Modification: What parts do you dislike in the WOT?

[Mr Ares]

If the major Light characters had been killed off at a realistic rate....

Since when has reality set main character death quotas? (This to any of you equating major deaths with realism)

[RAND AL THOR]

If the major Light characters had been killed off at a realistic rate....

Since when has reality set main character death quotas? (This to any of you equating major deaths with realism)

 

I'm living in Sri Lanka and this country is still in the middle of civil war, so I can answer your question perfectly. Both sides in this war have lost important leaders throughout the 30 year war. Several presidents have been murdered on the government side and many important leaders have been killed on the rebel side. But neither side is winning nor losing.

 

In a battle, all the bad guys just do not get wiped out with the heroes victorious. If so, the war in Sri Lanka would have ended long ago.

 

Both sides in a war suffer casualties. That is reality. There are some authors out there who kill major characters. In one book, a chief character falls from a very high tower and dies. That is reality. But most typical fantasy writers would have him miraculously landing on the back of a giant eagle that swooped down just in time to save him.

 

That's what most of us here are trying to say. In my opinion the Light has not lost major leaders in this war. (I'm not referring to the War of the Shadow).

[RAND AL THOR]

Also, the main characters in the WOT are all powerful people in the forces of the Light. All of them surviving while the Forsaken crumble around them is unrealistic. In LOTR, we have Gilgalad and Elendil die when confronting Sauron. Now THAT is realistic. If we had Elendil handcuff Sauron and then have Gilgalad chop off his head then would that appear sensible?

[Bob T Dwarf]

We need to take a wider view -

 

On the Light side, while people are not great about cooperating, they do work together in the most general sense.  Kicking and screaming to be sure, but they do it.

 

On the Dark side, all of the antagonists are possibly more busy plotting and scheming against each other than they are working against the Light.  They don't cooperate or coordinate worth beans.  They can all give any Aes Sedai lessons in arrogant.

 

So, it only makes sense that the Dark has lost more major players than the Light.  That's how Jordan set it up to be.  The Dark can't win because their basic attitudes are entirely self-defeating.

[RAND AL THOR]

Yes but that makes the Dark side appear weak. If both sides were losing fighters then it would be an awesome war. Coming back to my mention of Sri Lanka, trust me the government is full of double-crossing and betrayal. So that is very like the Dark Side for you. But both sides still lose important guys.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Look closely at the Dark.

 

Everything they believe and believe in is utter rubbish and nonsense.  They ARE weak.  None of them really has enough brain power to figure out how to get out of a phone booth.

 

They're all dumber'n a box-o-rocks, and nuttier than a tree full of squirrels.

[RAND AL THOR]

But Bob, we have to remember that the Light was actually losing the war in the last few years of the War of the Shadow. At the time the Light was very strong with LTT And the 100 comp and all the other powerful Aes Sedai and everything but they were beginning to lose. Who was instructing the DO's armies at the time? The Forsaken.

 

So they were not completely useless in the War of the Shadow, but they are rather conveniently weak in Randland now. I posted a topic some while back on the reason why the forsaken appear to be weak.

 

Have you read the short extract about the Strike on Shayol Ghul? That phrases it very well. Sammael, Rhavin and Demandred were very skilled at war in the War  of the Shadow. Perhaps they are weaker when working in conspiracy like they are doing now?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Don't confuse evil and sly with smart, strong, and resolute.  Dangerous, yes.  Winners, no.

 

They could have utterly routed the Light in the WoP and they still would have figured out a way to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory.

 

A good definition for success is to do everything of which you are capable and be satisfied with the outcome.

 

That bunch will never be satisfied with anything.  Thus, they will always find a way to trip over their own shoelaces in the end.

[Daphilip]

But Bob, we have to remember that the Light was actually losing the war in the last few years of the War of the Shadow. At the time the Light was very strong with LTT And the 100 comp and all the other powerful Aes Sedai and everything but they were beginning to lose. Who was instructing the DO's armies at the time? The Forsaken.

