full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[Agitel]

Regarding the special effects, and starting specifically with Trollocs, they meet, if not slightly exceed, my expectations. I really do feel like I see the same issues with the trollocs you all do, "obvious" CGI in some places, I just think my expectations are different. If this was cinema or if it had the absurd LotR -show budget they could look flawless. They don't. But I think they did a very good job in a show with such intense visual effects.

 

Places like Shadar Logoth were obvious a mix of sets and CGI. I'm not sure what to do about that. The Witcher had some of the same issues (I'm looking at you, Cintra palace). There's no real-life location to film something like Shadar Logoth. 

 

The One Power is something I would have done different aesthetically, but the weaving I feel is fine as far as visual effects quality goes.

 

We are dealing with a heavy high fantasy story that includes a lot if supernatural, fantastical elements. I just think some of the "gaps" we're seeing is just the genre we're watching. The show has great funding for a first season, but resources aren't unlimited.

 

GOT was much grittier, much more human. You could use a lot of real world locations for their cities. There weren't eight foot tall human-beast hybrids in every episode. Walkers were just human shaped figures in make up (early on). Same goes with Orcs in LotR. You didn't have magical channeling in every episode. There were different hurdles as far as visual effects go.

 

I do hope as the series continues we'll see improvements here and there in WOT visual effects, of course, but I think it's a disservice the the show-makers to just say it all looks bad. I think it all looks pretty good, given the genre and the budget.

[Agitel]

6 minutes ago, enigmoxical said:

IMO, the only way to salvage this mess is to suspend the series now and get a real director (perhaps of del Toro caliber) to bring life to series. 

 

Like...  It's comments like this that make me wonder if people just set their expectations way too high.

[enigmoxical]

I might add that they've completely screwed up the introduction, the foundation, not only of Moraine and Lan, but that of Perrin (who, in the book, strived extra hard to be gentle because of his size), but also Thom and Min, two of the most important characters. They pulled the introduction of the Whitecloaks out of their butts. There are wolves, completely at the wrong time and with no Elyas. In all, ALL of Jim's foundations have been discarded so that the directors could insert their own narrative. 

[enigmoxical]

7 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Like...  It's comments like this that make me wonder if people just set their expectations way too high.

Agitel, the problem is that I DON'T set my expectations too high! That's how bad this production is that I felt that I had to comment at all! They have shown great disrespect to Jim and to his work, as well as to his readers.

[Ploodie]

I"m trying very hard to keep reminding myself that "the book is the book and the movie is the movie" .. you can't always put everything into an adaptation. And yet, there is a point where you gut it so much that it leaves you wondering if it's even worth doing in the first place. 

 

I don't mind putting more focus on Moraine at all.. but I absolutely hated the opening :20 seconds of her dressing and doing full exposition dump on the audience. Why can't we take time and have mystery anymore? I love how in the book she doesn't appear until the arrival at the village. She's a mystery, in the book no one knows what she is after. When you see her in the first scene and get all that expo, it becomes HER story, and all the mystery is gone. 

 

The Two Rivers characters were originally naive youths. They weren't married, they weren't banging, they weren't dealing with lecherous parents etc.. 

 

I dunno - I'm gonna give it more time, but I just hate how there is no mystery and no innocence at the start. 

 

I will say this, though.. I like being able to FINALLY hear how you say all the character's names, haha!

Edited November 20, 2021 by Ploodie

[Agitel]

10 minutes ago, enigmoxical said:

I might add that they've completely screwed up the introduction, the foundation, not only of Moraine and Lan, but that of Perrin (who, in the book, strived extra hard to be gentle because of his size), but also Thom and Min, two of the most important characters. They pulled the introduction of the Whitecloaks out of their butts. There are wolves, completely at the wrong time and with no Elyas. In all, ALL of Jim's foundations have been discarded so that the directors could insert their own narrative. 

 

Nitpicking every condensing and re-arranging of the books is definitely having expectations too high. This isn't them doing their own thing, it's them having to adapt 14 books into 6 to 8 seasons of television where actors have their own schedules they need to work around, packing information doled out over chapters condensed into one scene. The showrunners have been upfront about this and that it's not going to be word for word, scene for scene, that there will need to be rearranging, but they're hoping to capture the spirit of the plot and characters.

