Modification: What parts do you dislike in the WOT?

[RAND AL THOR]

 

 

I think not enough time was spent writing about the Forsaken and how they took over the domains they did.  Out of NOWHERE, Camelyn, Illian, and Tear had Forsaken rulers... even the great Thom Merrilin had no time or knowledge that there was a change for a 'high lord' in Tear.

 

 

Hmmmm...The Forsaken used the One Power to gain powerful leading positions in the world. They used Compulsion etc.. to reach those positions. Since they would have used weaves from the AoL we may still have no idea what kind of weaves they may have used and how effective they had been. In my opinion, one of RJ's greatest successes was the idea of several cities under forsaken rule.

 

This means that once Rand kills a forsaken, the city under that forsaken falls under Rand's control. Neat or what? If the original rulers of each city were still alive, Rand would have had a much harder time getting them under his control because no King is going to want to bow to anyone.

 

RJ killed off the king of Cairhien, he got the king of Illian stuffed into the white tower, and he got Andor, Illian and Tear under forsaken rule. Excellent.

 

I agree about the Sea Folk. I really liked them in Book 4 but they got annoying after that. In fact, it says in book 4 that 'strong men weep when they have to go ashore.' But the sea folk are awfully comfortable on shore in the latter books eh? Contradiction there.

 

And aevogt, I did read all the books in a series in just a few months. My point is that the Faile kidnapping thing took up too much of the latter books. I would have preferred many of those chapters focused on Rand or Egwene. I just loved Egwene in the KoD and I was looking forward to a lot of chapters on Egwene in teh KoD. I was a little disappointed there. To tell the truth, I expected the White Tower to be reunited in the KoD. A lot left for AMOL. ;)

[Tel Janin Aellinsar]

And aevogt, I did read all the books in a series in just a few months. My point is that the Faile kidnapping thing took up too much of the latter books. I would have preferred many of those chapters focused on Rand or Egwene. I just loved Egwene in the KoD and I was looking forward to a lot of chapters on Egwene in teh KoD. I was a little disappointed there. To tell the truth, I expected the White Tower to be reunited in the KoD. A lot left for AMOL. ;)

 

First, let me disclose this:  Egwene grew into my favorite female character after Moiraine took out Lanfear.  Faile is easily my least favorite female character, especially since she and Perrin showed back up in LoC.

 

That being said, I agree with aevogt.  I think that Faile's kidnapping brought together several plot threads in a way that really ended up contributing to the overall story.  Just to look at the connection Perrin made with the Seanchan.  Binding the nine mooons to Rand simply by having Mat marry Tuon always seemed to shallow of a plot.  But now it seems much more realistic since Perrin, Mat, Settelle Anan, and others are all bridging the gap between the Randlanders and the Seanchan.  And Perrin was one of these keys. 

 

This is just one example of the giant tapestry RJ wove.  And the fact is it takes more and more time to tell a comprehensive story that simply grows with the telling.  So a long drawn out story of Faile's kidnapping was just a part of that.  And even though I desperately wanted more of Egwene in the Tower than RJ gave us in KoD, the story demanded the Faile saga for all of the results that everyone has listed.

[mabbott74]

3) I dislike Rand having so many injuries: two non-healable wounds and one hand blasted off.

 

Hehe... Don't read Song of Ice and Fire then...\

 

Anyways, I get tired of the whole "OH MY GOD I CANT HURT A WOMAN EVEN THOUGH SHE IS GOING TO RIP ME TO SHREDS"

 

Every time that crap comes up with the boys, I want to kick my neighbor's dog (well, I want to do that anyways, the little yapping bastard).

 

But, yeah, I hate the whole chase Faile crap too.  I skip it every time I read the series.  Faile herself is a little shady to me.  When she kept stating that Perrin needed to seperate himself from Rand and make his own mark, that sounded a little too much like Lanfear.  Perrin is that one friend who falls in love with the girl no one can get along with.  I would rather see him with the Mayener (sp?) slut - she makes me feel kinda funny.

