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Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)


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25 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:
Perrin killing his wife then going off on an adventure really bothers me, even still. I have faith that the writers won't treat it lightly, but still. That kind of trauma, dealt with realistically and responsibly, is really difficult for an adventure series to deal with.

 

 

This is exactly what I was thinking about it too. I mean they don't even have time to bury her

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Felt rushed and jumbled missing key stops in the journey (Min) and not giving adequate time for character development. Also, why use American swear words when they can say "blood and bloody ashes". I don't see this version of Thom doing flips all over the place but I also hope that they don't give him a limp.

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14 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I love it so far

I remember a review of Revenge of the Sith I read one time that said something like, "Revenge of the Sith is uneven, but the strength of its mythos carries it home." As a WoT fan, I'll admit that my lizard brain jumped a few times when watching, but it was only because what I was seeing had reminded me of something from the books that I liked much, much better.

 

There are so many gaps in this show that our fan brains just fill in because we have this massive reservoir of prior knowledge about the world and characters. For someone who hasn't read the books, it's going to be absolutely incomprehensible at worst and generic fantasy at best. I honestly can't believe that Rafe got paid to write that first episode. 

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10 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

For someone who hasn't read the books, it's going to be absolutely incomprehensible at worst and generic fantasy at best.

Tell that to the newcomers who loved the episodes and could keep up with them. This forum has several examples of users' friends/relatives/partners like that.

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I do agree that with "Agents of Shield" as the main experience on his resume, we were probably never going to get a masterpiece. I think it could have been A LOT worse though.

 

I think it has the makings of good show. Not amazing, but good. The question is whether "good" is enough for Amazon to continue to justify $10 million per episode. 

Edited by TheMountain
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1 hour ago, swollymammoth said:

Guys, the show isn't good. It's... it's not good. So many terrible, inexcusable decisions. It would take me 10,000 words at least to talk about these first three episodes alone, but the biggest complaint of mine is just wasted time. In a series which has to adapt an 800 page book into 8 episodes, there is SO much wasted time, and the direct result of this is that the characters and worldbuilding are - for the most part- hung out to dry. Just too bad. I honestly couldn't believe a professional writer turned in that script for episode 1. Like, if I'd have known that the bar was set so low, I wouldn't have just applied to law school. 

My wife and I seem to be loving it, although admittedly she hasn't read the books as of yet.

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3 hours ago, SingleMort said:

The lack of scenes between Tam and Rand seem like a missed opportunity. I mean it might be years before we see Tam again now. 

i m ight be wrong, but im assuming Tam has a bigger role in the TV adaptation, based solely on the actor playing him...cant see him signing up for ten minutes screen time

 

not an exact science....but yknow what i mean

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If this was written for just readers (especially re-readers) of the series then I would be very disappointed.  Given the audience I thought it was a great adaptation and instead of just looking forward to seeing my favorite parts put into video, now I also get some surprises as well.  The major complaints I have have been stated here.  

 

I was disappointed with the channeling - not the results of it (that was cool!) - but the presentation of the One Power.  I know it's a lot to ask for the weaving component of the multiple elements but even just adding colors would help differentiate Nynaeve's healing from the others.  How was earth and air the same color?

 

I just gotta say the trollocs were superbly done.  They were diverse, terrifying (both sight and sound) and demonstrated a unique new menace to the fantasy world.

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I am left with a couple questions...

  1. What is Thom's motive to help the boys?  In the books, it was because of their "entanglement" with Aes Sedai and the history of Thom's nephew.  He wanted to help the boys get away from Moiraine.  Why help now, especially if he heard what that dark friend said?
  2. Episode 1 intro scene - I did not get much from this the first time.  I started to watch the episode again and it got me to wondering something.  Do you think this is how they will portray LT in Rand's head later in the series?
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WoT WTF List: Episode 1 

 

1. The opening with Logain. That was it? The thing where there's two guys but there's really only one is neat, but seriously, can anyone tell me why that scene is there? What information did it communicate that Moiraine's opening monologue didn't already tell us? Women use magic, men who 

2. Egwene's Women's Circle initiation. Literally who cares? Also, I'm supposed to believe that in this Emond's Field, Egwene (who is like 20) is a member of the governing body of women in the town? Why? Nynaeve is wisdom despite her youth because she was a wisdom's apprentice and then her master died. What has Egwene done to be elevated to this position of respect? Is this supposed to be a believable world? Because if it is, then Egwene should still be seen as a young woman and not as someone whose life experience has warrented them a place of influence in the community. 

