Modification: What parts do you dislike in the WOT?

[Ashaman Kovan]

I'm sure it's already been said...Well maybe not. Some people might be offended but I often can not stand the way all the women in the series are portrayed as so superior and full of themselves. Isn't there any even women in WoT? Or do they all have some kind of personality disorder. From berelain to Aviendah, Nynaeve to Faile. They all have some kind of highly annoying highly unnatractive personality trait. Idk...Maybe it's just me. I'm sure there will be some people who think that those remarks are sexist but I promise they're not.

[RAND AL THOR]

Jay Solace, I am absolutely flabbergasted that you bothered so much with so little a thing.

 

You must realize that throughout Book 1, Moiraine kept a tight hold on Rand, didn't give him enough info and tried to control his choices. He in turn believed that she was trying to control him (which she did).

When he is in a position of power, he no longer wants her to control his every move , and now he is able to do something about it - so he shuns her somewhat. Perfectly understandable. He doesn't despise her nor does he want her removed, he only wants to leesen her influence over him (because he believes her motives are for the good of the Tower first).

 

When Egwene and Moiraine are exchanging glances, you can hardly expect him to trust what they are saying. Egwene also conceals stuff from Rand in Book 4 onwards which she did not do before, so it is natural that his trust in her fails.

 

A bootmark in the @$$ may be what Berelain deserved but you might want to think of the political outcome of such a thing. By treating Berelain as a woman and gently getting rid of her, he brought himself a powerful ally-without whom he would have had much difficulty. And as you already said, Rand was not yet used to being the Dragon Reborn. Do you remember his actions towards the girls who advanced on him in Cairhien in book 5?

 

Rand didn't truly want Moiraine removed. He only wanted to lesser her influence. So mourning for her after her 'death' is natural.

 

Your examples merely illustrate a human's natural emotions and characteristics. Rand is not 'whiny.'

 

Furthermore, about the Lan matter: He tried to avoid her as much as possible in the first 3 books. In that scene in book 4, he has totally lost control and becomes obsessively in love with Nynaeve. Love isn't as hard to sacrifice as you may believe.

[Raistlin]

There is too little Rand in the last two books. he is my Favorite character. He has all but taken a back seat these days.

Faile! Could she die in the last book please. She needs to go. She has almost killed my like for perrin.

 

[DuDZiK]

I sort of agree with what RAND AL THOR said to Jay. While I do appreciate the addage "to each their own", Jay, you seem a tad... zealous, in your belief that Rand is whiny and Lan is to be loathed.

 

Now don't get me wrong, your sarcasm and witty rants had me chuckling at more than a few spots, but some of the things you said and tried to argue just seemed to me like you knew what you wanted to believe. By that I mean, you can look at a passage and instantly turn it into evidence that proves your point, where others will look at it totally differently. Now, understanding that we're talking of opinions here so EVERYONE will do the same sort of thing, as I said you're a bit more extreme than most.

 

Right then, that was me trying to be as accomodating and objective as possible, and now for something completely different:

 

LAN?! Are you freaking KIDDING me?!  :P

[Jay Solace]

There's no bother, unless you mean my bothering to type out the text.  And that wasn't a bother either (except it's hard to hold a paper-back open and type one-handed). I don't think I actually implied in my post that Rand did something unnatural or unemotional.  The unemotional side of his personality doesn't seem to really take hold until later.  The quotes I grabbed, as I mentioned, were scooped up at random from the only book I had with me at the office. I didn't remember the Berelain scene as proof of Rand's whiny or angsty (wangsty!) nature.  I started with the first things he said out loud in the book I had. And then to, sort of, pin down the impression that he gives me, I randomly flipped back and forth through the book until I saw his name, not wanting to just continue from the point I was at.  And then I put down what was happening.

 

If someone seems confused about how I could see Rand as whiny, well, I'll try to explain myself.  If they can't see my answer as an explanation, then they can just go on wondering how I came to such a crazy conclusion. I would like to point out that seeing Rand as the epitomical whiny guy was only casually mentioned in my Lan rant and I was asked what made me say Rand was whiny. I could fish for more and more quotes and everyone can give their spin but reading a book is an impressionistic experience and, in all honesty, the character and the story are going to be more than just the sum of their parts. And my impression of Rand is very clear.

