WoT Season 2 Episode 6: Eyes Without Pity

[Mirefox]

3 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Even though people have been focusing on the sexual component of BDSM as a way to deny that what we saw in any way resembles that lifestyle/kink, I was and remain focused on the 'carrot and stick' aspects of said lifestyle/kink which are very much present and used in conjunction with the outright and unbridled physical violence that was characteristic of the way that Masters and/or Overseers treated slaves historically.

 

To use a few specific examples of how what we saw fits into BDSM, you have, in no particular order, 1) the 'I see no reason not to let you keep your name', 2) the cajoling/caressing, and 3) the closing 'good girl' remark

All of which fit the book’s depiction of the relationship of a trainer breaking a wild animal.  Why make it more than it is?

Edited September 23, 2023 by Mirefox

[DigificWriter]

 

9 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

so what? carrot and stick is a component of every social interaction. your boss will give you promotions for good behavior and demotions for bad behavior, it does not mean you are in a bdsm relation with your boss. you may slap your dog for peeing on the floor, but it does not make you in a bdsm relatioinship with your dog.

in the past, corporal punishment for misbehaving kids were commonplace, both in the faily and in school. it does not mean every parent had a bdsm relationship with his children, every teacher with his students.

carrot and stick is simply an attempt to influence behavior, and violence is simply a bigger stick - one that our modern western society mostly tries to avoid, but that has been prevalent in many other uses.

 

ever since fifty shades has brought that kink to the general public, there's people who see it everywhere. no. just because someone is slapping someone else, it doesn't have to have something to do with bdsm. just because someone is trying to coerce someone else into changing behavior, it doesn't have to have something to do with bdsm. please. stop. seeing. it. everywhere!

 

There's are very specific ways that Doms offer their Subs 'the carrot and stick' that directly match Renna's actions.

 

3 minutes ago, Mailman said:

BDSM requires consent

 

 

No, it doesn't.

 

 

[Cipher]

53 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

yes indeed.

 

and there is also the natural tendency to try to make the best of your situation. you can't do anything about being damane, so you try to get as comfortable a life as possible in the circumstance. you try to get rewards and avoid punishment, because punishment sucks and rewards make your life better. eventually you stop thinking about it and you behave by habit.

perhaps you start buying into the seanchan system of values. by virtue of repetition, you end up believing that the seanchan empire is a great wonderful thing and you should try hard to enforce it, because this gives a value to your life, and believing that your life has value is a fundamental human need. those that end up there are the best damane, those that even if freed may keep fighting for the empire.

And that goal is better reached by using violence as little as possible. it's easier to persuade a damane to love the empire by telling her of how evil were uncollared aes sedai, power corrupts and we are protecting you from that corruption, and how her channeling potential is used for the good of all, she should be proud of that.

In fact, looking at the history of slavery, we find plenty of examples of slaves that got along with their masters, were happy in slavery, never tried to escape even when they could, and they all have two common things: the slave was well treated, and the slave had a personal stake in things. the slave that was put to raise the children of the master often ended up like a surrogate mother, and was treated like a family member. in turn, she had an easier life than other slaves. on the other hand, I've never read of slaves that were beaten extra hard and ended up loving their captors. they may be frightened into compliance, but never made loial.

the books themselves also support this: renna is marked as a particularly harsh suldam even by other suldam. tuon is a great suldam because she does not mistreat her damane. though she has it easier by playing good cop / bad cop with renna.

by the way, I think it was also mentioned in the books that ryma was dieing before being taken by tuon, and even other suldam had given up on her, which again shows that people with exceptionally strong willpower can resist the adam to some extent. and, ryma being a good person, kindness was more effective in winning her loialty.

 

it's just that, put all of that together, and it's really, really, really rare for someone to retain that spark of rebellion - or to even want to.

 

but the whole tangent started on whether egwene would have been broken. she would have certainly been beated into compliance, but even then, if some years later she was offered the chance to take part in a prisoner exchange, she would have retained enough of herself to want freedom again.

Those of us who are readers know the utter compliance “damane” have.  Egwene isn’t special in that regard.  She would be made to submit no matter what.  No doubt there have been murath damane who immediately followed orders and did what the sul’dam required.  I believe under those conditions the suldam obtain obedience and then order the damane to strike them with the pitcher.  It ends up being a damned if you do, damned if you don’t scenario.  So the compliant damane will still suffer tremendous pain and learn the lesson of what results from violent rebellion.

 

what is the deal with damane and Domani?  AIR?

