was the reason he gave. If this really is what he thought, then the DO must be able to modify channelers strengths. If this was just a random example he gave, then you're right and my theory is almost surely wrong.

I don't put too much weight on my theory anyway. I mean, if the DO could increase peoples potential for a time, I think we would have seen many examples in the past unless it's a surprise card he has up his sleeve.

[Tigraine]

Regarding Lanfear/Cyndane...

 

Firstly, I don't see the fact that Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear as being any kind of proof that she was Healed of stilling. I always believed strength in the power was much like any other strength a person may possess, in that it is defined by that person's unique physiology, and some are stronger or weaker than others.

 

For example, Person A can lift 100lbs in weights, but Person B can only lift 70lbs. If you take Person A's soul and transmigrate it into Person B, despite whatever prowess they may have had before, they are now stuck with the limitations of Person B's body. So, to follow on, Cyndane's body just isn't "strong" enough to deal with the amount of power than Lanfear's body could. Her lesser power is merely a side effect of having a new body.

 

I also don't think there is sufficient evidence to assume Moiraine has been stilled in Finnland. Yes, her bond with Lan broke, but as others have already mentioned, she is in a different dimension from Lan and I do think it seems unlikely that the bond would remain under these circumstances. I know Lan could feel her when she went through the Doorway in Tear - but there was always a connection back to the real world (ie Randland) when she visited before. This time, the doorway in effect slammed shut, severing all connections between this world and the Finn's world.

 

One other piece of evidence I would put forward against Moiraine being stilled is the fact it has been mentioned numerous times that stilled sisters often die soon after, as they lose their will to live. Siuan and Leane fired themselves up with righteous anger in order to keep going when they were stilled, but imagine Moiraine trapped in a different dimension, with presumably no allies or friends, possibly kept in captivity for a long, long time. I can't imagine even the strongest willed sister keeping going in that situation.

 

In reference to the last paragraph...Moiraine knows that there is a chance she will be saved i.e. sending mat, thom and Unknown on a trip to rescue her.  I haven't yet decided if i think she was stilled or not but i just wanted to point out that fact

[Nynaeves Braid]

Not sure if this is the right place for this, but since ToM looks like it's going to deal with Finnland and the Tower of Ghenjei, I had some bizarre theories to throw out. We know that during the AoL, which RJ said was our world in the future, the technology level was very advanced but we don't see too much obvious evidence that any of this technology still exists. For the past day or so, I keep thinking about Finnland and wondering if it could be some sort of cyberspace/virtual reality inhabited by rogue AIs (Aelfinn and Eelfinn) from the AoL. Time passes differently there, the Finns can't manifest themselves in Randland, they possess lots of information. I still haven't thought this through yet but it's an intriguing idea. The Tower of Ghenjei, too, seems somewhat machinelike in its appearance, rather than a tower in the sense of being a building. More to follow if anybody else finds this worth pursuing.

[Jemlin]

How do we know for sure that Moraine will be rescued and remain out of the Finnland forever?

 

I.e. think about her and Thom's relationship in reference to Authurian tales, and the story of Merlin and Nimue (speling).  Though he's shown to not connect our myths with the books fact to fact, themese do relate.  Thom's relation to Rand & Mat, and his relation to Moraine seem to relate to their story, especially with him going into the "cave" to rescue her.  He might just do that...and after a brief time, they might once again be sent from the world....maybe as a part of her bargain? 

 

According to Min's viewing, she has to help Rand, but there is nothing saying that helping him means sticking around for a long time.  She also knows she will see Thom again, but we don't know if they will be together for a while..or if they are, that it will be here.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

All I was trying to say is BS had himself convinced that Cyndane was weaker than she was. This was the reason he gave. If this really is what he thought, then the DO must be able to modify channelers strengths. If this was just a random example he gave, then you're right and my theory is almost surely wrong.

It doesn't follow, though, that as BS thought that was the reason, it must be possible. It might mean that he though it possible, but now knows it isn't, for example.

I don't put too much weight on my theory anyway. I mean, if the DO could increase peoples potential for a time, I think we would have seen many examples in the past unless it's a surprise card he has up his sleeve.

It would only be of limited usefulness - a quick boost of strength at a crucial moment.

