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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

S1E3: A Place of Safety


SinisterDeath
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9 minutes ago, Tim said:

Well if that is the case I will be much happier, given it was only the seeming impossibility of the latter option that bothered me. Does it mean, though, that Ishamael is meant to be much older than the other forsaken? 

Obviously I’ll have to watch again with frequent use of the pause button


Why would you think he’s older? He’s almost certainly lying anyway, since we know LTT never turned to the shadow.

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2 hours ago, Tim said:

Having been unable to make time to post for a week, and hence since I saw the first three episodes, I'm not sure whether it's depressing or amusing to return here only to find people post about stuff like whether Marin had more lines than Bran in episode 1 or whether Dana would be strong enough to run with a sword in episode 3. Seriously, is this what people get worked up over?

 

The thing I was most interested about from Dana's appearance in episode 3 is that her speech to Rand very clearly foreshadows Rand's nadir on Dragonmount, the uselessness of the cycle of being reborn into a world of pain and misery and mistakes - much more directly and precisely and obviously than Ingtar in the books. Ingtar is, I'm pretty sure, the only darkfriend in the books apart from Ishamael and one other (who I won't name in case some readers haven't gotten through all the books, but let's just say that her soul is white) who became a darkfriend for a reason other than some version of either power or immortality or freedom to be bad or all three. And yet here we have, in episode 3, a pretty low-ranking darkfriend who essentially espouses Ishamael's metaphysics and treats him as a kind of Jesus figure. 

 

Contrast that with Tam's speech to Rand in the first episode about the purpose of reincarnation being to do better than last time. I was really surprised that the ultimate moral arc of Rand's journey in the books had been so obviously foregrounded within 3 episodes. I was really hoping there'd be an interesting discussion on here about whether this was good or bad, nuanced or hamfisted, thoughtful or thoughtless. 

 

do think that if the show ever gets to veins of gold we'll see Rand echoing Dana's thoughts (albeit not depicted literally as such) and we'll get (literal) flashbacks to Tam's speech at Bel Tine.

 

Also, Dana thinks Ishamael was an incarnation of the dragon!?! Even as an incorrect belief amongst darkfriends this would be messing with the story way more than Egwene potentially being the DR, but I suspect it's actually supposed to be the case?

 

Doesn't really make sense if Ba'alzamon is Ishamael unless two (or, rather, at least three) instances of the same soul can exist simultaneously? Conversely, if they follow through with it (and deal with the metaphysical issues arising from two instances of the dragon coexisting) I can see the attraction of making Rand / Ishamael even more of mirror-images / counterparts than they are in the books. But I can't say I love the idea until I see how they execute it (and if they can pull it off) - the degree of difficulty seems high.

And yet none of this is commented on here? Tell me that's not because it's not an example of oh noes Rafe once said he is a feminist I'm feeling so emasculated right now and that's the only sort of thing that seems to excite 50% of the contributors?

I returned to WoT forums after 7 years for this kind of speculation, and analysis. 
I thought Dana's infodump and alternative take was interesting, it modernized the  rationale for being on the side of The Dark One, blurring the lines to the more current trend of having more nuance in what is good or evil, as compared to the time of the books where it was a simpler contrast good vs Evil. 
I will wait to see if that ends up being  the more common belief of Darkfriends or if she is one of the few like Ingtar. 
 

Quote

I was really surprised that the ultimate moral arc of Rand's journey in the books had been so obviously foregrounded within 3 episodes.


This was surprising, I feel they really did nail down the arcs of both Rand and Perrin, While I see the character flaws and strengths of Nynaeve, Egwene and Matt have been set up well, I am not sure we have that same foundation, I may see it on re-watch.  

 

1 hour ago, Tim said:

Well if that is the case I will be much happier, given it was only the seeming impossibility of the latter option that bothered me. Does it mean, though, that Ishamael is meant to be much older than the other forsaken? 

Obviously I’ll have to watch again with frequent use of the pause button

I really want transcripts of the shows, I miss so much with on screen media,   It is probably why I rarely watch movies or TV.  

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8 hours ago, Windigo said:

How damp or dry the dirt is in the track tells how long ago also,  the soil underneath would have less moisture than an older the track,  you can also tell if the track was from weight compacts and cuts into dirt  or soft soil squishes.

Very good point.

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45 minutes ago, Windigo said:

I really want transcripts of the shows, I miss so much with on screen media,   It is probably why I rarely watch movies or TV.  

The show has English closed captions. Have you tried that? Did you miss Moiraine whispering "Siuan" in the forest when she was almost unconscious?

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33 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

The show has English closed captions. Have you tried that? Did you miss Moiraine whispering "Siuan" in the forest when she was almost unconscious?

