Modification: What parts do you dislike in the WOT?

[anamul]

If what I have seen in the movie Water is typical or near anything typical, then Indian women are screwed.

 

 

Mysterious

 

*lol* I don't know what you saw in Water movie. But yeah, the situation of women in india is in short "savage", "uncivilized", subhuman.....the list goes on.

And I haven't started on the "drowry" yet.And other things. I can probably write a book, with plenty of refferences, pictures etc.

[Daphilip]

Well, Mr Ares. ofcourse I disapprove of polygamy.

 

See, I don't get that... I don't understand how anyone can dislike something if the all the partners does agree with it and it doesn't harm anyone. If Rand had bound them all together and raped them at will, I to would dislike it, but that isn't the problem here.

 

Personally, I couldn't be in a polygamic relationship, but that doesn't mean that I would forbidd it if I were in a position of power. As long as it doesn't harm anyone I can't understand how anyone can dislike anything just because they couldn't do it themselves.

 

It's the same with homosexuality. I live far outside in the country,in a really conservative society. Here, 80% of the grown up population is religious. I'm not a religiuos man, I'm half atheist - half agnostic, and I doesn't share most religios ideas, but the main reason to why I could never be christian is because how the bible condemn homosexuality.

 

Even if it came proof that God actually exist, I could never call my self a christian, it's a matter of principles. The most important thing I've learned from my parents is that everybody should have equal rights, no matter gender, religion, race, sexual orientation etc.

 

One day, they put up a list against homosexuality, and I thought for myself: There's noway anyone is going to sign this!

 

I was wrong...

 

A week later the list was full and since then i've had huge problems accepting the grown up population here. To be fair, it was most old people who was born a LONG time ago who signed it, but it was way to many younger names on it too.

 

I'm not an homosexual myself, just the idea of kissing a guy is grose for me, but to quote Kurt Cobain: I wish I were to irritate all the homophobics out there!

 

To sum up: I don't get how people can dislike anything that has nothing to do with you, doesn't harm anyone, and doesn't force anyone to anything.

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

I say it is better to be a single mum than to be abused by a husband who thinks you are his property

 

That is pretty much obvious. But the number of women in such a relationship is very very small indeed.

 

 

Men and Women in Indida doesn't spend their whole life with same partner because they love each other. In 90% cases, it social coercing,children etc.

A women in India sacrifices a lot in order to keep a relationship going.Most of the Men here love the fact that, they are the boss, they like to order the women around and the women are compelled to obey due to the social structure and inferior concept about women.

 

Why do people think that all women are slaves in Asia? IT IS NOT SO!!!! It is true that such habits were more common in the past but in this age it is really not like that. The one thing that I still dislike about Indian marriages is the dowry. But hopefully that too will disappear with time.

 

 

To sum up: I don't get how people can dislike anything that has nothing to do with you, doesn't harm anyone, and doesn't force anyone to anything.

 

 

If there were no law that people may not go naked in public, and then you have people walking about naked- how would that reflect on you? It doesn't "harm" anyone and has nothing to do with you I suppose and doesn't force anyone into anything. So would you turn a blind eye? You wouldn't worry about the effect on your children? Something may seem like it has nothing to do with you today. But if it goes unchecked then it may be quite different tomorrow.

[Elgee]

I wonder if there's anyone who likes Elayne?  ::)

She'll probably grow up one day and become quite likable ...

 

That being said, look at it this way:

 

What type of husband would Rand make Elayne? Where would his loyalties lie?

She's Queen, trying her best for her country and peoples. What's Rand done for her lately? She can't rely on his advice and support - he'd probably gladly sacrifice her nation and peoples in his fight against the DO.

 

Min: she doesn't have much to lose, but she has to give up her own life to traips around the world after him. What is he doing for her?

 

Aviendha: I'm not really a fan, but again: Being a Wise One, she'll be trying to look after her own people. How will Rand help her? By using up her people like so many throw-away spears ?

 

on to other topic:

 

 

If there were no law that people may not go naked in public, and then you have people walking about naked- how would that reflect on you? It doesn't "harm" anyone and has nothing to do with you I suppose and doesn't force anyone into anything. So would you turn a blind eye? You wouldn't worry about the effect on your children? Something may seem like it has nothing to do with you today. But if it goes unchecked then it may be quite different tomorrow.