3. I can't believe no one has talked about the scene where Nynaeve and Moiraine talk at that "sacred" pool. WTF was that? That is terrible writing. The pool is of no consequence whatsoever. Rafe had to fit so much into this first episode and what did he do? He cut important character scenes (like Rand hauling his father back) and put in bogus extra scenes like this that serve no purpose but to eliminate Nynaeve from DR consideration which she never should have been a part of in the first place. 

4. Nynaeve getting kidnapped. Pointless. Totally pointless and inconsequential. Nynaeve's capacity as a strong, independent woman is established in the scene where she sneaks up on Lan. That is a greater accomplishment than killing a pair of disposable trollocs, and so all this did was waste time and reinforce something that didn't need it. (Remember, they need to adapt 800 pages into 8 episodes. They don't have time to waste on this kind of stuff, but they did it anyway) 

5. I'm pretty sure we never seen Tam give Rand the heron marked sword. That should have been a huge moment for his character, and instead (if it happened) it was so quick that I didn't even notice it. And I know that I'm not the only one because I saw someone else on this forum complain about it too. 

6. Who in their right mind thought that it would be a good idea to split a single 50 minute episode between five different viewpoints? What's that Bilbo Baggins line? "I feel like butter spread across too much bread." That's exactly what this is, and it's 100% for the sake of the "mystery." Script would have been much tighter if they'd focused their time on Rand and Egwene. 

7. Nynaeve's characterization as someone who distrusts Aes Sedai because of some stupid backstory with her master. She already had a reason! She is fiercely protective of the Emond's Fielders and takes her job as Wisdom seriously, so when Moiraine takes them away, she goes after them out of a sense of responsibility but then must grapple with the fact that she's actually not as helpful as she thinks she is. Notice how one of those actually tells us about Nynaeve and serves to deepen her character and tie into her core trait as a healer/protector? Rafe sure didn't! 

8. Padan Fain showing up and literally nobody cares. Like, they didn't even bother to characterize Emond's Field at all. Just having that cart get rushed by excited kids tells us so much about the setting. But nah. Who cares? Like, when Frodo leaves the Shire in LotR, it's a big deal because we've seen the idyllic life it represents. We've spent time there and we have a feel for regular life. That way, the Shire can serve as an anchor point during their adventures. Emond's Field functions the same way. This is Hero's Journey storytelling 101, and they screwed it up. 

9. Mat's sisters. Now, here's the thing, I actually liked the Mat stuff. If this were any other show, I'd say good job. But literally how are they going to handle this is the long run? He's just left his sisters with his crackpot parents. In the short term, this provides drama, but in the long term, it's going to give them fits when it comes to adapting Mat's arc. So, so short-sighted. 

 

Episode 1 is a legitimate 3/10. 

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53 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Tell that to the newcomers who loved the episodes and could keep up with them.

I will, and I'll tell them to get better taste so that big corporations will stop creating products geared towards a lowest common denominator audience member who is gonna watch anything so long as there's magic and swords. 

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19 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

WoT WTF List: Episode 1 

 

1. The opening with Logain. That was it? The thing where there's two guys but there's really only one is neat, but seriously, can anyone tell me why that scene is there? What information did it communicate that Moiraine's opening monologue didn't already tell us? Women use magic, men who 

2. Egwene's Women's Circle initiation. Literally who cares? Also, I'm supposed to believe that in this Emond's Field, Egwene (who is like 20) is a member of the governing body of women in the town? Why? Nynaeve is wisdom despite her youth because she was a wisdom's apprentice and then her master died. What has Egwene done to be elevated to this position of respect? Is this supposed to be a believable world? Because if it is, then Egwene should still be seen as a young woman and not as someone whose life experience has warrented them a place of influence in the community. 

