Where will S2 take the WoT

[SilentRoamer]

15 hours ago, Skipp said:

 

A good reason for the change was to ensure the ensemble status of the cast and of course because It was about them all.

 

Moiraine was covering her bases when she decided to bring the Sa'angreal. If the Dragon turned out to be a woman she could be trained/guided/circled and just generally helped.  If the Dragon turned out to be man they would need to rely on brute force.  Which might even be a neat reference to the differences between channeling Saidar and Saidin.

 

Yes exactly - there were hints that the Dragon could be a woman which was also believed by some of the characters - contrary to the way RJ wrote the story. 

[SilentRoamer]

15 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Strong in the old blood could be 10% of the population.  Or even 5%.  To have Manetheran's blood basically made some Emond's Fielders super heroes (in a fantasy way).  To have even a small percentage of folks with the ability to manifest 'lost' or unusual abilities would be a mother lode for the Aes Sedai to study, harness, or whatever.  Still lots of room for 'normals'.

 

Plus  - do we know the diversity of Manetheran's population?  I imagine it was huge and very diverse before the trollocs wiped them out

 

If the blood of the Manatheren were so diverse, we would be talking about culture and not bloodlines. 

 

The Aiel are racially distinct - that is pretty obvious. I am not sure why the rest of the people would not also be racially distinct. 

 

I just want people to understand this is not a criticism of racial diversity - which is to be applauded, it is a criticism of shoehorning modern dynamics and sensibilities into a Fantasy show - in a way that isn't authentic to the Fantasy world. 

 

This is seen with a number of changes - I think David Starkey said "It is not for the Classics to amend themselves for us, but for us to amend ourselves for the Classics" and I think that stands with WoT. 

 

However I understand people feel differently and I don't want to hijack this discussion by labouring the point so I will leave it there and won't comment on this particular point anymore. 

[Cipher]

On 3/22/2023 at 9:41 AM, SinisterDeath said:

Anyone that understands biology and genetics, knows that if they were as genetically isolated as you make them out to be, they would make the people in the Hills have eyes look normal.

Ridiculous.  I can go to major cities in other countries that have less diversity than Rafe's 2 Rivers.

Like Tokyo or Wuhan.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Cipher

[SinisterDeath]

6 minutes ago, Cipher said:

Ridiculous.  I can go to major cities in other countries that have less diversity than Rafe's 2 Rivers.

Like Tokyo or Wuhan.

Do I really need to explain the difference between Tokyo, and the Two Rivers?

[Cipher]

28 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Do I really need to explain the difference between Tokyo, and the Two Rivers?

You act like isolated, rural towns being as diverse as Los Angeles is normal.  So it might be interesting to read your take on Tokyo vs Two Rivers.

 

Take a small town in Mexico off the beaten path.  It will most likely be one single racial group, but still have plenty of genetic diversity within that homogenized group.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Cipher

[Elder_Haman]

12 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

Yes exactly - there were hints that the Dragon could be a woman which was also believed by some of the characters - contrary to the way RJ wrote the story. 

Okay, but now that we know without a doubt that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, in what way does this small change impact the story moving forward?

 

We can argue about whether the "who is the Dragon" mystery element of S1 was a good choice or not (I personally feel like they fumbled it), but it's not world-breaking by any means.

[SinisterDeath]

6 hours ago, Cipher said:

You act like isolated, rural towns being as diverse as Los Angeles is normal.  So it might be interesting to read your take on Tokyo vs Two Rivers.

 

Take a small town in Mexico off the beaten path.  It will most likely be one single racial group, but still have plenty of genetic diversity within that homogenized group.

How many genetically distinct family lines exist within the city of Tokyo, with a population of 13m?

 

What's the chances, that two people, picked at random, are first cousins?

 

If the two rivers is as genetically isolated as some of you are proposing, picking any two people, they would probably be first cousins, 3rd cousins, aunt and brother.

 

How many people? How many families can possibly live in the two rivers? 

 

There should be people moving in, and moving out all the time, and if anything, it's slowed down over the last couple of generations, to coincide with the relative lack of war, over the last dozen generations.

 

 

Tokyo and Two Rivers exist in completely different realities, where human migration patterns from our reality has no bearing on WoT. 

 

 

 

3000 some years ago in the Wheel of Time, the entire population of the two rivers fled as their queen blew up the trolloc invaders.

