How different is too different?

[king of nowhere]

is it just me seeing what i want to see, or is the show coming closer to the books? the rhuidean episode is taken very closely from the books, and the whole first half of the season bears a lot more similarity to the fourth book than the other season.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/21/2025 at 4:49 PM, king of nowhere said:

is it just me seeing what i want to see, or is the show coming closer to the books? the rhuidean episode is taken very closely from the books, and the whole first half of the season bears a lot more similarity to the fourth book than the other season.

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I think you’re seeing things accurately. 

[Mailman]

  On 3/21/2025 at 4:49 PM, king of nowhere said:

is it just me seeing what i want to see, or is the show coming closer to the books? the rhuidean episode is taken very closely from the books, and the whole first half of the season bears a lot more similarity to the fourth book than the other season.

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I dont think the whole season falls into this category. However most of episode 4 does and it could be a tipping point to correct the show.

 

Episode 4 is currently at 9.5/10 on IMDB nearly a full point better than all other episodes this season. It is being praised from everyone here. My hope is that someone at the studio is taking notes on this and they change the direction to follow the books like this episode has done.

 

This season is already made but the future could be bright.

 

9.5\10 on IMDB is just about the highest rank I have seen for anything.

Edited March 22 by Mailman

[books of Robert Jordan]

  Quote

9.5\10 on IMDB

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IMDB is a joke (see IMDb Top 250 Movies and so on), and it's very sad that even this episode (which is getting so many praises) is missing what Robert Jordan wrote in those chapters in TSR entirely. But hey, they got 3-4 very little things right, so let's celebrate!

 

Edited March 22 by books of Robert Jordan

[Turin Turambar]

  On 3/22/2025 at 8:18 AM, Mailman said:

I dont think the whole season falls into this category. However most of episode 4 does and it could be a tipping point to correct the show.

 

Episode 4 is currently at 9.5/10 on IMDB nearly a full point better than all other episodes this season. It is being praised from everyone here. My hope is that someone at the studio is taking notes on this and they change the direction to follow the books like this episode has done.

 

This season is already made but the future could be bright.

 

9.5\10 on IMDB is just about the highest rank I have seen for anything.

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I've read and or saw ( maybe LezbiNerdy) about how Rafe said they specifically wanted to give an entire episode to the columns and rings. This required many other things to be rearranged,  cut, shortened to accommodate. She also expressed a desire to have one more scene in the columns (the water sharing) but after going through the entire episode couldn't find a valid thing to remove. There is only so much time, money etc... We aren't going  to get word for word of the books.  It's just not feasible. Some of it would be boring on film as well. 

 

One thing out of the episode that I wanted to mention was the great job the actress playing Avi did in the scene where she sees Rand with the dragons on his arms. I think she conveyed some of what she would be uniquely feeling after her trip through the rings( even though we don't see it ).

[king of nowhere]

  On 3/22/2025 at 8:18 AM, Mailman said:

My hope is that someone at the studio is taking notes on this and they change the direction to follow the books like this episode has done.

 

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Will be almost impossibile. We are approachimg the slog, and we have 5 seasons left for 10 books. The writers will have to cut more plots. And then they will have to invent new plots to give the main characters something to do and convey the same major plot points.

It won't be possibile to follow the books closely. At best, they will be able to keep the occasional pivotal scene, like they did with rhuidean

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/22/2025 at 12:10 PM, king of nowhere said:

Will be almost impossibile. We are approachimg the slog, and we have 5 seasons left for 10 books. The writers will have to cut more plots. And then they will have to invent new plots to give the main characters something to do and convey the same major plot points.

It won't be possibile to follow the books closely. At best, they will be able to keep the occasional pivotal scene, like they did with rhuidean

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I mean, just cutting Faile's kidnapping, or reducing it to 2 episodes removes like 60% of the slog. lol
Then when you get to the cleansing, they can do the whole "From everyone's POV" in a single episode, if they even want to... and even then.. That could be done throughout the season depending on how the timeline of that season works out.

[king of nowhere]

  On 3/23/2025 at 8:04 PM, SinisterDeath said:

I mean, just cutting Faile's kidnapping, or reducing it to 2 episodes removes like 60% of the slog. lol
Then when you get to the cleansing, they can do the whole "From everyone's POV" in a single episode, if they even want to... and even then.. That could be done throughout the season depending on how the timeline of that season works out.

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Faile kidnapping can and must be shortened, but it was 6-8 chapters in most books.

Nothing big happened in book 10, but all those plots were advanced somewhat.

Still, all those plots will need to be shortened 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/23/2025 at 8:46 PM, king of nowhere said:

Faile kidnapping can and must be shortened, but it was 6-8 chapters in most books.

