WoT Season 2 Episode 5: Damane

[Mirefox]

I do not follow the casting and all of that so I do not know who I should be expecting on screen at any given time.  I, therefore, may be very, very alone on this, but when Perrin met a good-looking guy in the middle of the burned-out town, my first thought was that it might be Lord Luc.  After this stranger revealed himself to be a whitecloak, I honestly thought he might be Galad.

 

Did anyone else have some way off-base guesses at to his identity before he was revealed as Dain?

[DigificWriter]

44 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

 

The idea of gendered souls is very problematic to Rafe's worldview, which he has explicitly stated he is intentional crafting his version of this story around.  Of course we won't see a gendered One Power (and no, briefly mentioning it in some short that isn't part of the main show absolutely does not count - they've dropped the ball big time with Saidin/Saidar); of course souls aren't gendered; of course the Dragon Reborn has sometimes been a man and sometimes been a woman.  It is patently obvious that Rafe has fundamental disagreements between his modern worldview versus Jordan's classical feminism.  Whether or not any given viewer appreciates that is up to them so I'm not arguing here that it is a good thing or a bad thing, just that it is obvious and should not be surprising.

 

Exactly.

 

One of the very first things that Rafe confirmed about the TV series, in terms of adaptational choices, was a specific and deliberate change to the foundational and metaphysical lore of Robert Jordan's world in order to decouple the idea of binary gender from the concept of reincarnation, thereby allowing him and his writers to treat the question of "who is the Dragon Reborn" not as a misdirectional storytelling tactic (which some people now/still view it as), but as a legitimate unknown within the universe of the show, even if they never actually intended to give a different answer to said question than the one given in the books (Rand).

[DigificWriter]

24 minutes ago, Irvyne said:

I think the problem is, he really hasn't been given a whole lot to do yet in this show, which as the main character is a bit of a problem

 

Josha's Rand isn't the main/Lead character.

 

That honor/distinction was given (and has still been given, despite claims to the contrary that such was only the case for Season 1)  to Rosamund Pike's Moiraine.

[Irvyne]

So I have to admit, although this show does a fantastic job at driving me crazy, this most recent episode was probably the best one yet.

There were moments - like the girls being dropped into Falme by Liandrin - where it was finally beginning to look like a faithful adaptation. Oh look, a scene actually taken from the source material!

The pace was faster, the dialogue better and the story moving towards a definite endgame goal for the season.

I love the actresses playing Verin and Sheriam. Great stuff. More of them please.

Padan Fain is barely a character at all. I wonder if they're even going to take him on the "Ordieth" path or if he'll just fade away as some forgotten darkfriend lap dog. Pretty sure he hasn't said a single word all season.

But overall, huge improvement on last week. Fingers crossed it just keeps getting better from here.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

41 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I'm going further down the rabbit hole of my own spotty memory.  I've read the series multiple times and listened to the audiobook a couple and now I can't remember exactly what happens, lol...stupid aging.

 

In the books, do the Seanchan try to get a collar on Liandrin here, too?  I know the exchange doesn't go down as smoothly as planned.

As I remember it, things aren't going so well between Liandrin and Suroth, and the girls are bewildered. They come forward with the a'dam, which is chaotic but the real problem is that they only brought an a'dam for Nynaeve and Egwene but Elayne was there too, which Liandrin is blamed for and retorts that she cannot be held responsible for Suroth not being able to manage a few girls and they part on very bad terms.

[Mirefox]

3 minutes ago, Irvyne said:

So I have to admit, although this show does a fantastic job at driving me crazy, this most recent episode was probably the best one yet.

There were moments - like the girls being dropped into Falme by Liandrin - where it was finally beginning to look like a faithful adaptation. Oh look, a scene actually taken from the source material!

The pace was faster, the dialogue better and the story moving towards a definite endgame goal for the season.

I love the actresses playing Verin and Sheriam. Great stuff. More of them please.

Padan Fain is barely a character at all. I wonder if they're even going to take him on the "Ordieth" path or if he'll just fade away as some forgotten darkfriend lap dog. Pretty sure he hasn't said a single word all season.

But overall, huge improvement on last week. Fingers crossed it just keeps getting better from here.

I kind of agree.  I think this episode was…ok.  The problem is, when the show is completely off the rails I can just shrug it off as a train wreck.  When the show is closer to the narrative I expect, the amateurish writing becomes more painfully obvious.  

[DreadLord31]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Exactly.

