WoT Season 2 Episode 4: Daughter of the Night

[SinisterDeath]

This is the topic for Season 2, Episode 4: Daughter of the Night 

Director: Sanaa Hamri

Writers:  Dave Hill / Rafe Judkins

 

This topic is for discussing Episode 4 only. You should expect to encounter Full Spoilers Up To Episode 4, and full book spoilers on this topic.

[VooDooNut]

WooHoo!

 

Notes

Lots of great moments to let the acting shine through in this episode

 

All those warders just being casually ripped xD

 

Min needed motivation in her arc, so I like what they are doing here

 

Moiraines dress lol. She obviously has fun with it, and it’s fun to watch. Very ridiculous. Reminds me of the blueberry girl in Willy Wonka (original)

 

The way Logaine instantly becomes assistive once Moiraine offers the knife

 

Ihvan and Lan was a really good scene

 

Alviarin/Liandrin scene has a weird vibe. I didn’t really like it. Maybe it’s that neither knows the other is Black?

 

I really like Elias’ scenes, his personality is very direct, but I’m worried the Perrin/wolf stuff might be a bit too CW

 

I think we’re seeing a lot of Rand/Moiraine from Shadow Rising in this and I like it

 

In the scene with Egwene, I appreciate how Nynaeve comes across as very wise but can still be blind-sided by other peoples equal dedication

 

“My daughter” 😞

 

Liandrins monologue after is very strong too

 

There were some weird cuts in this episode. At first I thought it was only used to show Ishamael and Lanfears compulsion(those were good uses, I especially liked the Min/Ishamael scene), but take a look at the Ihvan/Lan scene from “Of course not.” To “An Aes Sedai” and note the jumpy cuts. There’s one with Rand/Lanfear earlier in the episode when the shot rotates around the actors too quickly. It seems to break the cinematography rule about how many degrees to rotate in a shot to not disorient the audience. 

 

Lots of little tiny things weaved into the writing in this episode I’m sure will be referenced down the road. 

 

Rands scene after killing the Fade is heartbreaking. So much emotion in his face. Also, why are they sleeping on the ground outside of the cabin? Weird Lanfear stuff?

 

My initial reaction to zombie lanfear was negative, but I think it’ll add to her scariness being able to regenerate like that…hopefully

Edited September 9, 2023 by VooDooNut
spelling

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

1 hour ago, VooDooNut said:

Alviarin/Liandrin scene has a weird vibe. I didn’t really like it. Maybe it’s that neither knows the other is Black?

That was Lean (the keeper) and Liandrin.  Alviarin has yet to appear.

 

I like the change to the gift of immortality given to the forsaken - being literally unable to die or be killed is much stronger than just lack of aging and explains much better why they seek this status and seek to undermine each other in round about ways only (and why sealed away individually instead of killed in the AOL).   Also a good TV choice as it avoids the need for changing actors in a reincarnation.  

1 hour ago, VooDooNut said:

Min needed motivation in her arc, so I like what they are doing here

Looks like for both Min and Perrin Ishmael is seeking to prevent them from using their gift against his plans.

[DreadLord31]

I don’t know - if I try really hard not to compare & to pretend - this is just something else, another turning of the wheel, then it wasn’t bad Tv. It was actually mostly good. 
 

The episode has an inclusio - like I predicted we opened with the bloody woman scene from the trailer, but to bring that back at that end to reveal Selene as Lanfear - that was a nice touch. 
 

The acting, all around, was excellent. But Selene/Rand scenes in particular, I’m leaning forward on the edge of my seat. 

The CGI was all well done.
 

Perrin is finally “training” sort of, Matt & Min are still going somewhere (we don’t know where? Apparently Cairhein? Maybe?), Moiraine is looking for Rand and recruited Logain to be Asmodien.

 

The Tower is still the central; I really think it ought to have just been caught “The White Tower” and not the “Wheel of Time”. Liandrin, Nynaeve scene was excellent. Loved the Liandrin reveal. Egwene’s motivation/fear of letting people down.