[Scarloc99]

On 11/19/2021 at 6:44 AM, CaddySedai said:

I do want to point something out

 

If anything the series has already successfully opened up discussion about NEW WoT content - something we have not had on DM in years. 

 

New members are joining to talk about it with us. 

 

I already view it as a success. Now to see if it has legs. 

I have many friends who are fantasy lovers who where holding off reading the books until they saw the series, as a single unit they all now are telling me they will not be reading what to them seems like young adult fiction. 

the series has some serious issues it needs to address now it has got over the pilot 2 episodes. We can’t undo the rushed start and poor dialogue and acting so far but I do hope that it picks up. This feels like an early 2000’s piece of tv and that is an issue. Shows like game of thrones, See, the Expanse, Lucifer and the boys have demonstrated that you can have really intelligent writing and direction on the small screen where as so far this feel more like the arrow verse in terms of writing and feel which isn’t surprising given the credits of the show runner. The issue for me is that in its current form I don’t see this being pushed for the full run and can see Amazon pulling the plug in 2 seasons. Seasons should have been 12-15 episodes long to give breathing space. I will see out the first season but overall on current form I don’t see this sticking. 

 

[enigmoxical]

19 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

This feels like an early 2000’s piece of tv and that is an issue. Shows like game of thrones, See, the Expanse, Lucifer and the boys have demonstrated that you can have really intelligent writing and direction on the small screen where as so far this feel more like the arrow verse

Exactly, Sir_Charrid. It's much like a low-budget SiFi channel adaptation. Sorry, Agitel, but I'm not the only person with these observations. I would rather they scrap the whole project and start from scratch. The actors are fine...the directors, scenes, and script are not.

[Maximillion]

55 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

Like...  It's comments like this that make me wonder if people just set their expectations way too high.

 

They must have a lot more footage in the can that they chopped from the series.  Rafe is obviously a very poor show runner.  Maybe someone else could put things together better.

They could recut episodes 4-8 and turn the remainder into a 10-12 episodes.

I would not mind them delaying to try and salvage the show.

A long 8 series run is not going to happen based on a continuation of what we have seen.

 

The YA criticism seems to be fair - the show is being more eagerly received by under 24yr olds, especially female.

 

At the very least they should dump Rafe for season 3 and recut season 2.  They even have time to shoot more for season 2.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Maximillion

[MasterAblar]

Having unpacked the first 3 episodes a little more, there are the 3 main things that I dislike and all of them can at least be fixed to a certain extent. Seems more productive than just being utter doom and gloom about everything  ?. Obviously this is from the perspective of a book reader who knows what comes next for the characters and see issues with what has happened so far:

 

 

Mat's family: the main issue here, is that with Mat's father in particular being a scumbag, it takes away Mat's underlying influence to ultimately be good and heroic when the chips are down. I always felt that it was important for the Eamond Fielders to have a strong foundation, that they were all raised well. This change might explain why Mat is irresponsible and immature and carefree, but that isn't all Mat is.                                                                                                                                                                                         

It would have gone a long way to show a tiny bit of nuance with his parents. For exemple, when Mat went to find his sisters during the attack, having either his father, or his mother, try to follow him but be unnable to because their significant other was injured would have taken just a quick line of dialogue and at least shown a glimpse of the heroicness from his parents. Something that would pass on to Mat. Frankly I think they mainly went too hard on the sheer misery of Mat's family. Showing them living in poverty and hardship would have been enough in my opinion, perhaps with that situation beginning to create the dysfunctional family we were given. It would have served to expliain Mat's character fine without butchering his parents.

 

I think the simplest way of fixing it (because it does need fixing in my opinion), is first of all to of course have the family's relations improve on Perrin's return to the Two Rivers, and secondly for Mat to explain to someone, perhaps Thom, that his family wasn't always as miserable as they were shown.