 

So they were not completely useless in the War of the Shadow, but they are rather conveniently weak in Randland now. I posted a topic some while back on the reason why the forsaken appear to be weak.

 

Have you read the short extract about the Strike on Shayol Ghul? That phrases it very well. Sammael,Rhavin and Demandred were very skilled at war in the War  of the Shadow. Perhaps they are weaker when working in conspiracy like they are doing now?

 

You have to remember that before Lanfear found the DO's bore, they lived in an utopian society. War was only something heard of in stories and books. Swordfighting was just a re-invented sport by LTT. Then the DO started influencing people and when the Trollocs and co was invented, the light had almost no way of defending themselves. LTT had to re-invent the art of war to face them.

 

The world of the third age is much more prepared to face the DO's forces, and the forsaken isn't prepared for that. And yes, in the AoL there was alot of powerful AS to face them... on both sides. The forsaken that lives now is only a small number of the forsaken livin in the AoL. Alot of them died during the WoP.

 

And I honestly don't think that the AS in AoL was that much more powerful than the ones livin now... I mean, there's Asha'mans almost as strong as the forsaken, and AS even stronger than some... They are constantly re-discovering new weaves and Nynaeve have done stuff they couldn't even do in the AoL.

 

All in all, I think that the world is much more prepared to face the forsaken now than then.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Good points.  Randland now IS more prepared to fight a winning war than LTTland was during the AoL.

 

Also, consider this -

 

Give any of the Forsaken individually, or even all of them collectively, everything they imagine they want.  None of them would be satisfied.  It would still feel empty.  It would still taste like sewage.

 

They're hollow people.  They have no inner core.  They have no way to resonate with life.  Nothing will ever fill that emptiness.  Thus, no matter what short-term success any of them achieve, long-term failure is all that their futures hold.

 

And, when they fail the Dark fails.

 

 

 

[Paladin]

My Biggesxzt Gripe with the WoT novels is the Sea-Folk.

Those woman who are the Pinnacle of RJ's "Strong = Bitch" view on woman really set my teeth on edge.

I simply cannot stands them & the fact that the Aes'Sedai let them walk all over them is even worse. not that the AS are much better mind you.

 

What I would LOVE to see is all of the Sea Folk channelers spend a few reflective months in the loving care of Logan's Ashaman.

[Mr Ares]

If the major Light characters had been killed off at a realistic rate....

Since when has reality set main character death quotas? (This to any of you equating major deaths with realism)

 

I'm living in Sri Lanka and this country is still in the middle of civil war, so I can answer your question perfectly. Both sides in this war have lost important leaders throughout the 30 year war. Several presidents have been murdered on the government side and many important leaders have been killed on the rebel side. But neither side is winning nor losing.

 

In a battle, all the bad guys just do not get wiped out with the heroes victorious. If so, the war in Sri Lanka would have ended long ago.

 

Both sides in a war suffer casualties. That is reality. There are some authors out there who kill major characters. In one book, a chief character falls from a very high tower and dies. That is reality. But most typical fantasy writers would have him miraculously landing on the back of a giant eagle that swooped down just in time to save him.

 

That's what most of us here are trying to say. In my opinion the Light has not lost major leaders in this war. (I'm not referring to the War of the Shadow).

So you use one war as your example? I'm sure I could find a war in which the major "good" guys all survived the war. In the Second World War, for example, Winston Churchill, Josef Stalin, Franklin Roosevelt, Charles De Gaulle, Bernard Montgomery, Georgy Zhukov, Aleksandr Vasilevsky, Dwight Eisenhower, George Patton, Douglas MacArthur, and many others survived the war. That's the political leaders of Britain, USA, USSR and the Free French, and some important generals for all of them. Now, of course you can find important people that died, and other important ones that survived. But the point is there is no such thing as a "realistic rate" of "main character" deaths. It is not, in and of itself, unrealistic for most, if not all, of the important figures in any given conflict to survive. It depends on the nature of the conflict, and many other factors. And there is a reason for the continued survival of the main characters here.