[anamul]

Loosing focus from Rand, making him act like fool, when he wasn't in the earliar books and making Egwene cool is the only aspect that I dislike about WOT.

But it goes without saying that RJ likes his female character better than the male. And lately after book 6, he has developed a fondness for Egwene. I guess he see's her like a daughter. But my point, with no offense is, while you might be fond of your daughter and dream of her being riding the world, suddenly becoming cool, not to mention trained in  CIA  in enduring torture and stuff...well it becomes irritating for me.Cause I don't like her. And all the fairness, I expected her to treated as other, equally...not as a daughter of the writter.

 

In the later books, RJ lost focus from Rand, gradually, concentrating all his effort to Egwene. She began to take up more and more pages. On the other hand, a very few time RJ decided to bring Rand in was to make him a fool, plus add humiliation and irritate us.

 

All that teaching him to laugh and cry, could be taught him by some one else, some other way...hell, his girls could have taught them. Min already does.

 

So yeah, that is the only aspect I dislike about WOT. Plus another humiliation for Rand which is hanging on Elaida's foretelling.

 

Him being facing Amyrlin wrath and  being cowed by it.

 

Curse you Egwene.

 

[argonath]

Well...

 

If Rand HADNT changed, then there would have been no need for Cadsuane in the picture.

 

Imagine if you were a farmer who became the Dragon Reborn in such a short period of time... meshed with so many different cultures (had to learn and understand EACH ONE), had to fight with the original Dragon in your head... and have to struggle over a sickness caused by the intertwining of the One Power and the True Power... which anyone besides someone tied to the Dark One was every supposed to use.

 

There are certain things that everyone can adapt to... and certain things that are ingrained.  Not desiring to hurt women by primarily the Emonds Fielders (Manetheran stock) is not out of the realm of being a point that is uncrossable by Mat, Perrin, or Rand.  It seems to be a trait held only by the borderland nations (minus Saldea), and Manetheran.

 

Here is PART of what the issue is... since the book series is Soooooo long, we learn to like a character as portrayed and solidified in the first 4 books.  But, they CHANGE so much, that it is hard to relate to the 'new' character, and as such, I think we criticize too often because its NOT the character that we dislike, it is the conflict in ourselves on what the character should be.

 

Faile is always an enigma because I feel she is ALWAYS trying to be something she is not.  I suspect deep down, her father wished she was a boy not a girl, and so Faile fights hard to exhibit traits a man would... control, ownership, governance, military skills etc... and in Saldea, like the other borderlands, one cant show weakness.  So Faile often gets herself put into situations BASED on her trying to be something she is not.

[aevogt]

Let's get one thing straight.

 

Elaida's fortelling says ..."the Dragon Reborn (Rand)will face the Amrylin Seat (presumably Egwene) and know her anger"  or words to that effect.

 

That doesn't mean a Rand is going to be scared or cowed or humiliated.

 

To me that more likely means that Egwene is probably going to be ripping on him for the forced bonding incidents.  Which, let's face it, were dangerouly close to rape. 

 

Those 51 Aes Sedai should be released, as should any Ashaman who wishes to be.  Otherwise, the bond holders are no better than the Seanchan.

 

 

 

[Rasta Ashaman]

There are only two things, or rather, actions that cross-cut through the whole series, that I think a lot of readers definitely come to dislike by the time they reach end of KoD: sniffing and the unnecessary straigthening of the skirts - almost like a nail on the blackboard :)

[Dreadlady]

I disliked the women's attitude .. for most of the books, I just wanted to SLAP Egwene. I really hated her always belittling Rand (and any other man). She was the worst until Fiale came along.

 

I felt puzzled that the women were so rude, and the men 1) didn't notice, and 2) fell madly in love with them. If I were Perrin, and someone was as snotty as Zarine was, I'd want to throw her off the boat.

