So I asked my spouse (non book reader) what she thought of the series so far and here is what she thought. Better than Witcher. Worse than GOT (9/10). And maybe on par with the Shadow and Bone. So a 7/10. VFX is ok. The pattern is not really needed. The age of legends doesn’t really add any value. What is missing is character building. It’s difficult to believe some parts of the story. She really likes Natasha and Fares. Among our heroes her favorites are Perrin and Nynaeve. They are likeable and feels authentic. She held a long speech about Egwene. She didn’t like at all that she killed Renna. Seemed out of character. The relationship building between Renna and Eg was not sufficiently explored. Renna wasn’t all evil and didn’t deserve to die. Maybe she somehow even could’ve helped Eg out of the collar? Anyhow, it wasn’t authentic character building that Eg. Killed Renna. Also, on Rand. How on earth was he able to use his magic so easily and kill all these men (Turok and Co). He was just moments before having huge troubles doing something. Seemed out of character and not properly explained. She liked the old Mat actor way more than the new. Liandrin was “great”. Moiraine she felt was too much stuck in the middle. Could she not be either even more of principles or even more likable and trustworthy? I thought her reflections quite interesting. Somewhat aligned, yet very different to my own as a book reader. Please please, please! Can we have you replace Rafe? Nah. We will see Tear at some point. Rand needs Callandor. But no, the prophesies of Tear falling to aiel will be skipped for sure. We will never see Be'lal. He was pretty useless after all.

Still trying to get my head around this Episode. The battles look cheesy and unreal to a large extent. Like a comic, rather than a real battle. I think it is due to some fashion to run things in slow-mo and at the same time make character say cheesy punch-lines. Also this way to battle burn a lot of quality time that could have spent elsewhere. And you've guys already said it. I agree. Here are the minus. Moi. Too much power at too much of a distance. Even if she still has her angreal and took the main ship by surprise. Avi. Very cheesy line. How would she instantly know he is their Car'a'Carn? Yeah I know there is the dragon... but their lore is different. The questions marks. Eg. Can't make up my mind here. I think she does a fantastic acting. I love she uses her own ingenious to get free. But she kills the sul'dam. And there are a lot of illogicalities with the double Adams. I love how she is protecting Rand. But there should be no way she should be able to hold that defensive shield up. At this time through the books she is likely at somewhere 30-50% of her full strength. And Ishy is somewhere between 2x - 4x stronger than her (at her full strength). And there is probably an angreal on his fingers. It makes good TV. Yeah. I so hoping that this is Ishy's long game, luring our heroes in believing they ar on par with the Forsaken. Ny. Great that they finally tuned down her ability to just save the day. But I would have liked her to heal both Rand and Elayne. I the books Elayne is crap at healing if I remember correctly. And why on earth would she not break that arrow first before pushing it through. That was just plain dumb. Rand. Good acting. But seriously. Staring in Ishy's eyes for half a minute before stabbing him through the heart. Nah, I don't buy it. And we are all left to wonder, why he didn't magically heal. I was looking forward to the sword fight, in which I did hope Lan would save Rand's sorry butt. But I can work with how they made Turok and his guards look like bugs not even worth bothering with. Heroes. Well, Uno was fun to see. But his comments was just cheesy. I did like the female whirlwind. As for the rest, nah. They should've made more of lore out of them. Especially Arthur and Birgitte. I wonder if we will get Birgittes Arc from the books also in the show? Mat. Some glimmering moments. But some cheesy too. Love the ashanderei. But the dagger turning into a dark saber? WTF. Loial. Can't you start doing something useful, besides giving cheesy speeches. Open the box of the horn dammit. No they have to ruin the box by ash'sabering it! (as it makes Mat look witty and looks good on TV, common!:-() And the plus. Ishy. All in all. Fantastic! Not sure about how I felt about the vampire-stone and dust, however. Lanfear. Best actress. Coolest character. Period. She definitely has my heart in the show. When I heard they would get Natasha to play her, I didn't know what to think. My first thoughts was, well she surely isn't beautiful enough. Now she looks bloody stunning in my eyes! Some awesome job they did wither. Moghedien. I LOVE this version of Moggy. I absolutely hated her inte the books. Now she plays with Lanfear. That's awesome TV. I tried to look into the X-Ray as I hoped this was T'A'R' rather than left in Flame, but I didn't see it on the computer. On the plus, here they picked a really beautiful actress. Moggy was nothing but ordinary. Horn. I actually cried when they blew it. This was a great moment. Lan. Finally gets to shine for a bit. Well. So what does this all give me? Entertaining yes. Is it WOT. Nah. Is it close enough? Well it's this I get to live with. I like it enough.