 

BUT. 
What the bloody goatsherder’s mother are they doing with this Warder bond crap and Lan? And are you flaming kidding me… Lanfear can be stabbed through the heart and have her throat slit and then just regenerate?! 
Why are they so obsessed with the fake out death? I just… 

Need a moment… 

[DaddyFinn]

8 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Lanfear can be stabbed through the heart and have her throat slit and then just regenerate?! 
Why are they so obsessed with the fake out death? I just… 

Need a moment…

There's saa in her eyes before she's resurrected. Dark One is interfering? Balefire will sure come in handy

[Samt]

7 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

 

BUT. 
What the bloody goatsherder’s mother are they doing with this Warder bond crap and Lan? And are you flaming kidding me… Lanfear can be stabbed through the heart and have her throat slit and then just regenerate?! 
Why are they so obsessed with the fake out death? I just… 

Need a moment… 

I'm also coming to the conclusion that it's just not worth it anymore to worry about the changes from the book.  This isn't that story.  It's not useful to try to understand them in each other's context.  

 

Your two concerns quoted above are my exact questions.  

 

Every scene with the warders or Aes Sedai discussing the implications of the bond serves only the confuse me more.  And nobody really seems to be confused, just worred about Lan.  Is Lan still bonded to Moiraine and the bond is just inactive?  Do the characters themselves not know?  Is Lan's state presently distinguishable from the state that led to Stepin's suicide?  If Lan is effectively unbonded, what does it mean for Alanna to forcibly take his bond?  Would that be distinct from Alanna just forcibly bonding an unbonded person?  

 

And in regards to Lanfear regenerating?, a big point of the forsaken is that they are ultimately regular mortals in mortal bodies once you get past all the crazy things they can do with the one power.  But leaving the book lore aside, it also raises serious questions for the show.  We're going to need some serious explanations as to how shrugging off impalement and throat slitting is not universe breaking.  Can anyone do it?  What are the limits?  If you don't have good and consistent answers for these questions, you are going to undercut a lot of tension in the show.  I question whether the creators really learned anything from the problems that superhealing created, if they are just repeating the same thing.  

[Skipp]

4 minutes ago, Samt said:

I'm also coming to the conclusion that it's just not worth it anymore to worry about the changes from the book.  This isn't that story.  It's not useful to try to understand them in each other's context.  

 

Your two concerns quoted above are my exact questions.  

 

Every scene with the warders or Aes Sedai discussing the implications of the bond serves only the confuse me more.  And nobody really seems to be confused, just worred about Lan.  Is Lan still bonded to Moiraine and the bond is just inactive?  Do the characters themselves not know?  Is Lan's state presently distinguishable from the state that led to Stepin's suicide?  If Lan is effectively unbonded, what does it mean for Alanna to forcibly take his bond?  Would that be distinct from Alanna just forcibly bonding an unbonded person?  

 

And in regards to Lanfear regenerating?, a big point of the forsaken is that they are ultimately regular mortals in mortal bodies once you get past all the crazy things they can do with the one power.  But leaving the book lore aside, it also raises serious questions for the show.  We're going to need some serious explanations as to how shrugging off impalement and throat slitting is not universe breaking.  Can anyone do it?  What are the limits?  If you don't have good and consistent answers for these questions, you are going to undercut a lot of tension in the show.  I question whether the creators really learned anything from the problems that superhealing created, if they are just repeating the same thing.  

 

 

I was confused at first about some of Lan's conversations with Alanna and her warders and then it donned on me.  They don't know that Moiraine has been cut off from the source.  They believe that Moiraine released her bond to Lan.

 

Once I realized that the conversations made more sense.

 

 

As to Lanfear regenerating it also stood out to me as a very odd and abrupt change.  But after thinking it over night the Forsaken in the books also cannot be killed my normal means it just takes a couple of extra steps.  The Dark One won't let them die either way.  I also appreciated seeing the Saa flash over her eyes.

[Elder_Haman]

Perhaps the regenerative properties of the Forsaken are a change made to facilitate a different change: 

 

Balefire’s time-bending, reality undoing is going to be really hard to film. Perhaps instead, Balefire simply burns a soul from the pattern. So it will be the solve to the immortality piece. 

[DreadLord31]

Even in the books Balefire was dumb. It was like: “Never do this or you might wreck the world and destroy the fabric of reality/or even the wheel itself (which is exactly what Isha’mael wants to do).” 
And then they just do it, like A Lot. 
Pretty dumb. Kind of like a show that thinks we need + or - 1.5 fake out deaths per episode. 

But dang, Tv wise “I’m a monster too.” 
Ok… Zombie Lanfear. Ok… I see you, boo. 
 

Hope Moiraine can run like the wind, cause she’s shielded - so even in their freakish sub-WoT Tv world - how the heck is Moiraine gonna last another 5 min? Untrained Rand is gonna stop Zombiefear? Not buying it… 

 

I still need a moment. And a drink. 
Where’s Matt at? He would drink with me. Is he in this show? Still doing nothing? Ok. 
 

