What are they doing to Canon?

[Tim the Bald]

I agree with the OP as far as "Canon," that being said I decided to just enjoy the TV series for its own value, using the characters poor Jordan created.  So let's see where it goes.  Most fans of the books have a love/hate relationship with them anyway;  perhaps the TV series will end up being better.

[Oggie221]

  On 9/1/2023 at 10:06 AM, TamSwordsman said:

I'm halfway through S2Ep3...and I'm disgusted...

 

This Rafe bloke is destroying books I deeply love.

 

There is simply no purpose to so many of his/the producers changes.

 

This is truly "inspired by" or "based on"...in the most loosely applicable sense.

 

They are literally taking themes from the books and creating their own story...a story that doesn't even remotely follow details and plot lines accurately.

 

I get that at times Jordan was verbose and that there must be some changes in any adaptation...but the things that are true to the books are occasional homage and by far in the minority. 

 

What do others think???

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This is how I look at it, this is a different turning of the wheel.  I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see the good guys lose this round.

 

That's the beauty of the Wheel of Time.  If season 2 ended with the Dark One winning and then things resetting and going another round, I would be ok with that.  I know a lot of people wouldn't.  But the wheel has turned out this story an infinite number of times, most of them failures.  Only 2 solutions are final.  One the Dark One destroying the wheel, and one of the Dark One being permanently destroyed.  So I am going to shut up and enjoy this series for what it is, a separate turning of the wheel.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Oggie221

[WoTwasThat]

While I appreciate the folks trying to stay positive about this - maybe some of you even mean it - at some point we gotta call this for what it is.

 

This is worse than Season 1. Most of these plot points aren’t even recognizable from the TGH or TDR. The writers are just making it all up.
 

We’re supposed to just be thrilled that there is a TV show called “The Wheel of Time” with the same character names but a totally different story?! Oh, but it’s ok because heh - this is a “new turning of the wheel”?

 

Who are the people who think this is a good adaptation of the books?

 

Who are the people who are happy to get this “new turning” instead of the story from the books?

 

I think my favorite additions so far are Perrin’s visions and Nyn’s super badass warder skillz. Rand’s working the third shift at Cairhien General Hospital LOL. 

 

And Moraine. Gah. Does anyone even think Mo will be making her exit in this story? Nah. They’re riding the Rosamund Pike train to the end.

 

I could go on and on but you all know what I mean. It’s just that some of you won’t admit it. 

 

  On 9/1/2023 at 5:57 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Yes. Stories have themes and tones, and they are generally keeping those same themes and tones in the show.

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LOL. Love this. 

 

  On 9/1/2023 at 1:09 PM, DojoToad said:

Personally, I lean more toward that Rafe is making unneeded changes.  Haven't watched S2 yet, but from S1 I liked some changes: Mat's family having Coplin/Congar type problems, Logain being introduced early, Moiraine using the inn to crush trollocs...

 

Others I can't get on board with: Ninja Nynaeve, untrained (or minimally trained) channelers pulling off the miraculous, Perrin's wife, Borderlanders being suspicious of Aes Sedai, etc...

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These are very, very, very small changes compared to the massive changes Rafe and His Merry Band are making. I could mention a few, ahem, bigger ones.

 

  On 9/1/2023 at 6:34 PM, Agitel said:

I haven't seen any of S2 yet, might start in a moment. But I'm going to harp on there being only 64 episodes (optimistically) to tell the whole story, which means conveying the same motifs and general arc outlines of the sprawling book story (in which a significant amount is told through character's internal thoughts) in a relatively very short run time. And this means recapitulating all of the feels, lore, and development into different scenes which make the same point even if entirely original, and sometimes points that were spread out across different books and scenes all need to be made within the same TV scene.

 

The writing decisions ultimately fall on Rafe, but there is a hard truth that this adaptation has to be planned as shorter than it would need to be to have very high fidelity to the books. That's just the reality of the situation, and a constraint Rafe needs to work within.

 

I'd love a more shot for shot version, but this is what we get at this time.