Aha, I like this idea. Better yet, I just now got confirmation from a very credible source that Lan is to become the permanent Karaetheon Warder of the White Tower libraries from now throughout the rest of the show. Apparently many viewers complained that all the prophesy was too obscurely delivered on screen and they realized they had to something significant. And obviously they got awesome feedback on the test concepts where Lan explored (... and here I quote my source) "his softer self" and "where he was to contribute more with reasoning, philosophy, literature". So they realized that they would want him "to deliver frequent of insights from the Age of Legends throughout each episode from season 3". As a result they are apparently seriously considering removing Herid Fel completely and maybe reducing the brown-ish part of Verin's role significantly in favor to make her all black-ish. So you see, they will make "a very modern completely non violent man out of him".

Not bad. That could happen.

Why on earth would anyone say such a thing?? I seriously had the dillusion that my future daughter would be given just that very name! As it turned out I never had a daughter, but three sons. One of the is called Theon. Ohh well, that’s another series I know. But it’s tangential at least.😉

Quadrupled down? What did I miss? Yes. Yes. Good thinking! I think the wild cards here are Ishy, Lanfear, Moi and Lan. The other plot lines should overall play out similar to the books. Yea yea yea, I know things are different with Uno, Aiel, Whitecloaks and more.... What is Ishy's end play here? Get Rand to turn as he sees his friends being tormented or turned to the shadow? I bet Egwene and Mat will be shown to Rand in desperate positions. Lanfear will want Rand to gain power and proclaim himself. She wouldn't want Rand to turn. So she will scheme to disrupt the show. The question is how? Probably only indirectly... maybe she will bring the white cloaks to the party? Moi and Lan just want to save the day I guess. How will they part with Rand and Lanfear? I think they will almost be too late for the party. The wonder girls will save the day as always. Maybe the Heroes of the horn will contribute a bit? Lan will cheer lead Moi as she does magic ninja tricks. Loial will not do much. NynEl will save Eg. The Far Dareis Mai will show all men they know nothing generally and of dancing particularly. Eg. will have some of the "replies" to Renna as suggested elsewhere here. We will have her swear she will not rest until the Seanchan is thrown back into the sea and every damane is uncollared. The Season will all end with 3 things. The dragon will proclaim himself. The team will finally board Spray. Ishy will free the rest of the Forsaken, realizing his first plan didn't go exactly as planned. Rand will not do anything important and everyone will still wonder until next Season, "what's up with this useless boy?". No we will not see a proper fight with Ishy and Rand. The proclamation will be done in some other way. Most likely scenario it has something to do with the horn. Maybe the dragon bannor will magically manifest itself in the sky as the horn sounds? Did we really get 4 different clues already to the actual battle taking place? Not just the proclamation itself? Ahh yes, the motivation: Turok wouldn't blow the horn as he would naturally want to gift it to the Empress to rise even higher in the blood, and maybe even be adopted by the royal family.

I think it looks exciting!:-)

I did just now thought furiously and vividly on the options of not killing her yet satisfying the claim “that a damane must die to remove the adam” (which I do not believe to be true btw) and came up with a way to do it without resurrection. You just have to find a way to invalidate / nullify the working of the adam. Ie make sure that the one power feature of the adam is not working. We do know how to do this. Enter a stedding with a bolt cutter and just clip it.