[1eejit]

Female stilled channeler healed with saidar = greatly weakened

Female stilled channeler healed with saidin = full strength

Male stilled channeler healed with saidin = greatly weakened ?

Male stilled channeler healed with saidar = full strength ?

 

So could it simply be that -

Male or female stilled channeler healed with True Power = slightly weakened?

 

[benr]

Is there any information about entrances/exits to the land of the Finns in Seanchen?  Is it possible that the Towers of Midnight could be that?

[analyticalkeys]

Female stilled channeler healed with saidar = greatly weakened

Female stilled channeler healed with saidin = full strength

Male stilled channeler healed with saidin = greatly weakened ?

Male stilled channeler healed with saidar = full strength ?

 

So could it simply be that -

Male or female stilled channeler healed with True Power = slightly weakened?

 

 

I'm still convinced that Lanfear's belt was an angreal that increased her strength.

[clu7ch]

No idea as to whether or not towers exist in finnland, or the land of madmen, or shara for that matter. It seems likely that they could exist however, at the very least they are not disproved.

 

And lanfear had a HUGE GIGANTIC ego. she wasn't quite the hot-shit she played herself as.

[Mr Ares]

Is there any information about entrances/exits to the land of the Finns in Seanchen? Is it possible that the Towers of Midnight could be that?

We know what the Towers of Midnight are, a fortress in Seanchan (not Seandar though). It is unknown if there is any connection to the Finns in Seanchan, although bear in mind it is a superstition over there.

 

I'm still convinced that Lanfear's belt was an angreal that increased her strength.

Except women sense the strength of other women, and if the other woman has an angreal, they only sense their normal strength, or what they are drawing through the angreal. Not how strong they would be if the angreal was a part of their strength.

[mike-cook]

i want to see mistress anan get her power restored!!

[1eejit]

Female stilled channeler healed with saidar = greatly weakened

Female stilled channeler healed with saidin = full strength

Male stilled channeler healed with saidin = greatly weakened ?

Male stilled channeler healed with saidar = full strength ?

 

So could it simply be that -

Male or female stilled channeler healed with True Power = slightly weakened?

 

 

I'm still convinced that Lanfear's belt was an angreal that increased her strength.

That could be the case, but it doesn't seem to me that there's enough evidence to be convinced by any of the possible explanations.

[Declan]

Is there any information about entrances/exits to the land of the Finns in Seanchen?  Is it possible that the Towers of Midnight could be that?

 

This has come up either in this thread or somewhere else but the Towers of Midnight refer to a place where the Seanchan train the damane or "break" them rather. It was the place where the woman who first made the a'dam was leashed by it and she screamed. i know there is something possibly in the guide to back me up.

[richnewton82]

.

[jemron]

 

I'm still convinced that Lanfear's belt was an angreal that increased her strength.

 

I don't think it is possible to use 2 angreals at the same time and she was using the bracelet on the docks. So I think its impossible for her to have a belt angreal.

 

It is possible.  When Rand and Asmodean were fighting for the CK key at the end of TSR, Rand won because he used the fat man angreal on top of the  "half" of the CK that he was fighting over Asmodean with.  This gave Rand the upper-hand (barely) and allowed him to defeat Asmodean.

[Jemlin]

 

I'm still convinced that Lanfear's belt was an angreal that increased her strength.

 

I don't think it is possible to use 2 angreals at the same time and she was using the bracelet on the docks. So I think its impossible for her to have a belt angreal.

 

It is possible.  When Rand and Asmodean were fighting for the CK key at the end of TSR, Rand won because he used the fat man angreal on top of the  "half" of the CK that he was fighting over Asmodean with.  This gave Rand the upper-hand (barely) and allowed him to defeat Asmodean.

 

Women judge strength in each other two ways:

 

1. being near each other, and feeling the potential strength before actually channeling

2. viewing the other woman holding Saidar, and perceiving the aura and feeling of Saidar.

 

At the Clensing, Cyndane/Lanfear was confused because Alivia was already holding Saidar, therefore, her judgement of her strength was biased due to Alivia using an Angreal.

 

Lanfear would not have been able to prove her strength when fakely if she wasn't holding it all of the time (atleast, a stronger ability, you can mask it to make it seem weaker).  Also, her own POV states she was the strongest.