Modification: What parts do you dislike in the WOT?

[benr]

 

And yet another benefit also is that there must have been at least some of Taims "favourite pupils" (ie Darkfriends) in those Ashaman that bonded Aes Sedai. That means that the Shadow now have control over at least some non-Black Ajah Aes Sedai. The things they could do with that!!!

 

To a degree.  Unless the AS are Black, though, any instructions through the bond that violate the three oaths could kill the AS.  I wonder what effect that would have on the bond holder?

[Guest Dreadlord]

True. Still, they would be able to use non-Black Ajah to their advantage and it would be an advantage indeed. The Oaths apply to conscious decisions with regard to acting for the good of the White Tower and not using the Power as a weapon, so all it would take to get past those bits is Compulsion. Its like a Jedi mind trick. "You think Elaida is a Darkfriend. You must kill her. And it was Egwene Al'Vere who sent you to kill her." That would start a massive uproar.

[anamul]

Rand said not to harm the aes sedai. Taim as being what he is interpreted it how-ever he liked.

 

Yeah, if some of the Ashaman who bonded the aes sedai is dark friend, that could cause trouble.

 

Still, it was better than killing them all.Which Taim would have done, if Rand hadn't ordered him not to. Killing those 50 ,aes sedai would have resulted in a far more complicated chaos.

 

Also you are forgetting that among the fifty aes sedai, there might be two or three black ajah as well.

 

Farther more, the aes sedai sent by Egwene or Elaida to bond the ashaman can have some black ajah among them as well.

 

So when you talk about black ajah taking advantage of the bond, it can go both ways.

[Elgee]

There are no BA amongst the Aes Sedai sent from the Tower - Alviarin, after a discussion with Mesaana, decided to make sure none were sent.

[RAND AL THOR]

Iv read KoD but I cant remember why... care to remind me?

 

Wow..I took this to mean you couldn't remember why you read KoD at all; I thought perhaps it was all of the time spent on Perrin/Faile in WH and CoT.

 

OMG, this was so hilarious!!! English is a wonderful language.  ;D

 

I think that the bonding is far preferable to dying. And the Aes Sedai deserve it for daring to attack the BT at all. I love Egwene but, true, she has not right to be angry at Rand.Indeed I think events may play out differently.

'will know her anger' can mean many things. It doesnt say Rand is going to cower and shrivel. I think she's going to know his anger too. ;D

[benr]

Okay...interesting stuff.

 

1. I'd forgotten that no BA were sent in the party, and am too lazy to go back and check - but why/how did Mesaana know to not send the BA?  Was it just general knowledge of the Forsaken that the Black Tower was way more than the White Tower thought, or was she receiving inside info, and from who?

 

2. Bear with me here - I'm still formulating this as I go.  Is there a way that the bonded AS can use the three oaths to erode the bond of the Ashaman?  If they can convince themselves in advance that certain commands of their Ashaman bonders would violate the oaths, maybe it would weaken the hold of the bond.  It also seems to me that the bond of the Ashaman/AS is different  from the normal AS/Warder bond - it is much stronger.  Elyas was able to walk away from his bond; Birgitte constantly goes against Elayne, sometimes only obeying her out of sufferance.  So the bond is different, boardering on compulsion.  In any case, if the AS could work at eroding the bond without the Ashaman realizing it (they couldn't disobey anything until it really mattered), it would be a big plus, and an interesting scenario.  Of course, it could kill them if they were convinced that an order was in direct conflict with the three oaths (as with the ferrets in the Tower being recruited to hunt the BA; they truly believed that the Reds had set up Logain as a false dragon); or the Ashaman might be able to detect a shift in the bond.  Any thoughts? 

 

3. If D-lords postulates are correct about the way the DF Ashaman could use their bonded AS, they are really missing a trick. 

 

It seems that at least some of this would be great in AMoL. 

[Elgee]

Okay...interesting stuff.

 

1. I'd forgotten that no BA were sent in the party, and am too lazy to go back and check - but why/how did Mesaana know to not send the BA?  Was it just general knowledge of the Forsaken that the Black Tower was way more than the White Tower thought, or was she receiving inside info, and from who?

