Rumor from London Comic-Con

[JaimAybara]

It’s going to be so fun breaking down the episodes and determining whether or not we can pick up on Black Ajah making slips too. 
 

*I mean to say black Ajah revealing themselves because we caught them in their lies.

Edited October 23, 2021 by JaimAybara

[Pandemonium]

it's odd that moraine says one of them is the dragon reborn so early on.  that really changes the dynamic of the whole 1st book.  

[Skipp]

1 minute ago, Pandemonium said:

it's odd that moraine says one of them is the dragon reborn so early on.  that really changes the dynamic of the whole 1st book.  

 

I kinda agree.  I hope the person whom said that misheard.  Or I hope they write it in smartly.

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, Pandemonium said:

it's odd that moraine says one of them is the dragon reborn so early on.  that really changes the dynamic of the whole 1st book.  

I might be wrong but I thought she said that to us, the viewers. Not to the "possible Dragons".

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

I might be wrong but I thought she said that to us, the viewers. Not to the "possible Dragons".

She absolutely did. That was all voiceover and no dialogue. 

[DaddyFinn]

45 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

She absolutely did. That was all voiceover and no dialogue. 

Spoiler from the titled comic con. One of the participants recorded his reactions and we hear the scenes:

 

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/VYSuNRoHQ-E

 

After the Winternight battle Moiraine is confronted by villagers and she says that the Dragon has been reborn. Didn't say at least in that scene that one of the kids is the Dragon.

 

Btw. The sound effects, screams etc. are just gorgeous. 

 

This is from the comments on that video. 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[Ser Abin]

11 hours ago, TheMountain said:

My god. My greatest fear for the show is materializing.

Moiraine doesn't say anything about the dragon reborn in the eye of the world at all. Why would they change that. I mean, no one wants to be the dragon reborn. So stating that as a reason would be stupid.

[Guest redgiant]

I'm not worried over what she says  which includes Egwene. Others have explained it and it would make sense to allow this as Aes Sedai misdirection, and like showing Logain more I can understand this sort of change.

 

So Morraine can say that and its fine, ... but knowing to herself (kept to herself for now) that it is of course one of the boys. I am okay with that angle.

 

What I am worried about is if they actively change Gitara Moroso's foretelling which should be shown in some manner at some point in the series

"He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!"

 

which Morraine was present for, or Tigraine/Shaiel and Janduin's story.

 

So I fully expect that at some point later we will be shown that Morraine indeed knew this all along, cue Gitara, Tamra, Suian and Morraine flashback.

 

When you start messing with little details that have far-reaching consequences back into the historical threads and related foreshadowings that tie the entire series together, that's when I get really upset with this "change anything" mentality. It really borders on disrespect for the books' going to all the trouble Jordan did to install all the layers of foreshadowing and puzzle pieces, if they try to simplify this series to appeal to people who can't be bothered - or are incapable - of understanding nuance, foreshadowing and discerning relationships between seemingly unconnected events. Sometimes it takes whole seasons in the TV series to pass before an event that was shown back in Season 1 makes more sense and affects the plot in Season 3. The books did this, and the show should do this.

 

As I have said before, none of us knew the plot going into the books at all, and we all "got it" just fine. Why would you think a TV audience won't also "get it", and appreciate the immersive story that made them "get it" by just telling the story Jordan wrote with changes to adapt it to a TV series (minus gratuitous changes that are not needed simply to put it into a TV series format)?

[DaddyFinn]

13 minutes ago, redgiant said:

I'm not worried over what she says  which includes Egwene. Others have explained it and it would make sense to allow this as Aes Sedai misdirection, and like showing Logain more I can understand this sort of change.

 

So Morraine can say that and its fine, ... but knowing to herself (kept to herself for now) that it is of course one of the boys. I am okay with that angle.

 

What I am worried about is if they actively change Gitara Moroso's foretelling which should be shown in some manner at some point in the series

"He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!"

 

which Morraine was present for, or Tigraine/Shaiel and Janduin's story.

 

So I fully expect that at some point later we will be shown that Morraine indeed knew this all along, cue Gitara, Tamra, Suian and Morraine flashback.