 

The Trolloc Wars didn't end for another 150 years, where the two rivers was largely abandoned, save a few stubborn sheep herders.

 

That area eventually repopulated, and some definitely returned with families from completely different lineages, some who stayed within their own, and all of which, goes without saying that we do not know what the racial makeup of the population of Manetheren was. Nothing in the source materials states they were a  "homogenous" country like Japan before Manethere fell. Nothing states that everyone in the two rivers all look racially identical.

 

That entire logic, is based on one line of text, concerning the lack of tax collectors. 

 

The main characteristic of a person from the two rivers, is dark of eye and hair.

In that regard, the show succeeded.

 

In the Wheel of Time "African", "Indigenous Australian", "Caucasian" don't exist. There exist "races" of people in the books, that "generally" don't exist in our reality.

 

And to finally beat this stupid dead horse into paste; even if we entertain the idea that no one has ever moved into the two rivers, in it's 3000 years of history, and they maintained a high enough population over the course of those 3000 years to not become imbred troglodytes; It's entirely possible there could exist pocket populations throughout the two rivers, that managed to self segregated along "racial lines" to allow for what y'all are calling a cosmopolitan city like LA (b.s.), but in reality, it allows some genetic differences between local Farmers, Townies, and the boondock Farmers...

 

Remember, hundreds of people throughout the two rivers, and gathered in Edmonds Field for a flipping festival.. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

28 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

t's entirely possible there could exist pocket populations throughout the two rivers, that managed to self segregated along "racial lines"

Indeed that is heavily implied in the text - certain extended families such as the Coplin/Congar group have distinct looks. 

[Cipher]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

How many genetically distinct family lines exist within the city of Tokyo, with a population of 13m?

 

What's the chances, that two people, picked at random, are first cousins?

 

If the two rivers is as genetically isolated as some of you are proposing, picking any two people, they would probably be first cousins, 3rd cousins, aunt and brother.

 

How many people? How many families can possibly live in the two rivers? 

 

There should be people moving in, and moving out all the time, and if anything, it's slowed down over the last couple of generations, to coincide with the relative lack of war, over the last dozen generations.

 

 

Tokyo and Two Rivers exist in completely different realities, where human migration patterns from our reality has no bearing on WoT. 

 

 

 

3000 some years ago in the Wheel of Time, the entire population of the two rivers fled as their queen blew up the trolloc invaders.

 

The Trolloc Wars didn't end for another 150 years, where the two rivers was largely abandoned, save a few stubborn sheep herders.

 

That area eventually repopulated, and some definitely returned with families from completely different lineages, some who stayed within their own, and all of which, goes without saying that we do not know what the racial makeup of the population of Manetheren was. Nothing in the source materials states they were a  "homogenous" country like Japan before Manethere fell. Nothing states that everyone in the two rivers all look racially identical.

 

That entire logic, is based on one line of text, concerning the lack of tax collectors. 

 

The main characteristic of a person from the two rivers, is dark of eye and hair.

In that regard, the show succeeded.

 

In the Wheel of Time "African", "Indigenous Australian", "Caucasian" don't exist. There exist "races" of people in the books, that "generally" don't exist in our reality.

 

And to finally beat this stupid dead horse into paste; even if we entertain the idea that no one has ever moved into the two rivers, in it's 3000 years of history, and they maintained a high enough population over the course of those 3000 years to not become imbred troglodytes; It's entirely possible there could exist pocket populations throughout the two rivers, that managed to self segregated along "racial lines" to allow for what y'all are calling a cosmopolitan city like LA (b.s.), but in reality, it allows some genetic differences between local Farmers, Townies, and the boondock Farmers...

 

Remember, hundreds of people throughout the two rivers, and gathered in Edmonds Field for a flipping festival.. 

Almost every small isolated community in our world is made up racially homogenized groups. Those small communities of the same race of people are not troglodites or genetically inferior in the least.  I can go to small towns in my state where almost all the people are caucasian and nothing is wrong with them.  Same with a small town of mostly Mexicans anywhere they might live. Or any other peoples.

 

You don't have to defend the casting choices of Rafe and crew.  I am fine with the cast, but unrealistic things in shows can break MY immersion in the show.  

 

Take the bridge falling scene in the first Hobbit film. Stupidly unrealistic.  Same with a 9 month pregnant woman dispatching 3 trained soldiers.

 

The teaser in other thread doesn't seem to follow TGH from what I can tell.  I just hope S2 is good and makes me care.

