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Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)


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All I can say is thank goodness they renewed Season 2 already.  Hopefully they have a crisis summit about these fan complaints and low ratings and fix a lot of the issues for season 2.  Let's just hope they get enough viewers to carry this forward.  And hopefully they listen better to Sanderson's feedback in the future!  Some of the problems you all mention are legitimate and can probably be improved too

 

Also, I'm excited to see the show move forward and develop.  Can't wait to see this episode 6 that Sanderson is talking about.

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Absolutely hated the first 3 episodes. Its so far off the book they might as well have called it anything.

 

  • Perrin married then he kills his blacksmith wife.
  • Mat is now a thief.
  • Abell Cauthon a drunk and a womanizer, his wife a drunk.
  • Egwene and Rand having sex. On the same day the Womans circle deems her a adult.
  • Moiraine and Lan bathing together.
  • Tam a blademaster can not kill 1 trolloc with aid of Rand. Why was only 1 trolloc sent to the al'thor farm
  • Nynaeve able to kill a trolloc 1vs1 with no channeling or even having a weapon before stealing one from the trolloc
  • Nynaeve able to sneak up on Lan. Track him maybe but too get close enough to kill him without him knowing, garbage.
  • Moiraine announcing to the whole village she is aes sedai then spending most of the rest of the episodes as a wounded passenger.
  • Emonds Field looks like a collection of squalid hovels.
  • Shadar Logoth apparently a city with no gate. WTF
  • Mordeth not encountered in Shadar Logoth
  • Thom a thief
  • Whitecloaks recommending Aes Sedai healing. 

Theres other changes as well but these are some of the most egregious. I have little hope that this will improve.

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Not sure yet what I think of the show... On one hand I'm giddy to see WoT on the screen. There were definitely some good scenes so far that moved me. I'll watch every minute of this because well it at least somewhat resembles something I really love. On the other hand I hate all the changes. Maybe I'll realize as the series goes on that they work in their own way, that they'll at least make sense, and I'll give it a chance to change my mind. Maybe some things will prove to even be improvements.

 

But so far I'm definitely not optimistic. I don't think the writing has been very good. Particularly with regards to plotting. The more starry eyed will call many of my complaints nits. Maybe they are. I just think one of the qualities of a good show is that everything or at least most everything makes internal sense. Or at least ends up making sense.  Three episodes in and the list of potentially nonsensical things is starting to pile up and I'm getting concerned that the writers aren't going to address/sort out these things. That they just... aren't very good at wiring this show. I think the problems in this regard are solely due to the changes... The books weren't perfect, but overall Jordan plotted extremely well. The series writing so far feels more like fanfic, with the things changed seeming to have not been thought through. Still hoping this will be proven wrong. We'll see. It's especially concerning because they didn't have  to make these changes. They weren't just to translate things to a new medium. They thought it would make the show better in some way, I assume. So they made these changes, and I really want the show to be good... I want them thought through, like Jordan did with his story.

 

Some very few examples (way too many to list them all):

The children of the light being changed to be a more threatening force... murdering Aes Sedai. Valda had a trophy kill collection of maybe 6 or 7 rings? I'm assuming we'll learn at some point how that's even possible. But more than that, that's open warfare against the tower. How has one of these forces not yet annihilated the other? Maybe this is a new development on the part of the Children? (If so, why?) And if they are that direct about hunting out Aes Sedai (such as the scene between Valda and Moiraine), why not just ask? "Yes or no, are you an Aes Sedai?" There is a reason Jordan didn't plot the conflict between them to be so... direct. 

 

Moiraine and her "rumors of four ta'veren" in the Two Rivers... What? Really? There's just rumors of four ta'veren floating around from village to village that somehow make their way to Moiraine? That seems it would be news to the four subjects of the rumors and so it seems especially strange... Rand and company sure seem to just be mostly normal unremarkable folks like everyone else in their village as presented to us in he first episode. So what's up with these rumors? How were they started? Why? Is this going to be explained? It hurt my ears a bit when Moiraine said it, so I chose to ignore it in the interest of enjoying the show. But then they highlighted it by replaying it in the recap/intro of the next episode.