 

While I do appreciate the addage "to each their own", Jay, you seem a tad... zealous, in your belief that Rand is whiny and Lan is to be loathed.

 

Zealous? Zealots want converts! Do you think I have some crazy need to be right and have others believe me? This whole thing started with me hating Lan.  That's not right! I shouldn't hate people! You think I want folks to agree with me so the entire board can hang effigies of Lan and beat him like a piñata until the stone-flavored candy falls out? I would not eat that candy! It came out of Lan! I hate that guy!

 

If Lan was really, and I mean really, an inexcusable character... RJ wouldn't have him in his story. I wouldn't have to say, "I feel like I'm alone here," because then I wouldn't be alone here!  Everyone would wonder how such a good writer could write such a character and all his friends would have had some weird "Lan-intervention" where they would have told him that they love him and his story very much but he needs to exorcise this "Lan" abomination.  I thought it was clear, or at least clearly implied, than even I think I'm a little nuts to hate Lan so much.

 

I attempt, and always will, to present myself through text in an interesting and hopefully entertaining manner. You will, occasionally, get some emphasis. <- You see what I did there?

 

I'm not alone in associating Rand with whining and moping and such, but you'd probably find the mindset more common among folks who don't like WoT, rather than those who do. And there's no real reason to immerse yourself in a negative environment like a group who pointedly doesn't like something that you do. But!! I can't resist pointing out that I didn't create the word "wangst" and Rand's listed as an example of it here.

[DuDZiK]

While I do appreciate the addage "to each their own", Jay, you seem a tad... zealous, in your belief that Rand is whiny and Lan is to be loathed.

 

Zealous? Zealots want converts! Do you think I have some crazy need to be right and have others believe me? This whole thing started with me hating Lan.  That's not right! I shouldn't hate people! You think I want folks to agree with me so the entire board can hang effigies of Lan and beat him like a piñata until the stone-flavored candy falls out? I would not eat that candy! It came out of Lan! I hate that guy!

 

rofl calm down Jay, I did say "to each their own", I just meant that you seemed to put in more effort to explain why you don't like Lan than people would normally. Personally, I'm rather apathetic in my feelings towards him. I'm no Lan-fanboy, but I don't dislike him either.

 

I'm not alone in associating Rand with whining and moping and such, but you'd probably find the mindset more common among folks who don't like WoT, rather than those who do. And there's no real reason to immerse yourself in a negative environment like a group who pointedly doesn't like something that you do. But!! I can't resist pointing out that I didn't create the word "wangst" and Rand's listed as an example of it here.

 

Oh I agree with you, Rand is, or rather can be, incredibly whiny. That said, some of your examples of him being whiny I don't find whiny at all. ;)

[RAND AL THOR]

some of your examples of him being whiny I don't find whiny at all. ;)

 

Yup

[Dbob]

HE DID IT AGAIN!!!!

 

So I just finished re-reading the part where Rand – once again – sacrifices his girlfriend to spare his precious feelings. That would be – drum roll. Cairhein. Every time I read the series, the suspense builds, in the back of my mind I keep thinking, he can’t possibly be that selfish, that self centered, that fragile, then the pages turn, and he does it every damn time. DEAR GOD MAN GRAB SOME SAC AND KILL THE FORSAKEN!

 

But no, he’s just too precious.

 

I used to like Rand, but my god, even being special Rand, are his sensibilities so delicate that he’s willing to sacrifice lives for them? Then yes folks, he whines about it endlessly, books later he’s still whining about it.

 

It’s always so devastating, especially since one of my favorite parts of the entire series is the scene with Ingtar. That was the Rand who was my boy. Not the mewling, list ridden, self involved to the point of paralysis, no perspective, can’t get the job done, emotional whiny baby who’s willing to let a forsaken KILL his girlfriend, ‘cause of course, she’s not as important as his feeeeliiingss…….

 

ARGHHHHH!!