[SilentRoamer]

11 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Okay, but now that we know without a doubt that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, in what way does this small change impact the story moving forward?

 

We can argue about whether the "who is the Dragon" mystery element of S1 was a good choice or not (I personally feel like they fumbled it), but it's not world-breaking by any means.

 

I mean should I only care about the show moving forward and not what has come before?

The problem for me is that it isn't authentic to the books, Moraine has been searching for the Dragon for 20 years at this point - she was never even in doubt that it was a man. 

It has huge implications (in my opinion) for one of the key dynamics that RJ uses as a central theme to the story - opposite but complimentary forces: The Light/The Dark, Order/Chaos, Saidin/Saidar. Theres a reason that the male side is tainted and why men embrace the source differently to women. 

As someone who never read the books a friend of mine didn't even take from the show that men and women channel a different source, for which we needed a short sentence: "I could no more teach you how to channel than a bird could teach a fish to fly". 

For me, all of the little changes, which might not mean much individually (although this change is larger) end up causing death by a thousand cuts, each change drifts the material further from the source. 

 

As I said, I just treat this as Rafes version of the Wheel of Time, because I don't feel like it is Jordans or mine. 

[SinisterDeath]

6 hours ago, Cipher said:

Almost every small isolated community in our world is made up racially homogenized groups. Those small communities of the same race of people are not troglodites or genetically inferior in the least.  I can go to small towns in my state where almost all the people are caucasian and nothing is wrong with them.  Same with a small town of mostly Mexicans anywhere they might live. Or any other peoples.

Our world, is not the world of the wheel of time.

 

We do not exist, in a reality that went from a population of 7.8 Billion people, living with technology and travelling the world, with "cosmopolitan cities", where we faced major disaster and our technological level fell back to the 14th century. 

 

The isolation you are talking about, is a genetic isolation of more than a thousand years.

Those small isolated communities, those small towns, those cities? They were already "genetically homogenized" when they were founded.

 

Example: Minnesota has small town communities that are over 95% white. Those same small towns, were 100% white a 150 years ago when they were founded. Those Germans, Swedes, Norwegians, Pollocks, and Fins, those characteristics are still present in the population. Those languages, are even still present, though far less then they were 30 years ago, and 30 years before that, where you could still find towns speaking German.

 

The founding of regions and small communities in the Wheel of Time, are completely different then what happened in our reality. It's apples to oranges.

 

  

7 hours ago, Cipher said:

You don't have to defend the casting choices of Rafe and crew.  I am fine with the cast, but unrealistic things in shows can break MY immersion in the show.  

And that's fine if the casting choices break your immersion with the show. 
All I'm trying to give you, is valid reasons why what you saw in the show, could exist beyond what you imagined the characters to look like.

 

I have the advantage, that I don't see the characters I read about. So I'm not stuck with the baggage of disliking any casting choice because it doesn't fit my mental image of them... because I do not have a mental image of the cast.

 

  

7 hours ago, Cipher said:

Take the bridge falling scene in the first Hobbit film. Stupidly unrealistic.  Same with a 9 month pregnant woman dispatching 3 trained soldiers.

See, those were all fine with me.
You should try watching "La Brea" on peacock. If you've ever watched any survival shows, that one will have you yelling at the screen at how dumb the people are, and how the writing in the show reeks of lack of research. 

 

 

 

  

3 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

The problem for me is that it isn't authentic to the books, Moraine has been searching for the Dragon for 20 years at this point - she was never even in doubt that it was a man. 

Maybe, that's the first problem is you are expecting it to be a 1:1 adaptation, when it was never going to be a 1:1?

The addition of the "is it a man or a woman" plotline is new to the tv series, as is the steppin arc, and obviously the last episode.

 

  

3 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

It has huge implications (in my opinion) for one of the key dynamics that RJ uses as a central theme to the story - opposite but complimentary forces: The Light/The Dark, Order/Chaos, Saidin/Saidar. Theres a reason that the male side is tainted and why men embrace the source differently to women. 

Yet, Rand a male was still ultimately the dragon. His reveal destroyed all hope that a Woman might save them in the end of times, rather than a Man who might destroy them all in the end of times.

 

  

3 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

As someone who never read the books a friend of mine didn't even take from the show that men and women channel a different source, for which we needed a short sentence: "I could no more teach you how to channel than a bird could teach a fish to fly". 

I will give you this. The show by itself did a piss poor job of explaining the magic system.

