Am I the only one who thinks the show looks bad?

[Brytac]

I have absolutely convinced myself they are going to -

 

A-  Think they know better than the Author and change too much...thinking its for the best.

 

B-  Make it very politically correct....rather than focus on telling a much loved great story.

 

 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Brytac said:

I have absolutely convinced myself they are going to -

 

A-  Think they know better than the Author and change too much...thinking its for the best.

 

B-  Make it very politically correct....rather than focus on telling a much loved great story.

 

 

Well, if you have convinced yourself then there isn't anything else to say.  Personally, I'm waiting for the show to air before I decide if Rafe and the gang have ruined it.

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, Brytac said:

A-  Think they know better than the Author and change too much...thinking its for the best.

regarding "knowing better than the author"...

 

brandon sanderson was working on a tv adaptation of mistborn at some point. He was brainstorming with a bunch of collaborators, when one of them suggested "what if we made hammond [a major character, a big guy] into a thin woman?".

And brandon - who wrote mistborn, wrote Ham as a man, and who's one of the best writers of this generation, thought about it for a few seconds and then replied "you know, that's a great idea. Why didn't i think of it myself? Let's do it"

which goes to show that one should not be afraid to make changes or think they know better than the author; often enough the author himself would recognize good changes.

 

Are you familiar with the "on the shoulders of giants" metaphor? you don't need to be better than the original author to improve on their work.

And we all agree that wot is full of problems and weaknesses. There is the slog. And most relationships feel wrong and forced. And some character interactions feel contrived. And some scenes aren't very convincing. For all that it was one of the greatest literary works of our time, wot can be improved. A lot.

Already the scene of moiraine entering the winespring inn as aes sedai feels better than the book, where she was trying to pass in incognito while wearing her great serpent ring in plain sight.

Edited October 9, 2021 by king of nowhere

[CaddySedai]

4 hours ago, Brytac said:

I have absolutely convinced myself they are going to -

 

A-  Think they know better than the Author and change too much...thinking its for the best.

 

B-  Make it very politically correct....rather than focus on telling a much loved great story.

 

 

 

Sorry to hear that, you will be missed during the watch parties. 

[TheDreadReader]

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

regarding "knowing better than the author"...

 

brandon sanderson was working on a tv adaptation of mistborn at some point. He was brainstorming with a bunch of collaborators, when one of them suggested "what if we made hammond [a major character, a big guy] into a thin woman?".

 

 

The novelist EM Forster made a distinction between the story (events separated by sequence and time) and plot (events linked by causality) in his book (essay?) The Art of the Novel.  When a gender-swap occurs it can be useful to ask "does it change the overall character's story?" and "What cause-and-effect changes does it create?".  Pretty clearly Brandon thought that the impact of the change didn't have a lot of negative effects on either.

 

 

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

 

 

Are you familiar with the "on the shoulders of giants" metaphor? you don't need to be better than the original author to improve on their work.

 

Very true.  You can also apply the "a picture is worth a thousand words" concept.  Pages and pages of description of clothes can be eliminated by just showing a character on screen wearing clothes.  

 

In screenwriting they say that "one page of screenplay equals one minute of screen time"  but you can strip out internal thoughts, descriptions, etc to reduce the source material down a bit.   The challenge is that you have find ways to convey that same information that the book reader has to the viewer.   

 

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

And we all agree that wot is full of problems and weaknesses. There is the slog. And most relationships feel wrong and forced. And some character interactions feel contrived. And some scenes aren't very convincing. For all that it was one of the greatest literary works of our time, wot can be improved. A lot.

Already the scene of moiraine entering the winespring inn as aes sedai feels better than the book, where she was trying to pass in incognito while wearing her great serpent ring in plain sight.

 

Indeed.  Going back to my earlier distinction adding the scene in the winespring changes both the story in the small scale but doesn't change it at a larger context but it still works pretty well from a cause-and-effect standpoint.  The book reveals the information to the reader by having characters talk about the strangers arrival to Rand as he goes about his day.  With the arrival of Moiraine happening while Rand is present in the inn, you've condensed those conversations and freed up space to do other things in the episode.  It is pretty efficient writing.  