 

Are they walking around naked where it's against the law? If so, report them.

If it's not against the law in that place, move somewhere else?

In many places in Africa women walk around bare from the waist up. No-one forces any outsider to do it, though, and those outsiders who don't like it, don't have to live there.

[Daphilip]

Still, I wouldn't have any problems with people going naked in public...

 

When it comes to what effect it has on children: I think overprotecting children does more damage than heals. Both my parents are smokers... I've never smoked a cigarette in my life because i've seen them struggling to quit and I wouldn't wanna go through it myself.

 

Both my parents drink at parties... I've never been drunk, because i've seen in what state they are in and I wouldn't put myself in the same state.

 

I've read a book: "The art of reading minds". In it, it says that instead of telling people what not to do, tell people what to do. It gives a better effect.

 

My parents have never told me not to drink or smoke, and because of that I've never even been tempted to.

 

It's a stated fact that people wants what's forbidden and if we forbade everything we don't like, we're only tempting people to do it.

[Daphilip]

I wonder if there's anyone who likes Elayne?  ::)

She'll probably grow up one day and become quite likable ...

 

That being said, look at it this way:

 

What type of husband would Rand make Elayne? Where would his loyalties lie?

She's Queen, trying her best for her country and peoples. What's Rand done for her lately? She can't rely on his advice and support - he'd probably gladly sacrifice her nation and peoples in his fight against the DO.

 

Of course he would sacrifice Andor if it means winning TG... He wouldn't do it gladly, but considering what happens if he lose it's a pretty small price to pay. And Elayne knows that even though she doesn't like it.

[RAND AL THOR]

It's a stated fact that people wants what's forbidden and if we forbade everything we don't like, we're only tempting people to do it.

 

Then why have a Law System at all?

[Mr Ares]

Or are you offended by anyone not sharing your preferences?

Ah, I come to see your point now.

 

It is not so. Coming back to my example, if you keep your mouth shut while people walk half-naked around you, and eventually more people become bold enough to do so and others try to keep up with the trend etc and eventually you have almost everyone doing just that-how would you take that?

 

There is no need for law and order if we decide to leave everyone to do as they wish. Suppose I am against murdering but someone else isn't. That someone else kills someone. Then what? I just keep quiet and ignore it because he is not sharing my view?

So, why should I have a problem with people choosing to walk around with fewer clothes than I choose to wear myself? In fact, young people these days are inclined to wear less than was the norm when I was growing up, and could easily be seen as "half-naked" (You can see her ankles *shock*horror*indignation*smelling salts for the ladies*). I'm not that bothered. This is comparable to murder is it? Especially given what Maj said, about it not hurting anyone? Who is hurt by polygamous relationships? (If you want to bring up real life examples, be sure that it is the polygamy causing the hurt, as opposed to other factors.).

 

Well, Mr Ares, of course I disapprove of polygamy.

Why of course? You make it sound as if there is something entirely natural about disapproving of polygamy. And back when I was young, polygamy was hardly socially acceptable. Hell, homosexuality has been illegal here for most of my life. Coupled with the fact that I'm straight, does that mean that I disapprove of homosexuality? Does it mean that if I was reading a book and discovered that one of the male characters in the book was attracted to another male character that I would put the book down a refuse to continue reading? No, to both.

 

To sum up: I don't get how people can dislike anything that has nothing to do with you, doesn't harm anyone, and doesn't force anyone to anything.

If there were no law that people may not go naked in public, and then you have people walking about naked- how would that reflect on you? It doesn't "harm" anyone and has nothing to do with you I suppose and doesn't force anyone into anything. So would you turn a blind eye? You wouldn't worry about the effect on your children? Something may seem like it has nothing to do with you today. But if it goes unchecked then it may be quite different tomorrow.

Turn a blind eye? Depends on how good looking the naked people are. Seriously though, if you felt that naked people were in some way harmful to your family, then objecting would be entirely reasonable, given what we're saying. Of course, there is the question of how the children are being harmed? And if no-one is being harmed by some people decideing to wear fewer clothes than you would like then what is the problem (aside from aesthetic grounds)?