 

And just because what I wrote in my first paragraph is true, it doesn't of course mean the execution will be good. The actual execution is a whole different kettle of fish.

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This excuse rings a bit hollow considering the Rafester keeps squandering all his precious runtime just, you know, making everything up.

 

Each one of these seasons is the equivalent of 3-4 feature length movies. And they can’t faithfully adapt 1-2 books a season in that run? Think about that. (And no, nobody is seriously suggesting a faithful adaption of books 7-10 which would be, frankly, horrific.)

 

  On 9/1/2023 at 8:37 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Can we please not do the tired: "this is a bastardization of everything RJ stood for, he would be rolling in his grave!" "No! This show is the most faithful adaptation of anything ever!" "No, it's not because [my politics]" "Yes it is, because [MY politics]." thing anymore?

 

It is so. bleeding. tiresome.

 

Talk about the specific things you did and didn't like and why without resorting to all of the over-the-top language and chest-beating. We can have nuanced discussions. Really, we can. Just take a breath, stop catastrophizing everything, and try to talk about specifics.

 

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Respectfully, these sort of straw man responses are also a bit tiresome. Hopefully my critiques have been specific enough. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by WoTwasThat

[Elder_Haman]

  On 9/5/2023 at 1:03 AM, WoTwasThat said:

Who are the people who think this is a good adaptation of the books?

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Me!

 

  On 9/5/2023 at 1:03 AM, WoTwasThat said:

Who are the people who are happy to get this “new turning” instead of the story from the books?

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You mean “in addition to the story in the books,” right? The books still exist. 

 

  On 9/5/2023 at 1:21 AM, WoTwasThat said:

Respectfully, these sort of straw man responses are also a bit tiresome. Hopefully my critiques have been specific enough. 

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They have not. 

[WoTwasThat]

  On 9/2/2023 at 12:44 PM, Agitel said:

I just had a thought to put it in perspective about how Rafe needs to tell this story in a shorter run time than would be required for a high fidelity adaptation of the books.

 

Adapting WoT in 6-8 seasons is like adapting ASoIaF in 3-4 seasons. Imagine the amount of interpretation and adaptation that would be required to have made that work.

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No, it isn’t. Not once you take a meat cleaver to the series beyond Book 6, which is what should be done. But Books 1-6 were damned near magnificent and this is a sick joke by comparison.

 

The GOT Seasons 1-4 adaptions of the first four books were pretty darned good, and a masterpiece by comparison.

 

  On 9/5/2023 at 1:20 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Me!

 

You mean “in addition to the story in the books,” right? The books still exist. 

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Well, good thing you’re the moderator then. You can turn the lights out. 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 9/5/2023 at 1:27 AM, WoTwasThat said:

Well, good thing you’re the moderator then. You can turn the lights out. 

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I’ll do that. You’ll probably have a better experience over on Reddit. 

[Agitel]

  On 9/5/2023 at 1:18 AM, WoTwasThat said:

Each one of these seasons is the equivalent of 3-4 feature length movies. And they can’t faithfully adapt 1-2 books a season in that run? 

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One book a season is too slow, even for just 1-6. And you brought up a GOT comparison later. Do you think they could have adapted two books a season of ASoIaF in 10 episodes? Let alone 8?

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/5/2023 at 1:03 AM, WoTwasThat said:

While I appreciate the folks trying to stay positive about this - maybe some of you even mean it - at some point we gotta call this for what it is.

 

This is worse than Season 1. Most of these plot points aren’t even recognizable from the TGH or TDR. The writers are just making it all up.
 

We’re supposed to just be thrilled that there is a TV show called “The Wheel of Time” with the same character names but a totally different story?! Oh, but it’s ok because heh - this is a “new turning of the wheel”?

 

Who are the people who think this is a good adaptation of the books?

 

Who are the people who are happy to get this “new turning” instead of the story from the books?

 

I think my favorite additions so far are Perrin’s visions and Nyn’s super badass warder skillz. Rand’s working the third shift at Cairhien General Hospital LOL. 

 

And Moraine. Gah. Does anyone even think Mo will be making her exit in this story? Nah. They’re riding the Rosamund Pike train to the end.

