Modification: What parts do you dislike in the WOT?

[RAND AL THOR]

Congratulations muddassir for returning to the topic at hand!

 

Isn't it astounding how practically every single thread goes off topic? I'm not complaining since I do it all the time ;). 'Tis the nature of the human mind.

[Lord Nik]

ill nature of the human mind you!

what? eh? oh right  ::)

yea elayne still sucks ;)

[Celdiruen]

Alright... let's see....

 

Faile can go die in a fire. So can Elayne, Gawyn, and Egwene. And Nynaeve too, but only sometimes  :P

 

Gawyn is seriously such an idiot, imo.

 

I just want Rand to stick him with his sword, put on a sheepish grin and say "Woops, I'm sorry" to Elayne.

Perrin has also become far more boring to read.

 

Oh, and the most important thing. Need moar Mat chapters!

[Lord Nik]

Alright... let's see....

 

Faile can go die in a fire. So can Elayne, Gawyn, and Egwene. And Nynaeve too, but only sometimes  :P

 

Gawyn is seriously such an idiot, imo.

 

I just want Rand to stick him with his sword, put on a sheepish grin and say "Woops, I'm sorry" to Elayne.

Perrin has also become far more boring to read.

 

Oh, and the most important thing. Need more* Mat chapters!

you are so right on absolutly everything you said it is amazing!

ten thousand high fives to you!

[Celdiruen]

Oh, and another thing. Can't believe I forgot this...

 

I can put up with quite a bit of sexism, superiority, people being naive, but come on! The men might act like idiots sometimes, but more often than not they're just trying to do something they think is right.

 

The women on the other hand, are a different story. Elayne isn't the only one with her nose in the air. Practically all of them are, imo. At first it was funny, but sometimes I want to punch the book or throw it at something... They are so full of themselves, it leaves me speechless sometimes.

 

Maybe that was what RJ was going for when he wrote it, but I dunno.

[RAND AL THOR]

::)Half the main characters seem to be on peoples' hate list. Way to go RJ! :o

 

The only thing I hate about Gawyn is his attitude towards Rand about Morgase

s death (that attitude is justified but annoying nevertheless) and his stance in the Breaking of the Tower.

 

Faile can go die in a fire.

 

;D LOL

 

Oh, and the most important thing. Need moar Mat chapters!

 

omg, more than half of KOD was on Mat. While I do like him, in KOD, the plot doesn't progress much with him. Fun to read- but stretches the book. I was personally looking forward to moer RAND RAND RAND RAND especially since he is all but absent in CoT but it is almost just the same in KOD. >:(

 

Still more unfortunately, I have come to realize not to expect much Rand in AMOL (apart from TG) because there are SO many side plots to cover. I loved the first few books where the POV was nearly always with Rand.

[Snowy Dawn]

``To make a point within 500 years we went from shooting arrows at each other to tactical nuclear warheads.''

 

How about a more peaceful comparison: e.g. in two hundred years we went from riding on horseback to landing humans on the moon and returning them safely to Earth.

[Snowy Dawn]

``A lot of the technological evolution we now enjoy can be traced back to Cold War Weapons R&D.''

 

Some yes, but much also, IIRC, the microchip, to the Space program or civilian R&D. As for cost effectiveness, consider the huge sums handed out to the military over the last 60 years vs., say, the amount allocated to NASA over the same period.

 

Historically warfare has spurred technological advance, but so has more peaceful pursuits. The Wright Bros. were not engaged in a war, e.g.

 

I detect a certain affinity in the observations made by Mysterious to some of the more bellicose inhabitants of the WOT, not all of whom walk in the light :-(

[RAND AL THOR]

I would like to add one more thing to this thread.

 

If Nynaeve/Elayne/Egwene/Min sniff just one more time I'm going to declare them all a pack of dogs.

[Razor]

::)Half the main characters seem to be on peoples' hate list. Way to go RJ! Shocked

 

Part of RJ's genius is to create good characters that have flaws and bad characters that are often likable.

[Mysterious]

It's just easier to get finance for R&D if you talk to the military.