 

I don’t care who you are, you threaten to kill my girl, I’ll smoke your a** (if she doesn’t get you first)

 

What is it with R.J. and his need to emasculate his male leads?

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

What the hell are you talking about? ??? Are you talking about Lanfear at the docks?

[RAND AL THOR]

HE DID IT AGAIN!!!!

 

So I just finished re-reading the part where Rand – once again – sacrifices his girlfriend to spare his precious feelings.

 

What instance is this?

[Mr Ares]

HE DID IT AGAIN!!!!

 

So I just finished re-reading the part where Rand – once again – sacrifices his girlfriend to spare his precious feelings.

What instance is this?

And what was the previous one?

 

What is it with R.J. and his need to emasculate his male leads?

I think you just made it up.

[Hybrid]

I think he's talking about the docks.  And he hardly let Lanfear kill Aviendha and Egwene.  As soon as she acted, he moved to stop her.  After which she turned her attention on him and he was too busy fighting for his life.  I hate the whole woman thing with Rand, Mat, and Perrin, but at least they've got values, you know?

[Dbob]

Yes I’m talking about the docks and he does the same thing every time I read it. That gratuitously histrionic, self-absorbed, disproportionately extreme attitude about women he’s been written with is the most annoying thing about the entire series.

 

I don’t call it values to be so self involved that you become emotionally paralyzed and therefore can’t distinguish which is more important – killing a forsaken, or salving your precious neurosis.

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

Okay...Well when you become the savior of the world and then are forced with a decision to make regarding killing a women come and talk to us. ;D

[Dbob]

Whatever dude, he's not going to be the savior of much if he can't stop crying long enough to take out a female super villain. He's just lucky the author didn't let the D.O. send exclusively female villains after him and everyone he cares about. Would render him completely impotent and worthless, that.

 

His whole shtick about women plus his puerile list, is totally narcissistic and self indulgently maudlin to the point of reducing him to a quivering puddle of useless goo every time he contemplates it.

 

[RAND AL THOR]

HE DID IT AGAIN!!!!

 

So I just finished re-reading the part where Rand – once again – sacrifices his girlfriend to spare his precious feelings. That would be – drum roll. Cairhein. Every time I read the series, the suspense builds, in the back of my mind I keep thinking, he can’t possibly be that selfish, that self centered, that fragile, then the pages turn, and he does it every damn time. DEAR GOD MAN GRAB SOME SAC AND KILL THE FORSAKEN!

 

 

 

Please explain the parts in bold. I truly don't get what you're saying. When did he sacrifice his gf? Quite the opposite.

 

Assuming that you're going on about Rand's weakness with killing females- that is perfectly fine. He grew up in a world where fighters are nearly always men and he was taught to defend a woman's life at all costs. While I agree that Rand should have the self control to murder the Forsaken, you are ranting too much.

 

The best MC is one who has a weakness. An all powerful superhero MC who has no regrets at all and goes blasting their enemies left and right and centre isn't very fun to read out.

[Dbob]

I’m ranting just as much as I mean to rant. If you want to think he’s all noble and tragic, go right ahead, no sweat off my back. This scene annoyed me the first time I read it, it annoyed me this time, and it’ll annoy me next time I read it.

 

Rand knew Lanfear was going to kill Avi, knew it ‘cause she told him, he knew he could kill Lanfear, and whined about how he knew that, and yet he couldn’t bring himself to harm her. Follow the logic here, he knew the evil super villain was going to kill his girlfriend, because the evil super villain told him so, he knew he could kill said evil super villain, but he won’t stop the super villain, why? Because his precious feelings would get hurt, because his feelings were more important than the world. At one point he says something about that, how he was going to die, and the world was going to die.

 

AND YET, he couldn’t be a man and get the job done.

 

I don’t find that noble or tragic. Well, maybe tragic.

 

Look, I’ve been over this before and had the long exchanges. I don’t find this “weakness” anything but annoying and childishly self indulgent, not to mention monumentally lacking in sound judgment and perspective. Nor do I find a hero who bitches and moans, and won’t act a very tolerable read either. It would have been much better if he’d done what needed to be done and then cried about it.

