Without meaning to be insensitive - in regards to AMOL

[BrainFireBob]

Animus-

 

In conversation, an ejaculatory binge takes negligible effort, and can "just pop out."

 

On a forum, you must log on, hit "add reply," wait for it to load, type things out- a process far longer and more thought-intensive than spoken speech- then hit "submit," or "preview" and then "submit." This makes posting that kind of things on a forum- things that extreme- deliberate and precalculated and/or pre-meditated in a way they are *not* in person. *That* is why I myself responded to it as I did.

[animus]

I can type fast and don't really edit my thoughts since they essentially do go straight from my head to the screen without any more forethought than I give when speaking outright.

[BrainFireBob]

Then you accept full culpability due to your not desiring to bother- which leaves you just as responsible.

[animus]

I dont remember claiming I wasn't responsible. I merely claimed that I ranted in type form because I can type fast enough to keep up with a thought without contemplating the ins and outs of the implications. you all are a bunch of mediocre nerds with mediocre thoughts anyway and none of you should be published in the rare chance that maybe one of you is. so forgive a genius such as myself for tossing a few insults about to people way beneath me who hold jordans series in such high esteem. Go read The Unbearable Lightness of Being or something.

[BrainFireBob]

LMAO

[cloglord]

I merely claimed that I ranted in type form because I can type fast enough to keep up with a thought without contemplating the ins and outs of the implications. you all are a bunch of mediocre nerds with mediocre thoughts anyway and none of you should be published in the rare chance that maybe one of you is. so forgive a genius such as myself for tossing a few insults about to people way beneath me

 

Troll.....oh wait, maybe I shouldn't call him a troll, maybe a response is exactly what he wants from this encounter........Hmmm, I wish I wasn't so mediocre, then maybe my brain could keep up with my typing, wow I'm really good at typing, thanks Mavis BEacon, heh, Mavis is a funny name, I don't know if I've ever met anyone named Mavis before, but you know what that reminds me off?  Remember when Mr. Rowland would let us play Oregon Trail or Burger time, when we got our typing assignments done early.  I miss Burger time, I wonder if I could download that game online.  I think you can, didn't I download DigDug once.  I wonder what site that was?  Hmm,...was it a freeware site or a shareware site?  I think maybe it didn't work out too well, wasn't the CPU too fast, and didn't it cause the game to run too fast.  That sucked, because I was all ready to play DigDug, and the game ran too fast, and the little things would always get you.  Maybe if I could type faster, then it wouldn't matter how fast the game went, I bet I could get really good at typing if all I did was troll around on message boards typing stream of consciousness bu!!$h1t.  Wow I am good at typing! I typed bu!!$h1t using numbers and symbols so that I could get around the language filters and I didn't even have to think about it.  I wonder why more people don't realize how cool I am.  I suspect its because they don't get to hear this stuff.  WoW! another side effect of my self taught typing master-class!  Now people will be subjected to my wisdom, and I'll get even better at typing.  I bet people will really come to appreciate my superior intellegence and typing skills now.  This was a really good idea.  The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.  Pipolotta Delicatessen Windowshade Macromitt Ephraim's Daughter Longstocking.  Mercury, Venus Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus (heh I typed Urnaus), Neptune and Plute.  Excpet Pluto's not a planet anymore, its been downgraded to a dwarf planet.  That sucks, because it totally screws up that whole Roman mythology  thing.  I mean really?  PLuto, the dwarf God of the underworld?  Sounds like Gimli dwarf God of Moria.  Oops, didn't mean to type that, I hope nobody thinks that I'm a medicore nerd....I mean Tolkien is cool and all, but not like Star Trek or Babylon 5.  Crap, did it again.  Hmm, girls are pretty, I  mean I've got like 6 girlfriends now, they don't know each other or anything, they all think I'm pretty cool.  It's cause I got a DeLorean that I bought off of E-bay.  Girls are suckers for doors that open different.  I took one of them out to Red Lobster the other night, and it cost like $200 bucks, but thats no big deal, because when I'm not typing, I'm busy being a cardiac surgeon for orphaned baby pandas and stuff.  Man my fingers are starting to get tired, I'm going to need them cause I've got like 40 panda heart transplants to do tommorrow, so I'd better stop.

 

 

 

 

Poop.     

[trakand_01]

Snigger... good post Cloglord. Dont you just love those 'highly intelligent' people who just can't help but bite...

 

Wait for it...

