Modification: What parts do you dislike in the WOT?

[RAND AL THOR]

No prob tranaknd. My 'liar' comment was aimed at kadere for the rude way in which he stated his ideas.

Everyone is free to share their ideas.

And yes, I think 'hate' is a little strong. Maybe dislike would be better.

 

I agree with Feral on most of his points. You provide sufficient counterarguements, trankand 01, for Feral's points. However, while all those things are correct, I, as a reader, find them slightly irritating. I find it difficult to believe that anyone was totally happy with the series. I mean, didnt you feel at least frustration somewhere along the storyline? If not, then you must be a very very patient person.

Still, if there are people out there who found no probs at all with the WOT then so be it.

 

Oh, yeah, I also agree that the books got a little boring after book 5. Uptp the FoH they were great and the endings of the first 5 books were just magnificant but the other books were a little disappointing.

Go ahead! Let the firing begin! (But I will stand by what I said: there are parts in the WOT that I find irritating and frustrating).

[trakand_01]

Oh yes certainly I feel frustrations. At present, I am almost desperate to learn who Demandred is, what will happen to Cyndane and Moghedien and for Moiraine to reappear.

 

But these things enhance the story for me. The world is the most believable fantasy world i've ever become familiar with, and every irritation, frustration and idiotic antic just makes the world more vivid for me, adds to my perception of it.

 

If I absolutely had to pick something I disliked, I guess it would be the Whitecloaks - because I find them boring, I have a problem with the whole 'we're right, you're wrong' mentality of them and I read their sections as quickly as possible, but that doesnt mean I would have them changed or taken out of the story - it wouldnt be the story it is without them, and they have their own parts to play.

 

Not sure if that makes sense, but hopefully you know what I'm getting at! I'm far from a 'patient' person, I always want everything now, or if possible, yesterday, but I am a tolerant person, so maybe that helps as the two are very different things.

[RAND AL THOR]

Thank You trankand that was what I was getting at. :D

[sunshine + gasoline]

I think some good points have been brought up in this thread. I had forgotten many of these things since I haven't read the books in years and am now only at book four on my re-read.

 

I also relate alot with Harmless Bandit about the lack of Rand. Quite frankly he was the reason I started reading the serias since I really liked him from the start. Him being a main chracter and not being so active anymore grates at me alot. I hope AMoL has alot of Rand in it now that I have decided to actually finish the serias.

 

Now that I think on it, I dropped the books at book ten last time because I was sick of Perrin being a lame character (post Faile owning), Rand being gone and Mat being gimped around by everything. They were the ones that made the early books such a fun read for me. I'm just not that intrested in a bunch of side-character becoming more important than the three main chracters.

 

And no I wouldn't go and call it dislike either, I really mean that I hate these aspects since I consider them like black spots on something that I truly love and care about, the serias. Sue me. =/

[RAND AL THOR]

agreed-sunshine.

 

and frankly, i dont expect as much Rand as we would like aMoL because so many threads need to be tied. I'm looking forward to see how Egwene gets the stole though.

[aussie_ashaman123]

I really really wanna know where Fain is, and what hes doing. Hes gotta be the coolest bad guy in the book and hes simply not in it enough!

 

its also rather irritating how the Forsaken, the 13 mightiest channelers of the Shadow, are so inept they make the "Police Academy" cops look like flaming superheroes.

 

And the Aes Sedai, how theyve gone from being the most feared, awed and powerful group in Randland, to broken, squabbling children, bullied by Windfinders and held in comtempt by Aiel. Even the Kin dont think too much of them any more.

[trakand_01]

But isnt that the way of it with everything? When all you see is what they want you to see, everything is wonderful and shiny, but when you see underneath the layers of gloss, the majority of institutions are a roiling couldron of deceit, intrigue and lies (although obviously few lies in this case).

 

 

The Aes Sedai have spent centuries perfecting their serene look, the ability to show no outward reaction no matter the incident. They kept the WT and it's antics quiet. It's only because we have an insider's view that we know different. I'm pretty sure if you asked an everyday man from somewhere out in the Amadician countryside what he thought of Aes Sedai, his view would be pretty much akin to ours a'la end of book 1.