 

While we're at it, I didn't like the whole Tylin-Mat thing. Picture the outrage if their sexes were reversed, and a man did that to a woman.

 

Even so, I love the series. I would have liked 14 or 15 books. I actually like the long intricate details. RJ's physics degree shows in his writing; everything is so logical. Things fit together. It's like reading a mystery: little clues embedded in the detail.

 

 

[anamul]

The first condition to be in any kind of authority is to get the facts straight. know the subject.

 

Rand hadn't ordered the Ashaman to bond them. Also you are forgeting that they attacked the black tower. There wasn't any other alternate ways for the ashaman to hold them.

 

Alana bonded Rand against his will. Rand was kidnaped....there is a hundred reason for what Rand does.Also as soon as he heard about the bonding, he wasn't happy and ordered to let equal amount of Aes sedai bond Ashaman.

 

So Egwene would have no business berating him...other than to show other aes sedai, that she is cool and she can berate the Dragon Reborn anytime she wants.

 

There isn't any valid or logical reason for her to throw a tantrum.

 

_______________________________________

 

Can I kill Egwene now???

[benr]

Egwene has never needed a reason to be mad at Rand.  Once they knows she will be Amyrlin, anyone could have made this prophecy.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Egwenes attitude towards Rand annoys me as well. She may be changing recently but if I was Rand I wouldnt have tolerated ANY belittling at all. Especially after finding out I could channel.

 

Egwene: "Rand, stop being so pigheaded!"

 

Rand: "This is your first and only warning. Be quiet."

 

Egwene: "Don't be do-" Balefire. Jobs done.

[trakand_01]

I think with Egwene/Rand though, he's very much used to her belittling him. It's how they've grown up. in fact the first time we meet them together, he's stumbling over his words and she's just getting annoyed at him.

 

It's the way of the world  ;)

[Guest Dreadlord]

Something else that bugged me is that at the Cleansing they become aware of Halima channeling Saidin. "She holds Saidin!" You would think that that would have got everyones attention, especially with her using Saidin to attack whoever, yet she managed to get away. Aran'gar could-and should-have been captured then. But never mind. Im more annoyed at Demandred for fleeing when Flynn equalled him. Demandred let me down in that scene.

[Majsju]

In KOD you will learn why they did not capture Aran'gar.

[aevogt]

"The first condition to be in any kind of authority is to get the facts straight. know the subject."

 

I don't consider myself an expert but after 18 years reading them, I do know the material pretty well.

 

The topic under dicussion whether Rand would be humiliated due to Elaida's foretelling, not your personal opinions on Egwene rights.

 

As to that however, Rand founded the BT.  Any actions done by any of those under it's auspices are HIS responsibility, whether he ordered it or not.  That's what being the commander means. 

 

Yes, he was bonded against his will.  That does not give him, or any other Ashaman the right to bond an aes sedai against their will.  Alanna will be punished in turn.  Turnabout only leads to chaos.

 

Yes, those 51 women were intending to attack the BT.  That does not give the Ashaman to enslave them.  Kill them?  Sure. Capture them? Absolutely.  Bond them against their will? No.  That's just slavery and as we've seen from the example of the Seanchan (not to mention numerous real world examples) it's just wrong. 

 

Granted, the AS in the third age are insufferable and it's enjoyable to see one of them brought down a peg or six, but it all leads back to an out of control Black Tower that Rand is pretty much ignoring, even after Logain warns him about it.

 

If egwene gets on his case for that alone, she'll be right to do it.

 

And dreadlord,  Rand Balefiring Egwene?  You did read the series, right?   

[benr]

"

 

Yes, he was bonded against his will.  That does not give him, or any other Ashaman the right to bond an aes sedai against their will.  Alanna will be punished in turn.  Turnabout only leads to chaos.