 

When you start messing with little details that have far-reaching consequences back into the historical threads and related foreshadowings that tie the entire series together, that's when I get really upset with this "change anything" mentality. It really borders on disrespect for the books' going to all the trouble Jordan did to install all the layers of foreshadowing and puzzle pieces, if they try to simplify this series to appeal to people who can't be bothered - or are incapable - of understanding nuance, foreshadowing and discerning relationships between seemingly unconnected events. Sometimes it takes whole seasons in the TV series to pass before an event that was shown back in Season 1 makes more sense and affects the plot in Season 3. The books did this, and the show should do this.

 

As I have said before, none of us knew the plot going into the books at all, and we all "got it" just fine. Why would you think a TV audience won't also "get it", and appreciate the immersive story that made them "get it" by just telling the story Jordan wrote with changes to adapt it to a TV series (minus gratuitous changes that are not needed simply to put it into a TV series format)?

The amount of foreshadowing in all the pictures and teasers and clips has been huge. It seems that the production team really cares about that.

[TheMountain]

In my view, if true, this has nothing to do with wanting to add mystery to who could be the Dragon Reborn. In the books, everybody knows that the DR can only be a man, from the highest king to the lowest farmer. If true, this change is for one reason, and one reason only. Somebody thought that saying the prophecized savior of the story could only be a man was problematic in today's climate, so they threw Egwene in the mix, major world-building consequences and lore-breaking ramifications be damned. Never mind the fact that Saidin is tainted and he's destined to go mad... "...details." Having any character contemplate a woman being the DR for even a moment would be seriously lore-breaking and fundamentally altering the history of Randland.

 

As much of a "book purist" as I am, I'd actually tolerate a lot of changes in the show and try to enjoy it anyway. This though would probably turn me off from watching it completely. At the very least, I would't try to get my wife to watch it with me, after having gone on and on about how great WoT is for years.

Edited October 23, 2021 by TheMountain

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

I usually try to remain hopeful - or at least come back to that.

 

This is just promo stuff. Let's keep that in mind. Maybe it's not in the actual series but just for marketing here at the beginning. 

 

On the other hand, if Egwene IS included in the possible Dragon Reborn candidates. I agree with TheMountain. 

 

That's a VERY BAD writing decision for at least three reasons:

 

#1) Dragon Reborn misdirection at all is a bad writing decision...because: all the fans know who the Dragon is. All the non-fans (in the Information Age) could find out in a second if they wished to. The payoff isnt worth the effort to misdirect on the Dragon...with Egwene, Logain, or anyone else. 

 

#2) As TheMountain points out - it fundamentally doesn't work in the WoT for the Dragon to even possibly be female ... because it is the juxtaposition of a feared-tainted-destined for madness-savior that makes the Dragon a richer, more complex savior figure in the first place. They would be majorly majorly majorly alternating the story if the Dragon even possibly could be female (channel without taint, not go mad, ECT...). And for what?? ...see #1. 

 

And #3) Egwene's the one character in tEotW that really WANTS to leave EF and go along because she wants adventure, she wants power, she wants to be like Moiraine ... that's pretty fundamental to her character and her character arc ... If she kind of has to go along because she might be the Dragon...then you have fundamentally changed who Egwene is from the outset. 

 

Making Egwene a Dragon candidate even would be a horrible monstrous rediculous and 100% unnecessary change. 

 

So far, the stuff I've seen has NOT suggested that they're making major changes like THAT...

I remain hopeful. 

 

 

 

[JaimAybara]

I don’t think misdirection is the worst idea. Fans that like the show will have very high spoiler allergies. I knew plenty of people that watched GoT that didn’t go looking for the answers online while watching the show. That’s just jumping to conclusions. We also know our community is really responsible (for the most part) of avoiding spoilers for newcomers. So, I personally think that approach is kind of fun for the newbies who didn’t read the books. They will still get to try and figure out the mystery of the Dragon Reborn and all the prophecies and what they mean, and in the end they will actually get answers haha. Man, that will be satisfying.  
 

On the second point regarding Saidin and the mad savior aspect. I agree 100%. If they remove that aspect, they remove the internal battle and will only have external forces driving their motivations. How does Lews Therin play a part? How would Egwene even go insane? Why would reds be chasing her at all? They wouldn’t… The amount of threads that get burned from the pattern or are woven differently would be irrevocably  altered and get way out of control.