3. I can't believe no one has talked about the scene where Nynaeve and Moiraine talk at that "sacred" pool. WTF was that? That is terrible writing. The pool is of no consequence whatsoever. Rafe had to fit so much into this first episode and what did he do? He cut important character scenes (like Rand hauling his father back) and put in bogus extra scenes like this that serve no purpose but to eliminate Nynaeve from DR consideration which she never should have been a part of in the first place. 

4. Nynaeve getting kidnapped. Pointless. Totally pointless and inconsequential. Nynaeve's capacity as a strong, independent woman is established in the scene where she sneaks up on Lan. That is a greater accomplishment than killing a pair of disposable trollocs, and so all this did was waste time and reinforce something that didn't need it. (Remember, they need to adapt 800 pages into 8 episodes. They don't have time to waste on this kind of stuff, but they did it anyway) 

5. I'm pretty sure we never seen Tam give Rand the heron marked sword. That should have been a huge moment for his character, and instead (if it happened) it was so quick that I didn't even notice it. And I know that I'm not the only one because I saw someone else on this forum complain about it too. 

6. Who in their right mind thought that it would be a good idea to split a single 50 minute episode between five different viewpoints? What's that Bilbo Baggins line? "I feel like butter spread across too much bread." That's exactly what this is, and it's 100% for the sake of the "mystery." Script would have been much tighter if they'd focused their time on Rand and Egwene. 

7. Nynaeve's characterization as someone who distrusts Aes Sedai because of some stupid backstory with her master. She already had a reason! She is fiercely protective of the Emond's Fielders and takes her job as Wisdom seriously, so when Moiraine takes them away, she goes after them out of a sense of responsibility but then must grapple with the fact that she's actually not as helpful as she thinks she is. Notice how one of those actually tells us about Nynaeve and serves to deepen her character and tie into her core trait as a healer/protector? Rafe sure didn't! 

8. Padan Fain showing up and literally nobody cares. Like, they didn't even bother to characterize Emond's Field at all. Just having that cart get rushed by excited kids tells us so much about the setting. But nah. Who cares? Like, when Frodo leaves the Shire in LotR, it's a big deal because we've seen the idyllic life it represents. We've spent time there and we have a feel for regular life. That way, the Shire can serve as an anchor point during their adventures. Emond's Field functions the same way. This is Hero's Journey storytelling 101, and they screwed it up. 

9. Mat's sisters. Now, here's the thing, I actually liked the Mat stuff. If this were any other show, I'd say good job. But literally how are they going to handle this is the long run? He's just left his sisters with his crackpot parents. In the short term, this provides drama, but in the long term, it's going to give them fits when it comes to adapting Mat's arc. So, so short-sighted. 

 

Episode 1 is a legitimate 3/10. 

1) the Logain scene I suspect is there to introduce us to the idea of the madness and how Rand will get LTT “in his head”

2) the women’s circle now seems to just be “all the women” not the women’s council. Seriously, can you imagine how the actual Women’s Circle from the books would react to the whole sorority initiation of throwing Egwene off a cliff? That’s the sort of thing they’d be rolling eyes and tugging braids at. 
3) yep. Nynaeve scrubbing a rock while she bitched about how Aes Sedai rejected her mentor for being poor? What a waste of time. 
4) Nynaeve is kind of a pointless character outside of her being the most powerful, the healing thing and the Lan thing. If they felt that Perrin needed to fridge a wife to make him more relevant, can you imagine what they had to do to make Nynaeve interesting?