 

 

Perrin's wife: the problem here is of course that the sheer trauma experienced by Perrin should by all rights cripple his character. And it seemingly hasn't affected him much so far. Other than a few tears I feel like I'm watching show Perrin acting like book Perrin. I can accept that he's just stuck in his head and shellshocked but he needs unpack soon, otherwise it's gonna start feeling real cheap to be honest.Honestly having Perrin kill someone else, perhaps Master Luhan like Sanderson suggested, or even simply another villager, in exactly the same manner would have served to set up his fear of losing control just as well. Alas they went for the wife.

 

How to make it better: Elyas. Elyas now please. Having Elyas show up, would allow Perin to realize his connection to the wolves, freak out over that and what it means for him, and unpack his accidental killing of his wife. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like Elyas has been cast? So not sure if he's showing up or if another character will take over his role but I really think he needs to show up. Later on, I think it would be good for Perrin to have a heart to heart with Faile over the whole situation, with perhaps his wife being a darkfriend making the whole thing more confusing to him.

 

 

Moiraine revealing one of the 4 is the Dragon Reborn: Putting aside the inclusion of Egwene which I'm allowing time to see if they do something with it... I might hate this more than the previous two changes. There is no way Moiraine would openly reveal that to them. It's been her secret life mission for 20 years, and she just reveals this to 4 nobodies? One of whom could be a darkfriend! In front of a bunch of other people!! 

 

Beyond the fact that it doesn't suit her character to be so open with such vital information, its also just stupid of her. And furthermore the utter and complete lack of reaction from the 4 is madness. Mat doesn't buy it for a second but beyond that they just go along and are at best skeptical  or unsure. She didn't tell them they were secret royalty or something, she just told them that one of them is the reincarnation of a madman who's call to fame is that he slaughtered his family and broke the world and also maybe was allied to the Dark One. The boys at the least should be seriously panicked about this.

 

They've made it slightly better with some discussion between Mat and Rand, but I really think there needs to be some serious terror from them that this could actually be true. The possibilty of being the Dragon Reborn is not some insignificant tidbit of information.

 

 

Lastly this is more of a nitpick then a big issue with the show but:

 

The 4 taveren in the Two Rivers line...: No. Just no. There's so much wrong with that line. For book readers it makes no sense whatsoever. What weird things have happened in the Two River? How are there rumours about a concept no one knows about?

 

The very concept of taveren makes that line so dumb frankly. And from a show watcher perspective... it was never explained what a Taveren was. So what's the point of the line? Is it for the benefit of book fans? In that case it's a shame it makes no sense. Furthermore I've already stated it elsewhere but I really hope they don't make Egwene a taveren. I honestly believe it would be a diservice to her character.

 

Not much to do except pretend the line doesn't exist. And not make Egwene a taveren.

 

 

To be clear I very much enjoy the show even if I can point out countless things I wish were in the show (or weren't...). These things just predictably stood out to me as problematic.

[Vartija]

Excellent post @MasterAblar! It really bugged me that none of the boys seemed the least bit worried about being the Dragon Reborn. I have to believe they'll delve into that in later episodes (perhaps with Logain) but so far it's been a complete non issue which is just wrong. They should be terrified about possibly being able to channel.

 

Also agree with the needless bit about the four ta'veren. It felt like fan service for book readers but fans should immediately see it doesn't really make sense. And it makes even less sense for show watchers because they didn't explain what a ta'veren is. The original concept of Loial explaining it is much better, since at that point a lot of ta'veren stuff has already happened to Rand and others. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Vartija

[WhiteVeils]

Damn it's going to be heartbreaking in Season 3 (probably) when Egwene or Nynaeve says something to Mat about his sisters, and he'll look at them blank faced and say, "Who?"   

Edited November 20, 2021 by WhiteVeils

[Harad the White]

"I hate this series. Every character is ruined, the sets are crap, the show runner is a war criminal, and Jordan is rolling over in his grave. But, I will keep watching."

This encapsulates the erudite criticism in this thread.

One of my favorites is that it is too gritty AND is not gritty enough. The unique thing about GoT was not that it was gritty, but that it continuously killed favs. WoT is not like that, book or series. Get over it.

Another is that each character is ruined. They are not naive enough. They have sex! They have miserable family lives! They made a mistake in the middle of a battle for life or death! Oh, the horror. 