 

Perrin accidentally killing his wife... Wow, I can't even imagine the long term emotional repercussions. They throw that explosive event in and then Perrin is just dropping her body off at the bring out your dead cart and heading out on his way. This seems like an absolute soul destroying event to me... How will he ever recover from that? Have the writers really thought this through? Do I want to even see that story when they don't have enough time to cover things as it is? Why couldn't they have skipped the having a wife thing entirely and just had him accidentally kill some other random Two Rivers person if they felt his characterization needed this when translated to the screen? Seems to me that would have totally covered the "not wanting to use the axe" thing, and have the right amount of personal trauma.

 

In that vein, apart from the plot concerns, I just don't really like what they've done to many of the characters. Haven't they made them generally... just kind of worse? Perrin is an unfortunate wife killer. Mat is now a thief. Thom wasn't even very likeable when being introduced. I'm still not sure if he is at all likable even after the Aiel burial scene.

 

Lots of scenes I was generally uninterested in that they invented at the expense of scenes I'd have preferred to see, and that were important to the book plots. Nixed fever dream Tam (maybe that will be in a flashback?) Egwene coming of age cliff dunking? Meh. And changed scenes... Nynaeve totally got the drop on Lan. Like could have killed him. Seeing the full scene didn't soften anything for me... So is Lan that much less capable in this telling or is Nynaeve some kind of super tracking secret ninja assassin?

 

The acting has been passable, but I'm not really loving any of the cast thus far. I like the actor's portrayal of Mat. Nynaeve, while very different from the character in the books, seems acted fairly well. The rest all seem very flat to me. I'm flabbergasted at how many people have been saying how much these actors bring the characters from the books to life for them. So far most of the actors all seem rather generic/swappable to me. De gustibus non est disputandem. Well, hopefully with more episodes my mind will be changed.

 

And despite all that, I still enjoyed the first three episodes overall. I'm excited for more. Just really disappointed too that it's definitely not as good so far as it could (should) have been. Even with it being so different from the books.

Edited by Jackdaw_Fool
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1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

Ratings on IMDb are picking up fast. 7,6/10 is pretty much in line with the first three episodes IMO even though I liked them a LOT. I suppose many of those 10/10 are just to balance the absurd amount of 1/10.

 

Screenshot_20211120-100652.thumb.jpg.f413aee56ad9d14902ce72c28d348b1b.jpg

It was 8.4 when i first checked it. It is dropping 

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6 hours ago, Starganderfish said:

Awkward yes, compelling I’m not so sure. As a book fan I’ll continue to watch and hope for better but I’m certainly not compelled. I may even just switch off for a month or two and tune back in when the whole seasons out and binge the rest. 
And I seriously question whether a non-WoT fan will feel at all Compelled to keep tuning in.
Consider other epic/big budget shows like BSG, GoT, Witcher, the Boys. Most if not all were a lot more engaging three episodes in. Gone are the days of 20 episode seasons when a shaky start can still be overcome. We are just shy of halfway through the first season and the consensus from critics, fans and new viewers is basically “meh, it’s okay.”
That doesn’t bode well when your boss has forked out untold millions for rights and per episode costs hoping for the next GoT - ending up with the next Legend of the Seeker doesn’t look great. 

I mean you might not find it compelling, and that's fine, however many folk who have watched it with non-book people have said that they enjoyed it and has someone who has known these books for a long time I found the beats in this show compelling enough. Definitely could have been better but not bad at all really

 

Also- having just finished watching GoT season 1 a couple of days ago the first three episodes don't size up badly to at all, especially when you consider GoT is very much a TV book while Eye and most of all the WoT volumes have a more movie feel to them. Seriously folks- GoT season 1 was not some marvel. It wasn't until 2 or 3 when they really started nailing it and that is mostly the standard for most tv shows. 