 

``A lot of the technological evolution we now enjoy can be traced back to Cold War Weapons R&D.''

 

Some yes, but much also, IIRC, the microchip, to the Space program or civilian R&D. As for cost effectiveness, consider the huge sums handed out to the military over the last 60 years vs., say, the amount allocated to NASA over the same period.

 

Historically warfare has spurred technological advance, but so has more peaceful pursuits. The Wright Bros. were not engaged in a war, e.g.

 

I detect a certain affinity in the observations made by Mysterious to some of the more bellicose inhabitants of the WOT, not all of whom walk in the light :-(

 

The internet itself was made by the military and the usefulness of this was exploited by college professors accross various universities in the USA.

 

The microchip was invented at Texas Instruments who had extensive contracts from the U.S. Navy and U.S. Army Signal Corps. The concept of the microchip was conceived by a radar scientist, Geoffrey W.A. Dummer (1909-2002), working for the Royal Radar Establishment of the British Ministry of Defence.

 

Most NASA, though not all, scientists bounce from DARPA and back. Considering the amount of fmr. military personnel at NASA can you truly call it a civilian agency?

 

I'll give you the Wright Bros. but both Boeing and EADS (parent company of Airbus) receive massive R&D funding from both the EU and US. Do you really think it was just for the benefit of cheap travel?

 

All you have to do is follow the money and you find out that most of the projects funded by the government, though not all, were funded on the express purpose of giving that nation's military an edge.

 

Private sector finance for R&D projects has only made a substantial impact quite recently with the advent of venture capital. The computing, telecommunication and biotech industries are the only sectors of the economy that I can think of that can survive with only private sector funding.

 

 

 

Mysterious

 

Edit: Took out the capital letters

[RAND AL THOR]

mysterious, I took one look at all those capital letters and almost closed my browser!

[Asmo]

I'd change some very specific instances. Make Nynaeve's Balefire ressurect the Aiel, to introduce that aspect from early on. I think RJ hadn't even thought of that when he wrote that scene. I'd also limit the spreading of knowledge of new weaves and what they can do wtih them over the later books - it seems that everyone is teaching everyone everything. I'd go into more detail over the Cleansing and several other things. I'd also add some more everyday circumstances for the main cast to make them more believable, and I'd take some of the spotlight off them. Furthermore, I'd try to balance everyone out, and not make the Aes Sedai look like complete idiots when other groups come into play etc.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Another thing Im not keen on is at first women could always sense the ability to channel in another woman, yet later on, after Moghedien was captured, we find out you can mask the ability to channel, which seems like RJ added that just to stop every Aes Sedai in Salidar fro figuring out who Moghedien was. And also, it turns out you can make it so other female channelers can still sense the ability in you, but you can lessen your apparant strength, making yourself seem weaker, which makes it much more convenient that Mesaana can now be anyone in the White Tower. It seems like those two things were added late on, when RJ thought "Oh crap, theres two bits I didnt think about," so he made up another two tricks with the Power, specifically to hide the two Forsaken.

[RAND AL THOR]

RJ conveniently had a lot of knowledge lost in the Breaking and had the Forsaken know all that.

 

So RJ can put in any weave he likes to keep the story in track as long as it originates from the Forsaken. I do agree with Dreadlord. They appear to be late additions but RJ has covered his tracks very well.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

It seems like those two things were added late on, when RJ thought "Oh crap, theres two bits I didnt think about," so he made up another two tricks with the Power, specifically to hide the two Forsaken.

In TDR 25, when Egwene comes fac to face with the fake Else Grinwell she doesn't notice the other girl suddenly being freakishly strong. When she sees Lanfear, she doesn't notice her being a channeler either. So it's possible both these tricks were used early on.

[Snowy Dawn]

``It seems like those two things were added late on, when RJ thought "Oh crap, theres two bits I didnt think about," so he made up another two tricks with the Power, specifically to hide the two Forsaken.''