We got hints during the last two episodes that the magic sources are different, when we see Rand's POV of seeing what he's doing, and no one else can see what he's doing. The animated Shorts do explain a little bit about the two halves, but even then most people don't even know they exist because Amazon really botched access to the Shorts. (Select TV's could view it, or only from your computers' web browser!)

 

  

3 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

For me, all of the little changes, which might not mean much individually (although this change is larger) end up causing death by a thousand cuts, each change drifts the material further from the source. 

 

As I said, I just treat this as Rafes version of the Wheel of Time, because I don't feel like it is Jordans or mine. 

That's one way to view it for sure. 

I think of it as another turning, where the overarching events are similar, but the names of the people and places have changed.

 

Considering Jordan wished the adaptation of his books would be as good as the "Merlin" TV Show, I think he'd be proud of this one. For now.

[Skipp]

I am off the belief that the show didn't explain much about the One power or the differences between the two halves because it is not important for season 1 of the show.

 

BUT I fully expect season 2 of the show to begin exploring these differences as we see Egwene and the rest start training in the tower, hopefully split with Rand trying practice blindly.

 

I could be very wrong but it makes logical sense to my brain to do it that way.

[RextheDog]

just watched a rewatch of the series over the last few nights....

 

anyone think maybe Perrin is attracted to Rand;

 

1. challenges Rand to treat Eggy better which at first glance is some kind of hint that he likes Eggy....but...what if he were upset and Rands aloofness, based on his own feelings

2. in that scene he clearly states that Laila was 'the only women i ever loved'

3. later in same episode he confirms with Eggy that he loves Rand.... its the same episode which got me thinking, it could be bad writing, but he commits his love for Rand and denies his love for Eggy in two very close scenes. so it could be he is refering to something greater than a platonic love interest

 

my original thought would be it would ruin the story a bit, but on reflection, if its done right, and his love for Faile is chanelled into his love for Rand, and it means one less character with one less side story (the recapture of Faile and the whole horn stuff at thge last book, it really could work if done with a sensitive nod to the original character 

 

as in Perrin doesnt really need to change his character ARC significantly, we know he is driven by love and loyalty to one specific person....

Edited May 22, 2023 by RextheDog

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, RextheDog said:

just watched a rewatch of the series over the last few nights....

 

anyone think maybe Perrin is attracted to Rand;

 

1. challenges Rand to treat Eggy better which at first glance is some kind of hint that he likes Eggy....but...what if he were upset and Rands aloofness, based on his own feelings

2. in that scene he clearly states that Laila was 'the only women i ever loved'

3. later in same episode he confirms with Eggy that he loves Rand.... its the same episode which got me thinking, it could be bad writing, but he commits his love for Rand and denies his love for Eggy in two very close scenes. so it could be he is refering to something greater than a platonic love interest

 

my original thought would be it would ruin the story a bit, but on reflection, if its done right, and his love for Faile is chanelled into his love for Rand, and it means one less character with one less side story (the recapture of Faile and the whole horn stuff at thge last book, it really could work if done with a sensitive nod to the original character 

 

as in Perrin doesnt really need to change his character ARC significantly, we know he is driven by love and loyalty to one specific person....

Can’t say I picked up on it in the half season I watched. That would be a twist…

[Mailman]

20 hours ago, RextheDog said:

just watched a rewatch of the series over the last few nights....

 

anyone think maybe Perrin is attracted to Rand;

 

1. challenges Rand to treat Eggy better which at first glance is some kind of hint that he likes Eggy....but...what if he were upset and Rands aloofness, based on his own feelings

2. in that scene he clearly states that Laila was 'the only women i ever loved'

3. later in same episode he confirms with Eggy that he loves Rand.... its the same episode which got me thinking, it could be bad writing, but he commits his love for Rand and denies his love for Eggy in two very close scenes. so it could be he is refering to something greater than a platonic love interest

 

my original thought would be it would ruin the story a bit, but on reflection, if its done right, and his love for Faile is chanelled into his love for Rand, and it means one less character with one less side story (the recapture of Faile and the whole horn stuff at thge last book, it really could work if done with a sensitive nod to the original character 

 

as in Perrin doesnt really need to change his character ARC significantly, we know he is driven by love and loyalty to one specific person....