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

you all are a bunch of mediocre nerds with mediocre thoughts anyway and none of you should be published in the rare chance that maybe one of you is. so forgive a genius such as myself for tossing a few insults about to people way beneath me who hold jordans series in such high esteem. Go read The Unbearable Lightness of Being or something.

 

Goodkind, is that you???

 

No really, are we mediocre minds because we disagree with you? Or are we mediocre minds because we agree with each other? (I would assume, if your line of logic was according to the second question, that you believe that since we agree with each other then we are too weak to take a position which is unpopular. Not so, for me at least. I chose the position which I believe is correct.)

 

If we are mediocre minds for neither reason, then surely you wouldn't mind enlightening us mediocre minds as to what led you to believe we were mediocre.

 

No games. The fact, the very simple fact of the matter, is this: You have not defended your argument. I have defended mine. If my assumption were so terrible as to make me a "mediocre mind," then it would seem a given that there would be some very obvious flaw in my logic. Yet there is none. So my scenario is not only coherent, but possible.

 

I have adamantly countered everything you have said, quoting every single line to debate you and disprove you with your own words. You have, apparently, ignored those parts of my post which disproved you, claiming that they "lacked depth or relevance."

 

If I said everything to you that you said to me, would you respect my opinion more, or less? Less, I think. Therefore, I find it hard to understand why you continue to post in this thread at all, actually. You obviously aren't trying to persuade anyone, because if you were you wouldn't make comments like the ones I quoted in my last post.

[Mathias]

I dont remember claiming I wasn't responsible. I merely claimed that I ranted in type form because I can type fast enough to keep up with a thought without contemplating the ins and outs of the implications. you all are a bunch of mediocre nerds with mediocre thoughts anyway and none of you should be published in the rare chance that maybe one of you is. so forgive a genius such as myself for tossing a few insults about to people way beneath me who hold jordans series in such high esteem. Go read The Unbearable Lightness of Being or something.

 

Comments such as this evidence a true lack of education.  One's level of education should be immediately obvious without having to notify others of that fact.  Doing so merely undermines your credibility and makes you look like a buffoon.  Also, you may wish to review sentence structure, punctuation, and capitalization before you write anything in the future. 

[trakand_01]

Animus, just a little thing, but if we are so far beneath you, if we, to your upmost annoyance dont always agree with your theories (which if you look about, no-one believes ANYONE's theories 100%, that's the beauty of us all being individual) and you dont hold the series in as high esteem as we, then it begs the question why you keep coming back?

 

 

[anamul]

Animus,

You have fallen victim to the very thing TG despises in SOT series. That is

YOU ARE BLINDLY DEPENDING TG, WHEN DEEP DOWN YOU KNOW VERY WELL THAT HE IS GUILTY AS CHARGED.

 

I have read SOT and a huge fan. Yor are troubled because you think if u can't depends Terry, or if it is proven that he did stole ideas from WOT, the philosophy you come to believe and respect will crumble.Just because Terry might disappoint you doesn't mean, what you believe in or the philosophy you abide by is wrong or will be wrong.

 

Also, I may not personaly a fan of Terry, but I like two of the characters he created in the series, one being Kahlan Amnel and other Cara. He might have created them accidentaly or because something in him that gets him published created the two character but I will not like them less just because Terry is.....amm...u know.

 

Anyway, he stole from Ayn Rand....on a huge scale....I believe in Abstract philosophy....but that doesn't mean I don't believe in the creator.

 

By which I mean is that, Ayn Rand was victim of her own prejudice about the existance of creator.

She assumed that creator doesn't exist, because the contemporary religion failed her or the society.

 

Never in her entire life did she ever thought that, well...a Great force and a greater consciesness may exist outside of religion.

 

All I am saying, is that just try to be flexible...take everything that is good and reject everything that isn't right.

 

 

[trakand_01]

Also, I may not personaly a fan of Terry, but I like two of the characters he created in the series, one being Kahlan Amnel and other Cara.

 

I completely agree. Whilst i much prefer RJ and his stories for their depth, and the variation in characters, I absolutely love the Mord Sith and Cara most of all. I would love to see the Mord Sith in the WoT series.

 

Perhaps if we journeyed further into Shara...

[Verbal32]

I don't know why I read all 12 pages of this thread, listening to people demean each other, and be generally rude, but for some reason I did.

 

But that's good because, cloglord...that was the best post I have read in quite a while.  I couldn't stop laughing.  Well done!

 

Maybe animus is really a nice person, and just feels like stirring up debate.  :-\

 

And to post something along the lines of the topic, I hope that Harriet finished AMOL.  I think that is what RJ would have wanted...