[SinisterDeath]

11 hours ago, Mailman said:

If you think this is how BDSM Dom/sub relationships work then you really need to educate yourself.

RJ's writing has always had a kink for spankings and humiliation. It's literally littered throughout the series.

 

When It came to RJs "Dom" stuff, it was entirely one sided. They're not a consenting dom/sub relationship found in modern society. They're one sided, power fantasies like what you'd find in a horror movie which people dub "torture porn".

 

 

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

No, it doesn't.

It's abuse without consent

[Gary Again]

Wow that was pretty amazing stuff from Egwene she was great this episode and honestly Renna did an amazing job as well towing that line between affectionate like to a pet but completely un empathetic to them as a human being. It could have been really over the top insensitive brutality but Renna walked that line really well. Also just the subtle thing of having Egwene destroy the one thing she was able to look at out her window that brought her a piece of happiness. Just brutal. They have done an absolutely amazing job establishing the Seanchan, with the oaths and Uno, Egwene showing the Damanae and just the costumes I am impressed.

 

The Ryma scene was also incredibly well done just the combination of that and Egwene were so emotionally powerful. It's going to be so sad to see Pura but the impact of these moments are going to really drive things home. I thought it was cool how hard Liandrin tried to recruit Nynaeve and used anger to get her to channel but Ryma used the desire to heal and may have actually been successful in recruiting Nynaeve to the yellow and then I think that moment where Ryma said sister was powerful to Nynaeve and may make her ride or die Aes Sedai and set up a nice distinction from her seeming to not place a lot of value on Aes Sedai and primarily being there for Egwene. This may be the first time Nynaeve actually wants to be an Aes Sedai or feels a connection to them. Elayne and Nynaeve was great and they do have really good chemistry together and I'm glad to see it because I enjoyed seeing both of them separately but you never know if they will actually have chemistry together but they make a really great odd couple and balance each other well Nynaeve's simmering rage and Elayne's cool aloofness. Also a kind of cool moment where Elayne says she is there because Egwene is her friend and she doesn't have other friends I feel like Nynaeve is there for the same reason so that felt like a cool moment between them that we may see expanded on in the future.

 

Also liking the whole Lanfear/Rand/Moiraine thing I don't think Moiraine has a lot of good ideas or plans at this point she is pretty much pushed to her limits and her losing control of the situation tracks well with what started happening at this point in the books. I think Lanfear and Ishy last year planting doubts in Rand makes more sense to me than the way Rand acted toward Moraine in the books it always seemed a little extreme and kind of came out of nowhere in the books, like his reactions seemed pretty extreme compared to anything Moiraine actually did but here it feels pretty organic. Also fits in well with how the shadow is making people fear and doubt themselves or each other. There is also a real sense that there are things the shadow is effectively moving pieces on the game board and the good guys are completely oblivious. It's cool that everything up to this point either has Ishy or Lanfear's hand directly causing it and from their perspective everything is happening occurring to plan. It's really effective and that is one of my big hopes for the show is we have a more consistently threatening shadow.

 

I think the Lan thing was bad, I understand that it tied up a few things story wise because it sets up the Amerlyn meeting Rand, sets up one of the main white tower plots but it would really undermine the relationship between Lan and Rand and I don't think it's worth it to do that to set up a couple plot points. In the books Lan was someone Rand could just trust no matter what and I don't think he ever even really questioned or doubted Lan which is pretty rare. This is my least favorite way for the Amerlyn to find out about Rand out of any possibility. If they wanted to set up that Lan thought it was a good idea to tell the Amerlyn he should have just decided to tell her and that is what he was wrestling with over the past two episodes and have what the warders were saying to him be helpful in making that decision, by making it under duress and then Lan just instantly caving just adds unnecessary lameness to it, it doesn't really add anything and takes away a lot.

 

Seeing Mat and Rand was great I loved those moments in the books where they would randomly meet up I had mentioned the TAR ones but just the moments in world they would run across each other. I like that again doubt is keeping them apart I don't think Ishy planted the vision but I think he's taking full advantage of it. I really liked how quickly Mat put things together it's something I liked with Agelmar is how quickly he pieced things together in that moment he saw the attack and it seemed similar with Mat how he saw the pieces fit together so quickly. Sad to see Min drowning her sorrows but I think at the end her coming clean to Mat is taking a big risk and will hopefully put him in the right place. If they do the portal stones I hope Mat is part of it.