 

 

I'm not at home now to check out exactly what happened, but as far as I can recall it went like this: Elaida ordered Alviarin to send 50 Sisters to deal with the BT. Alviarin spoke to Mesaana about it, and asked her some particular questions which I can't recall now.  Mesaana's reply was a bit vague, but Alviarin decided on her own initiative NOT to send any of her Black Sisters, just in case.

 

I'm sure Luckers will have the correct info and quotes before I get home tonight  ;D

[Rasta Ashaman]

My cockatoo that I once caught 'reading' one of the WoT books  and a couple of threads here made me think about stuff that doesn't really fit into 'dislike' category, rather what I'd like to see in WoT (for fun, at least) and which wouldn't necessarily seem out of place in Randland but is still missing.

There are a lot of different birds described in WoT, but strangely enough, there are no parrots! The only mention we see is when Cads snaps at a couple of her AS for 'parroting' - but not a single alive parrot. Which is strange, knowing that it was popular among ruling elite even in ancient times to train parrots. It could be though that, like in our Age, cockatoos in Randland live down under, in the Land of Madmen. :)

 

Another thing - which has been discussed a lot - is religion. RJ has given his reasons for not mentioning any religious cults, I guess; but still, something like a Sufi order, a group devoted to the Light traveling around Randland spreading the message would've been interesting to see. Something in between/mix of the Tu'athaan and the Prophet (which one might see as an extremist Dervish). No monks wandering around, no monasteries, therefore - no schools; but the average education level is nevertheless quite high for the times (well, at least almost everyone can read!). 

 

We also haven't seen any blind/deaf/dumb characters in the series - don't think that mute da'covale and/or zomara count here.

No doctors - only hedge-doctors are mentioned - but the society is quite developed, so why not?

 

Yet another thing that's missing, but could add some twists to the story maybe, are newspapers. RJ mentioned once that Randland is something like 17th century Europe but without the gunpowder, if I'm not mistaken, and that printing press is there. Books are printed in every country in Randland, but there aren't any trade/guild bulletins or anything else of the sort that were found in 17th century Europe. Just imagine what could be printed in something like:

 

the official Tar Valon 'Sa'angreal Sa'anomat' :)

a tabloid like 'Tarabon Unveiled'

mega rivals 'Illian Times' and 'Tyren Post'

for an alternative view on world affairs 'Arad Domani Akhbaar'

and an adult 'Nine Horse Hitch'

Seanchan 'Good Damane-keeping'

 

[Majsju]

If there is one thing I would like to see more of, it is characters we know well, and like, to die. I mean, characters like Ingtar and vandene are pretty much the closest to a main character we have seen die. And that is a bit lame.

[RAND AL THOR]

If there is one thing I would like to see more of, it is characters we know well, and like, to die. I mean, characters like Ingtar and vandene are pretty much the closest to a main character we have seen die. And that is a bit lame.

 

Totally true. I would be very sad if an important character DOES die but it is only realistic right? That is a really big hole in this book. In real life, all the good guys don't live ripe lives while the bad guys are all knocked off. WOT would have been more realistic if some of the chief characters died, even though I would be quite sad if they did.

 

Or maybe RJ is saving it all up for utter butchery at Tarmon Gaidon?(OMG)

[Majsju]

Yes, it would be sad if major character dies, which is exactly why I want it to happen. I absolutely hate happy endings, because the emotional impact of those are reduced to pretty much nothing.

 

Best thing would be if we had a popular character die in the prologue, just to from the beginning show that in AMOL, noone is safe (except the few characters we know have a future, of course).

[Rasta Ashaman]

If there is one thing I would like to see more of, it is characters we know well, and like, to die.

My thoughts exactly! (and the nominees are...:))

Plus, there's another thing I sort of dislike in WoT books - practically total lack of tragic characters - apart from Ingtar and couple of others, and of course Padan Fain (who deserves a lot more PoVs) - everyone else is either almost unbearably Light-sweet or, if it's a baddie, gets described in a couple of lines only.

 

 

[havoc110]

Didn't see this thread ealier, but since it's bumped up:

 

- I really have enjoyed the matriarchal slant of Randland.

It's one of the things that sets it apart for me.  Maybe

we could have gotten by with a bit less sniffing, snorting,

and skirt smoothing, though.