 

Yes, those 51 women were intending to attack the BT.  That does not give the Ashaman to enslave them.  Kill them?  Sure. Capture them? Absolutely.  Bond them against their will? No.  That's just slavery and as we've seen from the example of the Seanchan (not to mention numerous real world examples) it's just wrong. 

 

 

   

 

Taim was under repeated orders from Rand to not fight any AS.  He chose the bonding as a way to avert disaster, not to mention a major confrontation with Rand.  Given the choice of death or bonding, I know what I would choose.  Bonding can be reversed.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Iv read KoD but I cant remember why... care to remind me?

[Majsju]

Iv read KoD but I cant remember why... care to remind me?

 

From Narishmas story to the Hall, fighting Aran'gar off was all they could manage. Ie they were certainly not in a position of enough strength to try to capture her, especially not with a dying Asha'man desperatly holding on to life being the tip of the scale in their favour.

[mabbott74]

Let's get one thing straight.

 

Elaida's fortelling says ..."the Dragon Reborn (Rand)will face the Amrylin Seat (presumably Egwene) and know her anger"  or words to that effect.

 

That doesn't mean a Rand is going to be scared or cowed or humiliated.

 

To me that more likely means that Egwene is probably going to be ripping on him for the forced bonding incidents.  Which, let's face it, were dangerouly close to rape. 

 

Those 51 Aes Sedai should be released, as should any Ashaman who wishes to be.  Otherwise, the bond holders are no better than the Seanchan.

 

 

 

 

I would rather be bonded than dead.. which I believe is how they rationalized their decision.

[benr]

Iv read KoD but I cant remember why... care to remind me?

 

Wow..I took this to mean you couldn't remember why you read KoD at all; I thought perhaps it was all of the time spent on Perrin/Faile in WH and CoT.

[DemandredFO]

On the whole women thing, this a reverse-gender roles middle ages and women were treated like the men are in WOT.  Those that got uppity i.e. Joan of Arc were burned at the stake.  The suicidal chivalry does get annoying but, then again, I think that attitude was prevelant at one time in the real world. 

[Guest Dreadlord]

I didn't mean it like that benr

[aussie_ashaman123]

Im sure the Aes Sedai would choose bonding over death as well. And the things theyre being made to do isnt that onerous or demeaning really, dont hurt ashaman and dont channel without permission in a place where a woman channeling will probably cause a riot.

 

If they want to die, I'm sure a few quiet words and they can be buried in a nice grave somewhere near by.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Taim was under repeated orders from Rand to not fight any AS.  He chose the bonding as a way to avert disaster

UNQUOTE

 

You really think thats the reason?

 

This is how I saw it. Taim works for the Shadow-I have no doubt about that whatsoever. On top of that, Taim hates Aes Sedai-we see that practically every time they are mentioned in his presence. I reckon Taim had the Aes Sedai bonded by the Ashaman for two reasons. 1) Because he would LOVE to see them as helpless as they are when bonded, because a form of Compulsion was added to the bond. The Aes Sedai physically cannot disobey the Ashaman, and Taim would be loving every minute of it. 2) Bonding Aes Sedai against their will could only have crated damage, in Taims eyes, to the relationship between the Ashaman and Aes Sedai, making it less likely that Rand will gain the support of any Aes Sedai at all. Two birds, one stone.

 

And yet another benefit also is that there must have been at least some of Taims "favourite pupils" (ie Darkfriends) in those Ashaman that bonded Aes Sedai. That means that the Shadow now have control over at least some non-Black Ajah Aes Sedai. The things they could do with that!!!

[benr]

Yes, I'm sure that all of those reasons played out for Taim.  The bonding hasn't worked out as he had hoped, though.  He has worked to avoid direct confrontation with Rand - he doesn't want a one on one battle with him (yet).  If he did, he's had ample opportunity.  This was one of Rand's few direct orders - one that Taim questioned several times before figuring out that Rand was serious.  Yes, I do think it played a major role in his decision to not destroy the AS even under direct provocation.