[Guest Dreadlord]

One thing I DO hate-and I really mean this-is how Demandred acts in the Cleansing. Fine, he turns up. Good. But he flees when Flynn equals him with his circle! Demandred surely could have done something good to shows us what he was made of! He should have done something we havent seen with the Power, or handled ten flows at once like Rand can, or just something! ANYTHING! But nooo, he had to retreat. I was way disappointed with him. I do still like him, but he let me down.

[Myndrunner]

Padan Fain is a great despicable character!!!  A great villain that even had the DO a bit worried with his mind meld with Mordeath.  My top three favorite characters are women, go figure, but Padan comes in fourth overall, with Thom in fifth place. 

 

I think it is important for us all to distinguish between hating a character or scenario that we are supposed to hate versus hating a writing device by Jordan that we think failed.  I think the guy was a brilliant writer and arguably better than Tolkein.  Certainly an easier read, 12 Best Sellers can't be a farce. 

 

My main frustration with the series is that it seemed like just before Knife of Dreams, he was losing control over all the characters.  He had too many well developed folks to keep track of and tried to include everyone in the story.  I thought the rescue of Faile was great, but the Aram vs Perrin deal was a big let down.  There should have been more to it. 

 

Yeah, and Demandred turned into weak-sauce.....another let down. 

 

Perhaps RJ knew he had to start wrapping things up and perhaps anticipated that AMOL would be the last book. 

[aussie_ashaman123]

It not just that, this is the institution that has guided the world for 3000 years, through Trollocs Wars, the Hundred Year War, through every major crisis its ever had. and look at it now. Aside from Rand, when the tower broke there was nothing major happening in the world except for the Blight retreating for the first time in memory.

 

The Best Analogy i can think of is the Governmet of the USA suddenly having the  power of the mayor in some rural backwater town.n

[Myndrunner]

I think one of the running themes in the series is the slow deterioration of what people believe, and like the fall of Rome.  The Aiel thought they were badasses, only to find out their ancestors were peace and love hippies.  The Stone of Tear has fallen, The Seachan have invaded, the world is changing.  It was a lot easier to rule the world when you were the only one around.....now they are not. 

[RAND AL THOR]

I think we will be impressed with Demandred in AMoL. I always considered him the coolest of the male forsaken simply because he was shrouded in so much mystery.If RJ disappoints us with Demandred.....I'll have a few words with RJ after I die.  :)

 

And yes, the way the WT lost control over Randland is quite suprising. But you can hardly blame them: the BT now exists and they are broken by civil war. They have also lost a lot of sisters to the Asha'man and many are not taking part in the tower's war at all. I can't wait to see Elaida kicked out. Her own fortelling will go against her. hehe. ;D

 

I never found Fain all that interesting, probably because he is rarely there in the books. I think his brief appearance where he stabs Rand was sort of lame.

 

I agree with Myndrunner too. RJ started losing control. His world is brilliant but I think it is too big even for him to handle. If he had simply avoided the Faile kidnapping thing, the books may have been better. I was surprised that Masema was still alive at the end of KoD.

Furthermore, Aram's end was veerrry disappointing. He followed Perrin everywhere and then he turns on Perrin because of Masema?Really sad.

 

I wouldnt say that RJ is better than tolkien though. LOTR was wonderful in a way different from WOT. I love tolkiens involvement of a variety of races compared to the WOT which chiefly centers around men. LOTR was short, and so nothing was stretched out or pulled. Truly, I could find very little to criticise in LOTR. I would still rate tolkien better. However, Randland is more realistic due to the fact that it is more like today's world.

[Myndrunner]

*Cheers to that*

 

I think the whole mess with Faile and Perrin was to give them something to do.  I hesitate to say this for all he Faile haters out there, but RJ really has set things up to kill her off.  What would send Perrin into a blindless rage more than to have Faile killed......worse, killed accidentally by Rand?