 

- I also can't stand the whole Perrin/Faile story arc.  It

is worth to note how much hatred a character can generate,

though.  The depth of my loathing for Faile is frightening.

 

-  I've said this in other threads, my biggest problem has

been lack of a credible Dark side.  Even though I now have

a guess as to what Dark's been up to, and it would make up

for a lot of bumbling by the Dark.  Still, how many credible

dark threats have there been?  How many times have you thought

"How is Light gonna get out of this?"  Again, the example I

bring up is the end of Empire Strikes back.  There's been

so many books and plots, but never really a surge by the Dark

that puts you on the edge of your seat for a while. Even with

a great Last Battle, you can't make up for all this time where

Dark never stuck their nose in front.

[RAND AL THOR]

Didn't see this thread ealier, but since it's bumped up:

  Maybe

we could have gotten by with a bit less sniffing, snorting,

and skirt smoothing, though.

 

 

A point on the skirt smoothing issue: When the girls are in awkward or embaressing situations, they look down at their shoes etc and/or smooth their skirts. Honestly, what ELSE could they do in such situations? I mean, I would pretend to search in my bag for something that I know isn't there, and fumble with buttons, pretend to look elsewhere etc in embaressing situations. RJ's world is set back in time a bit, so I can't think what else they could do in such situations.

 

Didn't see this thread ealier, but since it's bumped up:

 

 

- I also can't stand the whole Perrin/Faile story arc.  It

is worth to note how much hatred a character can generate,

though.  The depth of my loathing for Faile is frightening.

 

 

 

LOL. Totally agree. But RJ did get much accomplished through the Faile kidnapping etc as someone suggested earlier, but I still severely dislike the kidnapping. I almost screamed in frustration when I realized it was Perrin on the KOD cover, discussing plans to rescue Faile. I mean, couldn't it have been Moridin at the meeting with the other Forsaken on the cover? That would have been AWESOME. ;)

 

I too was a bit disappointed by the lack of success by the Dark. But you have to remember, most of the Forsakens' plans are based on destabilising Randland for TG so that they can easily win in TG. The DO wasn't interested in direct strokes against the Light before the Bore was fully opened. That is an interesting and VERY effective plan - but it reduces the strength of the Dark Side from the reader's point of view.

 

If the Dark had managed to inflict more damage on Rand's guards during the Cleansing, then it would have been great.

[Bob T Dwarf]

An old line of Johnny Carson's keeps popping into my head.  "Buy the premise, buy the bit."

 

Meaning if you establish the foundation properly, people will accept, and buy whatever you build on it, no matter how ridiculous.

 

In a number of ways, Jordan failed to build proper foundations.

 

Every time a Trolloc horde pops up, I start looking around for Jason and the Argonauts and those Dragons Teeth.  They just spring full grown, fully formed, fully armed and armored, out of the ground.

 

It takes a society of millions to support an army of thousands.  Where do the arms and armor come from?  How are enough breeder Trollocs being sustained in order to raise up those armies?  How is the necessary societal infrastructure for all of that administered and maintained?  Etc., etc.

 

If Jordan had spent a little less time having his characters do sufficiently embarrassing things that they feel the need to spend far too much of their onscreen time sniffing and smoothing and posing and posturing, and a little more time explaining how the Dark has managed to grow and prosper during the interregnum, we'd have a much more menacing and believable story.

[havoc110]

Your point about the Cleansing is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

You set up a large conflict and once again the ending is

predictable:  Light rolls.  A very big disappointment, that.

 

Not only that, but Dark compounds its losses by actions taken

against their own side.

 

Similar to the end of FoH, where a Dark character (Asmo) is killed

after the fact, most likely by the Dark.  After the cleansing, SH

takes his frustrations out on Mesaana, something we've seen him

do to Moggy before.

 

The lack of cohesion and infighting has really detracted at times.

There are plenty of proponents to this, saying that RJ's "keepin it

real".  But I just don't understand that logic at all.  If you've been

"keepin it real" for 11 books and in book 12, Light wins a predictable

and hollow victory, what exactly have you been "keepin it real" for?