 

I wonder if there's anyone who likes Elayne?  ::)

She'll probably grow up one day and become quite likable ...

I don't have a problem with her.

[Mysterious]

To answer the overarching question of this thread, I have to say that I don't vitriolically dislike anything about WOT as more or less being annoyed about certain parts of it. While I don't think it gives a fair representation of what life would have been like in that type of historical period, it was exceedingly more brutal in real life, in the interest of selling the story it atleast tries.

 

I don't have anything personal against Elayne either, I just hate what she represents. Though she does make me wince sometimes I remind myself that she's blond ;)

 

I wonder if there's anyone who likes Elayne?  ::)

She'll probably grow up one day and become quite likable ...

 

That being said, look at it this way:

 

What type of husband would Rand make Elayne? Where would his loyalties lie?

She's Queen, trying her best for her country and peoples. What's Rand done for her lately? She can't rely on his advice and support - he'd probably gladly sacrifice her nation and peoples in his fight against the DO.

 

Of course he would sacrifice Andor if it means winning TG... He wouldn't do it gladly, but considering what happens if he lose it's a pretty small price to pay. And Elayne knows that even though she doesn't like it.

 

I agree that he would. Morally he would have to.

 

WOT is not a nice story. This is WWII idealogical diviseness, of the closest the modern world has come to "Good" vs "Evil", entangled with Vietnam Era messiness of political, economical, social, cultural hodgepodge hammering at each other.

 

Rand's mission is quite simple: To win Tarmon Gai'don with minimum casualties and with the largest remnant of intact civilisation possible for the survivors. That's it.

 

It can be argued that action contrary to those goals in that mission would be "Evil". Failure is not an option. A phyrric victory is not an option. He must do it regardless of personal cost to himself and those that he loves. But he must also keep in mind that those costs i.e. human, have hopes and dreams.

 

Napoleon Bonaparte, "In war, three-quarters turn on personal character and relations; the balance of manpower and materials counts only for the remaining quarter."

 

Being personable matters. Rand's continuance in trying to be inhuman, though understandable, will come back to haunt him. It's hard to fight and die for a concept i.e. The Light, The Creator, Freedom, Love, Peace etc, it's much easier to see it embodied in a human being that one can know and understand. It has being reasonably proposed that this is one of the main reasons why average men, not lunatic fringe, will kill in the name of Christ even though he espoused love and peace.

 

 

 

Mysterious

[Mr Ares]

While I don't think it gives a fair representation of what life would have been like in that type of historical period, it was exceedingly more brutal in real life, in the interest of selling the story it atleast tries.

Question is, what type of historical period do you think it is?

[Mysterious]

Late Medieval-Early Renaissance. It kind of goes from here to there with some mingling depending on geographical region and economic and political stability. All they needed was a good kick to get them rolling as we can see from the Academies that have been set up. They could have truly flourished had any of Hawkwing's successor Kingdoms tried to keep a modicum of his legacy going.

[Elgee]

Of course he would sacrifice Andor if it means winning TG... He wouldn't do it gladly, but considering what happens if he lose it's a pretty small price to pay. And Elayne knows that even though she doesn't like it.

 

My point was that some here find it perfectly acceptable that Rand will sacrifice his personal loyalties for the greater good (myself included), but many of those on here (from what I can see, mostly males) implying that Elayne and Avi will make him bad wives because they will also do that. Nothing is said about Rand making a bad husband, though.

[anamul]

RAND ALTHOR, the situation with women in India is worst than I described. I didn't mean just physical abuse, I meant emotional as well. Just look around you, and think.

 

And as I said, 90% of the Indian couple doesn't love each other. And there is "Dowry", Acid, and other stuff. Arranged marriage, most of the time the girls consent doesn't matter. The worst kind is the "Social coercing".

 

Please don't make me go into this.The entire social structure and thinking needs to be changed in Indian subcontinet.

 

China and Philiphine are a lot better than Indian subcontinent, when it comes to women rights and social position.

 

MR Ares

As for me disliking polygamy, its personal preference. And I don't know why, ask any philosopher why some people disapprove of things they doesn't like.