 

I could go on and on but you all know what I mean. It’s just that some of you won’t admit it. 

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I think this is a good adaptation, in fact I think the storytelling method for season 2 so far is better then the great hunt, but then I have always thought that books 1,2 and part of book 3 are a fairly generic not special fantasy story that isn't paticularily different to hundreds of other stories. The real RJ story kicks in in book 4. 

But people focus on these tiny little things, like Nyn creeping up on Lan (Taken from the books), Perrin "Visions", taken from the book (Rand has the vision), but also probably the best way to show Perrin is different, he is seeing the world of dreams in his visions. 

Rand working to get to the one man in the world he knows can teach him to channel, makes far more sense then Rand in the books stumbling by chance on a forsaken who can teach him thanks to Lanfer. 

I think yes Morraine will make the exit, her story has to be constructed entirely from 2 sentences in TGH where she explains to Rand where she has been while all of that book was going on. They have to find a good reason to have her stay out of the 5 main characters lives for that period and have her own moment of self doubt, which she has in the books you just don't see it as clearly. This is WOT in more then just name, every character arc is on the exact same trajectory as it is in the books and the writers are doing something more imaginative then RJ did of repeating the same story trope across 3 books "Party run away from a thing or go chasing after a thing, they split up, some or all of them get led into a trap, they escape said trap through luck more then judgement, then they go chasing another thing, get drawn into a trap, over and over until Rand is holding the sword." There is a reason why we all get frustrated when by the end of book 3 we see the same characters getting caught out in a trap in the same way for a 3rd time. That would make awful boring TV. 

All the plot points are there and are lifted direct from the book, yes they have been "adapted", for TV, because they need to be for reasons that have been explained over and over and over again here, and yes you can disagree with some of the creative choices made, but saying this is not the WOT i any way I am sorry it makes it look like people who say that don't know the books at all properly, or are just trying to bait, because it clearly is. 

 

  On 9/5/2023 at 1:25 AM, WoTwasThat said:

No, it isn’t. Not once you take a meat cleaver to the series beyond Book 6, which is what should be done. But Books 1-6 were damned near magnificent and this is a sick joke by comparison.

 

The GOT Seasons 1-4 adaptions of the first four books were pretty darned good, and a masterpiece by comparison.

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Books 1, 2 and part of 3 are generic fantasy tropes that are repetitive and rehash the same story several times and would make for an awful TV show if filmed as written, for me the real story, the bit I keep going back to that makes the series stand out is Battle for Tear onwards, I don't see a "boring middle section" I love all the stuff that goes on with the kidnap, the politics for Andor, Matt and even the carnival. 

 

  On 9/5/2023 at 1:18 AM, WoTwasThat said:

This excuse rings a bit hollow considering the Rafester keeps squandering all his precious runtime just, you know, making everything up.

 

Each one of these seasons is the equivalent of 3-4 feature length movies. And they can’t faithfully adapt 1-2 books a season in that run? Think about that. (And no, nobody is seriously suggesting a faithful adaption of books 7-10 which would be, frankly, horrific.)

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Ok I did this long ago so will paraphrase here. 

Lord of the rings is a far smaller word count and requires 3 feature length movies, which at the time where long for cinema, and still had lots cut out and made massive changes to the lore and the story. 

Harry potter the movies cut out and change some significant details. 

WOT, is massive, I mean immense, but, ad this is really key, the most important stuff for the screen gets hardly any word count in the book. things that RJ explains in a few sentences or a short paragraph will need to be an entire episode all to themselves. You cannot make a page by page adaptation of one book across 8 episodes, let alone multiple. lets take something we know is coming, the battle for emonds field.

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In the book that whole sequence from Faile leaving to the battle ending takes lets say 8 pages or so, I don't have my copy to hand. The vast majority of those pages is taken up describing all the build up, the children around the maypole, the women stood in front of them, the two rivers men looking at Perrin, his doubts and fears all of it. 