 

And that will be how WoT either succeeds or fails the ToT (to borrow

from another thread).  Why wait so long?  It could have been a great,

evenly matched, conflict all along, so that a super ending was a foregone

conclusion, and even a mediocre ending would still keep it up on the

highest level of great epic stories.  Now, if you get a so-so ending

no pressure there BS), then you have what? 

20 years and 12 books that are pretty darn good, with an epic feel to it,

but that just didn't quite get there.

 

It's tough, because of what has come before.  How can Moiraine and Lanfear

hold up to Gandalf and the Balrog (and even so, it does a pretty good job).

But what of other scenes, and to borrow Majsju's point, sometimes those

scenes come around with great cost to Light.

 

Stuff like this:

 

1)  Luke loses his hand and Vader says "I am your father!"

(unlike Moirane/Lanfear, the WoT version doesn't hold a candle to this)

 

2)  The fall (double meaning) of Boromir.  Two points on this scene:

First:  LotR, in the books, but especially in the movies has a tough time getting back to the power of this scene in the remainder of the story.  Second,

Ingtar's scene is also great, but unfortunately it's been kind of buried

by the sheer volume of the story that has followed.

 

3)  Eowyn vs. the Witch King.

 

4)  Han Solo at Cloud City when he's encased in carbonite.

 

5)  The "actual" ending to the Golden Compass.

 

 

WoT should really have more scenes like this...

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

True.

To tell the truth, I found the endings of Books 7-11 dull compared to former books. I mean, book 10 ends with Egwene captured after an assault on the WT that we know nothing about beforehand. I am used to anticipating the ending. Not so in book 10.

 

The Sammael killing part was also rather abrupt. The whole book (and book 6 as well) was building up to getting rid of Sammael and the way it was done seemed a bit ...rushed.

 

But the ending of book 2 is the best I HAVE EVER READ IN MY LIFE. Everytime I re-read the Great Hunt ending my body practically quivers with emotions. It is so darn gooddddddd. The Horn, the heroes, Ishy, fighting in the sky, rising down a slope of mist......WOW...RJ really showed his colours there! No other book ending (with the possibly exception of the Fall of Barad-Dur) is as good as that.

[havoc110]

Continuing what Bob and RAND are onto:

 

I think Bob's point is totally on target.  Things have

been put in the story at the expense of other perhaps

essential elements. 

 

Also RAND, I also thought the 1st 2 books were wonderful.

And since then it's been good but not up to the standard

set early on.

 

Also I think the problem is that character depth and

diversification is not necessarily a good thing.  It's not

that RJ is over-reaching, it's that you want certain things

to sort of stay inside a set of boundaries.  You get some

advantages by making more complex characters, but then

you have to pay the costs.  Let's look at Moiraine again.

Because she's been in the locker room for the 2nd half,

she's the closest to where she started.  Her archetypal qualities

as guide/mentor are as strong as when we left her.  But even

when she was still on stage, RJ was messing with it, with

the "pulling strings" angle, thereby creating his "reluctant hero".

All well and good, but then the clean, crisp lines set out in

the epic formula begin to blur.  At this point in the story,

a lot have characters are now VERY blurry.  Some might say that's been the intent

all along, but OK, how much does it add, vs. how much does it cost?

 

Another thing is the overdiversification of both sides, but especially

the Dark.  Again, it may have been the intent all along, but here

the story definitely does suffer.  Consider Glen Cook's Black Company,

and his Ten Who Were Taken.  Sure you have 10, but primarily you are only

dealing with 2 or 3 primary Dark Side characters. (IIRC, 'Catcher, Limper,

Howler).  Also, note that to an ordinary Joe on the battlefield, these

guys were TERRIFYING.  So I think that RJ gave the Dark more characters,

gave each character more complexities, and in result, Dark lost its

focus.

 

In these past weeks since getting back on these boards, I've found

Joseph Campbell's "The Hero With a Thousand Faces".  I think I'll find

me a copy one day...

[Vambram]

The one and only one part of the WOT which I have not enjoyed was that for me, it took too long to resolve the Perrin/Faile kidnapping storyline. Everything else, I have completely enjoyed. :)

[Safia al-Maaz]

I hate how the sexes constantly misunderstand each other.  That's really not how is works!  Not all the time anyway.  And I don't like the many unnecessary characters that you have to remember.  And I agree with the first comment that there should be more of Rand in the later books. 