[Majsju]

Ahem

 

People, be nice.

If you want to be rude and insult people, go find a goodkind forum.

[OzzieAlThor]

Ahem

 

People, be nice.

If you want to be rude and insult people, go find a goodkind forum.

 

Blanket statements are our friend I see.

 

I like both series personally. Goodkind tells a deep, thoughtprovoking story by following 4 or 5 specific people. Jordan does it by following 10 to 15.

 

I would remind everyone of the South Park episode called "Simpsons already did it". They point out, rightly I might add, that "The Simpsons" has basically done every single possible plot contrivance available.

 

Replace The Simpons with Tolkien. I am NOT a big fan of him at all. To assume that all of these series aren't a derivative of what he's done is REDICULOUS. The goal of an author is to find a new way to go over the same story. I love WoT. I love SoT.

 

Stop being asses. They are "books". It's "fake".

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I agree with most of what you say. However...

 

Stop being asses. They are "books". It's "fake".

 

I'm not sure who this is aimed at, but if it is aimed at me, (amongst others, obviously) then I'm taken aback. I don't think, through all of my argument, I've said much at all which was offensive or rude.

 

If I have, though, then I'm sorry.

[CUBAREY]

Replace The Simpons with Tolkien. I am NOT a big fan of him at all. To assume that all of these series aren't a derivative of what he's done is REDICULOUS. The goal of an author is to find a new way to go over the same story. I love WoT. I love SoT.

 

Stop being asses. They are "books". It's "fake". 

 

Its a matter of degree. A red breast, a turkey and an ostridge are all birds. But if it looks like a duck, quaks like a duck and waddles like a duck--it's a duck.

 

And what does the fact that its fiction have to do with the argument?

 

Quote:

 

Goodkind tells a deep, thoughtprovoking story

 

I disagree, Goodkind tells his readers what to think. He hits you over the head with his beliefs and philosophical points, he leaves very little for the reader to think about, either you agree with him or you think he is a jerk (I'm obviously of the second school).

 

 

[Thunderbomb]

 

Quote:

 

Goodkind tells a deep, thoughtprovoking story

 

I disagree, Goodkind tells his readers what to think. He hits you over the head with his beliefs and philosophical points, he leaves very little for the reader to think about, either you agree with him or you think he is a jerk (I'm obviously of the second school).

 

 

Amen

[hurryupnwait]

After finishing Confessor I started a post I think it sums up my thoughts on this nicely:

 

let me start off by saying I found the novels mildly entertaining in the beginning.  Even the philosophical rants were in the beginning thought provoking if a bit long winded.  As the Novels wore on it became more and more difficult to power through Goodkind's "look how smart I am" approach, but when I start something be it book, game, project,etc. I like to power through it no matter how old it can sometimes get.  You might say that I might have a small touch of OCD in that aspect.

 

Unlike the WOT novels there is no way I would re-read those books.  Without getting into specifics I consider myself a quietly religious person.  According to Goodkind that makes me a cowardly idiot.  Too stupid and afraid to grasp the plainly obvious fact that this life is all there is.  That my brief existence is insignificant to the universe.  That is almost a direct quote.  If a person wants to be an atheist, agnostic, or nihilist that is fine with me.  I don't agree but I would not call them blind, stupid, or anything else.  I choose to believe in something more than this life.  Goodkind says I have abdicated reason and reality with that belief.  Faith is for the deficient.

 

One thing I have always loved about the WOT is that RJ has told a story that I find fascinating in its depth and vibrancy.  He has written an enormous story that will encompass a dozen very large novels.  He has accomplished this without coming across as a pompous windbag that is overproud of his command of semantics.  RJ has told a story without insulting me, or trying to talk over my head in a transparent attempt to impress the reader.

[lou]

you all are a bunch of mediocre nerds

 

i think that one actually hurt my feelings. :o

[wvlr]

Unlike the WOT novels there is no way I would re-read those books.  Without getting into specifics I consider myself a quietly religious person.  According to Goodkind that makes me a cowardly idiot.  Too stupid and afraid to grasp the plainly obvious fact that this life is all there is.  That my brief existence is insignificant to the universe.  That is almost a direct quote.  If a person wants to be an atheist, agnostic, or nihilist that is fine with me.  I don't agree but I would not call them blind, stupid, or anything else.  I choose to believe in something more than this life.  Goodkind says I have abdicated reason and reality with that belief.  Faith is for the deficient.