 

Personally I expect that it will remain somewhat uneven while getting better as they keep shedding exposition until they get through Eye- Hunt is a much smoother, less breakneck paced book with one of one of the better finales. Will adapting Eye end up hurting the the continued success of the product? Could be, but it remains in the realm of speculation rather than certainty

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3 hours ago, TheMountain said:

As someone who has generally liked what I've seen of the show so far, I strongly disagree that the changes are purely "necessary for translation to a visual medium." The changes definitely go way beyond that, this shouldn't constantly be paraded out as the defense for every change.

I get where you're coming from, the seemingly unnecessary changes in GoT was a constant thorn in my foot.

In a way, the more sweeping changes here help, though. It's not so close to the original that any minor change really stands out. It really is a different turn of the Wheel, and that both helps with the story feeling fresh and avoids too close comparison with the books, IMO.

And despite pacing issues (especially in ep. 1), I think they nailed the feel of the books, which was a pleasant surprise.

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1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

It has been around the 7,6 for the last ~1k votes. It was over 9 at the beginning and that's way too much

 

It's better to ignore the 10/10s and the 1/10s

 

The other way of looking at it is as an Net Promoter Score, which is the percent of those scoring 9&10 minus those scoring 1-6.

 

That gives a NPS of 36.28, which is very good.

 

Averages for a show like this are problematic - because of the genre and also the impact of the book and reactions to changes.

 

 

 

Edited by Maximillion
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https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/qy2r52/some_thoughts_from_brandon_episode_two/

 

 

Quote

The title is a little bit of a lie. Because I'm going to do more Episode One first.

 

I finally saw the finished product tonight--on the big screen, in 4k, with an atmos sound system. ? I knew that some of my larger suggestions had been adopted, but I was thrilled to see some of the smaller things I'd wanted also got adopted.

 

As an example of some of the things I've been saying: I really leaned hard into the idea that Lan needed to protect Moiraine more in the fighting. And there it was--him stopping trolloc after trolloc from reaching her. I even suggested that he dive over her to protect her from the collapsing building...and lo and behold, that exact moment was added to the finished product. It instantly became my second favorite scene of the episode. (Tam with the sword was my favorite.)

 

I have to admit, the Perrin-kills-his-wife scene turned out really well. The acting was solid, the way the shot was composed, and the gut punch (gut axe?) was solidly delivered to the audience. People in my showing gasped. So while I am still on the side of "this would have worked better with Master Luhhan," I can't really complain about how well the scene worked. And I did ask Rafe to make sure he at least played up the berzerker angle of Perrin here, and I was glad to see that working.

 

So, on to Episode Two. This one had more changes between draft and finished product than Episode One had, but Rafe had warned me it would be.

 

I can talk a little about the behind the scenes here, relating to things I had a hand in. But I won't go into detail. Just as I prefer my beta readers not cut and paste quotes from early drafts for the public, I am not going to spend a lot of time on details of what was changed between drafts of these screenplays, particularly if I didn't have a hand in it. I don't think it's my place; this isn't my writing, but of the WoT television team. Much of this isn't my content to share, and I want to respect their ownership of their storytelling.

If scripts ever do get released officially, then perhaps I can say more there. For now, I really just want to give personal reactions and talk about things that I specifically wanted to see in this episode, and how they panned out.

 

One thing I'd requested was more time with the characters, and I was very happy to see that. I really enjoyed the visuals in Shadar Logoth, and the moment between Rand and Egwene looking out was probably my favorite moment in this particular episode.

 

My most relevant lore contribution here probably involved pointing out some Three Oaths issues, and having Rafe go talk to Team Jordan to sort them out. Those are tricky to navigate. For example, it's all right to have a whirlpool made by Moiraine suck down the ferry after Hightower jumped in and swam to it, particularly if she has stopped channeling. It's not okay, though, for her to sink that ferry with lightning while he's on it--even if he's bringing it toward the trollocs, which will put her in danger.