Then the actual attack starts and, about 40 sentences or so later it is over, it takes about a minute if that to read the whole battle, you get key visuals, the trolloc attack, the breaking of the lines, perrin pulled from his horse, the Aiel fighting a last stand, Loial swinging an axe, each given the barest of a sentence as Perrin sees it all, and then, the women step forward and the reinforcements turn up and it is over. A minute of read time that on screen will need to be 30-40 mins, so tell me, how do you cut 30-40 mins of read time to compensate, and that is the case for every single set piece in the book. So the writers need to get creative and make sure the key story threads are told a different way. 

 

 

  On 9/5/2023 at 12:39 AM, Oggie221 said:

This is how I look at it, this is a different turning of the wheel.  I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see the good guys lose this round.

 

That's the beauty of the Wheel of Time.  If season 2 ended with the Dark One winning and then things resetting and going another round, I would be ok with that.  I know a lot of people wouldn't.  But the wheel has turned out this story an infinite number of times, most of them failures.  Only 2 solutions are final.  One the Dark One destroying the wheel, and one of the Dark One being permanently destroyed.  So I am going to shut up and enjoy this series for what it is, a separate turning of the wheel.

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For me this is not what a different turning of the wheel means in WOT, the journey from LTT to Rand is not a new turning, it is the same turning, LTT starts the battle with the dark one, Rand ends it, that turning of the wheel however started 10,000 years before LTT, and will end maybe 20,000 years after Rand and then the next turning will happen and everything will be different. Humanity might all live under the sea, or in airships, they may never discover the one power, or there might be a zombie apocolypse or any other thing you can imagine. There won't necessarily be a "Dragon" there wont be a LTT, the darkone will be released somehow but it will be different, or the same or maybe the dark one won't be released at all in that turning. We can't envision what the next turning looks like but it will not be a copy paste of the books, the saviour of humankind might be a women, a talking dog or a group of children. The "breaking" might be nuclear apocalypse, or an asteroid mining gone wrong meaning it hits the earth, or maybe the Dinosaurs come back in that turning. 

[notpropaganda73]

  On 9/5/2023 at 1:03 AM, WoTwasThat said:

I could go on and on but you all know what I mean. It’s just that some of you won’t admit it. 

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it's nice to see the arrogance of some of those who hate the show still runs strong. Honestly, who are you to tell me what I like or don't like, what I will or won't admit? Hate the show, have your reasons for it, whatever - don't tell others that they're deluded or in denial or whatever other justification you need to come up with other than a simple "it turns out there are other people who love the books like me but find the show is doing an ok job, or even a good job actually" 

Edited September 5, 2023 by notpropaganda73

[king of nowhere]

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While I appreciate the folks trying to stay positive about this - maybe some of you even mean it - at some point we gotta call this for what it is.

 

Who are the people who think this is a good adaptation of the books?

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me.

I'm not "trying to stay positive", I genuinely like the show. Like many others.

 

  On 9/5/2023 at 1:03 AM, WoTwasThat said:

This is worse than Season 1. Most of these plot points aren’t even recognizable from the TGH or TDR. The writers are just making it all up.

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Rand is trying to run away from who he is, but his ta'veren keeps getting in the way. "Selene" found him and is seducing him. And he's about to get dragged into cahiriening politics by accident.

Perrin is chasing the horn of valere all the way to the westernmost coast, where he stumbles on the seanchan invasion

Mat was kept a "guest" in the tower against his will for reasons related to the dagger. he's about to make his big escape.

egwene and nynaeve went to the white tower; nynaeve struggles with the block and her attitude.

moiraine went to study with two retired sisters to understand what happens next.

 

my assessment is that all the main plots are there and clearly recognizable; the details are different, but the main plot is there.

also, do notice how this season is actually going closer to the books than the first one. especially in those plots that strayed the most from book canon.

mat was missing since episode 6, while in the books he was with rand and perrin. here they brought him to the white tower, where he's on track to take the role he had in the third book.
rand was wandering the world alone, instead of being in fal dara with the others. here they brought him to cahirien, with "selene", so that he can take the role he had in the second book.

perrin is getting his elyas plot, which he skipped in season 1

egwene and nynaeve kept solving problems with their untrained channeling, now that capacity has been brought down and they need training after all.

seems to me as they are moving closer to the books, at least as close as they could after season 1.