 

If that was one of TG's goals he failed miserably because the story repeatedly called upon people reappearing from the afterlife and in referencing the Keeper (Devil) so many times he has firmly established that there must be a Creator - otherwise why would the Keeper not break free on his own - if there is no real opposition.

 

Even in the last book at least two different Ghosts/Spirits/Angles made appearances in addition to the one that Richard deliberately called up (Dana) all of which were instrumental in Richard's final success.    i.e.  Richard could not have gone to the Underworld without Dana and he would not have gotten his powers back without Rachael's (ghost) mothers assistance, or he would not have been able to come back from the Underworld without  Rachael's mothers (ghost)  assistance and the other guy's assistance, whose mother's ghost, told him to go to the Clay People so they would have another "ancestor calling" thing.

 

 

 

 

Like I said before, I think TG took a lot of elements from WoT and other areas.      I do not have a problem with that – except that he should admit to it.      That said, I think he did some interesting things with those basic WoT (and others) tools.      I liked the Additive/Subtractive magic thing, the mor’syth, the war wizard,  the history – of the magic system – i.e. that the old wizards created many things by taking away things that they did not want and added in things that they did - to create things like the Confessor/Slyth/Gar etc. ,  Black vs. White Wizard sand and many more.    And some of his preaching was OK.

 

That said, I think that he had the basis for what could have been an excellent series – but chose to sacrifice (his) series to his soap box style rantings.

[Ashaman Kovan]

There is a character from a small village that gets dragged into a big fight that he wants nothing to do with, but ends up being the hero. Seriously, think about it.  Do you really think Robert Jordan was the first one to ever come up with that plotline?

 

Either you haven't read the SoT series...or you are just ignorant of the truth of the issue.

 

The issue is not what you were referring to (which is called the Monomyth by the way).

 

The issue is the similarity in the smaller things.

 

Look at Luckers post for more info.

 

But, to be brief, there are these, at least:

 

The rada'han - a thing very, very similar to an a'dam. It's a collar used to hold a wizard(channeler)

 

The Sisters of the Light - an organization similar to the Aes Sedai, particularly almost exactly like the Red Ajah.

 

The Sisters of the Dark - a lot like the Black Ajah

 

Blood of the Fold - similar to the Hand of the Light of the Children

 

And, if you haven't read them, trust me when I say that it is just too clearly similar in very precise aspects to be coincidence.

 

But, I wouldn't say that the books shouldn't be read. Books 1 through 4 were pretty good, though I haven't read the rest.

 

And also, I think, far more of a problem than the similarity, is how he uses his books as a platform for his philosophy.

 

This has irked me a bit. Some of his wizard rules, and their explanation, such as the first, really both me:

 

"People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People’s heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."

 

 

He clearly is very full of himself. I can feel it through the text.

 

Just in defense of at least that first rule. He doesn't mean that a person individually is stupid. He means people as a whole...Like an angry mob or something to that effect. And I think he has a great point. The biggest example that comes to mind...Ummmmm WMD's! Look how easily everyone went along with that because they were afraid it was true. I think thats a pretty good example don't you? Other than that though. I've read the whole SoT series and the WoT series, and I do have to say that WoT is by far the better. I do like the SoT but those books for me are like one hit wonders. I read them all once and they were pretty good, but there was no temptation to go back and read again, nothing in the later books to make me go "Wait a second" and go grab an earlier book to check something. Unlike the WoT series, which i'm currently on my 5 re-read of lol.

[DuDZiK]

Not entirely sure...but I believe that Goodkind was quoted saying that he had never before heard of the WoT series. Which imo has to be a blatant lie. Considering that it has set a new standard in writing that all fantasy series (including his own) is going to be compared to.

 

Actually it's not a lie. Mr Goodkind is actually barely literate, and doesn't read much himself.

 

I happen to like Goodkind's books, although not nearly as much as I LOVE RJ's WOT. However, many WOT fans "hate" or "despise" Goodkind because his Sword of Truth books have waaaay too many similarities to the some of the plotlines and characters over here in RJ's Wheel of Time series.

 

And RJ has waaaay too many similarities to other fantasy novels that came before him (i.e., Tolkien), and they in turn have way to many similarities to other myths and folklore stories.  If people want to use originality as a point of contention, they would have to hate all stories back until the first stories told by human kind, because they same kind of stories have been told for countless millenia.

 

1. rada'han = a'dam

 

They're not that similar, actually, other than that they are magical collars.

 

The a'dam is something that cannot be taken off by the person who is wearing it, but in the rada'han can be, and quite easily. The use of the collar is quite different as well. The a'dam is used by the Sul'dam to completely control the power of ONLY those who can channel. The rada'han can be used on gifted and ungifted alike.

