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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

SilentRoamer

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    Lord of the Morning, Prince of the Dawn

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  1. I mean should I only care about the show moving forward and not what has come before? The problem for me is that it isn't authentic to the books, Moraine has been searching for the Dragon for 20 years at this point - she was never even in doubt that it was a man. It has huge implications (in my opinion) for one of the key dynamics that RJ uses as a central theme to the story - opposite but complimentary forces: The Light/The Dark, Order/Chaos, Saidin/Saidar. Theres a reason that the male side is tainted and why men embrace the source differently to women. As someone who never read the books a friend of mine didn't even take from the show that men and women channel a different source, for which we needed a short sentence: "I could no more teach you how to channel than a bird could teach a fish to fly". For me, all of the little changes, which might not mean much individually (although this change is larger) end up causing death by a thousand cuts, each change drifts the material further from the source. As I said, I just treat this as Rafes version of the Wheel of Time, because I don't feel like it is Jordans or mine.
  2. If the blood of the Manatheren were so diverse, we would be talking about culture and not bloodlines. The Aiel are racially distinct - that is pretty obvious. I am not sure why the rest of the people would not also be racially distinct. I just want people to understand this is not a criticism of racial diversity - which is to be applauded, it is a criticism of shoehorning modern dynamics and sensibilities into a Fantasy show - in a way that isn't authentic to the Fantasy world. This is seen with a number of changes - I think David Starkey said "It is not for the Classics to amend themselves for us, but for us to amend ourselves for the Classics" and I think that stands with WoT. However I understand people feel differently and I don't want to hijack this discussion by labouring the point so I will leave it there and won't comment on this particular point anymore.
  3. Yes exactly - there were hints that the Dragon could be a woman which was also believed by some of the characters - contrary to the way RJ wrote the story.
  4. RJ doesn't. But he does have Rand being a standout from everyone else in the village, because Rand is a clear outlier to the otherwise homogeneity of the EF. It's pretty implicit in the text. I don't want to keep debating this point because we aren't going to agree but I appreciate your perspective.
  5. Weird how the "Old blood of manatheren" runs strong in the Emonds Fielders - but they're also racially diverse? I'm not claiming a completely isolated community, I am saying that their relative isolation, mixed with their mistrust of outsiders and the stubborn streak (which runs in their blood) leads them to be a naturally isolated and racially homogenous peoples.
  6. At no point in any of the books, doe any of the characters think the Dragon reborn could be a man. You can do mental gymnastics about us not having access to all of the prophecies and a lack of information etc. but that particular plot point was added, without any good reason and made absolutely no sense. Why would Moraine bring a male 'angreal? Why would the prophecies be all about a man? Why would the items in the prophecies (such as Callandor) channel Saidin? It seems obvious to me that RJ never intended the gender of the Dragin to be in question - this is modern day politics making its way into Fantasy. Regards to the Two Rivers being genetically isolated - I'm not doubting there were people who moved to the TR and became a part of their people. However, geographically they are at a bit of a dead end, they are so isolated that they consider Tairen Ferry people to be from another planet. It's not explicitly stated - because RJ didnt go into racial characteristics, but it seems obvious for anyone with a basic understanding of biology and genetics. I guess we have to agree to disagree on this one but if they don't improve the direction of the show it will ge tcanned - and honestly I don't want that to happen. I want the show to be a success and inspire a generation of new WoT readers. I live in hope.
  7. Or to paraphrase that: "all the prophecies RJ wrote about". As someone who enjoys RatM I am not surprised they are supportive of BLM or other movements with a large support base on the Left of politics. It has no bearing on my enjoyment of their music. Yes - diversity and equity RUBBISH. Modern concepts thrown into the mix to appease certain sensibilities. Another example - the relationship between Moraine and Siuan. Definitely has roots in the text, but the idea that Moraine and Suian would be carrying on and risking the mission that the world rests on - to insert some modern relationships, is ridiculous and runs counter to what we know about their characters. I find it most likely that Avi, Elayne or Min will end up in a sexual relationship. Yes RJ did create a world of many cultures, which is why making a community isolated for thousands of years racially diverse is stupid - the world and its peoples have a tonne of racial, cultural, linguistic and moral differences. There is diversity in the Wheel of Time without having to shoehorn in modernity. We did not need to reflect modernity in the Two Rivers is my larger point - because RJ already built a large, rich and diverse world. At this point I am resigned to this being a different turning of the wheel, because that's the only leeway I can give Rafe. So you may view my opinion as crappy - your making objective claims for a subjective opinion, as much as you may think my opinion is crappy, I can look at yours in the same way. Viewing figures in the end and whether this gets canned will be the objective measure.
  8. Yes but all of the prophecies that were about the dragon - across all cultures, frame his as male, because he has to be male for the whole Dragon Reborn plot to make any sense at all. Why would a woman risk breaking the world? Women can already channel and have a power base. The whole idea behind the Dragon channeling is that Saidin is tainted - not Saidar. I like Rage Against the Machine but I literally have no idea what you are talking about. So no i'm not "one of those guys" - whatever broader political point you were trying to score. A person with an opinion based on what I see. Just like you.
  9. Ok - so are the showrunners going to disregard the Karetheon Cycle along with all of the other nations prophecies? How does the Dragon potentially being a woman and a channeler of Saidar even makes any sense whatsoever in RJ's story? You can handwave away plenty of my other points but this one is literally ridiculous. It was just an attempt to modernise the show and insert diversity and equity rubbish into a fantasy show about a MAN whose soul is reborn and who is destined to die and either break or remake the world. I don't know why people defend this point so passionately - RJ NEVER intended for anyone to believe the Dragon could be a woman and could channel Saidar, it literally works against the Binary themes RJ was so fond of. I'm going to give the show one last chance in S2 - but honestly they have to work hard to get this show back on track imo. Otherwise its just another beloved thing ruined by people who never loved it to begin with.
  10. So there is a section (I will find it and post it when I get home) in the Great Hunt where Rand hears a voice call him "al' Thor". I know we hear Lews Therin more later in the books as Rands psyche begins to integrate the memories and personality of Lews Therin but to me this is the first example I have seen of Lews Therin talking to Rand - Rand of course just sees this as an intrusive thought but the words are written in italics and seem to come from elsewhere. Ill post the full text later. Does anyone else think that the Lews Therin Voice comes much earlier than it first seems in the series?
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