[Agitel]

Moiraine is also still visiting Adeleas and Vandene Verin like she does near the beginning of TGH, doing her research and studying.

 

We're going to the end of TGH, with probably some TDR type development for characters (Rand on an almost solo journey).

 

It's not translated 1:1 to screen, very much not so, but the general thrust of the arcs are still present.

 

That said, I'm curious as to when the Stone of Tear and Callandor fit into the show arc. They could surprise me, but I'm having trouble seeing it fit into this season, and I'm unsure of exactly what content they'll cover in the next season, unless they squeeze in Tear quite early... I imagine much of S3 being Book 4.

 

If much of 3 will be cut, and the BA hunt from books 3 and 4 are merged together, they could probably fast track the Stone of Tear and Rhuidean climaxes in Rand's arc in a single season, if they still want to keep Callandor at all this early in the series. Then S4 could open up to more politics and build to DW. Oy, my brain hurts. It could be done...

Edited September 5, 2023 by Agitel

[Jake Sykwalker]

  On 9/5/2023 at 1:03 AM, WoTwasThat said:

While I appreciate the folks trying to stay positive about this - maybe some of you even mean it - at some point we gotta call this for what it is.

 

 

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I actually look at it slightly differently.  Amazon is making 8 one hour episodes per season.

 

However this turns into many more hours of enjoyment of watching videos of people critically deconstructing the episodes and how bad the writing is and how poor they follow the lore.  So instead of only 8 one hour episodes I can get nearly unlimited entertainment!  

 

There is a very interesting one that is new called The Sword and the Pen Reflections. It is from an editor that is reading the books for the first time and watching the show at the same time.  She is completely new to TWOT and judges it on what she sees.  It is a very interesting take.  

 

I'm happy for the people who enjoy this  show, but I'm not one of them.

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/5/2023 at 12:18 PM, Agitel said:

Moiraine is also still visiting Adeleas and Vandene Verin like she does near the beginning of TGH, doing her research and studying.

 

We're going to the end of TGH, with probably some TDR type development for characters (Rand on an almost solo journey).

 

It's not translated 1:1 to screen, very much not so, but the general thrust of the arcs are still present.

 

That said, I'm curious as to when the Stone of Tear and Callandor fit into the show arc. They could surprise me, but I'm having trouble seeing it fit into this season, and I'm unsure of exactly what content they'll cover in the next season, unless they squeeze in Tear quite early... I imagine much of S3 being Book 4.

 

If much of 3 will be cut, and the BA hunt from books 3 and 4 are merged together, they could probably fast track the Stone of Tear and Rhuidean climaxes in Rand's arc in a single season, if they still want to keep Callandor at all this early in the series. Then S4 could open up to more politics and build to DW. Oy, my brain hurts. It could be done...

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I don't think we will get tear this season, when Rafe said season 2 would cover books 2 and 3 I thought of it as a linear adaptation but I think he means he is lifting things that happen in book 3 and moving them toseason 2, which makes sense. Boks 2 and 3 are predicated on the same synopsis. Half the party travelling across Randland for something, while the other half get tricked/trapped and end up at the same end location. So I think we get more of the Aiel stuff from book 3 here in season 2, we get Rand using his powers more and being scared of himself in season 2 which tracks with book 3 and is possible now that he isnt running across randland hunting the horn. 

I think we get more of the book 3 Moraine storyline with some bits lifted from her journey across randland and I think we set Tear up in a different way so by the end of season 2 Rand has accepted he is the Dragon and then he heads to Tear early in season 3 to prove it by claiming the sword. We can then get the fall of tear and Rand heading to the Aiel ready for season 4. 

[Agitel]

If they want to take more time to breathe, I'm all for it, but my thought process on how they're doing it is Rhuidean/Emond's Field in S3 and Cairhien/Dumai's Wells in S4.

