Why did Moiraine say Thom needed Mat to find the tower?

[Tud - Member]

Just on a whim (too much time on my hands), I recently started re-reading  the series. I'm well into the EOTW and hit the scene where Mat first sees the Tower Of Ghengi.  As I read the scene, I flash forwarded to Mat reading Moiraine's  letter to Thom regarding her rescue in Towers Of Midnight. As I recall, the letter specifically tells Thom that only a team consisting  of himself, Mat and one other can succeed. No problem with any of that since Mat is the one to figure out how to use the lines from the Fox and Snakes game to gain entry to the tower and out fox the Aelfin (I think those are the people holding her). What did bring me up short though was the part about Mat being the only person who can tell Thom where the Tower of Ghengi is located. That's absolutely not true. Thom was standing right next to Mat on Bayle Domon's boat when they first encountered the Tower. That being the case, there's no need for Thom to consult Mat about it's location. Of course, Moiraine wasn't there when the tower hove into sight so you could argue that she wasn't aware of Thom's presence, but if that's the case, how did she know that Mat had seen it and knew where it was? Also, why didn't Thom remind  Mat about the tower when Mat read the letter (I believe Moiraine told Thom that he had to wait until Mat asked to see the letter before showing it to him).

 

This question may have been already posed and if it has been, my apologies. However, I couldn't find any reference to it , so I'm posing it now. What give's? Is this another continuity error like with Perrin's on-again, off-again sisters or is there another explanation?  

 

Thanks, tud

 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Tud
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[Ryrin - Club Leader]

It's been a while since I read it but maybe by "location" Moiraine meant the way in? Moiraine knew Mat had seen the ToG after her trip into Rhuidean.

[Talmanes - Member]

I mean I think the bigger thing is Mat has to go, he's the whole reason they survive and find Moirane, with his luck, and also he's the one that makes the bargain to get her back, as was prophesied.

 

The other details come from her visions of the possible future in Rhuidean where she saw other combinations fail.

[Tud - Member]

 While I agree that Mat had to be one of the three to make the rescue attempt, that doesn't explain why Moiraine told Thom that only  Mat would be able to tell him where the Tower Of Ghengi was located.  He already knew and if Moiraine could tell him the Mat knew the way, then she'd also know that Thom had seen it at the same time. It doesn't make sense. 

 

                                                                                     tud

Edited October 15, 2018 by Tud

[Sabio - Member]

Does Thom know that's the tower of Ghenjai?  It's unlikely she knew for sure Thom had seen the tower.  Mat had the advantage of being able to speak to Brigette about the place.

[Ryrin - Club Leader]

7 hours ago, Tud said:

 While I agree that Mat had to be one of the three to make the rescue attempt, that doesn't explain why Moiraine told Thom that only  Mat would be able to tell him where the Tower Of Ghengi was located.  He already knew and if Moiraine could tell him the Mat knew the way, then she'd also know that Thom had seen it at the same time. It doesn't make sense. 

 

                                                                                     tud

 

Past memories?

[Niniel - Club Leader]

On 2018-10-13 at 5:52 PM, Talmanes said:

I mean I think the bigger thing is Mat has to go, he's the whole reason they survive and find Moirane, with his luck, and also he's the one that makes the bargain to get her back, as was prophesied.

 

The other details come from her visions of the possible future in Rhuidean where she saw other combinations fail.

 

I think Talmanes is right about this. 

[Tud - Member]

I don't dispute the point that Talmanes is making, I'm just asking why she told Thom that Mat can tell him where the Tower Of Ghenji is when Thom already knew. He gained that knowledge at the same time Mat did...Going down river with Rand on Bayle Doman's boat in  EOTW. It doesn't make sense that Moiraine would see in the rings that Mat knew where the tower was and  not see that Thom had the same knowledge. Also, why didn't Thom remark on it when he showed the letter to Mat? In fact, considering the whole in Mat's memory, Thom was more likely to recall the incident.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Tud

[haycraftd - Member]

Mat's memory was patchy during his time on the river and at Rhuidean, they fill his memories with the memories of others.  Where did they get those memories?  I assume from those who bargained with the and then became great generals.  Mat thinks a lot about how the snakes and foxes are in his head.  

 

One of Mat's few distinct memories of the river journey was seeing the Tower.  I think that might be a more significant memory for him because A) it's one of the very few he has and B) he bargained twice with them.  Thom was busy entertaining the sailors.  Sure, Thom might have seen it, but they pass many remains from the Age of Legends on their way to Whitebridge and so for Thom this is just another relic. 

 

Now, Mat is also a very experienced general by the time he visits the Tower.  One of the many things he focuses on a LOT as a general is on mapping.  

 

With the combination of that memory, mapping, and Birgitte, he's better at locating it than Thom.

[Tud - Member]

Well, actually no, Mat isn't better at locating the tower. For one thing, Thom wasn't distracted when they encountered the tower on the boat.  He actually makes mention of seeing the Tower when they encountered it. Also, Thom's memory of the trip  is fine. Much better than  Mat's. Unlike Mat, he didn't have holes chewed in his memory by the dagger and wasn't sick at the time. Finally, Mat generalship has nothing to do with Moiraine telling Thom that Mat knows where the tower is. you could say that  perhaps she doesn't  know, but if so, why didn't Thomreact when he read the letter?  