Closed captions are worse, they are too hard to read, and I would need to pause to read them. I did not grow up in a scrolling text world, so my brain struggles with it (same with chat windows).  Part of it is just how I take in or remember information, I remember much better what I read than what I hear. Usually dialogue in movies is difficult because of too loud background music,  but I think they did a great job there.  I also am thrilled it is lighter and not as dark with hard to see details which is so common in many shows. Both of those are reasons I have just stopped watching shows even if they are good, I can only play with the brightness setting so much. 

I caught the Siuan thing only after reading about it and re-watching for the third time.   

Edited to say I have found this transcript: https://tvshowtranscripts.ourboard.org/viewtopic.php?f=1119&t=48056&sid=29227d9a0aa16aea1d5529fe439325c1 
 

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8 minutes ago, Windigo said:

Closed captions are worse, they are too hard to read, and I would need to pause to read them. I did not grow up in a scrolling text world, so my brain struggles with it (same with chat windows).  Part of it is just how I take in or remember information, I remember much better what I read than what I hear. Usually dialogue in movies is difficult because of too loud background music,  but I think they did a great job there.  I also am thrilled it is lighter and not as dark with hard to see details which is so common in many shows. Both of those are reasons I have just stopped watching shows even if they are good, I can only play with the brightness setting so much. 

I caught the Siuan thing only after reading about it and re-watching for the third time.   

Edited to say I have found this transcript: https://tvshowtranscripts.ourboard.org/viewtopic.php?f=1119&t=48056&sid=29227d9a0aa16aea1d5529fe439325c1 
 

Some TV's have options for increasing font size/color/etc, but unfortunately with dialogue heavy scenes, the text speed will increase, and there's not much you can do other than pause, or find episode transcripts like the one you found above.

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3 hours ago, MasterAblar said:


Why would you think he’s older? He’s almost certainly lying anyway, since we know LTT never turned to the shadow.

 

True.

 

But, good to point out that even if he had, it wouldn't break RJ's lore because we have word-of-jordan telling us that the result of that would be  a 'draw' and not a win for the shadow.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Tim said:

Having been unable to make time to post for a week, and hence since I saw the first three episodes, I'm not sure whether it's depressing or amusing to return here only to find people post about stuff like whether Marin had more lines than Bran in episode 1 or whether Dana would be strong enough to run with a sword in episode 3. Seriously, is this what people get worked up over?

 

The thing I was most interested about from Dana's appearance in episode 3 is that her speech to Rand very clearly foreshadows Rand's nadir on Dragonmount, the uselessness of the cycle of being reborn into a world of pain and misery and mistakes - much more directly and precisely and obviously than Ingtar in the books. Ingtar is, I'm pretty sure, the only darkfriend in the books apart from Ishamael and one other (who I won't name in case some readers haven't gotten through all the books, but let's just say that her soul is white) who became a darkfriend for a reason other than some version of either power or immortality or freedom to be bad or all three. And yet here we have, in episode 3, a pretty low-ranking darkfriend who essentially espouses Ishamael's metaphysics and treats him as a kind of Jesus figure. 


And yet none of this is commented on here? Tell me that's not because it's not an example of oh noes Rafe once said he is a feminist I'm feeling so emasculated right now and that's the only sort of thing that seems to excite 50% of the contributors?

If you were here more than a week ago we were having similar conversations based on rumors, leaks, and interviews.  So not sure why this seems new to you.

 

And the thing you are interested in may not be the same thing other folks are - some yes, others no.

 

But appreciate you dropping in to denigrate the thoughts of others.

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2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Some TV's have options for increasing font size/color/etc, but unfortunately with dialogue heavy scenes, the text speed will increase, and there's not much you can do other than pause, or find episode transcripts like the one you found above.

Yep, i will continue to watch and then visit forums or sites like that for clarity.  Yes they have ways to increase fonts or the colors, but they usually do not make it clearer, or it covers up too much of the screen. 
On bigger tv's if you are focusing on reading you do not see what is going on.  I did not have as much difficulty with WoT as I have with many movies/shows as the background music was not overpowering.  I have difficulty hearing certain higher pitches so sometimes hear only half of a conversation often when it is between a male and female character. 

 

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2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

If you were here more than a week ago we were having similar conversations based on rumors, leaks, and interviews.  So not sure why this seems new to you.


It’s not. It was the main thing you posted about before the show was released, and almost the only thing you post about now.

 

It would just be nice (for me) to think that sometimes we could discuss something other than a meticulous micro-catalogue of all of the show’s perceived slights against men - but I respect that you think I am asking for too much in this regard.