 

You could still do the episode in a more book accurate way.  You'd would just have to spend more time doing it.  It would be pretty easy to do the episode with a more mystery to be solved feel but even then you probably would have to add additional scenes to help get the necessary information to understand what is happening across.   So, you'd be grappling with the changes question either way.

 

I agree with you that the Winespring Inn scene is an improvement.  There are a lot of subtle details that really help establish important details about the characters and the world mixed in there.  

 

 

 

[TheMountain]

To be fair, I think Brandon Sanderson is wayyy more open to adaptation changes and "Rule of Cool" in general than Robert Jordan would have ever been. One just needs to look at a small excerpt from his letters.

[thehumantrashcan]

23 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

To be fair, I think Brandon Sanderson is wayyy more open to adaptation changes and "Rule of Cool" in general than Robert Jordan would have ever been. One just needs to look at a small excerpt from his letters.

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[king of nowhere]

42 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

To be fair, I think Brandon Sanderson is wayyy more open to adaptation changes and "Rule of Cool" in general than Robert Jordan would have ever been. One just needs to look at a small excerpt from his letters.

this shows that RJ had a very clear and detailed picture in his mind, and he was giving feedback to fan art to make it as faithful as possible.

He probably wouldn't take it too well that the props are not replicated according to the detailed descriptions. though some of those may have reasons - for example, the aes sedai rings are huge in the show, but that's probably because otherwise they would not be visible in many scenes.

What would he think of the plot changes? no idea.

 

Makes me think, I would like to get an honest review of the show from his wife. She's surely under an NDA, and she is probably obliged to also not make comments.

but after the show has aired, and after it was successful - or not - on its own merits, and I also enjoyed or not enjoyed the show based on its merit and i wouldn't change opinion just because someone else disagrees - after that, I would like to hear that honest review.

[DaddyFinn]

 

This twitter thread ☝️

 

[Jean]

It's not looking good. I'm on book 6 on my first read. I have mixed feelings about the series but I have to say if this clip is any indication of the quality or visual story telling of the books I might take a hard pass because it looks, at best, basic.

[DojoToad]

58 minutes ago, Jean said:

It's not looking good. I'm on book 6 on my first read. I have mixed feelings about the series but I have to say if this clip is any indication of the quality or visual story telling of the books I might take a hard pass because it looks, at best, basic.

Okay.

[Brytac]

On 10/9/2021 at 11:44 AM, DojoToad said:

Well, if you have convinced yourself then there isn't anything else to say.  Personally, I'm waiting for the show to air before I decide if Rafe and the gang have ruined it.

Dont get me wrong, im approaching and watching it with great anticipation.  Hope it will be brilliant.

 

 

[Brytac]

On 10/9/2021 at 3:33 PM, CaddySedai said:

 

Sorry to hear that, you will be missed during the watch parties. 

Strange reply.

 

Just like you, I look forward to it and hope it will be fantastic.

 

Surely the more people that watch and get on board with the Series...the more chance we have of having a long running 6 Series version of WOT?

 

 

[forbiddento]

On 10/9/2021 at 11:35 AM, Brytac said:

I have absolutely convinced myself they are going to -

 

A-  Think they know better than the Author and change too much...thinking its for the best.

 

B-  Make it very politically correct....rather than focus on telling a much loved great story.

 

 

 

A and B are true. 

On A: because of this attitude, the show will fail spectacularly. We are witnessing right now that the more scenes come forward from the show, the bigger the backlash. Of course, banning more and more people who express their opinions will not work. And screaming "You are racist!" will not work, because facts are facts.

On B: Robert Jordan was white, heterosexual, and Christian, and his most important characters are white, heterosexual, and the books are filled with Christian allegories. According to today's political climate these traits are disgusting even apart from each other, so it was "inevitable" to change them.