5) yep, the sword is completely glossed over. 
6) the character building suffers because they have to keep up the mystery of “who is the Dragon?”Pointless really. Even non-book watchers will probably have worked that out before the show even launched. 
7) see point 4 about trying to make Nynaeve interesting. 
8 ) I liked Fain but the pace and cramming so much in meant he got no real intro. The scene where he’s gleefully watching the battle helped to cement his character though

9) yep, they destroyed Matt’s family because they couldn’t make him a scoundrel with a heart of gold without some over the top abusive parents and guilt over abandoning his sisters. It’s the same reason they had Perrin fridge a made-up wife - “character building”!! 
I was surprised to see Sanderson being honest given his position as Exec producer but from what he’s saying that seems like it’s just a screen credit and his opinions carry zero weight with the show runner. Shame really. Ignore the advice of the only surviving author of the series who’s a best-selling author in his own right, in favour of a guy who worked on Agents of Shield. Right. 

Edited by Starganderfish
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The fact that the Dragon could be man or woman is a nod to modern equality, but it undercuts the book theme, also shown, that the unusual thing about the Dragon, is that he is a male channeler. The false Dragon (Logain?) is shown earlier as being captured, and injured in the book. It's not a fatal deviation, but one wonders why Sanderson went along.

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42 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

WoT WTF List: Episode 1 

 

1. The opening with Logain. That was it? The thing where there's two guys but there's really only one is neat, but seriously, can anyone tell me why that scene is there? What information did it communicate that Moiraine's opening monologue didn't already tell us? Women use magic, men who 

2. Egwene's Women's Circle initiation. Literally who cares? Also, I'm supposed to believe that in this Emond's Field, Egwene (who is like 20) is a member of the governing body of women in the town? Why? Nynaeve is wisdom despite her youth because she was a wisdom's apprentice and then her master died. What has Egwene done to be elevated to this position of respect? Is this supposed to be a believable world? Because if it is, then Egwene should still be seen as a young woman and not as someone whose life experience has warrented them a place of influence in the community. 

3. I can't believe no one has talked about the scene where Nynaeve and Moiraine talk at that "sacred" pool. WTF was that? That is terrible writing. The pool is of no consequence whatsoever. Rafe had to fit so much into this first episode and what did he do? He cut important character scenes (like Rand hauling his father back) and put in bogus extra scenes like this that serve no purpose but to eliminate Nynaeve from DR consideration which she never should have been a part of in the first place. 

4. Nynaeve getting kidnapped. Pointless. Totally pointless and inconsequential. Nynaeve's capacity as a strong, independent woman is established in the scene where she sneaks up on Lan. That is a greater accomplishment than killing a pair of disposable trollocs, and so all this did was waste time and reinforce something that didn't need it. (Remember, they need to adapt 800 pages into 8 episodes. They don't have time to waste on this kind of stuff, but they did it anyway) 

5. I'm pretty sure we never seen Tam give Rand the heron marked sword. That should have been a huge moment for his character, and instead (if it happened) it was so quick that I didn't even notice it. And I know that I'm not the only one because I saw someone else on this forum complain about it too. 

6. Who in their right mind thought that it would be a good idea to split a single 50 minute episode between five different viewpoints? What's that Bilbo Baggins line? "I feel like butter spread across too much bread." That's exactly what this is, and it's 100% for the sake of the "mystery." Script would have been much tighter if they'd focused their time on Rand and Egwene. 

7. Nynaeve's characterization as someone who distrusts Aes Sedai because of some stupid backstory with her master. She already had a reason! She is fiercely protective of the Emond's Fielders and takes her job as Wisdom seriously, so when Moiraine takes them away, she goes after them out of a sense of responsibility but then must grapple with the fact that she's actually not as helpful as she thinks she is. Notice how one of those actually tells us about Nynaeve and serves to deepen her character and tie into her core trait as a healer/protector? Rafe sure didn't! 