A costume designer creates costumes. I bet her assignment was to create a necklace that “could not be taken of unless the wearer is dead” However she chooses to communicate around this should be taken into the context of … costumes. As far as WOT lore is concerned the principles are written in the books. These are interpreted and may have been adjusted by the show runner to some extent. Heck even the writers cannot be trusted to follow the lore. And we know they will tweak and adjust as you go to ensure the story roughly follows the original story. To leave the necklace on Egwene will have such paramount ramifications that I am sure Rafe will ensure that it comes off in one way or another while Eg being alive on the other side of it. Given the criticism they received from resurrecting-ish Nyn, I would lean towards following the books on this one. That’s Occams Razor.

Someone YouTuber here, PLEASE PLEASE (!) do a YouTube-sketch on this!

Ahh yes, I thought it was strange of you to call him that. I don't have the books with me atm by I am pretty sure his name was Semen Valda.

Best analysis and explanation I have seen in quite some time. Things make so much more sense to me now... Excellent job! May I add... they apparently infused the other side of the show's feminism to build intelligence and soft capabilities in men (or maybe just warders?). Since it's mostly women that are capable to fight and destroy stuff. Men has to be equipped with more soft skills to balance things out... Hence we should never have expected Lan to be as the book made him. He will support Moi with needleworks, book reading and riddle solving in addition to making regular food errands. The sword will be mostly as a decoration and never really used. I bet Egeanin will replace Lans arc in _that_ final scene. Then again I hope not. I still hope they will successively tilt the power balance over the series just as in the books with Rand gaining power, claws, distrust and power corruption eventually climaxed as in the end of book 6 through to whatever book he learned that lesson... If we will see that general shift in the TV show, then there is still hope for our Lan too I guess?

Something in me sees the show and thinks fan-fiction about half the time. Yes this is, somehow the WOT universe, but nah it's not the story I wanted. Then I have to pinch myself really hard and try to think positively. At least we get an adaptation for TV. It's this or nothing! Ohh dear, I am truly trying to enjoy the ride... but it sure is very hard sometimes! /nods in agreement

I feel you exaggerate quite a bit. Sure, the fight odds was a bit too uneven. Not really realistic. And it was too dark. Must watch again on my OLED TV. I feel that this problem is quite common these days. Not just in WOT. The capturing scene. The sul’dam should’ve reacted faster sure. But I think this was partly the due to conscious cinematic sequencing choices. And partly because the seanchan are overconfident. I loved this Episode. The best this season so far.

Right. My mind bogs me apparently. So which is it? The figurine in E108…

Aha. Right I remember incorrectly I see. And in the light of S2 events I misunderstood some stuff… 39. E108 13:50. Moi says his power will increase a 100-fold. Btw, is that really a sa’angreal or is that really the “fat little man” angreal that book-Rand found in Rhuidan? Is Moi wrong about it being a sa’angreal? 33. Aha. Right, could be there is another way. But then, wouldn’t Loial know if there was? And again could have had an Aes Sedai open it for him. I guess we have to WAFO. 25. Yes you are right, I assumed that since Ishy was imprisoned there, then it would be Shayol Ghul. Still there seems little resemblance between the book Eye and Shayol Ghul. Which brings me back to the core point of the discussion I believe. The many many changes and the implications and risks with them. Doesn’t really matter if they are subjective or objective. They changed a lot of stuff and as fans here we obviously have different appetites for them. For some, red lines have clearly already passed. Others apparently just fully embrace the changes and welcome them. My own standpoint is somewhere in the middle I guess. I don’t really fancy the systemic changes done, but can accept leaving out or removing plot lines, Or even including additional sub stories and scenes where that makes sense. My biggest fear is still that they would change too much to alienate the fans while still not making it exciting with enough quality to attract the masses. Then the show would face the risk of being prematurely ended despite Amazon’s promises.

Maybe make this a thread of kits own. I want to discuss this too. Even made an analysis of my own on it in the Ep 5 thread, but it got completely displaced by all the arguing of the “following the lore” discussion.