 

One of the very first things that Rafe confirmed about the TV series, in terms of adaptational choices, was a specific and deliberate change to the foundational and metaphysical lore of Robert Jordan's world in order to decouple the idea of binary gender from the concept of reincarnation, thereby allowing him and his writers to treat the question of "who is the Dragon Reborn" not as a misdirectional storytelling tactic (which some people now/still view it as), but as a legitimate unknown within the universe of the show, even if they never actually intended to give a different answer to said question than the one given in the books (Rand).

So these claims Definitely contradict 

 

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

Josha's Rand isn't the main/Lead character.

 

That honor/distinction was given (and has still been given, despite claims to the contrary that such was only the case for Season 1)  to Rosamund Pike's Moiraine.

@Scarloc99’s claim that the show hasn’t made any major metaphysical//arc changing writing decisions. Both of you can’t be correct…. 
 

Go. 

[Jaysen Gore]

My thoughts on episode 5:

 

The decision to use the saa and the Dark One's gift to be a practical immortality solves a bunch of practical concerns around the characters, and will increase the need for a certain weave later on. As the urgency for Moiraine to rediscover the forbidden Balefire can make a great Rosemund Pike story arc for season 3. The Rand / Moirane stuff had some great moments, and I do so hope that we get to see Lanfear stand up from that chair in the next episode. I'd like a full look at that outfit...

With the spoiler news that Elaida has been cast confirmed, that definitely sets up Liandrin on a more in-depth, more visceral version of her book arc, and it will be even more tragic for the audience. What they are doing to add depth to all of the Darkfriends is a great decision. and Liandrin untying Nynaeve increases the dynamic between those two, while at the same time showing that the Darkfriends are NOT a unified force. This was a brilliant little change that conveyed so much that it greatly increased my confidence in the showrunners.

Speaking of Darkfriends, we got two other named female forsaken, as well as a reference to the boys. since there were 8 Forsaken statues, I expect this means Graendal gets Mesaana's role as well as her own, and Semirhage gets dropped completely, which safely eliminates the end of that particular subplot. I expect the boys to be the three generals (Sammael, Rahvin, Demandred) and probably Asmodean. Excising the two that died at the Eye of the World, and were returned removes a whole bunch of problematic stuff that they don't have time to explore well in 64 episodes. Unless Rafe intentionally wants to get into it. And then all bets are off.

On to the pivotal Aiel in a Cage moment, as I suspected / feared, they introduce Aviendha instead of Gaul here, and she kicks all kind of ass with Perrin's help. I think this was overdone - having the two of them take out an entire platoon of whitecloaks was overkill, and will have a hard time creating tension for the Aiel later on in the series. But I do believe we've now seen a second possible source for Perrin's axe - Ingtar carries one and so does Dain. So I expect Perrin to come out of Falme carrying one of them. But there is one very big problem with this - what in the name of Dog are any Aiel doing anywhere near Atuan's Mill and Toman Head? Aviendha is more than half a continent away from the farthest the Aiel actually moved in the books. I get that they're probably going to drop most of the journeys of the EF5 to Tear, but even so, this was a harsh shoehorn. And while she did exposition dump Aiel culture all over Perrin, I'll reserve happiness until i see if this stuff ever gets mentioned again.

I also like that they created a more personal relationship between Perrin and Dain, and it's not just about Perrin and Valda, and Fain. This has another opportunity to be a more genuine story arc for someone who, in the novel at least, is an antagonist for our heroes.

And now we come to everyone's favourite brown sister, Verin. This is a great story, and while it's not the spider in the middle of the web approach to knowing mysteries, we're about the get the Agatha Christie approach - little old lady plays dumb and brings everyone's secrets out into the open. Because 1 of the dark sisters is definitely going to be outed within the tower, and another one might be.

 

Overall, except for Aviendha being half a continent away from where she's supposed to be, this was probably my favourite episode. No it wasn't book faithful, but at least the changes that are being made are working to create more direct personal interactions between the heroes, and villains, and removing some of the more cartoonish villain aspects of the Shadow.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

4 hours ago, MarcusM said:

Right. My mind bogs me apparently. So which is it? The figurine in E108…

It fits the physical description of the one in the books but that was definitely an angreal (weak enough that Rand felt it was safe to use after having problems using calandor) not a major sa'angreal - so either they have upped its power or Moiraine was in error in describing the level of increase it offered.