 

I did not expect a linear adaptation of TGH and TDR in S2. I expected either the locations got merged together and both happened at once, or they did not have the characters reunite at the end, with some characters handling Falme and having Rand go to Tear for Callandor (and even the sky battle) in the same season as back to back/simultaneously climaxes. But so far that doesn't seem to be their direction.

 

I think they could cut quite a bit in S3 and potentially do both Tear and Rhuidean (linearly) in a single season. But maybe Rafe is taking a slower pace than that. I do think repeated confrontations with Ishy, with the split apart and come together again of the first three books won't be repeated, so I could see that whole arc to Tear being done differently and more expediently.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Agitel

[nsmallw]

Reality check folks. 

 

Your dream of a direct translation of the books to screen was never going to happen!

 

It would take a dozen seasons at least to do correctly and there isn't a tv company anywhere that is going to fund that.

 

So put on your "big boy pants", grow up and stop whining.

 

Just enjoy the books for what they mean to you and let the rest of us enjoy the tv show for what it means to us. 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by nsmallw
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[DaddyFinn]

  On 9/5/2023 at 1:30 PM, Jake Sykwalker said:

However this turns into many more hours of enjoyment of watching videos of people critically deconstructing the episodes and how bad the writing is and how poor they follow the lore.  So instead of only 8 one hour episodes I can get nearly unlimited entertainment!  

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I watch/listen to non-reader reactions. It's awesome how much they like the show.

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/5/2023 at 2:20 PM, nsmallw said:

Reality check folks. 

 

Your dream of a direct translation of the books to screen was never going to happen!

 

It would take a dozen seasons at least to do correctly and there isn't a tv company anywhere that is going to fund that.

 

So put on your "big boy pants", grow up and stop whining.

 

Just enjoy the books for what they mean to you and let the rest of us enjoy the tv show for what it means to us. 

 

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Most of us have accepted that but are enjoying discussing and predicting where the changes might occur and what they might mean, I don't think the story has deviated that much from the books, yes little details are different but the main themes and arcs are all there currently. 

I think it is possible to critically discuss the changes and what they might mean for the future while still enjoying the show for what it is, I think it is also valid to call out where things grate a little the fact is that season 2 is an improvement and having gone back and rewatched season 1 on the back of seeing 2 it is very grating how poor the production levels are, how bad the trollocs and other effects look and how clunky alot of the dialogue is, season 2 shows if you solve those fundamentals of just making a good tv show then the changes to the story are far less impactful. 

[KakitaOCU]

One note I keep seeing over and over again.  I don't see detailed critiques.   I see vague sweeps of the whole thing is bad or they ruined this or that character. 

 

If you want a real discussion you have to provide specifics, otherwise it's just complaint.

 

To Wotwasthat, if you're still here, what exactly didn't you like?  Which changes specifically bothered you?  Knowing that might let us actually talk.

[Skipp]

  On 9/5/2023 at 3:00 PM, DaddyFinn said:

I watch/listen to non-reader reactions. It's awesome how much they like the show.

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Agreed!

 

Just saw EverydayNegro's reation to

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Uno's Death scene.

And that is why the did that scene.  Their reaction to it tells me they sold it properly.

[Samt]

  On 9/5/2023 at 5:52 PM, KakitaOCU said:

One note I keep seeing over and over again.  I don't see detailed critiques.   I see vague sweeps of the whole thing is bad or they ruined this or that character. 

 

If you want a real discussion you have to provide specifics, otherwise it's just complaint.

 

To Wotwasthat, if you're still here, what exactly didn't you like?  Which changes specifically bothered you?  Knowing that might let us actually talk.

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Considering the scope of the changes, it's not unreasonable to complain broadly (episode 3 barely has any scenes that are even from the books).  But if you want specifics (and trying to leave out critics of the obvious political bent of the show's creators)

 

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1.  The accepted test is no longer an actual test since it isn't clear what else Nynaeve can do besides run through the portal.

2.  The magic system not only seems to have changed significantly, but also just seems to be internally inconsistent.  How does the warder bond work?  If Moiraine is stilled, how can she still pass it on to Alanna?  Who can see weaves?  Who can see when another person has the ability to channel?  