 

I’m not going into pointlessness of a discussion about the whole “harm a woman” issue, been there too.

[Mr Ares]

but he won’t stop the super villain

Actually, he will. But if said "super villain" happens to be a woman, he will attempt to stop her using non-lethal force. Stop and kill do not necessarily mean the same thing.

 

so delicate that he’s willing to sacrifice lives for them?

Which lives did he sacrifice?

 

I don’t care who you are, you threaten to kill my girl, I’ll smoke your a** (if she doesn’t get you first)

I've known psychopaths with more restraint wrt murder.

 

He's just lucky the author didn't let the D.O. send exclusively female villains after him and everyone he cares about. Would render him completely impotent and worthless, that.

You equate impotence and worthlessness with an inability to murder people? Yeah, Gandhi was completely impotent. Martin Luther King really needed to "grab some sac". The Dalai Lama sure is worthless. Not to mention the obvious point that even if Shai'tan only sent women after him, he would be left in the impossible situation of either getting other people to do the killing, or defeating these women with non-lethal means.

 

AND YET, he couldn’t be a man and get the job done.

Again, this curious confusion of manliness and murder.

 

totally narcissistic

From what I remember of his encounter with the Bubble of Evil in early TSR, he wasn't exactly loving his reflection. Also, how is Rand's behaviour narcissistic?

[Guest Dreadlord]

Heres a saying I heard once, and I couldnt agree with it more. The best heroes have faults.

 

Over the whole series Rand develops into the hard, unfeeling weapon we all know him as, and we have seen many clues that he is failing, that he must change in order for him to avoid destroying the world himself after he saves it. The way I see it, Rands inability to kill women is one of the few emotional things he can still feel, and so he presses that so hard into himself that you can practically see the scar it has made on his soul. Sure, when Lanfear was about to kill Aviendha I was thinking "KILL HER, RAND! DO IT! DOOOOOOO IIIIIIIT!" as much as anyone else, but the fact that he didnt-couldnt-makes him a better character, because as I said, the best heroes have faults.

 

Fair enough, all are entitled to their oppinions as I have stressed in debates concerning Faile, but I think Rands inability to kill women makes him more human and less the flawless superhero that always wins, and that scene is one of my favorites in the series

[Hybrid]

Look, I don't think Rand's attitude towards women is the most practical.  But I don't see why you have a problem with his actions at the docks.

 

First, as I pointed out, he moved immediately to help Egwene and Aviendha.  Hence, they lived.  RJ uses a lot of description, but the opening events at the docks happened in a matter of seconds, regardless of the number of paragraphs describing it.

 

Second, he had a choice to save his own life or Lanfear's.  He chose not to kill her and instead tried to capture her.  Yet you're calling him self-centered, when that decision nearly cost him his life.

 

Third, he's not the only character to not instantly kill a Forsaken on the spot.  Look at Nynaeve and Moghedien.  Cadsuane and co. and Semirhage.  The people of the wetlands believe in things such as the law.  And the law states you can't just go out and kill someone because you think you're justified.  That's not quote, "being a man," unquote.  That's called being a vigilante, and that sort of attitude backfires.  It means that you're no better than the people you're fighting, because you place exactly the same lack of value in life as your enemy.

 

Finally, he is the one who believes he could have killed Lanfear.  Yet from Moiraine's point of view, Lanfear was looking down at Rand, who was laughing and crying at the same time, unable to do anything.  Every attempt he made to shield her was stopped.  And she almost severed him.  He might think he could have killed her, but that's a result of his belief that he should have acted (so that Moiraine wouldn't have died), not that he could have.  He was fighting on the defensive from the start of the battle and never was able to threaten Lanfear in the least. 

 

I don't see Rand as narcissistic either.  The raw truth is, he is the reason humanity will win the Last Battle.  He's doing what he has to to get them there intact.  Period.  It's easy to call someone who is destined to be the reason Good wins as narcissistic, but how else should he deal with it?  Especially in a world where the one woman he could trust is dead, his allies are few and scattered, and his enemies are everywhere.

 

I’m not going into pointlessness of a discussion about the whole “harm a woman” issue, been there too.