 

Otherwise I ADORE these books!!!

[Daphilip]

If there is one thing I would like to see more of, it is characters we know well, and like, to die. I mean, characters like Ingtar and vandene are pretty much the closest to a main character we have seen die. And that is a bit lame.

 

 

Yes, I agree that he should have started killing of main characters, atleast one by now, but I think it's almost to late for that now. Almost all of the characters have romantic interests, and I think that RJ himself has grown to love the characters to much to kill them of.

 

I suspect that we're going to see more character slaughtering in AMOL, but still not that much for it to be realistic. For him to do that he had to change the whole... soul of the books, and atleast I wouldn't want that.

 

I suspect that BS is going to kill of people without too developed romantic interests, such as Egwene and Gawyn, probably both, Galad, Elyas is pretty much gone, and I have a weird feeling that Min is gone too, even though I hope not, she is way too cool to die.

 

As for the main trio... I'm pretty sure that they're gonna survive all three of them. Mat is a confirmed survivor, Perrin just don't feel like he is going to die, and everything points that Rand is going to survive one way or another.

 

Other stuff I don't like about WOT is, as a majority of the DM members, the Faile-chase. I do actually love Faile as a character, so it has nothing to do with her, and I do think that the Faile-chase could have been a good idea for RJ... for one book, maybe one and a half, but he dragged it for too long. It lost all excitement.

 

Also, I have grown to hate all AS, except for Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene. I remember when Nynaeve discovered how to heal stilling, and everything the AS did was to complain about Nynaeves rough weaves, and they were all sure that they could do it better than Nynaeve... They didn't even thank her until later! That really pissed me off!

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

To be fair, the Light doesn't have anybody like the DO available to recycle characters at need.

 

If the major Light characters had been killed off at a realistic rate, Jordan would have had to keep inventing replacements to fill the Table of Organization.  It aint that easy to come up with good guys who are interesting and believable, guys.

 

I'm sure that any number of good guys are going to buy it in the last volume.  There should be more than enough bloodshed for everyone ( and maybe too much for many ) coming up REAL SOON NOW.

[RAND AL THOR]

Yeah bob dwarf but in a series where you have 12 books, it is a bit unrealistic so kill off several main characters in the last book and none at all before that. Even H.Potter is realistic in the sense that the good side loses people throughout the war and not just at the last and final battle.

 

Maybe two or three should be in their graves right now. (preferably Faile and Min). I dont like the way Min treats Rand most of the time. She is next to useless if she was attacked by B.Ajah or Myrdraal and yet she glares at Rand every time he tries to protect her. Weird personality.

[Bob T Dwarf]

ummmm... and exactly what woman have we met anywhere in the series who wouldn't glare at Rand for the same reason in the same circumstance?

 

Jordan did have a decidedly skewed view of women.

 

That's probably what I object to more than anything else in the series.  The unrelievedly negative manner with which he portrayed all of the women in the series.  He focused almost exclusively on warts.  And, did next-to-nothing to make us see any of those warts as beauty marks.

[RAND AL THOR]

Come to think of it.....you're right!

 

Min- no need to say anything more on her.

 

Elayne-grumbles about taking the Lion Throne herself and is not thankful AT ALL that Rand secured it for her. Rand should have let her face Rhavin.

 

Aviendha- she is practically an anaconda with legs. But I like her in the latter books. She was very cold towards Rand early in the series because she knew that she was going to trip into his bed but afterwards she is fairly friendly with Rand.

 

Nynaeve-omg someone shave her head!

 

Maidens/Wise Ones- they fail to see that Rand is no longer wearing a diaper.

 

I think if there was a holy book in Randland explaining how the creator made the world it would have an extract like this:

 

And then the Creator pushed the Wheel and made it turn forever more and he created man. And then, when creating the first woman, he sneezed and so upset the careful emotional balance he had initially placed within her. Hence he doomed all womankind forever more to unstable personalities and he doomed mankind forever more for having to manage them. ;)

 

Note: This refers to Randland-not the real world. ;)