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[Samt]

15 hours ago, A Memory Of Why said:

Honestly guys, what does Lanfear actually accomplish? Other than the secret ending, for a fabled evil seductress she doesn't really get much done.

She does a lot actually.
 

Spoiler

She just doesn’t do much that actually helps the Dark One.  She’s on her own side.  Of course, and I’m not sure this needs to be in a spoiler, the bad guys lose. So I’m the end she fails. But if you look at Lanfear (and all of the forsaken to varying extents) not as a fanatically loyal servant of the DO but rather as a self interested actor with her own goals, it seems to me she does a lot. She sets up the Asmo mentorship situation. She saves Rand in the stone. The thing is, it seems that Lanfear’s plan involves Rand sort of winning and then her ending up in control of him. 

 

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, Samt said:

She does a lot actually.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

She just doesn’t do much that actually helps the Dark One.  She’s on her own side.  Of course, and I’m not sure this needs to be in a spoiler, the bad guys lose. So I’m the end she fails. But if you look at Lanfear (and all of the forsaken to varying extents) not as a fanatically loyal servant of the DO but rather as a self interested actor with her own goals, it seems to me she does a lot. She sets up the Asmo mentorship situation. She saves Rand in the stone. The thing is, it seems that Lanfear’s plan involves Rand sort of winning and then her ending up in control of him. 

 

on the other hand, it can be argued that it's a very, very, very stupid plan.

really, what are the chances of it actually succeeding? it's like lanfear put all her hopes on a lottery ticket

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

on the other hand, it can be argued that it's a very, very, very stupid plan.

really, what are the chances of it actually succeeding? it's like lanfear put all her hopes on a lottery ticket

I will argue that RJ doesn’t write darkfriend villains that make much sense, especially compared to how villains are written in the modern era. The forsaken are evil because they are evil and it isn’t really explained what they are doing or the motivation other than they want to be Nae’blis. Verrin kind of explains a reason for this. You get an idea of Moridins aims at the very end. 
 

Now RJ can write compelling bad guys, Elaida, The white cloaks and to some extent even Fain is written like a monster from a horror story but the Forsaken really come across a little cartoonish, which is part of what they are, selfish individuals who all want to be number one, but, other then moridin, we never understand what they plan to do once in that position other then lord it over the others. 
 

Lanfer I think, thinks she is in love with LTT and therefore Rand. She is convinced that LTT is in love with her, when Rand lets her see all of himself it finally breaks her and shows her that no, she will never have LTT again, that for her is winning having her love back on her arm to show off and parade around like property. 

[king of nowhere]

59 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

he Forsaken really come across a little cartoonish, which is part of what they are, selfish individuals who all want to be number one

That's not the problem. Villaims in it for power alone are ok. And most foresaken have reazonable plans.

I'm objecting to lanfear specifically. I need spoilers for that

Spoiler

Step 1: help rand to win

Step 2: capture or turn rand

What could possibly go wrong?

- the dark one may easily discover her.

- rand may still lose despite her

- rand, or his allies, may kill her

- rand may win but still refuse her

Extremely likely outcomes, each one a disaster for lanfear. While for her plan to succeed everything must align perfectly.

 

It reminds me of some table games where people have roles, given secretly, and those roles determine teams. And there is always one guy who gets the task of betraying and defeat both teams alone.

I've never, ever seen that guy win. And lanfear plans to put herself in that position.

I'd call it foolhardy reckless optimism, but it's not strong enough

 

[Guire]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

I will argue that RJ doesn’t write darkfriend villains that make much sense, especially compared to how villains are written in the modern era. The forsaken are evil because they are evil and it isn’t really explained what they are doing or the motivation other than they want to be Nae’blis. Verrin kind of explains a reason for this. You get an idea of Moridins aims at the very end. 
 

Now RJ can write compelling bad guys, Elaida, The white cloaks and to some extent even Fain is written like a monster from a horror story but the Forsaken really come across a little cartoonish, which is part of what they are, selfish individuals who all want to be number one, but, other then moridin, we never understand what they plan to do once in that position other then lord it over the others. 
 