[Guest Dreadlord]

I think is Fain my favourite individual bad guy. All of book 2 was great because he was so involved. And he has come a very long way since then. I hope he has a good part in AMoL, and I think he will. Also, for a while I did think Demandred was the coolest male Forsaken but over time we still hear nothing from him, and his only appearance was disappointing. But I hope and wait, in AMoL he will have a chance to redeem himself I think.

[sunshine + gasoline]

I to want Demandred to do something wicked. He has the single coolest name of all the villains in the serias. Reason enough for me. =D

[Majsju]

If you think RJ could/should have skipped the Faile-kidnapping, just look what that plotline resulted in.

 

The Shaido are no loger a threat.

Perrin have made a connection with the Seanchan.

Perrin was pushed into a situation where he finally gave up the axe in favour of the hammer (as he would do according to prophecy)

The Two Rivers bowmen have joined the action (including Tam, who thanks to this now can hook up with Rand in AMOL)

The Dragonsworn are reduced from 20000 to 200.

Perrin is in position to meet with Galads whitecloaks, which will reveal Morgase, as well as allow Berelain to fall head over heels for Galad.

 

Quite an important plotline.

[RAND AL THOR]

True, majsju, the kidnapping allowed all those things to happen. But the kidnapping itself was torurously long and frustrating. Every event in a book is set to move the story forward. I think an author as skilled as RJ could have made all those points you mentioned happen and still avoid the kidnapping. Clearly, he wanted Perrin to gain respect from the Seanchan and form at least a frail friendship with them. Couldn't this have occured in some other way? People pointed out that all my starting 7 negative points of WOT on the first page can all be explained. I know they can. RJ isnt silly to write things that do not shift the story onwards. What I am saying is, can he not have achieved his purposes but avoid slightly boring situations like this?

 

I think he could have done it. But he was coming under some pressure I guess as more and more people started reading WOT and wanting the release of the next book. This is one reason why I am not anxious for AMoL. I think we should give BS plenty of time to think out and write the book properly. Otherwise I think we'll end up with something like book 10, which I found very boring.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Faile needs to die a very long and painful death. I wouldnt care how long THAT was dragged out. Granted her rescue was an important plot, but she did absolutely nothing else to forward the story. And dont say she taught Perrin about being a Lord, because he doesnt even know anything. He would have picked it up without her, just as Rand did without Moiraine in book 2.

[No Funeral]

The very drawn out Malden conflict. Unless the Shaido returning to the 3Fold play a major role in AMoL, the 3 or 4 book arc was worthless.

 

Rand losing a hand (happened all of a sudden and to waht end?  To further intertwine Star Wars and WOT mythology?  Maybe RJ put in some references to Buster from Arrested Development in his notes for AMoL.

 

Certain books omitting main characters entirely

 

So many plotlines to wrap up in one more book, the pacing of events could have been quicker.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I wish we had learned more about the Trolloc tribes

[Majsju]

I find it extremely unlikely Perrins plotline could have resulted in all those things without Faile being kidnapped.

 

Had she not been kidnapped, she would have returned to the camp, and then the entire camp would return to Cairhien as soon as they had Masema. If Masema had attempted to postpone into infinity, I can easily see perrin losing his patience, and ordering one of the Asha'man to open a gatwway, and bring Masema stuffed in a sack.

 

And even if he just sat on his fat behind waiting for Masema, where would the incentive to hook up with the Seanchan in order to go after the Shaido come from? That would jeopardise the entire mission, and Perrin would never do such a thing. Unless Faile was in danger.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Yes, granted, her being kidnapped was an important plot, as I said earlier, but its not as if she did in on purpose. She doesnt deserve any credit at all for it.

[aevogt]

The Sea Folk

 

When we first meet them in The Shadow Rising, Coine and Jorin, the Sailmistress and Windfinder of Wavedancer, seem to be fairly sympathetic characters, rather than the rank obsessed harridans we encounter evry single time after that.

 

What was special about that instance.