[Chivalry]

I was disappointed to see Moiraine so freely sacrifice an innocent to Lanfear (not to mention the horse she slaughtered) to aid in her escape. In the books, even when she threatened to kill the boys before allowing them to fall into the hands of the Dark One, the threats felt like hyperbole, to drive home the point that the stakes were high. This adaptation's Moiraine seems to lack some basic humanity.

[Mirefox]

5 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

I was disappointed to see Moiraine so freely sacrifice an innocent to Lanfear (not to mention the horse she slaughtered) to aid in her escape. In the books, even when she threatened to kill the boys before allowing them to fall into the hands of the Dark One, the threats felt like hyperbole, to drive home the point that the stakes were high. This adaptation's Moiraine seems to lack some basic humanity.

We’ve known from S1E1 that innocent lives don’t matter to Moiriane.  She’s not just a manipulator in this show, she’s a sociopath.

[Jaysen Gore]

10 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

We’ve known from S1E1 that innocent lives don’t matter to Moiriane.  She’s not just a manipulator in this show, she’s a sociopath.

Fundamentally disagree here - she's a woman who's chosen to carry the consequences of the Trolley Problem for 20 years, when one set of tracks holds the whole world.  She is the current de facto leader of the forces of light, and leaders don't win wars without making sacrifices. And She knows she will likely need to do worse in order to succeed before the end. That doesn't mean she doesn't care. Win now, grieve later.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Jaysen Gore

[Chivalry]

So...no Gaul, I guess?

[Pandemonium]

At least 2 mentions of compulsion on this episode.  that means we will get to see a character 'under the influence' of compulsion very soon.  I can't really guess who it would be.  I wonder if they  will use compulsion on Barthanes to show how dangerous the shadow can be.  He's a good character for it since he will die anyway 

[Mirefox]

41 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Fundamentally disagree here - she's a woman who's chosen to carry the consequences of the Trolley Problem for 20 years, when one set of tracks holds the whole world.  She is the current de facto leader of the forces of light, and leaders don't win wars without making sacrifices. And She knows she will likely need to do worse in order to succeed before the end. That doesn't mean she doesn't care. Win now, grieve later.

If that’s the case, then it just demonstrates how shallow the writers are.  Moira one was a complex character in the books who was certainly a master manipulator but did not put her cause above the lives of the innocent.  The trolley problem is borderline pseudo-psychology as a defining character trait.

[Mirefox]

41 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

So...no Gaul, I guess?

Unless we are introduced in another way.  Replacing him with Avi leads to curious scenarios.  Would she return to the TR with Perrin?

[Agitel]

16 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

If that’s the case, then it just demonstrates how shallow the writers are.  Moira one was a complex character in the books who was certainly a master manipulator but did not put her cause above the lives of the innocent.  The trolley problem is borderline pseudo-psychology as a defining character trait.

 

As a book reader, I never took Moiraine's threats as hyperbole. I believed her gravely serious in that.

[DreadLord31]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

Unless we are introduced in another way.  Replacing him with Avi leads to curious scenarios.  Would she return to the TR with Perrin?

I was convinced we would not get Gaul because this is a “girl-power” adaptation; now, not so sure, simply because we didn’t get Bain or Chiad in this episode and we know they’ve been cast for this season. It would make sense, actually, if they’re not cutting Gaul to include him when those two are introduced. 

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, DreadLord31 said:

I was convinced we would not get Gaul because this is a “girl-power” adaptation; now, not so sure, simply because we didn’t get Bain or Chiad in this episode and we know they’ve been cast for this season. It would make sense, actually, if they’re not cutting Gaul to include him when those two are introduced.

I don't know that they'll introduce Gaul or Rhuarc this season, but It's entirely plausible that they'll be introduced next season when they become integral to the series plot next season and the foreseeable future.

[Mailman]

Another terrible episode.

 

The worst part the absolutely hilarious scene when the girls get dropped off to the Seachan.

 

Soldiers march away from Seachan take the girls from the horses then drop them at the side then march all the way back to the patrol. WTF. Why not keep the prisoners with you.

Damane fail to realize that she has removed the shields and freed the girls using the power.

Can't imagine Ishmael will be thrilled when he finds out that Liandrin released them.

Then what appears to be a pathetic chase scene.

Another hilarious palanquin.

 

Fight scene with Perrin and Avi was terrible so many quick cuts so dark. A real let down when the blood snow was one of the better components of the first season. Did appear at one point that the white cloaks could have just struck Perrin down but did not.

 

Season continues to lurch from poor to crap to dumpster fire.