 

Also really dig Moiraine's sister and Barthanes I think they are both amazing and as a book reader have me guessing a bit what is going to happen with them which I enjoy. Again I think whoever is doing casting for this show needs an award because they keep doing an amazing job role after role the consistency is remarkable.

[Windigo]

17 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

RJ's writing has always had a kink for spankings and humiliation. It's literally littered throughout the series.

 

When It came to RJs "Dom" stuff, it was entirely one sided. They're not a consenting dom/sub relationship found in modern society. They're one sided, power fantasies like what you'd find in a horror movie which people dub "torture porn".

 

 

RJ was influenced by his experiences and the times he lived in, the subjugation and breaking of the Damane came in part from his experiences in Vietnam.
Until more recently switching, spankings and and other corporal punishment, was common in most home and school situations, as was the use of physical labor especially in a boarding school situation like the White Tower. 

 

[DigificWriter]

30 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

It's abuse without consent

 

Agreed.

 

Technically speaking, though, the practice of BDSM itself doesn't explicitly require consent, as a person can/could be unwillingly dominated by another person even if/though it's generally expected for consent (consensual non-consent) to be given by the Sub and respected by the Dom.

[king of nowhere]

Am i the only one worried about the kind of spambots we could attract with all those sex discussions?

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, Cipher said:

 No doubt there have been murath damane who immediately followed orders and did what the sul’dam required.  I believe under those conditions the suldam obtain obedience and then order the damane to strike them with the pitcher.  It ends up being a damned if you do, damned if you don’t scenario.  So the compliant damane will still suffer tremendous pain and learn the lesson of what results from violent rebellion.

nah, it wouldn't be nowhere near as bad for her. she is ordered to strike the suldam. she can't grab the picther. then she is ordered to pour water. she grabs the pitcher immediately. because she never had any desire to use it as weapon anyway. so she would only suffer for a little bit.

 

as a rule of thumb, seanchan are extra brutal in enforcing obedience, but they are kind with those who obey. I don't think the whole 14 books contain a single instance of seanchan using violence against those who submit and obey; I don't think they contain a single line to support the notion.

in fact, seanchan dominion is so effective because of how effectively they wield the stick and carrot. they have a very big stick, but they also have a big carrot. it's amazing that, while in a realistic cetralized dictatorship the ones in power are scheming bastards who only care about keeping power, seanchan has a ruling class of scheming bastards who put power before everything, but who also take seriously their duty to provide security and prosperity for the people. probably comes from their culture putting so much emphasis on duty.

 

So there's no reason to assume damane would be exceptions. those who submit are treated with kindness. those who resist are treated brutally. egwene resisted harder, so she got extra brutality.

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

It seems silly to kwibble about such points, but Egwene will be broken if not rescued. That is the point, you cannot resist. They can hurt you worse than Whitecloak Questioners let you sleep and start all over again and again. And as the a'dam is in your head, you cannot even have rebellious thoughts. Egwene has had to convince herself that she would never hurt Renna, could never. She must submit, and convince herself that she has submitted and will never have any thought of not submitting. That is why it is so horrible. In most situations like this you have to convince your captors you are broken (like for Loial, for example), with the a'dam you have to convince yourself you are broken. There is no way out, the way of resisting, strength of will just makes it take longer and hurt more. 

 

The show might try to make it look like Egwene is resisting or overcoming it, but that would be selling the horror of the situation short. Egwene is completely dependent on outside help to escape, and she needs it quickly before she is completely broken. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that she can do to resist or escape herself.

All you say is right but in the books Egwene does fight, although at one point she tells Min that she does not know how much longer she can. 

[Agitel]

6 hours ago, Windigo said:

RJ was influenced by his experiences and the times he lived in, the subjugation and breaking of the Damane came in part from his experiences in Vietnam.
Until more recently switching, spankings and and other corporal punishment, was common in most home and school situations, as was the use of physical labor especially in a boarding school situation like the White Tower. 

 

 

This is a really key point. I keep hearing about it as if it's sexual or a fetish, but this type of punishment was intended to be seen as treating the receiver as a child getting discipline in many situations. And in others just an adult getting disciplined. The only one that kind of stuck to me as somewhat weird was Mat spanking that Aes Sedai.

[A Memory Of Why]

You guys are weird.. not that there's anything wrong with that, consentually speaking.

 

Like, my mind is totally at least a little corrupted. Crikey, I even noticed the giant hidden innuendo of the cleansing most people miss.