 

As for the race for Faile, I just finished the series and if you read

 

The Path of Daggers, Winter's Heart, Crossroads of Twilight and Knife of Dreams

one right after the other, devoting a week to each novel, the events in the story all unfold in roughly 55 days so it seems to go quickly, rather than the drag it seemed to be when we had to wait two stinkin' years to find out she's still a prisoner.

 

If you read those four, it snaps from event to event with no apparent lag.

 

At least, that's how it was for me on this last meandering through the WoT.

 

 

[argonath]

Readers of WoT are all different.  Some are 'simple' readers who just want a nice fun experience (Xanth readers I call them), some are more interested in seeing the movie first, THEN going back and reading the book, some are into complex character and plot development, and lastly, there are those who see certain books and series as historical entities unto themselves.  (aka... LotR and how it has shaped Fantasy for decades)

 

With this being said, those of the LAST persuasion see Wot NOT as a single Hero growing from naivity to immortal and accomplishing a final task to save the world, but rather WoT as THE entity and the world itself is the main focus... not the characters.

 

I beleive RJ wanted us to see a world... and created the complexity of a world that was both on the cusp of entering a New Age, but one that would break out of the mold of the endless wheel.  Will the Dark One be completely defeated at the end, or simply locked up where he no longer WILL ever have power or influence on the world.  Think of it like this... when Jesus came to the REAL world, He defeated Satan, but did NOT destroy him.... there are STILL parts to be played if one believes the prophetic influence of biblical events.

 

How disappointed would you be if Rand toppled the stone of Tear, and then suddenly ALL of the southern portions of the world flocked to his banner like mindless zombies?  If it took half a book for him to simply 'show up' and everyong turned from what they knew and accepted him as the prophetic one?  It doesnt happen in real life, and honestly, it happens TOO many times in single book fantasy stories.

 

The OTHER part here is... time moves differently in Wot, and by this, I mean while we see a certain action occurring for Rand, something else of importance and significance is happening for Illian that has NOTHING to do with the main characters.  Thus, each occurrance has to have its portion of the story to bring us up to date so that when the main characters DO move into there for a purpose, we arent left in the dark saying... WTF?  Where did that come from?

 

I think not enough time was spent writing about the Forsaken and how they took over the domains they did.  Out of NOWHERE, Camelyn, Illian, and Tear had Forsaken rulers... even the great Thom Merrilin had no time or knowledge that there was a change for a 'high lord' in Tear.

 

Good writers use false trails NOT to stupify readers, but to tie certain things off, and to BRING information that would be sterile if simply written... a occurs then b occurs.  Next chapter etc...

 

Yes, the lack of Perrin in one book, the lack of Mat in another, and the limited use of Rand in the last book can be frustrating... as the whole Faile issue, but honestly, when watching the LotR didnt it get BORING just watching Frodo and Sam wander through the mountains for a movie and a half, and seeing Golem deal with his schizophrenia?

 

Yet, it was necessary... because you CANT have events taking place in the Rowan and epic battles occurring while out of nowhere... you see Frodo and Sam suddenly show up on Mordors doorstep.  BOTH occurred in real time at the same time, and you have to make the reader FEEL as if they are seeing two seperate events shaping up in a singular world.

 

I like the philosophy MORE that Im reading about the WoT... NOT simply that Im reading a book about 3 heroes saving the world.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

I think not enough time was spent writing about the Forsaken and how they took over the domains they did.  Out of NOWHERE, Camelyn, Illian, and Tear had Forsaken rulers

UNQUOTE

 

I understand what you mean but of course the series would have lost most of its suspense in the early books if we watched the Forsaken take over the countries. I mean, we saw Rahvin do it to a point, watched him use Compulsion on Morgase and bring in his own army, but that was necessary as Morgase is closer to the main characters than any of the other rulers. I like it how we dont see it all-it shows how behind the scenes the Forsaken really are. And you also have to remember that the series is 100% PoV-based, with the only exceptions being the winds at the start of each book and the small scene where Herid Fels corpse is discovered. When you see something in Wheel of Time, you see it how the character sees it. To do otherwise would have made RJ stray from his natural style of writing.