It is rather amusing that if you quote from the Jordan's books, notes, and interviews to point out the show's errors, you will be called a racist, a sexist, a misogynist, and many other things.

Still, there's a silver lining (as always): nobody will remember this show in five years. Nobody.

[Brytac]

11 minutes ago, forbiddento said:

 

A and B are true. 

On A: because of this attitude, the show will fail spectacularly. We are witnessing right now that the more scenes come forward from the show, the bigger the backlash. Of course, banning more and more people who express their opinions will not work. And screaming "You are racist!" will not work, because facts are facts.

On B: Robert Jordan was white, heterosexual, and Christian, and his most important characters are white, heterosexual, and the books are filled with Christian allegories. According to today's political climate these traits are disgusting even apart from each other, so it was "inevitable" to change them.

It is rather amusing that if you quote from the Jordan's books, notes, and interviews to point out the show's errors, you will be called a racist, a sexist, a misogynist, and many other things.

Still, there's a silver lining (as always): nobody will remember this show in five years. Nobody.

 

 

That's my fear.  I WANT this to be successful.  The 'next game of thrones' if you will pardon the obvious comparison. 

 

GOT would never have become what it was if they had changed the early Books as much as I worry they have changed WOT.

 

People loved the books (GOT and WOT) and they do not need reinventing.  Changes can be understood but its a fine line.  The first in the queue to watch GOT were fans of the books.  The same will be true of WOT.  

 

Get those people on board and have word of mouth do the rest.

 

If they decide they know best and write a new story for TV to appear politically correct......nobody will remember this as you suggest.  Follow the loved story and it will have a chance.

 

 

Fingers Crossed.

 

 

 

 

[CaddySedai]

Backlash? Banning? Who is being banned? Certainly noone here, maybe you are referring to other plagued sites?

 

From what I see the battle lines were drawn even before the teaser. Some are for it and excuse all at any cost. Others are against it and trying to poison the well so it dies off even before a second has aired. 

 

These groups are blessed minorities. Most are in a state of hopeful optimism and thus tend to welcome that first group into discussions because its less jarring than the other when you are trying to be positive lol. 

 

I of course find myself wanting more of anything Wheel related. Jordan did a great deal of excusing for the video game lore back when it came out (it deviates in just about every conceivable way from the books) eventually settling on that it was a portal stone world.  Being part of my gaming history during my formative years it has a ton of love. I even feel that while the gameplay is dated - the game still holds up today and I still occasionally play it when my PC decides to play nice and not crash the game (90s games always have issues on modern computers - the fact its playable at times is a bloody miracle)

 

Still, for how much I love the books to date that game is the only real visual medium the series has existed in. Its such a shame more play has not been given to the series. It is for that reason I am generally excited about the tv show. Whether or not it adheres to the letter (already we know it wont) or the spirit of (which is how it’s described) to me is a positive because its new media. Its part of the WoT universe. And if it does well could potentially spawn prequels - stuff from the AoL. Perhaps another company would take a crack at it down the road for deeper accuracy (see Dune attempts 1 thru seventy bajillion and yet the original film which deviates the most is still the most widely loved). 

 

My fear is that if we don’t give it a fair shake (watching it and hating it is totally fair - as can be found in my diary entry “Star Wars: The Phantom Menace - the day I died a little inside” … than no-one is allowed to read lol) and choose to hate it before we watch it- to boycott simply because it deviates from headcanon - then we could be dooming WoT to exist solely through the books and gradually having our fanbase dwindle. 

 

So of the three groups I called out I say I toe the line of the hopeful optimist who is willing to excuse changes up until I actually watch the series… then they are fair game to love or hate as I see fit ?

 

And it wasn’t a weird response @BrytacI simply figured you would not be interested in watch parties with us hopefuls lol. And the GoT reference is fine. Though the curious thing there is that series not only had a living author and practically compelled him to write the rest of the series but then eventually decided to do its own thing - which is… yeah. 