 

2. Sisters of the Light = Aes Sedai (in manner and action, as well as organisation).

 

They are a bit similar, true, but there are still notable differences. The SotL are an organization on the outskirts of one region that are dedicated to teaching wizards how to use their gift and that's it. The White Tower and the Aes Sedai are involved in almost all aspects of the world of the wetlands and try and become involved in those lands and people beyond. The SotL have a very much isolationist policy.

 

I mean they're both organizations of women who are magical. That's a very general concept, especially for a fantasy series, so unless you going to assert that mr Jordan has ownership of such a concept (which he doesn't, the Norse mythology has the Valkyrie for instance), then arguing that Goodkind ripped off Jordan's concept is ridiculous.

 

3. Sisters of the Dark = Black Ajah (again in action, mythology and reaction).

 

Same thing. An evil and 'hidden' sect within said organization of magical women.

 

4. Wizards Webs = Weaves (oh, but the Wizards Webs have six elements including ice. ICE! Totally different).

 

Except the term 'weaves' is very rarely used. In general, how wizards and sorceresses use magic in the Sword of Truth series is quite different from those who can channel in the Wheel of Time. If you'd read it all in detail, you'd know that.

 

5. Kahlan = Moiraine... in terms of powerful woman come to remote destrict to sweep up soon to be significant farmer.

 

Are you serious? A heroine-female character is even MORE of a general concept than a magical order. Kahlan did not 'sweep up' Richard, and neither was Richard a farmer. Kahlan was looking for the 'great wizard', and once she did she planned on ditching Richard before he could learn what she was. Richard got caught up because he became what she wanted, which she did not foresee. In fact, when she realized what Zedd meant to do, she tried to stop him.

 

6. Seanchan = Imperial Order

 

Um... no. The Imperial Order is THE enemy of the series, and though both are empires (again, general concepts that Jordan does not 'own') they are very different in ideology and practice.

 

7. Aiel = D'hara (umm... maidens anyone?)

 

Um... no. The Aiel are people ideologically, physically, and even generally very distinct from D'Hara. I'm wondering if you've ever read the Sword of Truth series in much detail at all, other than to come to learn the basic people/groups.

 

Don't get me started on themes and events.

 

Don't get me started on the themes and events that Jordan 'stole' from stories in human history.

 

Most if not all of these things you claim that Goodkind 'stole' from Jordan are things that have been used in stories and myths and folktales for thousands of years, but I see you either did not know this or have conveniently overlooked it.

 

I think the main reason why some people dislike the Sword of Truth is because... well simply put they did not like it. A story will never be liked by everyone. I know some people who cannot stand the Wheel of Time series for various reasons, including the idea that Jordan 'stole' ideas and concepts from Tolkien. Sound familiar to anyone? It's one thing to dislike a book or books because you simply didn't like the writing style, the story, or whatever. That's a subjective issue that would be impossible to overcome, but it's quite another thing to accuse an author of stealing another author's ideas when really, 'originality' is mostly something many centuries in the past.

 

Another thing, the reason why Goodkind uses so many of Ayn Rand's concepts is because his is a series dedicated to Rand's philosophy of Objectivism. He is portraying her ideals through his series as one of her adherents, he is not 'stealing' her concepts and ideals, he is reusing them in another medium. Saying so is as ridiculous as accusing any Christian author from stealing the bible's ideas or Christ's ideologies.

 

Myself, I love both the Wheel of Time and Sword of Truth series but for different reasons. I can understand people saying that they don't like the Sword of Truth series, but some of the statements like: "the world would be better if Goodkind burned in hell" or "Goodkind is the worst thing to happen to this world since Hitler", just seem to tell me that some people hold a hatred of mr Goodkind that is irrational. It sounds like they just WANT to hate him, but have no real reason to, kind of like radical relgious people hating gays, or radical muslims hating americans.

[Tyrell]

In fact, when she realized what Zedd meant to do, she tried to stop him.

 

I'm sorry, there's someone called Zedd in the series? Unless this is the Men In Black which can get away with it on account of covering the other 25 letters, that's just beyond forgivable.

[DuDZiK]

In fact, when she realized what Zedd meant to do, she tried to stop him.

 

I'm sorry, there's someone called Zedd in the series? Unless this is the Men In Black which can get away with it on account of covering the other 25 letters, that's just beyond forgivable.

 

Actually his full name is Zeddicus Z'ul Zorander, but everyone calls him Zedd for short.