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by DreadLord31

[Chivalry]

Oof, that was not expected. Slow episode, but the ending packed a punch.

[VooDooNut]

40 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Perhaps the regenerative properties of the Forsaken are a change made to facilitate a different change: 

 

Balefire’s time-bending, reality undoing is going to be really hard to film. Perhaps instead, Balefire simply burns a soul from the pattern. So it will be the solve to the immortality piece. 

Very possibly, but I hope not. I really like the timey-wimey moments in the books when Balefire is used.

[Pandemonium]

Book fans are losing their minds.... I wasn't sure how I felt about the Lanfear death.  After thinking about it I'm ok with Forsaken being able to recover from death.  That's the dark one's wheelhouse right?

 

 Balefire  can't come soon enough.

 

I'm super confused about the timelines still.  Was Mins scene with Ishamael, and the girls encounter with Liandrin months before Rands visit to the Selene cabin?

 

 And I don't see how Moiraine honestly expects to outrun Lanfear.  This whole Cairhienen showdown is going to be very interesting.   Why do they need to make Matt feel like he is going to Cairhienen on his own free will, as opposed to just kidnapping him?

 

Speaking of Cairhienen, who is the Damodred son that is in line to be married into the throne?  Galad seems like he would be too young to be Anaveres son.

 

 

[EmreY]

I'm not sure what I'm watching, but I'm liking it. 🙂

[A Memory Of Why]

Liked this episode the best so far.

 

Perin learning his wolf side is fun, I'm glad they straight up said he's not a warewolf, was worried for a second. Nice to know his visions are wolf sending, that's cool. And dreaming is related somehow, not to mention... Hopper!!

 

Matt still jot doing much, on his was towards Rand for some.. sinister reason.? Based on episode 7s title I'm thinking they may just flicker there way to Falme 😃

 

Wonder girls are on there way, I'd have liked to see more training over cleaning though..

 

Moraine and her sister is interesting, I'm guess that's how they get to Barthaines party and is somehow related to the upcoming civil war.

 

Liking Rand an Selene, I feel this is better than the books and is far more disturbing. Interesting to watch her to see where the mask slips:

 

Selene: I like you young and not so experienced"

 

Rand: "you'd be surprised"

 

Selene: (quickly swallow that crazy)

 

Going to be fun to see how this plays out now the crazy is out of the bag.

 

It doesn't bother me she is able to mysteriously heal. This happens a couple of times in the books without explanation and at least they're showing via the Saa it's related to the True Power.

 

I think the bug question here is, did we see TP healing or resurrection?

 

P.s. did anyone notice in the cold openin where Ishy looks to thr skies, towards the top of the rock formation to the right theres a building slightly sticking out?

Edited September 9, 2023 by A Memory Of Why

[Skipp]

42 minutes ago, A Memory Of Why said:

 

P.s. did anyone notice in the cold openin where Ishy looks to thr skies, towards the top of the rock formation to the right theres a building slightly sticking out?

 

Very much noticed that!  I do appreciate the old world ruins that keep popping up

 

1 hour ago, Pandemonium said:

I'm super confused about the timelines still.  Was Mins scene with Ishamael, and the girls encounter with Liandrin months before Rands visit to the Selene cabin?

 

I think that the only scene that scene that was shown out of order was Ishy waking Lanfear.  We heard Bayle Domon say that Moondial shattered months previous and that is what the dark prophecy was written on.  I presume the Moondial is what Ishy shattered at the beginning of the episode.

 

But yeah the timelines might be a little off, what with all the traveling.

 

One final thing I appreciate is that Selene took Rand out to Kinslayers Dagger to re-enact the book scene of ambushing him with a creature to force him to channel.  I would have preferred seeing Rand dispatch one Fade with the sword before two more appear forcing him to channel.  But what can you do.

 

I have a feeling that his episode is the calm before the storm.  I think events are going to start ratcheting up.

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I have a feeling that his episode is the calm before the storm.  I think events are going to start ratcheting up.

We still have 

Spoiler

The aiel and whitecloaks to appear. Maybe next episode?