Its a possibility in eps 7 they link Perrin and Layla engagement to the day that Rand and Egwene get together, with Nynaeve complaining about them fighting over Egwene but then Perrin states that he never loved another woman than his wife. Would be a small step for Perrin having hid his feelings for Rand behind talking to Nynave about Egwene instead.

 

I would say its 50/50 for me that this is the path they are going to follow based on the first season.

[Skipp]

23 hours ago, RextheDog said:

just watched a rewatch of the series over the last few nights....

 

anyone think maybe Perrin is attracted to Rand;

 

1. challenges Rand to treat Eggy better which at first glance is some kind of hint that he likes Eggy....but...what if he were upset and Rands aloofness, based on his own feelings

2. in that scene he clearly states that Laila was 'the only women i ever loved'

3. later in same episode he confirms with Eggy that he loves Rand.... its the same episode which got me thinking, it could be bad writing, but he commits his love for Rand and denies his love for Eggy in two very close scenes. so it could be he is refering to something greater than a platonic love interest

 

my original thought would be it would ruin the story a bit, but on reflection, if its done right, and his love for Faile is chanelled into his love for Rand, and it means one less character with one less side story (the recapture of Faile and the whole horn stuff at thge last book, it really could work if done with a sensitive nod to the original character 

 

as in Perrin doesnt really need to change his character ARC significantly, we know he is driven by love and loyalty to one specific person....

This was my original theory, which would have made the arguement in episode 7(in my opinion) a little clever.  Having Perrin be bi wouldn't really affect the story going forward.

 

But someone on these forms pointed it out to me that during the Machin Shin scene Perrin hears "You killed your wife because you loved another woman".

 

But as we often do with these books I just made it my own head cannon.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

That line of reasoning does not make sense to me in the world of WOT (show).  Yes in our world (and hopefully mostly in the past now) gay people have entered into heterosexual marriages due to societal expectations but WOT (in the show) appears to be effectively clear of the type of social baggage that could lead to this.  I could believe it in the two rivers of the books which does appear to have significant levels of prudery and effectively arranged marriage but the show shows open acceptance of personal choice (e.g. Rand's response to Dena in the tavern - to me he is surprised by her interpretation of their relationship but not offended or revolted by her suggestion he and Mat are a couple or surprised at the existence / her open acceptance of same sex relationships).

[Samt]

Take two characters not romantically connected at all in the books and ship them together.  That's literally the stereotypical plot of bad fan fiction.  

[DreadLord31]

On 3/23/2023 at 3:53 AM, SilentRoamer said:

Yes exactly - there were hints that the Dragon could be a woman which was also believed by some of the characters - contrary to the way RJ wrote the story.

 

Hopefully S2 decides to have a meta-question that is true to the books/fans. That S1's main question was: "who is the Dragon?" In how they wrote, how they promoted, everything... Was really disappointing in my opinion. 

 

But... What should be the main question for S2? Perhaps, "why is the Dragon?" 😉

[Wassup]

12 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

Hopefully S2 decides to have a meta-question that is true to the books/fans. That S1's main question was: "who is the Dragon?" In how they wrote, how they promoted, everything... Was really disappointing in my opinion. 

 

But... What should be the main question for S2? Perhaps, "why is the Dragon?" 😉

It looks like it will be closer to “Where is the Dragon?”  You have to keep the questions in order. 👍🙃

[Samt]

3 minutes ago, Wassup said:

It looks like it will be closer to “Where is the Dragon?”  You have to keep the questions in order. 👍🙃

Then shouldn’t it be, “What is the dragon?”

[DreadLord31]

5 hours ago, Samt said:

Then shouldn’t it be, “What is the dragon?”

 

That's S3 😆

[DaddyFinn]

 

Just so you all know

[DreadLord31]

Well, then perhaps the question is: Who is Dragon's Father? 

 

And we find out at the end ...

It's Siuan. 

 

And she cuts off Rand's hand as he cries out, "It's not true... It can't be ... It's not true!" 

 

That's about the way the writing has gone so far. But with any luck, thanks to the strike ... Amazon will fire the whole lot & let one of us write it! 

 

"One of us. One of us..." 

 

We've been forewarned... Loins are girded!

Edited May 30, 2023 by DreadLord31

[Mailman]

16 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

 

Just so you all know

I don't share her view that everything is going to be okay. 

 

Season 1 was poor especially from a writing POV and near unrecognizable from the source material.

Now you tell us that the changes are going to be even greater in season 2. Will need to be a remarkable improvement in the writing quality to save the show.