Edited October 23, 2021 by JaimAybara

[Elder_Haman]

People need to take a deep breath and relax. Like @Wolfbrother31said above, there is nothing in anything we’ve seen so far explicitly stating that Egwene is seen as a candidate to be the Dragon. It
 

Egwene is, however, a very important character in the series and there’s nothing wrong with highlighting that in promoting the show. 
 

8 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

#1) Dragon Reborn misdirection at all is a bad writing decision...because: all the fans know who the Dragon is. All the non-fans (in the Information Age) could find out in a second if they wished to. The payoff isnt worth the effort to misdirect on the Dragon...with Egwene, Logain, or anyone else. 

I disagree with this though. When the books open, Moiraine does NOT know who the DR is. The characters have to remain true to what they do and do not know in order to remain authentic. Keeping the question open for awhile will help to drive tension and make the world feel real. 
 

The key is simply to not belabor the issue. Ultimately, the show isn’t about solving the mystery of who the Dragon is. But exploring the gaps in the characters’ knowledge is what creates good drama. 

 

[TheDreadReader]

It might help allay some fears if you look at the way that Rand is framed in these stills from the Moiraine's Quest video.   He is visually separated from the rest.  It is a good way to highlight that there is something distinctive about him.

 

(The movie Sixth Sense used a similar technique to a great effect in setting up its twist) 

 

 

[DaddyFinn]

Honestly, what would Rand do if he was not the Dragon? Nothing. It would change the story so much that third of the books should be rewritten to fit the change. ?

[Skipp]

3 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Honestly, what would Rand do if he was not the Dragon? Nothing. It would change the story so much that third of the books should be rewritten to fit the change. ?

Clearly he would join the Black Tower and taken over Taim or Logain's place.  Because obliviously the are combining Taim and Logain so which ever path they take him down Rand will get the other.

 

/s

[king of nowhere]

4 hours ago, TheMountain said:

In my view, if true, this has nothing to do with wanting to add mystery to who could be the Dragon Reborn. In the books, everybody knows that the DR can only be a man, from the highest king to the lowest farmer. If true, this change is for one reason, and one reason only. Somebody thought that saying the prophecized savior of the story could only be a man was problematic in today's climate, so they threw Egwene in the mix, major world-building consequences and lore-breaking ramifications be damned. Never mind the fact that Saidin is tainted and he's destined to go mad... "...details." Having any character contemplate a woman being the DR for even a moment would be seriously lore-breaking and fundamentally altering the history of Randland.

 

while i agree that it would create those inconsistencies, i have enough faith in the writing team to think they would also make whatever necessary changes to fix them.

Possibilities:

- this is a teaser, and it is rephrased to fool the viewers. _{no change to the plot}

- moiraine knows the dragon is a man, but the common farmer does not, and moiraine uses misdirection to grab egwene too, for reasons. _{only a small change to the plot}

- moiraine knows the dragon is a man, but she recognizes egwene as ta'veren and she figures she has an important role to play too, so she includes her among "people important to stop the DO". _{This would require changing egwene to ta'veren (lots of people think she should be one anyway) and having moiraine see that, small changes to the plot}

- the dragon can be a woman in certain turnings. This time saidin is tainted, but maybe in other turnings of the wheel or in other ages it's saidar that's tainted still, in this turning moiraine must know the dragon channels saidin

- there are a few confirmed in-world cases of people channeling the "wrong" power, generally linked to what we now would recognize as genetic conditions. I remember hearing a child born with a mix of XX and XY cells, what the hell is hir gender supposed to be? no, moiraine can feel the spark for saidar in egwene, this rules her out as saidin user

 

ok, moiraine must know egwene is not a possible dragon. and it has nothing to do with woke, it's just that the dragon is supposed to go mad for the taint, and egwene channels saidar.

And if they introduced plot holes, i would definitely not be happy.

but there are still the first three possibilities that are still open.

 

there was a big room full of people to finalize the script, among them people very familiar with the original work. I'd expect them to catch something of that importance.

[Agitel]

2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Honestly, what would Rand do if he was not the Dragon? Nothing. It would change the story so much that third of the books should be rewritten to fit the change. ?