Good thinking! How would that play out? Would we see Moggy in the infamous torture scene with that Aes Sedai (Brianna Mecandes???) and her warder? Will she torture Nyn? Or Liandrin even worse?

Ahh while we are at it: 24. No green man / Nym 25. TEOTW is merged with Shayol Ghul 26. Aginor and Balthamel not there 27. The Eye is not a distilled pure source of saidin. Which I opposed to most believe is hugely problematic as I believe that the Eye was especially made as an insulation towards the madness of the taint. 28. The seals are way bigger, holds a forsaken each and can't really be moved around. 29. You can be burned out when linked. 30. The defeat of the trolloc army wasn't done by Rand. 31. Egwene is apparently a very skilled healer. (which despite being a wisdom candidate is not her book-skillset) 32. Healing can be done en'masse from afar. 33. The ways requires the one power to be used. 34. There are 8 forsaken. 35. Shielding someone off "requires" 8 Aes Sedai (not 13 anymore). 37. The Horn's location was wrong. 38. The "tell" 39. The male little figurine with a sword is not an angreal but rather "the strongest sa'angreal ever made" 40. The Seanchan army looks more like monsters than insects 41. The nails 42. The damane / suldam way of working and appearances I am sure there is more... --- There is definitely a case for changing too many minor, small or medium sized things that as a whole it wont feel like Randland anymore. And some of the above are potentially large or even major changes. Will we see the use of the Choedan Kal?

Ep205: Lanfear: ..."because Moghedien is insane, Greandal is vain idiot and the boys couldn't execute a plan even if they were under compulsion". This statement gives us a clue that they will leave out several Forsaken. We also have the 8p star from Ep201, indicating there where 8 seals. One per Forsaken? I also vaguely remember someone saying somewhere that they were 8 Forsaken too. Cannot remember whom or in which episode or sequence however... maybe someone can enlighten me or correct my memory if false? And in Episode 105 there are the figurines on the table in front of Stepin. I've now rewatched that like 7 times, but I cannot get a perfect look at the table. There seems to be 8 figurines, but I could definately be wrong. We could try to figure out by their looks who is who... maybe someone did that already? From the quick looks of it I do believe they are from right to left: 1. Woman, rich bosom- maybe Lanfear or Greandal? I guess Greandal. 2. Unclear, looks like a monster in a fancy dress. Would guess a man more than a woman. Maybe Asmodean or Rahvin. I guess Rahvin 3. Demandred (we see a sword, trimmed beard), but could be Rahvin. I guess Demandred. 4. Woman, lurking in the shadows? Moghedien or maybe Lanfear. I guess Lanfear. 5. Ishamael (as this is pretty clear from Stepin) 6. Sammael (no doubt in my mind at least) 7. Skinnier woman - maybe Greandal or Mesaana. I guess Mesaana. 8. Smaller figurine, probably a woman. Is that a spider web? Could be Moghedien. I guess Moghedien. Anyways... they would logically remove the Forsaken that made the least impact in the books and either merge their properties with the other forsaken or remove their arcs completely. My bet, without even taking into account all the figurines above is that we won't see: 1. Aginor / Osan'gar / Dashiva (as they already cut out his natural entrance in the show) 2. Balthamel / Aran'gar / Halima (as they already cut out his natural entrance in the show) 3. Be'lal (he was pretty useless and his plot line can easily be merged with Sammael and Ishy) 4. Semirhage (which I believe they somehow merged with Lanfear in terms of "cruelty", and Ishy in terms of plot line). She wasn't useless, but maybe not too effective... 5. Asmodean, Rahvin or Mesaana. Since Logain will have a larger role in the TV-series probably as Rand's tutor I bet they leave out Asmodean. Both Rahvins and Mesaanas actions make too much of an impact in the books and leaving them out completely would leave us without some important fights and many many plot lines. The best objection I have with myself against these conclusions is Lanfears statement above. Mentioning only 2 other female Chosen besides herself as she would consider "competent" to be woken early on. What do you think?