Nothing big happened in book 10, but all those plots were advanced somewhat.

Still, all those plots will need to be shortened 

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6-8 chapters? Was that really all the chapters devoted to it?

 

'cause it started in Book 8, and ended in what, book 11? 

And when dealing with her Kidnapping, we're talking about more than just her POV, we're talking about Perrin's obsession with finding her, his "Decline" into violence as he starts to choose the Axe over the Hammer... And then you have the Berelain shenanigans. 

 

But yeah, we don't need 2-3 seasons of all that happening on screen. At most 4 episodes.

[king of nowhere]

  On 3/24/2025 at 1:25 PM, SinisterDeath said:

6-8 chapters? Was that really all the chapters devoted to it?

 

'cause it started in Book 8, and ended in what, book 11? 

And when dealing with her Kidnapping, we're talking about more than just her POV, we're talking about Perrin's obsession with finding her, his "Decline" into violence as he starts to choose the Axe over the Hammer... And then you have the Berelain shenanigans. 

 

But yeah, we don't need 2-3 seasons of all that happening on screen. At most 4 episodes.

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faile gets captured in the last chapter of book 8.

then book 9 has 6 chapters on perrin and faile, out of 35 total chapters plus prologue.

book 10 has 7 chapters out of 30 devoted to perrin and faile.

then 7 more chapters out of 37 in book 11, at the end of which faile is freed.

 

thanks for wot-encyclopaedia for having that data neatly organized.

 

in total, the whole kidnapping arc took half a book.

people always remember that story arc as longer than it really was. me included.

 

it has character development in that both perrin and faile grow into their leadership. i suppose, though, that they could start doing it in the two rivers and through dumai wells, and that arc could be excised completely.

the fact that the show introduced sevanna, though, make me think they will keep part of it.

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 3/24/2025 at 3:23 PM, king of nowhere said:

faile gets captured in the last chapter of book 8.

then book 9 has 6 chapters on perrin and faile, out of 35 total chapters plus prologue.

book 10 has 7 chapters out of 30 devoted to perrin and faile.

then 7 more chapters out of 37 in book 11, at the end of which faile is freed.

 

thanks for wot-encyclopaedia for having that data neatly organized.

 

in total, the whole kidnapping arc took half a book.

people always remember that story arc as longer than it really was. me included.

 

it has character development in that both perrin and faile grow into their leadership. i suppose, though, that they could start doing it in the two rivers and through dumai wells, and that arc could be excised completely.

the fact that the show introduced sevanna, though, make me think they will keep part of it.

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I think they have to keep the kidnapping, because otherwise there is almost nothing for Perrin and Loial to do between the end of the War in the 2R and forging the hammer. Have her grabbed as part of the retreat from the Wells, and have Perrin and the Seanchan eliminate the Shaido at the end of the following season, and you can cut it down to maybe 1 episode worth of material.

[Spiritweaver1]

So I have been away for a while and I am sure much discussion is under the bridge.  After Season 2 I actually checked out the WoT audio books and listened to them.  It was most interesting and a completely different experience than reading them as I have done many times before.   My conclusion after that was that the show will never be as good as the book story.  It has the potential to be a good or even great story on its own but it is no adaptation.  It is a different story and needs to be judged on its own.   I will watch the story as long as it isn't too stupid, too dark or any other thing that turns me off a show.  I do feel that the more the writers can incorporate source dialog and situations the better the story seems to me.  Perhaps I mistake familiarity with better.   I do feel that season three is finding its way and seems better than the first two.  I will address some specific comments in other threads.

[Jordanfan63]

I forgot to add in my previous post that what I find perhaps the most off-putting is the dog’s breakfast that has been made of the order of events. This is not a complete dealbreaker for me, but it is discouraging.

[Agitel]

  On 3/22/2025 at 12:10 PM, king of nowhere said:

Will be almost impossibile. We are approachimg the slog, and we have 5 seasons left for 10 books. The writers will have to cut more plots. And then they will have to invent new plots to give the main characters something to do and convey the same major plot points.

It won't be possibile to follow the books closely. At best, they will be able to keep the occasional pivotal scene, like they did with rhuidean

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I disagree this is the necessary way to approach it. Outlander season seven (parts one and two) cut so much yet also remained so faithful on the main plot beats. I think much of the "slog" could be approached this way. 

 

I doubt it will. But I think it would work fine. 

Edited Sunday at 09:59 PM by Agitel

[Mailman]

It's probably a thing that varies for each individual but I never considered any of the books a slog.