 

 

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I went back and listened to Dana's speech again. And yes, it seems she's referring to Ishamael as the last person who "brought the Dragon to the Dark One". The first round through I interpreted the subsequent statement "we still remember his name 3000 years on - Ishamael" as referring to that Dragon rather than the person who brought him to the Dark One, but of course it does make more sense the other way round. 3000 years also roughly lines up with the breaking if I remember correctly, so it suggests that the dragon being referred to here is LTT and that, in the show, Ishamael turned LTT at some point before LTT died - or rather, that darkfriends at least believe that to be the case (perhaps at Ishamael's prompting).

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 There are many ways to take it..

 

 Ishamael lured Lews to the bore (darkone) where, Lews put a patch on the bore, but who won? Yes the DO was locked up, but didnt he get exactly what he wanted? Decades of utter chaos and destruction, the breaking, millions of lives lost, everything the DO would have done himself. In fact, the aftermath of the taint was more than even the foresaken were willing to do. Just like their hesitancy to use balefire in the age of legends, they wanted to rule.

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8 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

In the words of Robert Jordan “And you believed Ishamael? Come on, man.”

 

Yes that's the point of the final line of my post - though, given the extent to which the show has already changed the dragon backstory, I don't think there's any strong reason to assume that in the show-universe LTT wasn't somehow turned to the dark before he died. If the long-term question in the show is whether Rand ends up being a force for good or evil, then the writers might think it ramps up the tension if LTT not only set off the breaking but also (either before or after that point) failed the "test" for Rand in this regard.

 

I don't think that's the most likely explanation - flinn's speculation above seems more likely to me - but I don't think it can be ruled out at this point.

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Related to Dana, I think we're going to see DF's recruited based upon their "Dreadlords" niche.

Meaning, Ishamael recruits those who want the world to end. Graendral recruits those who relish in Gluttony. Sammael recruits those who relish power...

So instead of just getting "Which Ajah are you?" we'll get "Which Dreadlord do you follow?"

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34 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Related to Dana, I think we're going to see DF's recruited based upon their "Dreadlords" niche.

Meaning, Ishamael recruits those who want the world to end. Graendral recruits those who relish in Gluttony. Sammael recruits those who relish power...

So instead of just getting "Which Ajah are you?" we'll get "Which Dreadlord do you follow?"

 

Ackshually *pushes up glasses* The Dreadlords are those who rose up against the Light during the Trolloc Wars. The people you refer to are alternatively called the Chosen or Forsaken, depending upon your persuasion. ?

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2 hours ago, JenniferL said:

In the words of Robert Jordan “And you believed Ishamael? Come on, man.”

 

Not sure about this, bc Dana is saying Darkfriends as a group remember Ishy's name because of this accomplishment, not that he was her informant? Unless I misunderstood

 

I thought maybe "brought to the Dark One" but LTT then rejected it, ie never accepted to serve the Dark One, was just brought to SG

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5 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Not sure about this, bc Dana is saying Darkfriends as a group remember Ishy's name because of this accomplishment, not that he was her informant? Unless I misunderstood

 

Yep - though their belief may reflect what Ishamael has spent the last 3000 years telling them. 

 

Certainly I wouldn't have thought that (in the books) Ishamael really "brought" LTT to SG, though it would be the kind of thing he would claim (and that the backlash of tainting saidin had been the ultimate intention all along).

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9 minutes ago, Tim said:

 

Yep - though their belief may reflect what Ishamael has spent the last 3000 years telling them. 

 

Certainly I wouldn't have thought that (in the books) Ishamael really "brought" LTT to SG, though it would be the kind of thing he would claim (and that the backlash of tainting saidin had been the ultimate intention all along).

 Why wouldnt it be intentional? The DO understands the cycle. Lews Therin created as much death and destruction as the DO could want. Time is nothing to the DO, he doesnt care if he is in a "prison".

 

 In the beginning the creator created the earth and sealed the DO in his prison. Why? Because evil has to be in the world to give things like free-choice and balance. But, with the seal, the DOs touch is weak so people are able to build/learn/grow in peace. During the Age of Legends they didnt know war, until after Lanfear drilled the hole into the bore.

 

 The Dragon patches the bore in his/her cycle. An incomplete patch that results in 2 things, 1. the taint backlash and 2. The DO is able to touch the world more than when sealed in. You have decades of the breaking, completely changing the landscape of the planet, death destruction chaos, then over the next 3000 years you have wars, famines, plagues, and all the other bad things in the world, keeping the people from growing back to their former glory.  That is a win for the DO.

 

 The Dragon is reborn, he is tainted. The taint drives him mad where he begins hearing voices and memories, but in the case of the DR, the voices and memories are real, as Semihrage points out, but it is still madness. In essence the DO gives the DR the tool necessary to seal the DO in, going back to the first cycle where growth, learning and building in peace can happen.

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