 

Edit: Just remembered that Roosevelt died before VE day, so he technically didn't survive the war. But it wasn't the war that killed him, and the point stands.

[Majsju]

Before pointing fingers at the forsaken and claiming they are all kinds of useless, it is worth keeping in mind that we do not know what the greater plan is. We know the ultimate goal, sure, but not how the shadow is planning to get there. Considering that we can see the DO getting closer and closer to breaking free, they must be doing something right.

[RAND AL THOR]

I'm sorry Ares but despite what you say a war generally demands casualties on both sides. In WOT, it is a bit hollow that the key characters of the Light survive so well.

 

Let us take H.Potter as an example (excuse me all h.potter haters)- we don't just have Vol and the Death Eaters all die. The Order suffers severe casualties. That is not only realistic, but also much more dramatic. In this war (ie WOT) the political leaders are not sitting back in rooms in the middle of fortified cities. The main characters are instead in the field of battle itself. That only makes it all the more likely that there will be casualties. After the first few books, I have come to anticipate that no main character will die any time soon. That certainly removes a bit of the thrill from the story. In stories such as this, one of the key elements is fearing for the health of your favourite characters (at least its like that for me). RJ removed that aspect from the story. I'm disappointed with that.

 

Even in the War of the Shadow, we see casualties on both sides, notably the end result where LTT and all male channelers go mad. Just for a moment, think of how the story would be if LTT seals the Bore with nobody dying and lives happily ever after?

Realistic? I think not (though u'll no doubt disagree yet again Ares)

 

The shadow's counterstrike that caused so much devastation adds much more support and thrill to the novel. Also an unexpected counter attack by the enemy is also REALISTIC.

 

I have yet to see a war where one side utterly crushes the other with no casualties while the strength of both sides are more or less the same. (Or on second thought, no more wars would be much better).

 

Majsju back me up quick! ;)

[Daphilip]

Rand is right: the reason ww2 have had so low casualty-rate among the leaders is because they doesn't stand at the frontline with a rifle in hand. They sit in safety giving orders far from the action.

 

Rand, Perrin and co however is always in the heat of the battle, well maybe not rand, he's so he can use the OP, often surrounded with enemies everywhere. Some casualties is bound to happen.

 

I was a little dissapointed when EVERYBODY survived Dumain's well. They could atleast have killed someone like Rhuarc, Bael or Dobraine or someone like that...

[Razor]

A few other world war 2 survivors

 

Subject: FW: Bravery

 

"Never judge a book by its cover."

 

Dialog From a Johnny Carson "Tonight" Show. His guest was Lee Marvin. Johnny said, "Lee, I'll bet a lot of people are unaware that you were a Marine in the initial landing at Iwo Jima and that during the course of that action, you earned the Navy Cross and were severely wounded."

 

Lee Marvin's response was:

"Yeah, yeah ... I got shot square in the ass and they gave me the Cross for securing a hot spot about halfway up Mount Suribachi. The bad thing about getting shot up on a mountain is guys getting shot hauling you down. But Johnny, at Iwo, I served under the bravest man I ever knew. We both got the Cross the same day, but what he did for his Cross made mine look cheap in comparison. The dumb bastard actually stood up on Red Beach and directed his troops to move forward and get the hell off the beach. That Sergeant and I have been life long friends."

 

"When they brought me off Suribachi we passed him and he lit a smoke and passed it to me lying on my belly on the litter. "Where'd they get you Lee?" he asked. "Well Bob, they shot me in the ass and if you make it home before me, tell Mom to sell the outhouse."

 

"Johnny, I'm not lying, Sergeant Keeshan was the bravest man I ever knew!" You now know him as Bob Keeshan. You and the world know him as "Captain Kangaroo"."

 

and

 

Fred Rogers (Mr Rogers) was a Navy Seal, and had 25 confirmed kills. He had tatoos on his arms & thats why he always wore long sleeve sweaters

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

I'm sorry Ares but despite what you say a war generally demands casualties on both sides. In WOT, it is a bit hollow that the key characters of the Light survive so well.