 

As for running naked and other stuff, there must be a limit to freedom. Without limit there is no freedom, only wilderness. May be thats why people enforce against some issue....like polygamy, running naked, drugs, smoking etc.

That doesn't mean the end of world.

I dislike polygamy, but I still read WOT through.So I guess, best things to do is to live with it.My sister disliked it and stopped reading WOT.

Its her prerogative.

 

I think running naked is outlawed in USA. I seems to remeber watching a police video of arresting a naked guy in the street.  ;D  ;D  ;D

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Late Medieval-Early Renaissance. It kind of goes from here to there with some mingling depending on geographical region and economic and political stability. All they needed was a good kick to get them rolling as we can see from the Academies that have been set up. They could have truly flourished had any of Hawkwing's successor Kingdoms tried to keep a modicum of his legacy going.

I'd put it later, myself. Some of the inventions from Rand's academies (the steam engine in particular) seem to put it on the verge of an industrial revolution.

[Mysterious]

Late Medieval-Early Renaissance. It kind of goes from here to there with some mingling depending on geographical region and economic and political stability. All they needed was a good kick to get them rolling as we can see from the Academies that have been set up. They could have truly flourished had any of Hawkwing's successor Kingdoms tried to keep a modicum of his legacy going.

I'd put it later, myself. Some of the inventions from Rand's academies (the steam engine in particular) seem to put it on the verge of an industrial revolution.

 

That could be true but there isn't any underlining political, cultural and social support for these kind of activities that we have found in the Renaissance period. It all comes from Rand. The political hierarchy doesn't understand the value of knowledge for the sake of knowlegde's own sake. I don't know if the society will make effective use of these inventions like we have. They've been essentially stagnated for a very long time. I don't even know if they have the Scientific Method. To make a point within 500 years we went from shooting arrows at each other to tactical nuclear warheads.

 

Of course he would sacrifice Andor if it means winning TG... He wouldn't do it gladly, but considering what happens if he lose it's a pretty small price to pay. And Elayne knows that even though she doesn't like it.

 

My point was that some here find it perfectly acceptable that Rand will sacrifice his personal loyalties for the greater good (myself included), but many of those on here (from what I can see, mostly males) implying that Elayne and Avi will make him bad wives because they will also do that. Nothing is said about Rand making a bad husband, though.

 

Rand is the International Progressive Movements Poster Boy i.e. Kosmos. Paraphrasing: "There is no nation-state other than Humanity". Countries don't matter, Racial & Sexual divisions don't matter. Humanity matters. Rand is the epitome of a meritrocratic society. He has essentially disenfranchised the nobility and the smarter of them realise this. Rand cares nothing about the old rules of conduct, he acknowledges people for their ability and their loyalty.

 

I think Rand would make a great husband and father. For one his wives would always know that he loves them. Always. How many of us can say we truly know someone loves us? Without the bond I think the family unit would have failed. We've seen from his POV that he becomes a different man when he's with them or just one of them. More calmer, saner, less likely to be depressed. Some of the old Rand shines through in these encounters. Even Lews Therin is different. Quiter, almost sane.

 

For Avi and Elayne, I'm not personally judgemental for the predicament that they're in. They have duties and responsibilities that will most likely be compromised by loving Rand. But think about this if you were an average person in Randland ie a Commoner, who would you give your loyalty and trust to? Queen and Country or for the Messiah? He's fated to die for you and your children. What has your political hierarchy done for you?

 

 

 

Mysterious

[RAND AL THOR]

It would be very difficult to fix Randland in our own world's history. There are many medieval aspects but there are many other things too. The gunpowder issue with Mat/Aludra and the Academy founded by Rand dont match so well with Medival life. And as someone said, the steam engine etc comes from Rand's intervention so it cannot be considered as an aspect that arose from technological advancement in Randland alone. But, it is also true that those ideas were in the minds of the people and they just needed finance to implement them-and Rand provided the finance.

[Mysterious]

I believe gunpowder was common in China when Europe was in the Dark Ages. I'm not sure when the weaponisation of gunpowder was done but Genghis Khan used grenades and rockets extensively is his campaigns.