Why?  No discussion is pointless, unless you're utterly unwilling to learn other people's views.  That's called being close-minded.

[Dbob]

Yeah, yeah, yeah guys.

 

(edit: the following paragragh is for Mr. Aries)

 

It remains that this isn’t real life, this is fiction, it isn’t deep philosophy or scripture most holy, it's entertainment, and no amount of climbing up on the wrong soapboxes is going to make me think that MLK somehow means Rand isn’t a whiny baby.

 

Like I said, you can read it however you want. I’m going to do the same. Been through this whole argument in here before, none of you are saying anything I haven’t already heard a thousand times, and I’m not going to argue it again. That’s how I see it, feel free to disagree. His attitude is asinine. Disagreement noted.

 

Look, I’m going to bitch about it, you’re going to take up for him, end of story. No harm done; though I will say that nebulous parallels between an entirely fictitious character, in an entirely fictitious world, and Gandhi are vaguely amusing. Imagine it, Blademaster Gandhi, scourge of London!!

 

The Idea holds a certain ridiculous charm.

 

 

 

I’m not going into pointlessness of a discussion about the whole “harm a woman” issue, been there too.

Why?  No discussion is pointless, unless you're utterly unwilling to learn other people's views.  That's called being close-minded.

 

LOL, why closed-minded, because I'm certain you're going to disagree, and I don't have the patience to have this argument again for what, probably the 3rd or 4th time? That argument will go, predictably I might add, where this one is headed, yet again, away from the point into one posters personal affront at the opinion of another.

 

If you actually want to know my opinion, and aren’t just fishing for a fight, I’ll oblige you, but know upfront, I’m not interested in discussions with people who want to be indignant and offended. Nor am I interested in having that discussion with people who can’t differentiate between a valid argument concerning an opinion, and an slur on one's character.

[Hybrid]

LOL, why closed-minded, because I'm certain you're going to disagree, and I don't have the patience to have this argument again for what, probably the 3rd or 4th time? That argument will go, predictably I might add, where this one is headed, yet again, away from the point into one posters personal affront at the opinion of another.

 

In regards to your argument, yes, I will certainly disagree.  My previous posts made that pretty clear.  But why have a discussion on this if we didn't disagree?  That would be a pretty short topic.  I think the reason is more that you know I will disagree but don't want to change your own mind.  Hence, it's a waste of time for you, because nothing could possibly get accomplished by it.  Maybe I'm being a little harsh, but the only useless arguments in my mind are the ones with people who think Demandred is disguised as Taim or Olver is Gaidal Cain reborn.  You know, the proven facts.

 

If you actually want to know my opinion, and aren’t just fishing for a fight, I’ll oblige you, but know upfront, I’m not interested in discussions with people who want to be indignant and offended. Nor am I interested in having that discussion with people who can’t differentiate between a valid argument concerning an opinion, and an slur on one's character.

 

I'm not offended.  I just want to see what your points are.  Like I said, I myself am not a fan with Rand's attitude.  I even question whether such an attitude would evolve in a world where women hold much of the power and can generally fend for themselves.  I don't see anyone taking this as a slur on anyone's character except maybe for you.  We've just been pointing out that we don't think you've made a valid evaluation of Rand's character.

[Dbob]

LOL, why closed-minded, because I'm certain you're going to disagree, and I don't have the patience to have this argument again for what, probably the 3rd or 4th time? That argument will go, predictably I might add, where this one is headed, yet again, away from the point into one posters personal affront at the opinion of another.

 

In regards to your argument, yes, I will certainly disagree.  My previous posts made that pretty clear.  But why have a discussion on this if we didn't disagree?  That would be a pretty short topic.  I think the reason is more that you know I will disagree but don't want to change your own mind.  Hence, it's a waste of time for you, because nothing could possibly get accomplished by it.  Maybe I'm being a little harsh, but the only useless arguments in my mind are the ones with people who think Demandred is disguised as Taim or Olver is Gaidal Cain reborn.  You know, the proven facts.