 

I am also a massive re reader I have read the completed series above 10 times and the earlier books more than double that number with the earlier the book obviously having the most reads. The only sections that I find a little slow are the early parts of Faile's capture and the early section of Elayne's securing the throne.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/31/2025 at 1:09 AM, Mailman said:

It's probably a thing that varies for each individual but I never considered any of the books a slog.

 

I am also a massive re reader I have read the completed series above 10 times and the earlier books more than double that number with the earlier the book obviously having the most reads. The only sections that I find a little slow are the early parts of Faile's capture and the early section of Elayne's securing the throne.

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The “slog” had more to do with waiting for the next book only to have many of the plot lines go unresolved. Now that all the books are out, it’s really an unfair label. 

[Turin Turambar]

  On 3/31/2025 at 1:11 PM, Elder_Haman said:

The “slog” had more to do with waiting for the next book only to have many of the plot lines go unresolved. Now that all the books are out, it’s really an unfair label. 

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This. Waiting 2+ years to have a character be in like 1 chapter ( or none) was very disappointing. I think Mat was completely absent from one book in there. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

For me there is definitely a slog. Something happens to the narrative, and it is very difficult to put a finger on what it is exactly, as for me at least it isn't any one element. 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/31/2025 at 1:44 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

For me there is definitely a slog. Something happens to the narrative, and it is very difficult to put a finger on what it is exactly, as for me at least it isn't any one element. 

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I believe the crux of it was the book following the cleansing, where we get an entire book that's just going over everyone's view point of that singular event. From a reader's POV, that book was grueling, annoying, slow, and it felt like nothing really happened. We all understood how big that event was... But you remember how the first 4 or 5 books had this annoying thing where RJ would give this mini-recap explaining what sorta happened in the last book, and then he'd re-explain basic concepts like, what the one power is, and what this or that thing was, even though we ALREADY knew what that was cause he's explained it 15 times already? 

Yeah, that was that entire book, 35+ times, talking about the cleansing. lol

 

BUT from a writers perspective... The timelines were getting way out of sync. Perrin, Rand, Mat, and all the girls stories were starting to get to far ahead or behind each others.

So by having that single annoying book we all hate, talking about that singular event, it refocuses everyone to acknowledge that "Hey, everyone's now caught up to the same point in time! yay!" Perrin's no longer 6 months behind, and Rand's no longer 3 months ahead!

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 3/31/2025 at 1:57 PM, SinisterDeath said:

I believe the crux of it was the book following the cleansing, where we get an entire book that's just going over everyone's view point of that singular event. From a reader's POV, that book was grueling, annoying, slow, and it felt like nothing really happened. We all understood how big that event was... But you remember how the first 4 or 5 books had this annoying thing where RJ would give this mini-recap explaining what sorta happened in the last book, and then he'd re-explain basic concepts like, what the one power is, and what this or that thing was, even though we ALREADY knew what that was cause he's explained it 15 times already? 

Yeah, that was that entire book, 35+ times, talking about the cleansing. lol

 

BUT from a writers perspective... The timelines were getting way out of sync. Perrin, Rand, Mat, and all the girls stories were starting to get to far ahead or behind each others.

So by having that single annoying book we all hate, talking about that singular event, it refocuses everyone to acknowledge that "Hey, everyone's now caught up to the same point in time! yay!" Perrin's no longer 6 months behind, and Rand's no longer 3 months ahead!

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Yeah I have read quotes from Jordan saying he was surprised by the backlash and that it did not work as he intended, but I'm not sure how significant it was for me. 

 

I think more for me it things like the Cleansing being such huge events in-world, yet having no actual effect on the narrarive. The men would no longer go mad, but it did not actually change anything that was happening. There was a lot backtracking in the story - too many things that should have been pay-off was actually just red herrings. Too many things were relying on dramatic irony where we knew but the characters didn't and the list of things they didn't know seemed to keep increasing rather than occasionally releasing the frustration. 

 

And Faile and the Shaido of course. But that in and of itself wasn't such an issue, it was more part of a more indefiniable malaise. 

Edited Monday at 02:14 PM by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/31/2025 at 2:13 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Yeah I have read quotes from Jordan saying he was surprised by the backlash and that it did not work as he intended, but I'm not sure how significant it was for me. 

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Something else to remember here is that Winter's Heart (Cleansing) was written in 2000. RJ Wrote Crossroads of Twilight between 2000 and 2003.

 

What real world event happened between those years?

I believe RJ was interested in writing a story about a huge event (Cleansing, 9/11), as viewed from multiple perspectives from across the world.

 

He was highly interested in history, and he was no doubt well versed in modern politics, even if he wasn't vocal about them.