3.  Logain is in a random asylum in Cairhien when the Aes Sedai should be concerned about him.

4.  Min is nearly 40 years old.

5.  The dagger is so not deadly that people just short of shrug it off. 

6.  Rand has no idea of how to use his sword (or sheath it).

7.  Thom and Moiraine haven't met.

8.  Circles are no longer safe.

Others, but this is a good start.

 

[LTL]

  On 9/5/2023 at 8:05 PM, Samt said:

Considering the scope of the changes, it's not unreasonable to complain broadly (episode 3 barely has any scenes that are even from the books).  But if you want specifics (and trying to leave out critics of the obvious political bent of the show's creators)

 

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1.  The accepted test is no longer an actual test since it isn't clear what else Nynaeve can do besides run through the portal.

2.  The magic system not only seems to have changed significantly, but also just seems to be internally inconsistent.  How does the warder bond work?  If Moiraine is stilled, how can she still pass it on to Alanna?  Who can see weaves?  Who can see when another person has the ability to channel?  

3.  Logain is in a random asylum in Cairhien when the Aes Sedai should be concerned about him.

4.  Min is nearly 40 years old.

5.  The dagger is so not deadly that people just short of shrug it off. 

6.  Rand has no idea of how to use his sword (or sheath it).

7.  Thom and Moiraine haven't met.

8.  Circles are no longer safe.

Others, but this is a good start.

 

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4,6,7 and 8 are just differences that may or may not turn out to be bad depending on how things go from here. Yes they are different to the source material but I'm happy to just wait and see how they work in the show before considering getting annoyed about them. If you're annoyed there are changes then yes of course, you're right there are lots of changes. Discussion on that is surely settled by now. It seems too early to determine if these particular changes make for a bad show though.

 

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1. A counter-argument would be that the portal appears in the first test when Nynaeve could still have helped her parents. By the time she went through it was probably too late but she'd kind of already made the decision by waiting. Second was fine. Third test do we think that deep down she really believed her child was coming through with her? She had just channelled to kill some trollocs so she could have stayed to protect her daughter but she chose to go through and desperately tried to bring her daughter with her knowing that it was almost certainly in vain. Your view of it is not invalid either but I thought it was great TV so I'm more than happy to go with the generous interpretation. 

2. Agree at this point, I hope things get clarified and become more consistent. 

3. It could be argued that he's no longer a threat and shipping him off to an asylum isn't too wild an idea. In the books he is kept at the tower but do we think all the men who have been gentled are kept at the tower? I'm happy enough with this change if it makes things work out for getting people to the right places later in the season, it seems quite a minor thing to get annoyed about.

5. This looks poorly done so far. Maybe they will address it with some later flashback or explanation of how people were healed but I suspect it was just part of the mess of the last episode of season 1 and it'll be swept under the rug as if it never happened.

 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 9/5/2023 at 8:05 PM, Samt said:

The accepted test is no longer an actual test since it isn't clear what else Nynaeve can do besides run through the portal.

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We don't know much about the test at this point. Perhaps we will learn more. Perhaps not. But it doesn't 'break' anything that we aren't given all of the details about how the test works.

 

  On 9/5/2023 at 8:05 PM, Samt said:

If Moiraine is stilled, how can she still pass it on to Alanna?  Who can see weaves?  Who can see when another person has the ability to channel?  

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Excellent questions. I think the answer to the first question is - she isn't stilled and we know that because she can still feel the existence of the bond and was able to see Verin's weave. 

 

  On 9/5/2023 at 8:05 PM, Samt said:

Logain is in a random asylum in Cairhien when the Aes Sedai should be concerned about him.

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Why would they be concerned about another male channeler who has been gentled? He does not threaten them.

 

  On 9/5/2023 at 8:05 PM, Samt said:

Min is nearly 40 years old.

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I get why this casting bothers some people. But it doesn't mean the show is "trash" (or whatever perjoratives are bandied about).