 

Considering the extraordinary amount of detail that he was juggling in writing the series, one should not be surprised if he had to do a bit of improvising now and again :-)

[Jay Solace]

**WARNING** There is a lot of wah-wah ranting ahead; reader beware.

 

Point the Firstest- I actually prefer RJ's female characters to his male characters.  Well, at least I prefer the 'main female' to the 'main male' characters. I find the parts of the series where the ladies are interacting with each other, without a male character in sight, to be some of the best parts of the series.  It's generally only when the guys show up that the girls start levitating the bed, spinning their heads, and vomiting pea-soup all over the place. I find RJ's men, especially the Three Big Boys, to be whiny, excessively introverted, simpletons.  Heck, all three words apply to all of the 3BBs but if you want me to break it up: whiney (Rand), overly introverted (Perrin), simpletons (Mat). If they didn't have super-powers and couldn't stab things then they would, each and every one, be useless people. 

 

Point the Secondest- Point the Firstest isn't a complaint, just an personal observation/opinion.  RJ's men being a bunch of doofs isn't something I love, but neither is it something I hate.  I never exactly required much more of my literary characters than super-powers and/or the ability to stab things.

 

Point the Actual Pointest- I do have an actual complaint and an actual character I deeply loathe: Lan. I freakin' despise Lan.  I seem to be alone here, but I don't care.  He's a huge jerk who saves all of his manners for women.  That would be irritating on its own, but no real reason to dislike a character (its, y'know, just flavor...) but every other male in the series, if they don't outright love Lan for it, at the very least, greatly respect him for it. All that and the man is supposed to be an inherent 'King Among Men.' 

 

It's, I dunno, like a bunch of 1950's television housewives electing some other, battered, housewife President because of the "Least Burnt Pot-Roasts" and "Highest Heels Worn While Doing the Housework," platforms she ran on.

 

Lan has a magic hidey cloak and scouts ahead, pwnzers trollocs off-screen, chases girls half his age, and makes that Hummingbird Kiss the livin' H out of that Flower, all like nobody's business.  Well, that's great, whatever, but it makes me worship the ground he walks on, why?

 

"Oh, Lan," says Random WoT Boy, "You're so obviously dangerous; I man-love you." Pah! Scaring the heck out of men while women give him the respect you'd give a wet Kleenex, do you know what that makes Lan? An eyelash curler.  All hail ye, noble device of torturous appearance mine wife keeps in the right-hand drawer of the bathroom sink. Rule me and lead me to victory against the forces of the Dark. And also the forces of unsightly, straight eyelashes.

 

"But Jay," sayeth my aforementioned wife, "Lan's barely in the books. How can you form such a strong opinion?" Well, when I'm at the beach and I purchase a delicious hot-dog, my delicious hot-dog can barely have any sand on it, but it will turn each bite of my delicious hot-dog into undelicious suck.

 

I think the moment I finally slapped the blade of my mental shovel against the mental compost-pile,  which I buried Lan under in my mental brain, was a moment from The Shadow Rising.  It was when Nynaeve was punching Lan's feelings in the throat, as she was tactfully explaining her leaving Tear without him, and he durn well shows her - by kissing her.  Imagining anyone kissing Lan's salty, leathery, what-we'll-call-his face would be enough to make me throw up in my mouth a little by itself but... yeah, just... yeah.

 

"But Jay," sayeth my wife (she's a sayether, my wife is), "There's that Sea-folk oathy thing Nynaeve   swore during the wedding, with the getting to be boss behind closed doors, and the so forth." 

 

Okay, look, when you're only King behind closed doors, you ain't King.  Rival diplomats and invading armies don't usually do you the service of advancing on your kingdom from your smoking den out, so that you're allowed to have a spine when the negotiations start.  And, I'm sorry, but "Tee-hee.  If Nynaeve tells me to pick my boots up, I'm totally not gonna."  That's Lan standing his ground?  How ... sad and passive-aggressive.  Yeah, I've owned cats and dogs that sometimes left messes, despite what I told 'em, and I'd already had their balls taken off too.