UNQUOTE

 

Im afraid I have to throw down the Ta'veren card here.

 

Rand needs all the key characters of the Light. We all know the drill about Ta'veren by now, that one Ta'veren twist can affect a thread, and threads around that thread, and those effects can go on and on as long as those threads  get what is necessary. Rand is the strongest Ta'veren since Artur Hawkwing, if not stronger, so the fact that he needs all the key characters of the Light is a good enough explanation I think. A good example of the long term ta'veren thing, in my oppinion, is Egwene. I reckon she became Amyrlin via a Ta'veren twist. But that isnt the subject here. RJ did an incredible thing when he came up with the Ta'veren idea. EVERYTHING that can be discribed as a fluke on the Light side, or a very unlikely coincedence, can be written off as Ta'veren. Even Mat notes this at one point, where he turned round in time to notice someone about to kill him. I cant remember when it is, but I remember him thinking to himself that he didnt hear anything, so he thought it could have been either battle instinct, luck, or Ta'veren.

[Mr Ares]

Firstly, RAND AL THOR, it's Mr Ares. Secondly, I like your point about the War of the Power - that there were casualties at the end. We haven't reached the end yet (unless you know something I don't). So while LTT survived the whole war before committing suicide in the aftermath, you expect Rand, the main character of the series and prophesied saviour, to drop dead before he's done his job? Not likely. Is there any reason, beyond the mere fact that it could have happened, for any of the main characters to have died? And those minor characters who have survived to date, why can't they be killed off at the end? And at what rate is it "realistic" to kill them off? As it is, I don't see why it is unrealistic that no-one has died yet. It is plausible that they could have survived all these battles, only to die in the end, or even survive. Also, we are talking about main character deaths (or, in real life, the deaths of important people). Again, why is it unrealistic for important people, people who are remembered for making important contributions to winning the war, to survive most of the way through and make those important contributions? When would it have been realistic for these characters to die - and conversely, what makes it unrealistic that in any given circumstance they didn't?

 

You give the example of the Sealing of the Bore taking place with no casualties, and ask if that would be realistic. Leaving aside the obvious unrealism of everyone living happily ever after - when has anyone ever managed that? - the realism or otherwise of the casualty rates would depend on various factors. How heavily defended the Bore was, for example, and whether or not Shai'tan was able to make His counter-strike. If He was unable, and if the strength of the Hundred Companions was sufficient to overwhelm and surprise the defences, it would not be unrealistic for most of the Hundred Companions and the army with them to return. If Shayol Ghul was an impregnable fortress guarded by a million trollocs, ten thousand Fades and several hundred Chosen it would be unrealistic to expect a force that size to come through without a scratch (a much smaller force could possibly sneak through unnoticed).

 

On your point about fearing for the health of main characters, RJ has not done anything to guarantee their health. Only their survival. Look at Rand. Right from the first book, we are introduced to the fact that he is a male channeler and male channelers go mad. It is not his survival that is put in jeopardy (and he's the main character. We all know the main character isn't going to die. That's one of the things that sticks out about George R.R. Martin, that he did kill off his main character (to that point), as well as killing off others.), it is his sanity. His death is seemingly foretold, so we all know he isn't going to die before TG, no matter how much the author may say that he could still die - he could, but we all know that he won't. In Lord of the Rings, we know Frodo is going to toss the One Ring into the Crack of Doom. Especially after we have already read it once. We all know Perrin is not going to die - but then he cut off a defenceless man's hand, and threatens to dismember him. We know Mat won't die, but there's no telling how many eyes he'll have at the end. We are given a set of characters to care about and we see them change, develop. They don't stay the same. It is there that we see RJ's strength as an author, not in killing off side characters (how would the story have been served by Rhuarc dying at Dumai's Wells? Would it have made those scenes any more powerful, knowing that a fairly minor character was going to die? Maybe, maybe not). By letting us get to know these characters for twelve books, their final fates will be much better than if they were just thrown away at some point for some arbitrary definition of realism. I will agree that killing some characters off in AMoL will make for a stronger ending - because of the emotional investment we have built up in these characters after 12 books with them. Not because it is "more realistic".