[Mashiara Sedai - Administrator]

It's all down to the Pattern.  In The Great Hunt, Verin says, "With ta'veren, what happens is what was meant to happen.  It may be the Pattern demanded these extra days.  The Pattern puts everything in its place precisely, and when we try to alter it, especially if ta'veren are involved, the waving changes to put us back into the Pattern as we were meant to be."  (Chapter 44, Five Will Ride Forth)

 

If they'd tried to rescue Moiraine at any other time, the Pattern would not have accepted it.  Moiraine knew this from either her trip into the ter'angreal, or from her trip into Rhuidian (sp?).  I can't recall because I'm only at The Great Hunt on my reread.  That was why she made Thom wait until Mat asked.  She knew it was their only chance for success.

[Tud - Member]

Mashiara Sedai, I'm not disputing your point about the pattern. In fact, Moiraine  plainly was aware of it as evidenced by her admonition to not reveal the contents of her letter to Mat until he asked to read it. What I noted in my re-read of EOTW was what appears to be a continuity error regarding Moiraine telling Thom that he needs Mat to tell him where the Tower of Ghenji  was located.  In EOTW, Thom saw it at the same time as Mat and had its significance explained to him (and Mat)  by Bayle Doman. Thom needed Mat to enter the  Tower and  he needed his luck to survive and to successfully rescue Moiraine, but he didn't need his knowledge to locate the Tower. 

[Songstress - Moderator]

Moiraine's letter doesn't say he needed Mat to find the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

What she says is that if Thom is going to try to rescue her,  the only way he will be successful is if he takes Mat and one other man, and that "young Mat knows the way to find me."

 

Thom and Mat saw the big metal tower at the same time, yes, but neither of them knew what it was.  Jain Farstrider thought the Tower of Ghenjei was on the Shadow Coast somewhere.  Mat, however, did know one person who had been there (and was determined to keep her secrets).  Without Mat's knowledge of Birgitte's true past, none of them would have been able to figure out that the metal tower they saw on the way downriver to Whitebridge was the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

Also, even if Thom had managed to figure out somehow that the mysterious metal tower was the right place, he would never have found Moiraine within the tower without using Mat's luck, so he was needed in order to find Moiraine in more than one way.

 

[Sabio - Member]

Songstress is right.  She knew she would be trapped there and that Matt had already been there.  Not to mention Matt would gain the knowledge how to get to her.  Hence why it was so important for Thom to wait till Matt asked about the letter.  It's unlikely Moraine even knew what that tower was.  

[Dagon Thyne - Member]

She might have meant that he would need Mat's help to get back out.  Remember that Mat's had the key.  Maybe she figured that out.  

[wotfan4472 - Member]

Mat was needed because he has bargained with the snakes and foxes twice before, and knew how difficult they could be to agree to anything. Thom and Jain had zero chance of finding Moiraine, because they had never encountered the snakes and foxes before. The game only has the leavetaking, not the actual negotiations that have to happen. As a result their chances of escaping without Mat were below zero.

[Apple151 - Member]

She really didn't honestly... repeating myself but Mat's just a mistake IMO .

[wotfan4472 - Member]

Mat's part in the rescue was what allowed them to get her out. Mat's part to the Last Battle made it absolutely certain that the Pattern needed him, Thom and Jain to go in. Mat going in was not a mistake. It had to happen, or the Dark One and Demandred win.    

Edited March 27, 2019 by wotfan4472

[DemandredFO - Member]

Apple doesn't seem to want everything his way, probably 19th century slavery or whatever. Pay no attention.

[Sabio - Member]

Mat knew where the tower was, Mat knew how to get in, Mat knew about bargaining with them, Mat's luck allowed them to find the right spot in the tower, and Mat was needed to get out of the tower.

[Wadgern - Member]

It seems more likely to me that Moiraine  phrased her question in a way that told or showed her who would rescue her from the tower and not how they got there. She recognized Thom and Mat, but not the third. And therefore phrased it as such in her letter to you “You, Mat and one other”. It has to be them because she knows that they three would be the ones to get her out, if not how they got there. But it’s been awhile since i’ve read them, so I might be hazy on a specific detail.

[mb - Member]

about Thom knowing the tower's location; have reread the chapter (of the river trip) several minutes ago.

Thom seemed not present when the ship passed by.

 

edit::  I guess Thom was somewhere below deck at that time.

Edited April 29, 2019 by mb

[Sabio - Member]

Also many might have seen the tower, but no one knew what the tower was or what it was called.  It's unlikely any Aes Sedai knew the name of the tower.  Perin and Mat knew of tower from talking to Brigette,

[wotfan4472 - Member]

On 3/30/2019 at 2:06 PM, DemandredFO said:

Apple doesn't seem to want everything his way, probably 19th century slavery or whatever. Pay no attention.

 

That would be a shame not paying attention. I like debating book stuff. Particularly when readers forget how things play out at critical moments such as this, knowing it would not end well if it did. It is good practice for real world discussions, actually. Learned tons from coming here. Many varying views on everything. Quite civil, too.