 

  On 9/5/2023 at 8:05 PM, Samt said:

The dagger is so not deadly that people just short of shrug it off. 

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I need to know more here. I will say that the unexplained recoveries from the end of S1 are a bit of a sore point. 

 

  On 9/5/2023 at 8:05 PM, Samt said:

Rand has no idea of how to use his sword (or sheath it).

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Yet.

 

  On 9/5/2023 at 8:05 PM, Samt said:

Thom and Moiraine haven't met.

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That we know of.

 

  On 9/5/2023 at 8:05 PM, Samt said:

Circles are no longer safe.

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Huh?

[Samt]

  On 9/5/2023 at 9:25 PM, Elder_Haman said:

 

 

Huh?

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Meaning channelers in a circle can be burnt out by the person who is in control of the circle.  

[king of nowhere]

  On 9/5/2023 at 8:05 PM, Samt said:

The accepted test is no longer an actual test since it isn't clear what else Nynaeve can do besides run through the portal.

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  On 9/5/2023 at 9:25 PM, Elder_Haman said:

We don't know much about the test at this point.

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wait, am I the only one who think the test is perfectly clear? ok, they don't spell it straight out, but the point is: she must get into each of the three arches and come back. if she can't go in, she fails and she is put out of the tower. if she can't get out, she fails, but that's the least of her problems.

What's unclear about it all?

[Storeebooq]

  On 9/5/2023 at 8:05 PM, Samt said:

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1.  The accepted test is no longer an actual test since it isn't clear what else Nynaeve can do besides run through the portal.

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Nyn clearly had to choose whether to continue helping those she cared about, or go through the portal. I admit it was faster than I expected, but like a lot of elements in this series, we are having to accept they do not have the same length of time that the books had for these kinds of scenes. 

 

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2.  The magic system not only seems to have changed significantly, but also just seems to be internally inconsistent.  How does the warder bond work?  If Moiraine is stilled, how can she still pass it on to Alanna?  Who can see weaves?  Who can see when another person has the ability to channel?  

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They've definitely changed some things, but we have yet to get the full story. I agree that I think there are some blunders in the shielding/stilling?/bond + conversations. They are either due to the fault of the characters, or sloppy writing. They are taking their time explaining the magic system though. Something they had more space to do earlier on in the books. 

 

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3.  Logain is in a random asylum in Cairhien when the Aes Sedai should be concerned about him.

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I chalk this up to the Aes Sedai do not want to waste their Accepted's time on babysitting gentled men in this universe, so cart them off to an  asylum. To me, fits a little more in line with how people can be awful to folks in reality. It's also convenient for the plot, so meh. 

 

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4.  Min is nearly 40 years old.

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The ageism I keep seeing in regards to Min is getting old and is horrid. So what? Min was older than Rand already in the series, and we haven't had her in-series age shared. The actress herself is not 40, so I really wish folks would drop this critique. Y'all know that even so, 40 isn't old right? geeze

 

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5.  The dagger is so not deadly that people just short of shrug it off. 

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I am curious if this is one of those blunders they admitted to in Season 1. It was hinted that a number of things, especially the last episode, were mistakenly shown to us, or overlooked in development. The danger of the dagger may have been one. 

 

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6.  Rand has no idea of how to use his sword (or sheath it).

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I think this is a miss on their part. There's been little to know training given to Rand on the sword use yet, so I have no idea how they will have him face Turak, let alone become a blade master. Will they make it take longer and be more realistic? Even in the book series I thought his ability to fight so well so early on was kind of un-believable....but chalked it up to "he's the bloody hero" 

 

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7.  Thom and Moiraine haven't met.

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I for one don't give a flip if they ever met. I think RJ mishandled their whole "relationship" in the books anyways. 

 

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8.  Circles are no longer safe.

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I'm finding myself conflicted on this. Were they really in a circle? Or did she do something else with them? I think the added element of danger is interesting...but this could also be like I mentioned before, a mistake on the writers part for building drama in the last Season 1 episode. Especially with the related Nyn near-death and miraculous healing scene. 

 

 

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Edited September 5, 2023 by Storeebooq