 

But I never read the Damane and Suldum relationships with any sexual connotations, only ever been as horrible, dehumanising slavery.

 

Well, it's not a stretch to get there guess, I just never thought that way.

 

Guess that's the cool thing about art, it's beauty and meaning lie in the eyes of.the beholder 😇

[Windigo]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

 

This is a really key point. I keep hearing about it as if it's sexual or a fetish, but this type of punishment was intended to be seen as treating the receiver as a child getting discipline in many situations. And in others just an adult getting disciplined. The only one that kind of stuck to me as somewhat weird was Mat spanking that Aes Sedai.

Again it may have been weird, and not acceptable or appropriate now,  but it was still treating her like a misbehaving child, in a way that the Aes Sedai understood, and was part of their own tower discipline.  

Plain and simple it is demeaning and or punishment. 
Anyone who remembers having their backside paddled or switched or mouths washed out with soap can tell you it is cruel, demeaning and abuse or as close to the line as can be in many cases, but not sexual.

 

[Storeebooq]

20 hours ago, Mailman said:

 

Aviendha was the one who could identify what Ter'angreal did. She identified the objects recovered from the store room (the dagger to hide from the dark, the libary in the wise man and the water maker). I thought Nynaeve only got a feeling of pain from the male a'dam. Elayne was able to make Ter'angreal.

OOp, you right, I got Aviendha's ability mixed up with Elayne. =] ty!
Though Nyn did get some similar readings to other Ter'angreal like the male A'dam, but all of her stuff was too vague to really be useful. Like she picked up pain from a rod, etc

[Mailman]

9 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Agreed.

 

Technically speaking, though, the practice of BDSM itself doesn't explicitly require consent, as a person can/could be unwillingly dominated by another person even if/though it's generally expected for consent (consensual non-consent) to be given by the Sub and respected by the Dom.

BDSM requires consent otherwise it is an assault, be it physical or sexual, full stop. If at absolutely any point during a BDSM relationship one party withdraws consent and the other party continues it is assault.

It is the same as rape without consent it is no longer sex it is a sexual assault.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

8 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

it's amazing that, while in a realistic cetralized dictatorship the ones in power are scheming bastards who only care about keeping power, seanchan has a ruling class of scheming bastards who put power before everything, but who also take seriously their duty to provide security and prosperity for the people. probably comes from their culture putting so much emphasis on duty.

Much the same with ancient Rome under the ceasars - there was a lot of scheming and executions among the ruling classes while the common citizens enjoyed the benefits of security and the rule of law.  

[DreadLord31]

On 9/22/2023 at 11:13 AM, Sabio said:

Since it really doesn't add a whole lot and with time so limited the scene with Lanfear and her just seems like wasted time.

 Not that I’m much of a show defender - but it could make sense//pay off if Liandrin is replacing Alviarian and Lanfear is replacing Messana 

[A Memory Of Why]

1 hour ago, DreadLord31 said:

 Not that I’m much of a show defender - but it could make sense//pay off if Liandrin is replacing Alviarian and Lanfear is replacing Messana 

 

I don't think so, Liandrins been outed as black. Granted only the girls know at this stage which is the same as the books, pretty sure Verin outed her when she got back to the tower in TDR with the girls, which precipitated the group of blacks fleeing.?

 

We haven't seen anything come from Verins sleuthing yet so I'd guess that'll come to a head soon, plus we saw in the trailer Liandrin, hiding in a cloak looking shady - potentially fleeing 😉

 

I'm thinking this'll set up the Tanchico plot with Moggy for next season.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Wow, this really is a deep discussion about BDSM. Probably I should just let this go, but...

 

BDSM is about sex, it is about getting your kicks by roleplaying dom/sub. It is roleplaying because it is consensual. If you break up, the dom does not keep the sub locked in the basement. All that BDSM pornography where you see people tied up in dungeons have gone to a lot of effort to roleplay that dungeon. Because that is how those little puppies float their boats, which is all fine amongst consenting adults.

 

Enslavement, sexual assault, breaking someone's will, etc, is not sexual. Even if people get off on it, it is primarily about power. It is about taking from the other person. Like if you have a slave, then you want to make sure they do what they are told. You have to assert yourself over them. It's not about a relationship or even sexual satisfaction. This is what BDSM roleplays. Like a novice being spanked for stealing honey cake, compared to someone pretending to be a novice being spanked because it is fun. Takes all sorts.

 

It is a bit silly as we all know what everyone is talking about, and it is just that some people are applying the label of BDSM slightly incorrectly, it is not that probably anyone sees it differently, just what name we giving it. But there we are.