 

I don't think anyone's remotely suggested they'd actually change who the Dragon is.

[Elder_Haman]

14 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

I don't think anyone's remotely suggested they'd actually change who the Dragon is.

Lots of people are suggesting it. There’s just no reason to actually think it. It’s just the thin reed that people who are determined to hate the show are grasping at. 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

I don't think they're changing who the Dragon is ... there has been 0 evidence that their going to majorly change the trajectory of the entire series. 

[TheMountain]

I don't think that a common farmer not knowing that the DR is male is a minor change. Everyone, from the highest king to the lowest farmer knows this. The story of the Dragon, the Dark One and the Creator is the closest thing to religion in Randland. The Two Rivers is not some uncontacted tribe deep in the Amazon either, they have contact with the outside world by way of others, albeit extremely limited. It makes no sense for them not to know. Part of the fame/infamy of the Dragon is the tainted Saidin aspect, and the fact that everyone knows about the DR is one of the things that makes him so dangerous. He's able to summon thousands of followers from every rank of society. Otherwise False Dragons wouldn't be nearly as important. 

 

As much as I fear for the show, I feel pretty confident that they wouldn't do something so drastic as to change the DR to Egwene, I'm mostly bothered by the lore-breaking ramifications of her even being considered a possibility by *anyone.*

 

In some of my darkest nightmares I can see them turning Egwene into Ameresu or something though in a misguided attempt to put her on equal footing...

Edited October 23, 2021 by TheMountain

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

I'm mostly bothered by the lore-breaking ramifications of her even being considered a possibility by *anyone.*

Even by viewers? Even if only for a couple of episodes?

[Skipp]

8 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

I don't think that a common farmer not knowing that the DR is male is a minor change. Everyone, from the highest king to the lowest farmer knows this. The story of the Dragon, the Dark One and the Creator is the closest thing to religion in Randland. The Two Rivers is not some uncontacted tribe deep in the Amazon either, they have contact with the outside world by way of others, albeit extremely limited. It makes no sense for them not to know. Part of the fame/infamy of the Dragon is the tainted Saidin aspect, and the fact that everyone knows about the DR is one of the things that makes him so dangerous. He's able to summon thousands of followers from every rank of society. Otherwise False Dragons wouldn't be nearly as important. 

 

As much as I fear for the show, I feel pretty confident that they wouldn't do something so drastic as to change the DR to Egwene, I'm mostly bothered by the lore-breaking ramifications of her even being considered a possibility by *anyone.*

 

In some of my darkest nightmares I can see them turning Egwene into Ameresu or something though in a misguided attempt to put her on equal footing...

 

While this is all true many of the common people don't separate between Male and Female Aes Sedai when it comes to the breaking of the world.  These two facts are a bit of a contradiction to each other.

 

But I do disagree that having the "audience" consider this being a possibility would  break anything.

[TheMountain]

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Even by viewers? Even if only for a couple of episodes?

 

By viewers only? Okay, maybe. If done right and not dragged on for more than a couple episodes. But purely through some sort of clever misdirection. The characters need to know and their dialogue should reflect that. This is why the marketing was only bothersome, but the rumor from London Comic Con set off red flags for me.

Edited October 23, 2021 by TheMountain

[king of nowhere]

6 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

I don't think that a common farmer not knowing that the DR is male is a minor change. Everyone, from the highest king to the lowest farmer knows this. 

...

Part of the fame/infamy of the Dragon is the tainted Saidin aspect, and the fact that everyone knows about the DR is one of the things that makes him so dangerous. He's able to summon thousands of followers from every rank of society. Otherwise False Dragons wouldn't be nearly as important.

 

Not sure.

Ok, people have heard the story of the dragon, but most of them are hazy on details, and on everything that has to do with the power. the stories people told in the two rivers at the beginning showcase great ignorance. people know that male channelers are cursed in some way, but only the educated know the distinction between saidin and saidar, and the taint. doesn't help that aes sedai worked hard to shroud themselves in mystery.

in the books, nobody would believe a woman dragon. But I say, having the uneducated masses believe it in the show would not be a huge stretch.

 

and let's still keep in mind this is all hypothetical, there's no evidence the show is going to do any of that