Instead, a modest proposal is to accept the series for what it is: an artistic attempt to portray the world of the book, while adding or subtracting elements that fit the vision of the series. Sanderson is a producer as GRRM was a producer. They are more artistic and knowledgeable guardians than the pipsqueaks herein. 

 

[Maximillion]

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

"I hate this series. Every character is ruined, the sets are crap, the show runner is a war criminal, and Jordan is rolling over in his grave. But, I will keep watching."

This encapsulates the erudite criticism in this thread.

One of my favorites is that it is too gritty AND is not gritty enough. The unique thing about GoT was not that it was gritty, but that it continuously killed favs. WoT is not like that, book or series. Get over it.

Another is that each character is ruined. They are not naive enough. They have sex! They have miserable family lives! They made a mistake in the middle of a battle for life or death! Oh, the horror. 

Instead, a modest proposal is to accept the series for what it is: an artistic attempt to portray the world of the book, while adding or subtracting elements that fit the vision of the series. Sanderson is a producer as GRRM was a producer. They are more artistic and knowledgeable guardians than the pipsqueaks herein. 

 

 

Over emotional and inaccurate take on the discussion.

 

[WhiteVeils]

15 hours ago, AusLeviathan said:

A person can't have excellent tracking skills if you don't explain how. What about Nynaeve would suggest she knows how to track someone? She's introduced as the village healer and it's made very clear that it's all she knows (since they removed her father and he had brought up solely by the previous village healer).

They have clearly, very clearly, established that Nynaeve can listen to the wind, and that listening to the wind offers a certain amount of sensing that goes beyond just 'sound'...to the point where she can sense something ominous coming even if she doesn't know what that something is (having never encountered a trolloc before).  
Given that, if I were a non-book reader, I'd just assume that Nynaeve used her power to sense where Moiraine was.  No tracking needed.

[swollymammoth]

Has anyone mentioned how the Whitecloak intro to episode 2 seems to imply that Aes Sedai need their hands to channel? Like, what else are we supposed to infer from that? Literally what the heck were they thinking? 

 

The Whitecloaks aren't meant to be threatening to Aes Sedai. They're meant to be threatening to normal, average people. 

[swollymammoth]

Amazon Producer #1 "So imagine this, it's the Shire, right? But Sam (who really doesn't have much of a character anyway) is now the brother of a deadbeat who gambles the family into debt. Sam would let it slide, but he used to be in love with his brother's wife who died when Merry's father was driving his wagon drunk. For her sake, he can't abandon his brother, so he spends his nights sneaking into nearby farms and stealing food. When the debts pile up, he sneaks off to Frodo's house. Frodo is his best friend, but he's also rich, so Sam is going to steal from him. That's the real reason that he's dropping eaves when Gandalf catches him!" 

 

Amazon Producer #2 "But, doesn't that kind of ruin the Shire? Isn't the Shire supposed to be a rural Eden where everyone is essentially good natured even if there are occasional squabbles and pettiness among its residents? Aren't the characters going to spend the rest of the story looking back on their life in the Shire and contextualizing their current, dire situations in relation to the life they once had? Won't turning it into a Breaking Bad style depiction of suburbia sort of undermine a necessary facet of the classis Hero's Journey story we're trying to tell. 

 

Amazon Producer #1 "Shut up. Sam was a flat character. This backstory gives him depth that he never had in the original. How can people relate to and enjoy watching a character whose schtik is that he's just a really good guy?" 

[Maximillion]

A 2 hour first episode and 10 episodes per season was the request to Amazon and they refused.

 

I think we're seeing on screen now the effect of that decision and why things feel rushed.  It's been chopped to pieces.

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Maximillion

[AusLeviathan]

29 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Given that, if I were a non-book reader, I'd just assume that Nynaeve used her power to sense where Moiraine was.  No tracking needed.

Well yeah and that's exactly how they're going to explain it. Of course they'll have to ignore that in the future, because if the One Power can just find anyone you want whenever you want then you kind of break much of the plot of the books.