To a lot of writers, those two things would seem very similar, but I'm hyper-sensitive to the three oaths after my tenure on the books. The solution Rafe and I hashed out after he'd talked to Maria works well enough, I think. (Sorry to any Hightower fans for his fate. Are there Hightower fans? I mean, there are fans of everything, so I assume so.)

 

Most everything I did in this one was small tweaks like this. Some Lan characterization requests (which were taken) and some tweaks to the Whitecloak encounter. (Which were also taken.)

 

Most if it is small, subtle tone sorts of things. And a few larger requests that he was already planning to change anyway, so I won't go into them here. Though, comparing the screenplay to the finished product, they listened to me a lot on this episode. I hope I didn't overwhelm them.

 

By the time I had reached this episode in my reading, I'd already cemented in my mind my personal canon that this is a completely different turning of the wheel from the books. That helped me focus on helping the story be the best version of what Rafe wanted to make, rather than fixating on whether each scene should be replaced with one more directly from the books. (Though...I still tend to do a lot of requesting scenes be nudged closer to book ones in my feedback, even if I know that isn't the way this adaptation needs to happen.

 

Someone has to look out for you guys. Note that if you are curious WHY this adaptation isn't quite as "straight from the books" as you might like, I go into it here and here.)

 

p.s. I read some people complaining about effects. I thought they ranged from fine to great. Those trollocs are really wonderful. In fact, I had lunch with some of them when I visited the Two Rivers two years back, and they were perfectly pleasant to me. Don't know why they were so interested in killing everyone in this episode. Maybe craft services ran out of donuts

 

 

Here's the stuff linked at the end of that post.

 

 

 

 

 

I find those encouraging.

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4 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Hopefully those will just stop watching and torturing themselves and go somewehere else. Would be nice to discuss the positive things for a change.

I am probably going to give it first season and then decide.  I will definitely by reducing posting here if I don't like it.  My issue is that I was really excited for series.  I took time off from work.  Set up a watch party with kids and planned on  spending lots of time chewing on tv show like I did the book series since 1991.  

 

I was perfectly fine with major changes in adaption, understand the constraints of medium, and love the cast.  I am putting my disappointment squarely on showrumners ,  editors, and writers.  If there is a giant turn around I will be incredibly happy.  I am glad people are enjoying it.  I almost wrote a giant rant to vent some frustration but didn't want to ruin other people's experience.

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So 10 of my friends who have never read the books and where intrigued have told me they will not be continuing to watch and they will never be picking up the books based on the first 3 episodes. This is anecdotal but I feel the TV show so far has done far far more harm than realised to the legacy of the series. 

 

There are some good bits, the subtle difference of Rands hair and skin tone to the rest of the 2 rivers folk and then foreshadowing by having the dead Aiel match was good, and something that a visual medium can do much better subtly. 

 

But the dialogue and pacing and acting are just sub par. I like the changes to Matt, it gives more depth, but the Trollocs looked poor in some scenes. I would be shocked if we get more then 3 seasons of this out of Amazon and that is the travesty a bad telling of the wheel of time that never gets completed. 

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It doesn't feel like the Wheel of Time for me. Here are some major issues that I have:

 

- The series has missed out a major aspect of the characters. They are all enamoured with the stories of old, and how legendary and glorious they are. They are naïve and discover that the reality is far more terrifying and nothing like those tales.

 

- The Dragon Reborn is never established as a feared entity on par with the Forsaken. In fact, Moiraine just stating one of you is the Dragon Reborn makes it seem completely normal. The group don't seem bothered about the accusation at all, despite it meaning one of the men could be a male channeler.

 

- Missing the prologue out is a massive shame. I feel it is great at demonstrating the madness that male channelers need to deal with. The medium of a tv-series of film will mean it is easy to understand what is going on. And, since they want dark gritty, what could be more dark and gritty that a man driven mad to a point where he kills his entire family?