 

In closing- Seriously,this was a great series produced with a lot of talent.  I just personally wish Lan was flayed and forced to watch while sea-gulls ate his skin.  Nynaeve has her problems, but she could do better. There, I'm all out of Hator-ade.  :)

 

P.S. I'm not that crazy about the effects on Perrin's character after meeting up with Faile, but I'll never hate her. Because, you see, she started mocking Lan right off the bat.

 

[Elgee]

That was one of the funniest things I've ever read, Jay Solice  :D

 

Please do some more ?  ;D

[RAND AL THOR]

Rand is whiny?

 

:o :o :o

 

 

P.S. I'm not that crazy about the effects on Perrin's character after meeting up with Faile, but I'll never hate her. Because, you see, she started mocking Lan right off the bat.

 

This was darn amusing.

[Jay Solace]

Rand is whiny?

 

Y- ... yes? ??? He's ... he's kind of tall, too?  Were these secrets? I honestly don't know if you're suprised by my assertation or being ironic with me.

 

He's like, "Luke Skywalker" whiny, if that clarifies where I'm coming from, at all. I think its been hitting me the most in his interactions with Morraine.  You can't please this kid!  First Morraine won't tell him enough and then he can't avoid her enough.  :)

 

Stupid woman, with her concerns about the most poweful force on the Wheel being in the hands of a backwoods kid destined to break the world and go mad and stuff.  Who would think that a woman who spent all her life guiding the world from a society of magical oligarchs would be so bossy!  Gosh!

[RAND AL THOR]

Rand is whiny?

 

Y- ... yes? ??? He's ... he's kind of tall, too?  Were these secrets? I honestly don't know if you're suprised by my assertation or being ironic with me.

 

 

I am most certainly suprised by your assertion. Rand is certainly not 'whiny.' What made you say that?

[Avery]

...chases girls half his age

 

Who has Lan chased? The only 2 women we've seen him intimate with, he tried very hard to push away.

[Jay Solace]

To quote my oh so quotable wife:

 

Morraine: "Rand, you're important, stay with me."

Rand: "But I don't wanna stay with you." *wanders off*

 

M: "Rand, you're the dragon reborn."

R: "But I don't wanna be the dragon reborn." *runs away from the Aes Sedai in Shienar*

 

M: "Rand, let me help you."

R: "But I don't wanna be helped." *ignores Morraine for 4 books*

 

M: kills Lanfear and saves the day.

R: Waaaah, my Aes Sedai is gone!

 

In the later books he seems to do most of his whining internally, which wouldn't be so bad, except that we can hear him.

 

 

Okay, now in my own words...  :) I've actually got the Shadow Rising right here at my hand. I am just gonna put in everything Rand actually says out loud once we get past his nightmare: <Ahem>

 

"What are you doing here? There were Aiel guarding that door when I went to sleep. How did you come past them. Summoned? I didn't summon anybody. My Lady... Why would I summon you at this time of night?Tomorrow, I will be happy to talk with you. It would be better if you return to your own bedchamber, my Lady. It ... it is really too late for talking. Tomorrow. In daylight.  My Lady... I am promised to Egwene al'Vere, my Lady. It is time for you to go, my Lady.  Do you think I'm made of stone, woman? Much as I regret it we will not speak again, except in public my Lady.  In fact, it is best you arrangeyour journey back to Mayene as soon as possible.I promise you that Tear will not trouble Mayene again. You have my word. I am flattered, my Lady. Believe me, I am.  But it would not be fair to you.  I cannot give you what you deserve."

 

Then his bedroom mirror attacks him.

 

Now, what I've done there is very much the definition of taking what someone has said out of context.  See, I've removed all context.  What Rand is, is very flustered that a member of roughly 51% of the human population has shown up, all sexual agression-like, in Rand's room when he was not expecting said up showing. That's very flustering. The boy performs adequately under the circumstances, admirably even.  But he's also sniveling a bit.  Berelain deserves nothing better for her ambush than a footprint on her butt.  However Rand feels naturally apologetic, few men outright enjoy dissapointing women, so that's fine. But he also expresses alarm and regret that things can't be different while constantly being deferential.  Considering Rand's station, which he is not used to yet, that's whiney. And this is just the first thing I grabbed from the book I have right next to me.  I'm gonna randomly flip the books pages until I see Rand's name again...