Lanfer I think, thinks she is in love with LTT and therefore Rand. She is convinced that LTT is in love with her, when Rand lets her see all of himself it finally breaks her and shows her that no, she will never have LTT again, that for her is winning having her love back on her arm to show off and parade around like property. 

I think RJ had a lot of real world experience woth who and what causes destruction, death, and evil.  Looking at the uber powerful and the state of our current world Jordan was probably more right than wrong in the way he wrote his antagonists.

[Samt]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

on the other hand, it can be argued that it's a very, very, very stupid plan.

really, what are the chances of it actually succeeding? it's like lanfear put all her hopes on a lottery ticket

I wouldn't say it's so much a stupid plan as it is an impossible goal.  It's probably more or less the best plan possible considering what she wants.  Lanfear is psychotically obsessed with LTT such that she is madly (literally) in love with him while also hating him for rejecting her.  

 

I think the forsaken are mostly supposed to be cartoon level boogeymen.  They can be relatable at times, but they are ultimately all very evil.  We don't really get to see them become evil or develop as villains.  They are fully formed.  I think we get glimpses of the good people they could have become and the noble goals they may have held at one time.  But they have literally sold their souls to the devil.  They aren’t supposed to be terribly nuanced in their present states.  Lanfear and Moridin are probably the most nuanced, but they are still both just straight evil in the end.  

Edited August 26, 2023 by Samt

[Guire]

1 minute ago, Samt said:

I wouldn't say it's so much a stupid plan as it is an impossible goal.  It's probably more or less the best plan possible considering what she wants.  Lanfear is psychotically obsessed with LTT such that she is madly (literally) in love with him while also hating him for rejecting her.  

 

I think the forsaken are mostly supposed to be cartoon level boogeymen.  They can be relatable at times, but they are ultimately all very evil.  We don't really get to see them become evil or develop as villains.  They are fully formed.  I think we get glimpses of the good people they could have become and the noble goals they may have held at one time.  But they have literally sold their souls to the devil.  They are supposed to be terribly nuanced in their present states.  Lanfear and Moridin are probably the most nuanced, but they are still both just straight evil in the end.  

Becoming powerful doesnt require one to be nuanced or complex.  It requires one to be narcistic, vain, selfish, overconfident, and have enough talent to not flop from sheer incompetence.  Elon Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg, Marjorie Taylor Green, Jeff Gaetz, Trump, Bolsanaro,  and on and on.  You dont think some of the Kardassians or Kanye West would miss a chance at the dark friends social.

[Guire]

 Regardless of your politics. You cant look at reality and say Jordan wrote unrealistic villians.

[Scarloc99]

4 hours ago, Guire said:

Becoming powerful doesnt require one to be nuanced or complex.  It requires one to be narcistic, vain, selfish, overconfident, and have enough talent to not flop from sheer incompetence.  Elon Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg, Marjorie Taylor Green, Jeff Gaetz, Trump, Bolsanaro,  and on and on.  You dont think some of the Kardassians or Kanye West would miss a chance at the dark friends social.

But each of the forsaken had power of their own already, now I can understand a forsaken turning to avoid being punished, but turning out of jealousy or spite, there is a nuance there a story that I think is probably more interesting then the story told in the wheel of time. 
 

I have been reading the immense sci fi space opera the Horus Heresay, the quality of the writing is a bit hit and miss depending on the author but the best stories within it are not about the hero’s being heroic, it is the tiny steps that hero’s take to become the most evil beings in the galaxy. The way that each one is corrupted and turned away from his fathers vision and is set on that path to become the cartoon villain they started out as back in the 80’s when they where first thought up. 
 

I am really interested to know when RJ wrote his forsaken backstories and how much did they change over the years. It has always felt to me that much of the lore was written as he was writing that part in the book so I really wonder if RJ even knew Lanfers real goal before he died, or was he hoping to figure it out in the final books? 

[DreadLord31]

I would say we’re pretty far off topic at this point; but, I did also think that the Forsaken were pretty one-dimensional other than Isha’mael & Lanfear. 
Isha’maels reasoning actually made a ton of sense — it was essentially: the dark one only needs to win once, and if the wheel keeps turning and things just keep repeating, it’s inevitable that he will eventually win. 
 