 

- The choice of skipping out Baerlon means the world seems completely devoid of life. The world seems flat and barren as most of the shots have been tiny villages with about five people in them or empty plains.

 

Pointless and weird changes

- Thom Merilyn has been turned into a cowboy. What is with the cowboy music every he walks? And why is he using an acoustic guitar? It doesn't fit in with the time at all.  

 

- Perrin's wife. What is the point? She seems to be a mute and has no real interactions with her husband other than to have his axe through her side. It was a laughably bad. 

 

- Egewene being a candidate for the Dragon reborn undermines the idea of him being a greatly feared being. It is also a pointless change that adds nothing to the story. There were already three candidates, which was plenty. 

 

- Matt's parents could have been cut out entirely. I would have far preferred that to what they did in this series. It wasn't needed and has changed his character. In the books, he is a man who tries to shirk his responsibilities. He is trying to have fun in his life. That is not the case in the tv series.

 

It feels really lacking to me. It just seems like a bunch of people wandering around a barren land in the first three episodes. The world has no life in the tv series.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by WOTReader2
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Well Folks, sorry to say, but I won't be able to stomach watching the rest of this mess. I was REALLY looking forward to it! IMO, they've taken "poetic license" way too far. I believe that Jim would be disgusted with how they raped his work in order to make his world (which he created) fit into "their world." There is practically nothing (in episode 1) that lines up with the foundations established in EOTW. Even having read the series about ten times, it was hard to follow. The "special effects" are horrible. I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression that one of the directors for the (awful) Shannara series was involved. If so, that would explain a lot. So, I won't be watching the rest of this utter mess of a production. I give it a 1/2 star out of 10. Yes, that bad. I only gave that 1/2 star because they managed to get some names right.

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1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

You wouldn't be the first one and unpleasant messages can just be skipped when reading. I wrote my earlier comment to vent my own frustration with some of the negativity towards the show lol.

 

The negativity is for a reason, though.

What it should tell you is that many WoT fans are disappointed with what has been produced.

Your angst should be towards Rafe.

 

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1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

 

The negativity is for a reason, though.

What it should tell you is that many WoT fans are disappointed with what has been produced.

Your angst should be towards Rafe.

 

I think I've said elsewhere that negativity that can be explained is fine but saying for example that the show has nothing in common to the books is just pointless because it's not factually true. I hope that the show gets so good by the end of the season that those with highly negative opinion will give it another chance. We'll see.

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6 hours ago, flinn said:

 yep I said the same thing in a comment somewhere on here. She is literally laid out on a pallet, unburied and he just rides away. I understand the circumstances, but it didnt have to be that way at all. Just sucks and I wont be able to shake the "he killed his wife" the entire series, so how could he be able to? How the hell could he even fall in love with Faile in the limited time frame after killing his wife. Way too messed up.

to be fair, they are leaving the town as trollocs decend from the mountains, closing in, he has no time for a funeral pyre.....

 

that said, the leaving and the reason they had to go was very underdone, i hope they dont mess other things up as badly.

 

 

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100% in agreement, there was no need to try to imply the dragon reborn is a girl. I understand things weren't going to be exact, but this is asinine. As for Perrin having a wife then killing her, I believe they are giving a reason for Perrin's internal struggle of being comfortable using weapons...his injury is going to portray his being able to interact with wolves, vs meeting Elias and his eyes just changing. So I can roll with that. Matt coming from a shoddy family background meh whatever. Nynaeve not tugging her braid is not okay for me. It made her loveable for all her hardness. Her struggle with being able to control her emotions was a funny part on the book series. Have great moments of humor and real moments of oh crap danger moments..also they better not be implying that Moraine and Lan are in a relationship beyond just friends by the stupid bath scene. They were not in Shienar and that scene was asinine. Seems like they want to give a different reason for Nynaeves dislike of Moraine by this. Moraine not being able to heal herself and being weak and potentially dying is  complete bs, her character is infallible so what happens to her later in the book series is a even bigger wow moment. Making her weak like this is ruining that future moment. If it even happens in the series...