 

On the a'dam maybe I am misreading it, and also it a made up thing, it certainly is not to say that there are not loopholes to be found, but I understood it is as if you were considering using the One Power to kill yourself, even just as a possibility, then you would not be able to embrace the source. Not at the point that you are going to try to do so in the heat of battle, but never ever. Not until you had convinced yourself that you would never do so. If the sul'dam ask you if you will be a good damane then they will know if you are holding back, if you are only playing along. And then they can make you think you are in a pot of boiling oil for a few hours, and then ask again, are you going to be a good damane. And you don't have to convince them that you will be good damane you have to convince yourself, that you will be, that you want to be. The a'dam does not let you resist even in your head.

[Agitel]

I thought it annoying in the last topic, but now I'm just laughing at how every topic takes multiple detours into sex education.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

15 minutes ago, Agitel said:

I thought it annoying in the last topic, but now I'm just laughing at how every topic takes multiple detours into sex education.

Well, we have to learn somewhere eventually...

[Scarloc99]

Ok a lot to get through on this episode. As always I watched with my non book reading wife who has told me very seriously that if I spoil anything, or remotely say how this or that is different from the books she will stop watching the series with me. As she has said, she really doesn't care about the books and she is never going to read them she just wants to enjoy a fun TV show. 

So, this episode got the most visceral reaction out of her so far. The Egwene scenes, Nynaeve's actions resulting in a warder dying and an Aes Sedai losing her freedom, the anguish of Matt being torn between wanting to help his best friend, and being manipulated to hide away, this episode hit every emotional button it was going for. 

Egwene, I will just say scanning the comments someone mentioned this was a BDSM type relationship, no, this is abuse pure and simple. It showed us something the books only hinted at, something Robert Jordan didn't put on the page (and I will mention that in a bit). The acting from both was fantastic, and given we know where this story will go for Renna seeing her like this will, I know, make her fall so much sweeter in my wifes eyes. The scene where Egwene was choked out on the hook my wife actually could not watch, and, something I didn't even pick up on, Renna making Egwene burn down the tree that was her one little link to freedom just cut through. It hammered home that Damane are pets, lower probably even then a dog in how they are seen and treated, and seeing that stripping of all humanity to then give a little glimpse of how she can be made to feel whole, just by linking in that way, was just amazing. 

But, there is a problem with how good these scenes are, in the books the Seanchan are, much like the white cloaks, painted as a forgivable understandable evil. The actual reality of life in slavery is glossed over, after TGH Robert Jordan wrote them to be more noble, they bring peace and make the land's they rule better, safer, more prosperous. As a reader I at least understood the need for Damane from the past, I understood why, in a world with no organisation like the white tower, non channellers might see the reason to collar, especially when Channellers had destroyed the world, and where destroying the continent that had been invaded, brining war not peace and subjugating the people, we never truly see the horror of that level of abuse and control and what it can do to a human being, when the Damane are released we get little tiny glimpses in one sentence 3rd hand accounts but we never have a true POV of a long term Damane, never get to see how her mind has been conditioned, twisted or controlled. When channellers are collared and it is shown in detail it is characters we enjoy seeing that happen to, Elaida, a forsaken. 

Right now in the TV show the seanchan are looking far worse then the dark lord as an option, we have not seen a darkfriend do anything even close to as horrific as the Damane, every scene of slaughter has been long after the event and war is war, people die, we have not seen the real horrors that a dark friend can carry out in the name of the dark lord, and so it is going to be really hard to rehabilitate the way the Seanchan to come across as the more noble, warrior tradition in the books. how will any Seanchan character become relatable, including Tuon, when we have seen this vicious display of open abuse. 

I love the shift in order of things from the books, and again things people have complained about in previous episodes continue to be organically explained if you just wait a breath, we had confirmation that Moiraine had Logain brought to the mad house in order to allow Rand to access him, explaining why that bit of story was tweaked. We had the continuation of Moiraine thinking she is stilled (I have seen loads of people say she will take Siuans story line, that makes no sense at all. How is Moiraine going to educate and train Egwene to be amirylian). I see Moiraines shield being removed by the end of the season, but lets not get back into that debate and WAFO. 