 

A lot of things can be possible if finance is available. A lot of the technological evolution we now enjoy can be traced back to Cold War Weapons R&D.

 

 

Mysterious

[Lord Nik]

Ive been gone for awhile so ill try to cover a bunch of points and try not to muck it up...

-

What has rand done for elayne?

hes going to save the world...

-

Do you have a problem with polygami?

yes i do but thats my opinion.

-

why?

Its my opinion. Personaly im tired of the whole being accepting of all and if you dont accept everyone were are going to exclude you. By voiceing a seperate opinion such as i dont like the idea of more than one marriage, gays and such people call me, narrow minded, homophobe, unaccepting. I dont have a problem with the people i really dont but i dont like there beliefs, they can dislike mine to their hearts content but give me the respect of believing in it! If somone says "i dont like homosexuality" its not because there narrow minded! not because there jerks its just there opinion!! It amuses me to no end when hypocrits call me "narrow minded" when all they have to do to find one of them is look in a mirror.

-

Elayne?

sucks (in my opinion  ;))

-

Our history and randland?

stop comparing completely different

[Guest Dreadlord]

I agree with you on some points there Nik. Narrow minded people are the ones who tell you what to think, that your oppinion is wrong.

 

QUOTE

Our history and randland?

stop comparing completely different

UNQUOTE

 

This is a grey area for me. While I dont like it when people compare Randland to certain periods in our history-and I HATE it when people compare Rand to Jesus!-RJ has said that Randland is meant to be a possible future and past (the Wheel of Time turns, etc). I understand though, it is fantasy and people shouldnt compare it to real life history because things like the One Power, Ta'veren etc really dont exist. Thats why its called fantasy

[RAND AL THOR]

 

Our history and randland?

stop comparing completely different

 

exactly

[Lord Nik]

Hazah!

I thought I was going to be torn limb from limb from my post but instead I found people agreeing with me!

cool! ;D

[RAND AL THOR]

Hazah!

I thought I was going to be torn limb from limb from my post but instead I found people agreeing with me!

cool! ;D

 

You probably will be by some of the other members. So don't be disappointed! ;D

[Daphilip]

Hazah!

I thought I was going to be torn limb from limb from my post but instead I found people agreeing with me!

cool! ;D

 

I just don't have the strength to argue about it...

 

According to me people should have equal rights no matter religion, gender, sexual orientation, race etc... I've no problems with homophobics when it's just an opinion. But when they start assaulting people who doesn't meet their standards... Thats when I get angry.

 

I've stopped trying to argue with people over the internet about this subject. They're probably not going to change their point of views and i'm certaintly not going to.

 

Lord Nik, if you don't like homosexuals it's up to you, just don't assault them in a dark alley with a knife because he happens to find you attractive (or not, I've never seen you and I'm not a homosexual myself^^)

[Lord Nik]

Hazah!

I thought I was going to be torn limb from limb from my post but instead I found people agreeing with me!

cool! ;D

 

I just don't have the strength to argue about it...

 

According to me people should have equal rights no matter religion, gender, sexual orientation, race etc... I've no problems with homophobics when it's just an opinion. But when they start assaulting people who doesn't meet their standards... Thats when I get angry.

 

I've stopped trying to argue with people over the internet about this subject. They're probably not going to change their point of views and i'm certaintly not going to.

 

Lord Nik, if you don't like homosexuals it's up to you, just don't assault them in a dark alley with a knife because he happens to find you attractive (or not, I've never seen you and I'm not a homosexual myself^^)

again i have no problems with most people! (except some personalites i dont like some people who just suck ::) ) one of my best friends is gay and i havnt knifed him yet! woot!

[muddasssir]

well hi i agree with most of ur thoughts but i'll like to add Egwene and Gawyn to the list i have hated them ever since i have set my eyes on them i know i know i can almost see the daggers drawn and sharpening  with all the so called back bone stuff but she is too stupid to be taken seriously and what about gawyn haven't seen him in long time but these two characters just turn me off i even contemplate skipping and yes i'll be the first one to admit the greatness of RJ in creating characters we love and hate but still  he could have put an iota of common sense into her