Edited October 11, 2021 by CaddySedai

[CaddySedai]

The reality is though… unless the episodes either greatly succeed or greatly fail - both sides likely will hold their lines. 

 

You have people determined to like the series no matter what and will defend it with or without merit. 

 

You have people determined not to give it a chance. Who will hate every second and likely not even watch in the hopes low viewership will kill it with fire. 

 

Neither side will budge. It is the middle ground that can flex up and down based on the shows merit alone. I am doing my best to enter it from a perspective of “Is this a good fantasy series?” and if there is that … its a minor success that I can enjoy (or it is not a good fantasy series in which case… damn). Once it crosses that threshold then I will decide if it is a good Wheel of Time series - because it could be so deviant that it is both a good fantasy but a bad Wheel. 

 

My hope is that it is both good fantasy and deserving of the name. Only time will tell at this point. 

[Zyxthior]

2 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

...as can be found in my diary entry “Star Wars: The Phantom Menace - the day I died a little inside” …

LOL....had I kept a journal my entry would have mirrored yours....

 

I saw the Winespring clip this weekend and it looked 'adequate' except for the weird Lan entrance...I hate when they make heroes 'pose' in films...I know they're aiming for this cool entrance....but it makes it look unnatural to me.  I guess I continue with "cautiously optimistic"...

[DaddyFinn]

I liked all of the prequel films. Fight me. ?

[DojoToad]

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

I liked all of the prequel films. Fight me. ?

I liked them all, but certainly didn't love them - too much Jar Jar.

[CaddySedai]

24 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I liked all of the prequel films. Fight me. ?

 

Burn, Darkfriend. 

[SinisterDeath]

32 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I liked them all, but certainly didn't love them - too much Jar Jar.

Totally off topic, but Jar Jar secretly a Sith the whole time (aka Foundation & Empire's "The Mule"), would have made the trilogy sooooo much better, but the directors caved to the Jar Jar hate.

[Agitel]

Honestly I think TPM was the best of the prequels. Liam Neeson really carries it. Anakin is a fairly small role and Jar Jar is "jarring" but not as obnoxious as I thought he was. The next two movies are much worse, even RotS. I don't know who to blame (actor, script, direction), but Hayden Christiansen's Anakin is just not likable or endearing (even a tragic hero or anti-hero should feel likable), and the romance with Portman isn't just unbelievable, it's "disbelievable."

 

Also, I think the prequels are a good idea with bad execution, while the sequels are terrible underneath with sparkly coats of paint. (Sequels have some good beats, but overall just not a solid foundation to build with).

[CaddySedai]

@Agitel

 

IMHO the sequels were there to deliver fan service and wrap up Saga. 

 

Disney does its best work when it makes its own lore and stories. Like when they replaced bothan spies with the crew in Rogue One and turned in arguably the best Star Wars film since the original trilogy. 

 

And Mandalorian, the animated series’, and hopefully The Book of Fett will live up to the hype. 

 

They tend to do poorly with someone else’s characters lol. How they handle Solo in both solo and the sequels is kinda like when RickyBobby didn't know what to do with his hands in that interview lol. 

[JaimAybara]

48 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Totally off topic, but Jar Jar secretly a Sith the whole time (aka Foundation & Empire's "The Mule"), would have made the trilogy sooooo much better, but the directors caved to the Jar Jar hate.

The Phantom Menace corrections I would’ve made:

 

1) No kid actor. Actually make him “too old” with a 1999 Heath Ledger as Skywalker. At the time he would still be young enough to see Kenobi as a mentor but also old enough to have that seriously flawed and rebellious nature that cannot be molded by the Jedi. This could also have created suspicion of Kenobi through jealousy much earlier and develop it more organically. 
 

2) No Jar Jar. 

 

3) Don’t get rid of Darth Maul when they did or bring him back in the second film as the big bad of the trilogy until the big Palpatine Reveal. 

Edited October 11, 2021 by JaimAybara