8. Padan Fain showing up and literally nobody cares. Like, they didn't even bother to characterize Emond's Field at all. Just having that cart get rushed by excited kids tells us so much about the setting. But nah. Who cares? Like, when Frodo leaves the Shire in LotR, it's a big deal because we've seen the idyllic life it represents. We've spent time there and we have a feel for regular life. That way, the Shire can serve as an anchor point during their adventures. Emond's Field functions the same way. This is Hero's Journey storytelling 101, and they screwed it up. 

9. Mat's sisters. Now, here's the thing, I actually liked the Mat stuff. If this were any other show, I'd say good job. But literally how are they going to handle this is the long run? He's just left his sisters with his crackpot parents. In the short term, this provides drama, but in the long term, it's going to give them fits when it comes to adapting Mat's arc. So, so short-sighted. 

 

Episode 1 is a legitimate 3/10. 

I pretty much agree with all of that.  The shows did get a little bit better as it continued.  Not by a whole lot but still better.

 

One thing I don't understand is how (if when) Nyn will reveal to Lan how she tracked him.  Moiraine says at that stupid pool scene that she was brought by the previous Wisdom from somewhere else (another change, pretty sure she was born there) as a baby when she learned tracking by her Father in the books before he died when she was younger.

Edited by Zaladane
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12 minutes ago, Starganderfish said:

1) the Logain scene I suspect is there to introduce us to the idea of the madness and how Rand will get LTT “in his head”

2) the women’s circle now seems to just be “all the women” not the women’s council. Seriously, can you imagine how the actual Women’s Circle from the books would react to the whole sorority initiation of throwing Egwene off a cliff? That’s the sort of thing they’d be rolling eyes and tugging braids at. 

I think both of these scenes are kind of emblematic of my problem with the show so far. It's not a problem that entering the Women's Circle is merged with the braid thing as a right of passage into becoming a woman, and the Logain scene was fine in execution. Alone, neither of these are necessarily bad. 

 

I think it comes down to prioritization. You've only got 50 minutes, and what do they do? They waste sooooooo much time. I just wish they would have prioritized other things. Am I crazy that I wanted more scenes of the characters just talking and hanging out? One of my favorite things about EotW is the way that RJ uses casual conversation to hint at the larger world and lore and set us up for things which will be important later on. 

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Totally disagree. The episode moved from beginning to end. The multiple points of view worked brilliantly when the 6 split into 2s. As in every movie/book discussion there will always be purists who object to the slightest deviation from the book.

Just one response: Padan Fain started innocuously in the book and built his evil. The dagger is his entree.

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2 hours ago, SingleMort said:

This is exactly what I was thinking about it too. I mean they don't even have time to bury her

 yep I said the same thing in a comment somewhere on here. She is literally laid out on a pallet, unburied and he just rides away. I understand the circumstances, but it didnt have to be that way at all. Just sucks and I wont be able to shake the "he killed his wife" the entire series, so how could he be able to? How the hell could he even fall in love with Faile in the limited time frame after killing his wife. Way too messed up.

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Every character has been corrupted... The meticulous character building that Jordan did cannot be replicated onscreen, but they could have kept them closer to the book - for it is the characters we return to. Mat appears to be the closest so far - taking responsibility for his sisters while still having the reputation of being a rascal... Sad... 

 

But the show stands in its own right - if one has not read the books it may be interesting... Just that it is not, for me. 

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5 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Actually this topic seems to be, nitpicking and trashing the series. The casting is excellent and the characters hew to the book as closely as the translation from written to visual medium allows. 

As someone who has generally liked what I've seen of the show so far, I strongly disagree that the changes are purely "necessary for translation to a visual medium." The changes definitely go way beyond that, this shouldn't constantly be paraded out as the defense for every change.

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4 hours ago, Harad the White said:

Actually this topic seems to be, nitpicking and trashing the series.

Hopefully those will just stop watching and torturing themselves and go somewehere else. Would be nice to discuss the positive things for a change.

 

Edit. I apologize for being so harsh. I was frustrated with the overwhelming negativity when I loved the episodes myself.

Edited by DaddyFinn
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