 

Well, I guess you’re going to have to think that. I’ve given my reasons for abstaining. Accept them, don’t, it’s up to you. This is fiction, it’s fun, and I like to rant about Rand because he annoys me. I’ll save the heavy emotional investment for real things that are happening back here in real life.

 

If you actually want to know my opinion, and aren’t just fishing for a fight, I’ll oblige you, but know upfront, I’m not interested in discussions with people who want to be indignant and offended. Nor am I interested in having that discussion with people who can’t differentiate between a valid argument concerning an opinion, and an slur on one's character.

 

I'm not offended.  I just want to see what your points are.  Like I said, I myself am not a fan with Rand's attitude.  I even question whether such an attitude would evolve in a world where women hold much of the power and can generally fend for themselves.  I don't see anyone taking this as a slur on anyone's character except maybe for you.  We've just been pointing out that we don't think you've made a valid evaluation of Rand's character.

 

That wasn’t aimed at anyone in particular; it’s just how my experience of in depth discussion of contrary opinion in here usually goes. I’m sure this happens anywhere people discuss fiction.

 

Valid. Hmmm, well there’s the issue isn’t it. My opinion of Rand is just as valid as anyone else’s. It’s neither wrong nor right, nor correct nor incorrect, just like your opinion of Rand. You can certainly argue why you think your opinion is justified, but that isn’t the same as telling someone there is only one way to read a character that’s valid. It definitely isn’t the same as starting down the road to nefarious personal insinuation and slight (which is more about how Mr. Ares parsed his argument than anything you said).

 

I’m not sure which opinions you’re interested in, Opinions on Rand and his actions, or general opinions on how the author set up the whole “harm a woman” thing. They’re tied together in any case, and about 80 percent of my annoyance with Rand can be traced back to the needless and excruciatingly excessive idea that all women are sacrosanct by right of ovaries.

 

It’s one thing to run aroud Randland knocking off random farm wives out picking vegetables, it’s another thing entirely to take out a forsaken, dark side villain who’s neither weak nor defenseless, who’s already knocked off who knows how many millions in the age of legends, and is going to knock off god knows how many more.

 

It’s annoying that in Rand’s head, ovaries are so sacred and inviolate that he can’t distinguish between the two. I find that unreasonable and selfish because he knows she is going to kill more people, but his feelings forbid him to try to stop her (and yes, he’s going to have to take her out, harsh language and a good scolding isn’t going to work here).

 

What’s more important, how he feels about killing a woman or the lives that woman is going to take. For Rand, his feelings seem to be the important issue here. It’s a monumental lack of anything resembling perspective.

 

 

[Hybrid]

I'm not disagreeing with your opinion of Rand's character.  I find him generally annoying too now (now being after the first half of the series).  I was disagreeing with your evaluation of his character as narcissistic, neurotic, self-indulgent, etc.  I just don't see where you're getting these diagnoses from.

 

As far as the docks are concerned, my opinion is that there was nothing more he could do.  His choice was the same as Nynaeve's and Cadsuane's.  The Forsaken have an amazing amount of knowledge from the AOL.  Use it for something good.  Otherwise, he would have simply killed Asmodean too.  Note, he did attempt to capture Lanfear.  He didn't just stand around and watch her kill people.

[Dbob]

…I can’t believe I’m doing this…

 

OK quote, TFOH, pgs. 925, 926

 

Rand’s POV

 

…He could end it, finish her. He could call down lightning, or wrap her in the fire she herself had used to kill.

 

…He could end it. Only, he could not. He was going to die, perhaps the world would die, but he could not make himself kill another woman. Somehow it seemed the richest joke the world had ever seen…[/Quote]

 

Whatever we may think he could actually do, he thought he could stop her, and then he didn’t even try, because of his feelings, which were what took precedence, not other people’s lives, not losing to the D.O. Rand’s feelings were paramount, that's self-involved to the point of blindness, all the seriously important mitigating factors were not enough to get him to act - because his feelings forbid it, lives were less important, the whole world was less important, basically my issue with him in a nutshell.

 

You know you can toss down the crazy card here, if Rand is mad it’s a catchall, I can still be annoyed, you can still like him, Rand can be a loon, we can have no issue.