Unlike many people’s opinions I’ve just read, I thought Lanfear was the most interesting and realistic Forsaken — illustrating the point that people who think they are in love are illogical/blind and do crazy and often reckless things. AND “Hell hath no fury…” Lanfear is the ultimate, evil ex. Yes, she intentionally puts herself in the position of trying to play both sides perfectly (which really puts her in an almost “no win” situation). But that’s exactly what makes her such an interesting Foil. 
 

And I would agree with the sentiment, that bad-guys in real life often are not all that nuanced. 
 

In Paradise Lost, I think what makes Milton’s Satan so interesting is how childish he is — it’s ultimately putting forth the idea that sin is infantilizing. 
 

 

[Guire]

Everyone powerful person is a villain to someone.  Decision making on a macro level usually requires some degree of winners and losers.  So a journey to corruption is just as interesting as a redemption arc.  But selfishness is probably the most dominant trait among powerful people even if they present as competant and concerned.  I think that is part of why RJ used young people as the world saviors.  Young people can still see hope and idealistic novel solutions while us old folks are careful , protective or worse case completely self absorbed.  But all villians needing some understandable reason I think is more a product of academic intersectionalism and trying to understand complex societal patterns.  

[DaddyFinn]

New clip. Ishamael.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by DaddyFinn

[A Memory Of Why]

Cool, someone pointed out he's chanting the dark prophecy from tGH, mostly in the old tongue..

 

Spoiler

Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

 

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

 

Kinda cool how he makes it sound like a satanic incantation.

 

P.s. YouTube has better contrast, I can't see much on the Twitter one above.

[Skipp]

Lots of information here and an excellent 4 minute clip that starts at about the 40 second mark.

 

https://www.amazon.com/live/broadcast/1d8c7107-36d4-4b12-a5c9-e3f6de910fe6?ref=cm_sw_al_CCkgCBt7gisRy

 

 

oh to Laugh at people who thought we weren't getting separate threads of the One Power.  In all seriousness this clip was really great, I loved the lesson, I loved Egwene talking Valda's words to heart.  And bloody stubborn Nynaeve.

 

Also there is a still image of Rand near the end in his iconic coat.

Spoiler

[DreadLord31]

Smart to lean into marketing with the costuming team! They were the highlight department of S1. LoL 

I'm not even kidding... they are doing a wonderful job with costuming (except for Loial)!

[Mailman]

11 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Smart to lean into marketing with the costuming team! They were the highlight department of S1. LoL 

I'm not even kidding... they are doing a wonderful job with costuming (except for Loial)!

Loial looks like the Burger King excellent marketing opportunity.

[Mailman]

13 hours ago, Skipp said:

Lots of information here and an excellent 4 minute clip that starts at about the 40 second mark.

 

https://www.amazon.com/live/broadcast/1d8c7107-36d4-4b12-a5c9-e3f6de910fe6?ref=cm_sw_al_CCkgCBt7gisRy

 

 

oh to Laugh at people who thought we weren't getting separate threads of the One Power.  In all seriousness this clip was really great, I loved the lesson, I loved Egwene talking Valda's words to heart.  And bloody stubborn Nynaeve.

 

Also there is a still image of Rand near the end in his iconic coat.

  Reveal hidden contents

First of the new clips that I really disliked. Fairly neutral about the others.

Makes Nynaeve look like an obstinate child. 

[DojoToad]

15 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Loial looks like the Burger King excellent marketing opportunity.

Yes, because the king wasn't creepy enough...

[DojoToad]

32 minutes ago, Mailman said:

First of the new clips that I really disliked. Fairly neutral about the others.

Makes Nynaeve look like an obstinate child. 

Very much how she acted in the books while trying to learn control of channeling.

 

Interesting cleansing drill they performed in the kitchens.  Looks like a possible change to a major upcoming event - or at least who came up with the idea of how to pull it off.

Edited August 30, 2023 by DojoToad

[SinisterDeath]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Very much how she acted in the books while trying to learn control of channeling.

 

Interesting cleansing drill they performed in the kitchens.  Looks like a possible change to a major upcoming event - or at least who came up with the idea of how to pull it off.

It's interesting you say this... because there's thing in books and TV called foreshadowing.