 

Does that explain how she managed to pass through two areas that had been filled with hundreds of Trollocs though, Trollocs that it's been established were also looking for her (in the books they weren't looking for her and the Fade was still unsure where the group was prior to them meeting up with Nynaeve). Combine that with the show making it clear that the Trollocs can keep finding the group for unexplained reasons (and therefore should be able to find her) and it becomes almost comical that she safely reached them on her own.

 

What did happen to those hundreds of Trollocs outside Shadar Logoth anyway. In the books it was made clear they were eventually forced into the city by the Fade which took care of them and gave everyone some peace from the Trollocs for a while. Here they sort of just stand around and when Lan and Moiraine leave the city they're gone for some unexplained reason and Lan seems unconcerned about them, even setting down to rest, even though as far as he knows they should be very close by.

Edited November 20, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Maximillion]

10 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Well yeah and that's exactly how they're going to explain it. Of course they'll have to ignore that in the future, because if the One Power can just find anyone you want whenever you want then you kind of break much of the plot of the books.

 

Does that explain how she managed to pass through two areas that had been filled with hundreds of Trollocs though, Trollocs that it's been established were also looking for her (in the books they weren't looking for her and the Fade was still unsure where the group was prior to them meeting up with Nynaeve). Combine that with the show making it clear that the Trollocs can keep finding the group for unexplained reasons (and therefore should be able to find her) and it becomes almost comical in how silly the situation is.

 

What did happen to those hundreds of Trollocs outside Shadar Logoth anyway. In the books it was made clear they were eventually forced into the city by the Fade which took care of them and gave everyone some peace from the Trollocs for a while. Here they sort of just stand around and when Lan and Moiraine leave the city they're gone for some unexplained reason and Lan seems unconcerned about them, even setting down to rest, even though as far as he knows they should be very close by.

 

It just seems no one really thought things through properly in terms of space and time. 

It's such a basic thing for them to KNOW they have to explain somehow where hundreds of Trollocs went, but no.  They missed it.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Maximillion

[Beidomon]

43 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

"I hate this series. Every character is ruined, the sets are crap, the show runner is a war criminal, and Jordan is rolling over in his grave. But, I will keep watching."

This encapsulates the erudite criticism in this thread.

One of my favorites is that it is too gritty AND is not gritty enough. The unique thing about GoT was not that it was gritty, but that it continuously killed favs. WoT is not like that, book or series. Get over it.

Another is that each character is ruined. They are not naive enough. They have sex! They have miserable family lives! They made a mistake in the middle of a battle for life or death! Oh, the horror. 

Instead, a modest proposal is to accept the series for what it is: an artistic attempt to portray the world of the book, while adding or subtracting elements that fit the vision of the series. Sanderson is a producer as GRRM was a producer. They are more artistic and knowledgeable guardians than the pipsqueaks herein. 

 

Straw. Men. 

[MaxZorin]

I'm just thankful that nobody sought refuge in the Winespring Inn.

[Ploodie]

36 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

How can people relate to and enjoy watching a character whose schtik is that he's just a really good guy?" 

Nail on the head! This is my problem with about 95% of today's entertainment content in just about every medium. Characters are no longer likable. They all have to be dark and conflicted and morose. There is no joy in media anymore. Wheel of Time has very dark themes, but it also has likable salt-of-the-earth characters. I don't care for any of the mains, except maybe Egwene. Rand is a blank slate and Mat has no mischief to him. What's up with Perrin's wife!? The series is long enough without adding NEW and unnecessary content. 

 

I don't like these characters, so I doubt I'll go much further into the series. Again, this is why I've about completely given up watching movies and TV anymore.

[Ploodie]

Also -I know they want to have big impressive magic effects, but I'm not a fan of being able to see the weaves. From my recollection, only Aes Sedai could see the weaves. They need to do something to clarify this. In the earlier scene when the Red caused the rocky passage to collapse, we didn't see the weaves. It's confusing.

[Deadsy]

I’ve been reading reddit a bit and the non-readers seem to like it (although these are people taking time out to post about the show). But the other comment I’ve seen a few times is that the anal readers are really obnoxious, complaining about every little insignificant thing that isn’t exactly like the books instead of just enjoying it as a show.