Matt, oh matt, I love this incarnation we are seeing on screen, a far more realistic journey from the reluctant hero to the boy who walked into Tear and took on the black ajah to save the girls in the book, and no, I know we might not get that scene, but that is the arc the character needs to be on to give him the motivation to head to Rhuidean. I do have one concern, is Rand only being stabbed the once, by Fains blade in the TV show? Does this mean no sheathing the sword, or, will Lans lesson come later in the series and they swap the Ishy and Fain fights? Or is the vision not going to play out until a future series, this would show the fakeout elements of the visions, thinking one has been "beaten" only to have it come true later (Siuan and Gareth anyone). Min's only logical release will be from the death of Ishy which leads me to think we are losing this incarnation of the character either at falme, or a little later in Tear. 

Lan, really where is the hate for this Lan storyline coming from, this is the Lan I see in the books, this is the Lan we see with Nynaeve, a Lan who is willing to do his own thing if he thinks the Aes Sedai is on the wrong path, there are several instances in the books where he goes against Moiraines wishes because he thinks she is wrong, or where he does something that she is not happy with. Alanna finding out about Rand this early is a break from the books, but I wonder if we will get her bonding him earlier, but it also gives a stronger reason for Alanna to go to the 2 rivers to find out more about him, putting her there with Perrin, so it is a break I am happy with. It also makes sense that the 3 of them would know Lan is hiding something. I do find it interesting that shrines to teh forsaken are just dotted around the landscape. In the books the only religious organisation are the whitecloaks, there are no shrines, temples, churches. In fact there is no organisaed religion, and the thought that anyone would just allow a shrine to the foresaken to hang around did grate with me personally, but it doesn't break the world. 

Liandrin, ok I called it wrong, I was convinced that man was not her son, I am on the fence with this, I need to separate book Liandrin from the Show, every other character so far, for me, I can see the book character there on screen in some incarnation. She is the first who is so very different. But I also accept the thinking, we need to understand why people make the choice to join the dark lord, and simply throwing "to get power, or to hurt people for a reason" is not good enough. In the books Liandrin joined the black ajah as soon as she passed the test to be aes sedai, being a dark friend her dream from a teenager was to join the Black Ajah (which I always found amusing, a teenage girl in a villiage knows they exist, Aes Sedai in the tower refuse to believe it). That background is hard to be relatable, and in modern storytelling the bad guys need to be relatable, understandable. It is what audiences are now used to. In the books then Liandrin turns on one of the foresaken simply because she thinks she can be a dreadlord herself, she sees they bicker and argue. Here in teh show Liandrin has a different reason to want to turn on the foresaken, and possible Lanfer will take the Moghedien role here (interestingly in the books even though Liandrin was not stilled, it is referred to as her stilling in a number of sources online which again brings me back to Moiraine). What I will sau is that I am loving this story line and where it might lead. 

So overall another great episode building on the back of 4 that are getting stronger. Remembering that Rafe said the feedback from season 1 would be folded into the the very end of season 2 and beyond because season 2 was already filming it does bode well for me that the quality will only improve, and thats what you want from a TV show, for it to get better season by season. The last thing we need is a GOT travesty where the final 3 seasons are immeasurably worse the the opening 3. 

[Scarloc99]

On 9/22/2023 at 1:36 PM, Pandemonium said:

It seems Moiraine is playing the stilled Siuan role in this show?  Makes me wonder if Siuane and Leane will simply be killed after the civil war.  Probably better to kill them off than keep them around in tv medium 

Are you suggesting that Moiraine, who has not been in the tower for 20 years, knows how to train and mould an amirylian seat? No, Moiraine is blocked off, in the same way Liandrin will be later on. This then allows the viewer to understand how this is a worse ounishemt for failing a foresaken the killing her while also making sure Moiraine can't mary sue her way through episode 2 and has a dose of much needed reality. Siuan will be the one to guide Egwene as she does in the books, 

[Scarloc99]

On 9/22/2023 at 4:04 PM, ilovezam said:

I loved this episode but I chuckled a little bit from that bit with the Sitter. IIRC Sitters are selected entirely for their political acumen, and I think neither the book audience or the show-only audience would know to associate Sitters with being more likely to be able to resist torture or anything of the sort.

If anything, my impression of Sitters was that they are mostly just bickering, politicking Sisters who frequently come across as petty and small-minded. They would probably be the first to break under hardship/duress if I had to guess 😛

Actually the book shows that Sitters are picked just as often for there ability to be manipulated by the heads of their own Ajahs, or because they have relationships with others, it is poilitics the "best" candidates don't always sit in the hall, for one thing the best candidates are off out saving the world. This is what leads to the coup and the issues that follow it.