Where we see something early on that hints at a future event, and it might be a red herring as to who is the catalyst for that future event. Sometimes foreshadowed events mirror future events. Like how Steppin and Kerene mirror Lan and Moiraine.

 

Take Moiraine being shielded in episode 8.
 

Now look at what happened to Liandrin in Fires of Heaven via Moggy.
Mogi wove an incredibly complex inverted weave shielding Liandrin permanently... unless she could find someone to remove it. (She never did)

Moggy said "You will live, not stilled but knowing you could channel again if only you found someone to untie your shield; Yet that is only the beginning."

In the show, Ishy said to Moiraine. 
"Must be an awful feeling. To know the One Power is there, just at the end of your fingertips... but you can't quite touch it."

If they Keep Liandrin's arc intact in the show, where this event still happens. Then her arc was foreshadowed by what happened to Moiraine via Ishy.

This series has always been about the binary between genders. About the mirrors between men and women. In the show it seems we're getting binary reflections beyond just the male and female kind.

[DreadLord31]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Very much how she acted in the books while trying to learn control of channeling.

 

Interesting cleansing drill they performed in the kitchens.  Looks like a possible change to a major upcoming event - or at least who came up with the idea of how to pull it off.

Yeah, I agree. I thought this was a very well written scene. And all of us book readers (I think) picked up on what they could be setting up for (season 5 maybe?) in the future. 
 

I thought it perfectly acted out how Nynaeve feels about Aes Sedai, her issue with the block, her stubbornness, and that she has incredible power. It’s also smart to show this as a clip (they really ought to have done it sooner) because it tells the audience that that aweful season finale scene with Amalisa at least had a purpose going forward beyond “we just want to give the girls a big pay-off moment (as if they hadn’t already done that with Nynaeve multiple times). 

[Guire]

22 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

It's interesting you say this... because there's thing in books and TV called foreshadowing.

Where we see something early on that hints at a future event, and it might be a red herring as to who is the catalyst for that future event. Sometimes foreshadowed events mirror future events. Like how Steppin and Kerene mirror Lan and Moiraine.

 

Take Moiraine being shielded in episode 8.
 

Now look at what happened to Liandrin in Fires of Heaven via Moggy.
Mogi wove an incredibly complex inverted weave shielding Liandrin permanently... unless she could find someone to remove it. (She never did)

Moggy said "You will live, not stilled but knowing you could channel again if only you found someone to untie your shield; Yet that is only the beginning."

In the show, Ishy said to Moiraine. 
"Must be an awful feeling. To know the One Power is there, just at the end of your fingertips... but you can't quite touch it."

If they Keep Liandrin's arc intact in the show, where this event still happens. Then her arc was foreshadowed by what happened to Moiraine via Ishy.

This series has always been about the binary between genders. About the mirrors between men and women. In the show it seems we're getting binary reflections beyond just the male and female kind.

I am embracing the delightful possibilities of season 2 or I would have a strong response to this post. so with that in mind, may you go in the light and only good things happen to you and yours.

[king of nowhere]

37 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Yeah, I agree. I thought this was a very well written scene. And all of us book readers (I think) picked up on what they could be setting up for (season 5 maybe?) in the future. 
 

I thought it perfectly acted out how Nynaeve feels about Aes Sedai, her issue with the block, her stubbornness, and that she has incredible power. It’s also smart to show this as a clip (they really ought to have done it sooner) because it tells the audience that that aweful season finale scene with Amalisa at least had a purpose going forward beyond “we just want to give the girls a big pay-off moment (as if they hadn’t already done that with Nynaeve multiple times). 

indeed, that scene could salvage the whole thing with amalisa, which wasn't a great moment otherwise.

 

gives me more hope that season 2 will be better than 1

[nsmallw]

5 hours ago, Mailman said:

First of the new clips that I really disliked. Fairly neutral about the others.

Makes Nynaeve look like an obstinate child. 

That's because she IS obstinate and full of pride at this point in the show. 

 

[nsmallw]

25 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

indeed, that scene could salvage the whole thing with amalisa, which wasn't a great moment otherwise.

 

gives me more hope that season 2 will be better than 1

You say season 5. I'm nervous we won't even get a season 4