 

Pg 948.  ((I'm gonna slip a little context into this one but cut it up a bit so I don't wear out my fingers...))

 

Egwene: "You've not given me any chance to speak to you since Cold Rocks, Rand."

 

He said nothing; she was Aes Sedai now, and not just because she called herself one.  He wondered if she had spied on his dreams too. Her face looked tight, her dark eyes tired.

 

Egwene: "Do not keep to yourself, Rand. You do not fight alone.  Others do battle for you, too."

 

Frowning, he tried not to look at her.  His first thought was of Edmond's Field and Perrin, but how could she know where Perrin had gone.

 

Rand: "What do you mean?"

 

Morraine: "I fight for you, as does Egwene."

 

A look flashed between the two women. ((Morraine says some more inspiring stuff but Rand doesn't seem to hear it, so I'm not gonna type it.))

 

Morraine: "Since I cannot go with you into Alcair Dal, let Lan accompany you. One more pair of eyes to watch your back."

 

Rand did not think he was supposed to have seen that look pass from Moirraine to Egwene. So they had a secret to keep from him. Egwene did

have Aes Sedai eyes, dark and unreadable.

 

Rand: "Let Lan stay with you, Morraine. Far Dareis Mai carries my honor"

 

Now, here the boy is being petulant, withdrawn, callow, snarky, and paranoid. But hey, he's slowly going crazy and has the weight of the world on his shoulders. It's understandable.  But to be even justifiably paranoid (versus cautious or oblivious) is to be obsessed with yourself in a negative way.  Which is whiny.  He just earned about every tantrum Egwene (who's been rather beleaguered in this thread) ever threw at him.  And he earned them in like 2 MINUTES! In 2 minutes I just randomly pulled out of a random book!

 

I'm actually not dissing Rand.  I had to read like, I dunno, 200 pages total about Lan, and I needed to whine so bad that I complained on the internet.  Lamenting your problems is human nature.  This very thread is a place to piss and moan. I*ro*neee!

 

I mean, hey, you want to know something wonderful about this series?  The best antagonist isn't the pie-in-the-sky Sauronish Dark One.  He mostly assaults people with bad dreams, giving him roughly the same prowess as the fast-food chalupa I had last week.  The best antagonist, for Rand and everyone else, is Rand.  He's going crazy and if he weren't going crazy he'd STILL be one hell of a fish out of water. I think its why RJ spends so much time in his character's heads.  They all tend to be their own worst enemies and Rand is everyone's worst enemy, after a fashion. I think that's a brilliant move on RJ's part.  It's a bit like if not only Frodo had to fight Frodo's desire for the Ring, but everyone had to fight Frodo's desire for the Ring.

 

Batman whines about his parents. Bruce Banner whines about the Hulk. Spider-man, Samwise Gamgee, Luke Skywalker, and Rand ... they all whine pretty much about everything.  If someone can't see Rand whining, I can't make them see it.  But boy, I sure as heck see it. And sometimes it gets on my nerves but, while it may keep him from being my favorite character, it's not like I'd do anything to change it.

 

[Jay Solace]

Who has Lan chased? The only 2 women we've seen him intimate with, he tried very hard to push away.

 

I'm only referring to Nynaeve and, let me put it this way:

 

Nyn was in her room minding her own business. Lan barged in and insisted she bring him with because Nynaeve is just so dang helpless. [sic] He screams, if she dies, he'll die right after her, and then he kisses her. I believe that was their first kiss.

 

Pushing away? You're doing it wrong.

 

Heck, his very first 'refusal,' was about not having her wear funeral clothes at their wedding or sommat. I already love you so much I can't bear to hurt you? I'd marry you here and now but there's a slim chance I might make you sad some day? Pthpppt. 

 

If he'd really wanted her gone, he would have said: You're fat, I'm homosexual, and trollocs bit off my genitals in the war.