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59 minutes ago, WOTReader2 said:

- The choice of skipping out Baerlon means the world seems completely devoid of life. The world seems flat and barren as most of the shots have been tiny villages with about five people in them or empty plains.

 

This has bothered me a bit too. I imagined much more forests and lushness on the journey from Two Rivers to Shadar Logoth and beyond. Especially the third episode with Perrin & Egwene walking on what looks like treeless tundra and Mat & Rand on a mountain range that mostly brings to mind Frodo & Sam on their way to Mordor. I think a forest with fields here and there would make for a more intimate scenery. 

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It'd be nice if we saw more cities, even small ones like Baerlon. The world of WOT is a world in decay. Formerly settled lands and kingdoms abandoned. So there is a sort of emptiness. Perrin and Egwene were crossing the Caralain grasslands, which are large unsettled plains, though with a few copse of trees here and there. In the books winter is still hanging on, refusing to go.

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I’ve watched E1-3 twice now. I was hoping things would get better my second time through. It’s actually getting worse. Kinda like how I walked out of Phantom Menace just excited to have finally seen a new SW movie, and then noticing how bad it was on repeated viewings. 
 

The casting of the main actors was great! Their acting is top notch. And the magic effects work great, too. That’s two big concerns addressed. 
 

But my biggest complaint is the overall look. The landscape visuals are stunningly beautiful, but the minute you insert people or sets into any sort of wide and daylight view (I’m sorry - I don’t know cinematography language) - they look like sets.

 

Just for example in E3, the tinker camp (yes I know Tinkers are colorful, but still looks like a set), the village (basically every damned thing in the village), the bar, the forest where Nynaeve is healing Moiraine (that’s some beautiful green moss you got there). You can practically see the mist makers tucked under the leaves.
 

The production feels cheap and staged. It looks and feels YA. CW. I’m not talking content when I say that - I’m talking the look. Maybe it has to do with @WOTReader2 said about things looking too empty? I don’t know why it looks that way - it just does. Is it a director issue?

 

Some of the writing and dialogue is just terrible. The darkfriend scene was important, but just felt incredibly cheesy. Her monologue was awful. Again - YA as all hell. There is nothing like that in the first 5 seasons of GOT. Yes, I’m going to make the comparison because GOT is the new benchmark and WOTTV is FAILING.

 

I’m not trying to hurt anybody’s feelings or annoy anybody or troll them, but Amazon needs to fix this!!!! This production is several grades below GOT quality. The music sucks, too. Nothing memorable. It is all just CIS-level “ominous tones.” I can’t believe that this is what Amazon is getting for 10mil an episode.

 

And finally - “the mystery of the DR” - the reason they’ve been making these changes to the lore and the focus in the episodes - isn’t a mystery at all! Just 3 episodes in, you’d have to be a complete idiot to not know who the DR is. What was the point?! PR. “Modern Sensibilities.”

 

I’m going to watch through the end of S1 but damn this is getting worse not better. And I already know I’ve got “arrow scene” coming up in E4. 

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12 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

Some of the writing and dialogue is just terrible. The darkfriend scene was important, but just felt incredibly cheesy. Her monologue was awful. Again - YA as all hell. There is nothing like that in the first 5 seasons of GOT. Yes, I’m going to make the comparison because GOT is the new benchmark and WOTTV is FAILING.

Well said. If Amazon wanted their own GOT, then this is an utter fail. I'm trying to watch a bit more, and it just keeps getting worse. IMO, the only way to salvage this mess is to suspend the series now and get a real director (perhaps of del Toro caliber) to bring life to series. Otherwise, Amazon has just thrown it's money away and has also made it highly unlikely that anyone will ever try to make this series into something good in the future. The entire "spirit" of the series is completely absent.

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