 

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

6 hours ago, Agitel said:

 

As a book reader, I never took Moiraine's threats as hyperbole. I believed her gravely serious in that.

Indeed they could not be since she was sworn to "speak no word that is not true".  

 

As to the rest:

It might have been better to take the 4th horse with them - but dragging a horse at speed through the woods in the dark is not safe for the led horse or the rider leading it.  Moiraine is a expert horsewoman and would be able to balance the risks.  

 

She did her best to convince (without being able to compel) the ostler to flee without stopping to Tar Valon - Lanfear would have realised the bluff long before that and while she is short tempered and spiteful she would not be likely to hunt her down later.  She might also be aware that Lanfear is not likely to be an expert rider and would chase too fast, knackering her horse and leaving the ostler moving her weight over 3 according to their strength easily able to keep ahead.  At least this time the minor character doing something foolish out of sentiment is a woman (compared to the ferry owner in E2).

 

Spoiler

We need multiple instances of ruthless action for Rand to reach his ultimate view that carrying out risky actions out of compassion is necessary.

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

4 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I don't know that they'll introduce Gaul or Rhuarc this season, but It's entirely plausible that they'll be introduced next season when they become integral to the series plot next season and the foreseeable future.

Could be a cheap way to introduce the problems when an Aiel is caught between two competing Toh's - as may happen if Avi is summoned away to meet her Toh to her people.  If they introduce Gaul as taking on the Toh to Perrin the problem is solved and a lesson given to the viewer (although they may have to illustrate this in sections over 4-5 episodes taking over an hour of exposition😀).

[Chivalry]

On 9/15/2023 at 5:59 AM, nsmallw said:

Doesn

Doesn't the lore hold that you need to be familar with the area your in and the area you want to go in order to open a gateway. Lanfear hasn't been awoken long enough to know all the terrain, especially considering the breaking. I believe that's why. Someone else can correct me if i'm wrong. 

Have we seen any gateways yet? I really don't remember.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Chivalry

[MarcusM]

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

Another terrible episode.

 

The worst part the absolutely hilarious scene when the girls get dropped off to the Seachan.

 

Soldiers march away from Seachan take the girls from the horses then drop them at the side then march all the way back to the patrol. WTF. Why not keep the prisoners with you.

Damane fail to realize that she has removed the shields and freed the girls using the power.

Can't imagine Ishmael will be thrilled when he finds out that Liandrin released them.

Then what appears to be a pathetic chase scene.

Another hilarious palanquin.

 

Fight scene with Perrin and Avi was terrible so many quick cuts so dark. A real let down when the blood snow was one of the better components of the first season. Did appear at one point that the white cloaks could have just struck Perrin down but did not.

 

Season continues to lurch from poor to crap to dumpster fire.

 

 

I feel you exaggerate quite a bit. Sure, the fight odds was a bit too uneven. Not really realistic. And it was too dark. Must watch again on my OLED TV. I feel that this problem is quite common these days. Not just in WOT.

 

The capturing scene. The sul’dam should’ve reacted faster sure. But I think this was partly the due to conscious cinematic sequencing choices. And partly because the seanchan are overconfident.

 

I loved this Episode. The best this season so far.

[king of nowhere]

8 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Indeed they could not be since she was sworn to "speak no word that is not true".  

 

As to the rest:

It might have been better to take the 4th horse with them - but dragging a horse at speed through the woods in the dark is not safe for the led horse or the rider leading it.  Moiraine is a expert horsewoman and would be able to balance the risks.  

 

She did her best to convince (without being able to compel) the ostler to flee without stopping to Tar Valon - Lanfear would have realised the bluff long before that and while she is short tempered and spiteful she would not be likely to hunt her down later.  She might also be aware that Lanfear is not likely to be an expert rider and would chase too fast, knackering her horse and leaving the ostler moving her weight over 3 according to their strength easily able to keep ahead.  At least this time the minor character doing something foolish out of sentiment is a woman (compared to the ferry owner in E2).

indeed, moiraine has tried to minimize collateral damage in any case I can think of.

also, in the books rand distrusted her with no real reason, just because "aes sedai bad" and "two rivers stubborn", and that felt stupid. at least the accident with the ferry was intentionally meant to give rand better reasons for his mistrust, and this episode probably also has a similar function.

 

by the way, anyone suspecting moiraine's sister may be a darkfriend? after barthanes entered the show, what she said in the previous episode about "doing what was necessary" to restore her family name can be taken ominously