 

[A Memory Of Why]

21 minutes ago, Skipp said:

One final thing I appreciate is that Selene took Rand out to Kinslayers Dagger

 

I thought it was obvious she took him to Kinslayers Dagger to get some Kinslayers dagger 😂

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, A Memory Of Why said:

 

I thought it was obvious she took him to Kinslayers Dagger to get some Kinslayers dagger 😂

There are many who want to mount the Dragon

[Rhaze]

 First truly bad episode of the season. Got bored during the women's parts. Lan is a nightmare of epic proportions and at this point I just hope for a trolloc (not a fade or stronger since Lan doesnt deserve a good death) to come through and cut off his head and put an end to the misery. Morraine "killing" Lanfear and Morraine's sister cameo were the only good parts of the episode. Hating the MIn, the traitor, arc.

[Rhaze]

5 hours ago, Pandemonium said:

Book fans are losing their minds.... I wasn't sure how I felt about the Lanfear death.  After thinking about it I'm ok with Forsaken being able to recover from death.  That's the dark one's wheelhouse right?

 

 Balefire  can't come soon enough.

 

I'm super confused about the timelines still.  Was Mins scene with Ishamael, and the girls encounter with Liandrin months before Rands visit to the Selene cabin?

 

 And I don't see how Moiraine honestly expects to outrun Lanfear.  This whole Cairhienen showdown is going to be very interesting.   Why do they need to make Matt feel like he is going to Cairhienen on his own free will, as opposed to just kidnapping him?

 

Speaking of Cairhienen, who is the Damodred son that is in line to be married into the throne?  Galad seems like he would be too young to be Anaveres son.

 

 

 DId Lanfear recover? I could see where she died... went to "hell" and the Dark One revives her into her body. As long as the body is in tact they can return to that body. If it is destroyed in fire or equivelant, they will need a new body. Also there could be a time difference in hell, like you see in so many other fantasy.. She could have spent a year being punished by the dark one before allowing her to return to her body seconds later in the real world.

[king of nowhere]

Some good and some bad. I'm not passing judgment on lanfear recovery until we see where it goes, but her reveal was kinda underwhelming. Moiraine with her knife, good introduction.

Didn't like lan. His bond drama is not clear; worse, it undermines the stepin arc - that would have worked with moiraine dead, but at this moment it is just confusing.

And didn't like nynaeve leaving just like that. "I am an accepted, i can leave"? And for what, she spends months traveling with only a vague direction of where perrin might be? Especially disappointed in elayne; earlier episodes she was the coolheaded one, talking egwrne out of stupid decisions. In the books she came because an aes sedai authorized the trip; what's her plan now? Best case scenario she'll disappear for months, throwing andor in a political crysis. Which sort of happened in the books too, but she had better motivations.

 

Moiraine sister was great cahirien plotting. Perrin was great. Min was great

[DreadLord31]

19 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I'm not passing judgment on lanfear recovery until we see where it goes,

I bet you they hand-wave away the fact that there’s no chance Moiraine could get away against Zombiefear if she resurrects in about 10 sec. 
 

Im guessing next we’ll see Rand/Moiraine they’ll be “hiding” in Cairhein with Moiraine’s family, and they’ll be … just fine?? 

[Rhand]

Some good things and some really bad things.   

  

Liked the White Tower events, again, they're really nailing that.   

  

Happy to see Hopper and have Perrin getting more exposure as a wolfbrother.   

  

Really annoyed with how Lan is being handled and how much references we have to hear about Alanna sleeping with her warders. Also a bit put off by Alanna and the warders going through Lan's personal things where they found the prophecy.

  

Really annoyed with the lack of screentime for my boy Mat.   

  

The Rand v Selene interaction was going really well until she suddenly started channeling and revealing she was a Forsaken. Would have been much better to let the viewer know, through the prophecy and the scene with Ishy, but leave Rand in the dark (hehe) for a bit longer.   

  

The ending was terrible. Really, how often are we going to see characters appear behind someone else out of fricking nowhere and "killing" them. The doors were closed when Rand and Selene were inside, Moiraine had to open them and when they left in the end, they were closed again. So not only did Moiraine, silently, open those heavy wooden doors, she also closed them, silently. Then she snuck across the room in her heavy dress, silently, and she drew Rand's sword, silently. Terrible B-action movie material.   

  

This ain't even a book scene. They completely fabricated this out of thin air, to again show how "badass" Moiraine is and cucking Rand again. When are they finally gonna start showing some badass Rand moments.

[DigificWriter]

1 minute ago, Rhand said:

Happy to see Hopper

 

Hopper has been in the show since Episode 3 of Season 1.

[Rhand]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Hopper has been in the show since Episode 3 of Season 1.

 

Unfortunately I need wolves to share their name before I know who they are. But to be honest I was referring more to the interaction between them rather than just seing a wolf.