[Bob T Dwarf]

A few other world war 2 survivors

 

Subject: FW: Bravery

 

"Never judge a book by its cover."

 

Dialog From a Johnny Carson "Tonight" Show. His guest was Lee Marvin. Johnny said, "Lee, I'll bet a lot of people are unaware that you were a Marine in the initial landing at Iwo Jima and that during the course of that action, you earned the Navy Cross and were severely wounded."

 

Lee Marvin's response was:

"Yeah, yeah ... I got shot square in the ass and they gave me the Cross for securing a hot spot about halfway up Mount Suribachi. The bad thing about getting shot up on a mountain is guys getting shot hauling you down. But Johnny, at Iwo, I served under the bravest man I ever knew. We both got the Cross the same day, but what he did for his Cross made mine look cheap in comparison. The dumb bastard actually stood up on Red Beach and directed his troops to move forward and get the hell off the beach. That Sergeant and I have been life long friends."

 

"When they brought me off Suribachi we passed him and he lit a smoke and passed it to me lying on my belly on the litter. "Where'd they get you Lee?" he asked. "Well Bob, they shot me in the ass and if you make it home before me, tell Mom to sell the outhouse."

 

"Johnny, I'm not lying, Sergeant Keeshan was the bravest man I ever knew!" You now know him as Bob Keeshan. You and the world know him as "Captain Kangaroo"."

 

and

 

Fred Rogers (Mr Rogers) was a Navy Seal, and had 25 confirmed kills. He had tatoos on his arms & thats why he always wore long sleeve sweaters

 

This is a totally bogus story that keeps turning up and few people ever check to see if it could be accurate.

 

1.  Lee Marvin was wounded during the war.  But, at Saipan, not Iwo Jima.

2.  Bob Keeshan was born in June of 1927.  He wasn't yet in the Marine Corps at the time of Iwo in January of 1945.  He couldn't enlist until he turned 18.

3.  Fred Rogers never served in the military.

[benr]

Remember that history is written by the winners.  In essence, the WoT is a history - it is something that basically existed whole (with a few additions!) in RJ's mind before he truly began to set it down for us.  And as such, he is telling us about those that made it through (the heros) and what they went through to get there.  He has cloaked some of the story in mystery, but the main plot line he laid out at the start has continued.  Those that died just weren't a part of the main story.  There are characters like Couladin, who while not truly evil (stupid and misguided, yes) became "not winners" because of t'averan, prophecy, etc. - and were "offed".  A mention by Mr. Ares about FDR's death from natural caused before the end of WW II caused me to think that maybe someone could have passed by that regard.  Caddy doesn't count, even tho the AS all thought she had done it...twice!  A remarkable conclusion, given that death by natural causes doesn't seem all that common.

[Razor]

Bob, I know it wasn't true.  But I thought I would have some fun with an urban ledgend on a fantasy board.  LOL

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yeah.  I probably should have waited to see how many bought it.

[drewk]

I have to say that as much as the Perrin-Faile chase dragged on through two books, it was worth it to get rid of Aram.  He was way too emotionally unstable to do anything of importance later on, and for all that he waved his sword around, he is still a tinker.  I don't think there is a weaker character in the entire series.

[Quiksilver]

1. I didn't like Salidar or anything that happened there. It was one loooong yawn

 

2. Never liked Tanchico or the Bowl of the Winds. Again it felt far too peripheral to the plot and went on far far too long.

 

 

[MsDanya]

hm, its not as much hate as an annoyance, but what bugs me is the lack of communication between the people who are supposed to be allies. Example: Cleansing of Saidin. Nynaeve was there, she's loyal to Egwene. How come she hasnt told Egwene about it? Egwene and the exile tower thinks its the forsaken. Also I dont like the lack of communication between Mat, Rand and Perrin. Things would go so much better for them if they would just bother to send a pidgeon or whatever just every once and a while!