I have to completely agree to this. Ep4 left me with a pretty bad taste in my mouth, but this episode made me really excited! The Lan/Ishy meet-up is really the golden moment yet of this Season. LOVED THAT! Generally, I'm actually starting to like how they are unfolding the temptation to turn to the Shadow in many of the arcs. While some, including me sometimes, here seems to believe that we see too many new character arcs with new unnecessary content, it's overall starting to make more and more sense to me. They are slowly winning me over.

Ahh, yes. Good questions indeed! Speaking of Balefire, makes me wonder if we will even see that? So we now got clues that each seal in this WOTverse where tailored for one Forsaken. And why would they be if there was Balefire around to simply kill them off? If I remember correctly from the books the Forsaken were sealed off in the DO prison simply because they were around when the bore was sealed off. Here we seem to have 8 tailored seals. One to trap each Forsaken. If there were more potent weapons like Balefire around why even bother with the entrapment solution? And if we won't see Balefire, then how would you kill an Original Chosen? Maybe a dagger can be made from the Avendesora tree to be plunged into the heart of the Chosen?

Thank you putting words to very much how I feel too! But to seriously stop watching? Nah, that won't happen as long as it has some WOT resemblance. I am mostly concerned that they would cancel the show prematurely, despite Amz promises, unless quality is more consistent and a bit higher. As of now it feels a touch n'go for that kind of decision.

Finally among likeminded here on DM yet again. This episode made me really worried, again for the first time after E.108. (which was a huge disappointment to me) Moi/Lan bond: Logically she is shielded and he still bonded: 1. since Lan's not really in agony and going berserk, he should still be bonded and the bond should be masked. 2. Did Moi almost channel when that fade came in an earlier Episode? May have been Verin? 3. While Moi seems to be missing the OP she is really capable and not the total crying mess she should've been had she been cut off from the source. 4. We know from the books that it's possible to make complex and tied off shields that would be next to impossible to break through. The other option (i.e. TV-show compression) - she is stilled and he unbounded 1. Moi's really cut off from the source as this event in reality replaces Leanne / Siuan stilling. 2. She will still push Lanfear through the 'finn dooorway. She doesn't really need the OP for that purpose anyways. 3. Balefire will be introduced by someone else. 4. She won't BF hellhounds, nor Be'lal. (which 5 Forsaken aren't we seeing? Asmo, Semirhage, Aginor and Demandred?) 5. Nyn will heal her eventually. 6. The entire Salidar plot line will be cut out / or at least minimized. My bet is on option 2. And they effectively and sadly destroyed part of the lore. Lanfear regenerating I think this is more of Vampire-ism than Zombie logic. Not an expert of Zoombies however, but I have seen my fair share of vampire-series and they are full of this stuff. IMHO these type of moves destroys the novelty of the Randland (in this case DO-LOTG) mechanisms and the WOT-series becomes just another fantasy/undead Hollywood-series. When they played this move I instantly shut my computer and screamed "Nooo, wtf *Å/&%€%". Honestly I hated it. Had to re-see the entire Episode and address it with logic rather than emotions... Here it goes: 1. They don't give a crap of how the channeling logic is set up, beyond the basics. This we know from S1. 2. They gave Nyn the ability to nova mass-heal from a distance. 3. They must now make the Forsaken more bad-ass. 4. So they level up and make them truly immortals with regeneration abilities. 5. It's super practical from a casting POV. 6. As audience we now truly understand the statement " you have no conception of the power they wield". 7. Giving the Forsaken this power is a much simpler and time efficient move to demonstrate their power by proving all sorts of channeling tricks they make in the books. Simple time compression logic. And how will Moi and Rand get away from an angry? surprised Lanfear? Well, logically. She could play dead. Or as her ultimate aim is still to continue seducing Rand, she could very well not commence the hunt and reappear later (in the waste perhaps?). This would conveniently push Moi away from Rand as he would still continue have his feelings for Selene and it's Moi's fault that she is dead... or she could be halted by Ishamael? Or she would need time to regain strength from regenerating. Or they would just fix it with a change of scenes and we will never know what happened. Any or all reasons would work... Bah, emotion beats logic every time. Back to lurking