"How Feminism Hurts Men"

[Elgee]

 

Jak, the point here isn't what YOU think, it's what Asus projects as their belief, ie that females are "lesser". They had the option of going with 2 boys, or 2 girls, or gender neutral, or swopping what they have, but they didn't.

 

 You misinterpreted what I said. I said that I don't think that having a little stylized picture of a lady in the corner of that thing means anything. I don't think that it means ANYTHING about Asus at all. I was cautioning people not to read into things too much. With all due respect Mother, I respectfully state that to get huffy about this and to say that because of that little thing, you think that Asus thinks that females are lesser is... well... ridiculous. 

 

Yeah, they had the option of going with 2 boys and 2 girls or whatever, but so what if they didn't? The three Ta'veren of the Wheel of Time are three guys. Are they implying that girls can't save the world?   No girls went on the quest to Mount Doom, does that mean Tolkien was sexist?  No, of course not.

 

You know what? If the roles had been switched and the picture of the guy was on the other side; I wouldn't care. 

 

 

Do you have ANY idea ... ANY idea at all, how unbelievably patronising it is to tell a woman that she's over-reacting and getting "huffy" when she says that what someone is doing is sexist? Dear lord.

[Barmacral]

Well I wouldn't know about gamers cuz I'm not one. I didn't know any of that, so it looked to me like you were drawing an awful lot of conclusions from that image. :P But remember, when you say that the girl looked silly, that is an OPINION. That never entered MY mind when I looked at it.

 

If you don't know anything about it, maybe you shouldn't be telling other people it is nothing?

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

 

 

Jak, the point here isn't what YOU think, it's what Asus projects as their belief, ie that females are "lesser". They had the option of going with 2 boys, or 2 girls, or gender neutral, or swopping what they have, but they didn't.

 

 You misinterpreted what I said. I said that I don't think that having a little stylized picture of a lady in the corner of that thing means anything. I don't think that it means ANYTHING about Asus at all. I was cautioning people not to read into things too much. With all due respect Mother, I respectfully state that to get huffy about this and to say that because of that little thing, you think that Asus thinks that females are lesser is... well... ridiculous. 

 

Yeah, they had the option of going with 2 boys and 2 girls or whatever, but so what if they didn't? The three Ta'veren of the Wheel of Time are three guys. Are they implying that girls can't save the world?   No girls went on the quest to Mount Doom, does that mean Tolkien was sexist?  No, of course not.

 

You know what? If the roles had been switched and the picture of the guy was on the other side; I wouldn't care. 

 

 

Do you have ANY idea ... ANY idea at all, how unbelievably patronising it is to tell a woman that she's over-reacting and getting "huffy" when she says that what someone is doing is sexist? Dear lord.

 

 

Should I not state my opinion? It seriously looked to me like you were overreacting to that image. I'm sorry if I offended you, but I wan't trying to. 

 

 

Well I wouldn't know about gamers cuz I'm not one. I didn't know any of that, so it looked to me like you were drawing an awful lot of conclusions from that image. :P But remember, when you say that the girl looked silly, that is an OPINION. That never entered MY mind when I looked at it.

 

If you don't know anything about it, maybe you shouldn't be telling other people it is nothing?

 

 

I still believe that I was absolutely correct, that image by itself WAS nothing. I never said I knew NOTHING about it. I said I wouldn't know much about gamer since I'm not one. I DO know that asus is a computer hardware/electronics company that makes some killer products. I saw that someone had posted a picture made by them about gamer (AKA: people who buy their products) There was a little picture of a girl holding a drink in one corner, and a guy with a beard and glasses, wearing headphones and waving some unidentified object around. This picture was called sexist because the girl was on the 'casual gamer' side. I thought this was ridiculous so I said so. I respectfully ask: What is the problem? 

[Ithillian Turambar]

Hi Jack,

 

It's true that gender stereotypes in advertising has become normalised, that might be why you really can't see the issue.

 

Let's treat the image like a piece of art and critique it.

 

On the left is serious gamer. It's a male figure. He has on glasses to show his intelligence and a headset to show he's a real gamer and does the chat thing. The colours are greens and stuff. He doesn't care about his keyboard. He pays for rebuilds and upgrades. HE is a serious gamer.

 

On the other side is Casual player. This is a female. She likes to keep things clean. She has pretty yellow hair and a pretty pink cup. She likes playing pretty games.

 

You say they could have used two male figures, but they didn't. Why do you think this is? Why does the one image represent serious gaming and the other casual gaming? Why was the male figure, with all his geekery chosen for serious and why was the pink pretty female figure chosen for casual?

 

There's a reason, and it's because the computer people believe that's what sells. They believe men will see the male figure and identify with it and say yes, this is the computer for me because I am SERIOUS. And they believe women will identify with the pretty pink girl and say yes, I can play my pretty games on this.

 

It is gender stereotyping and that's why it's wrong. It's been normalised so that's why some people don't see it's wrong.

 

It's why my boys don't get to have many craft kits, because they're all made in pink plastic and they've been told pink is for girls. It's why the whole girl pages in the toy catalogue are skippped past in one chunk, because everything is dolls and pink and more pink.

 

This has become more and more normalised. Things weren't all pink when I was young, but now everything is all pink. It's very sad. It's very limiting. It's very ... Normal.

[Turin Turambar]

Stereotyping of any sort is bad. The example cited about the ASUS ad is an easy example of how easy it is to fall into that thinking. They may have been wanting to put women in the ad but I agree that they did it in the wrong way. It would have been more powerful actually to make two sets of the ad one with two women and one with two men. Then run them on subsequent pages. They would have doubled up their message and also looked like a progressive company.

 

The pinkification of "girls toys" is also troubling. Why do girls need pink LEGO? do they work differently? I mean some of it may just be marketing to increase sales by getting a boys set and a girls set but it is doing a disservice to everyone. Boys need to know that colours aren't gender specific. Girls too for that matter.

 

 Buy your kids craft things if they have any interest. Making things is fun. That is why LEGO rules. 

[Ithillian Turambar]

And don't even get me started on Lego Friends.

 

http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/BrowseMobile?s=Price%3A+Low+-+High&storeId=10151&catalogId=24551&langId=110&c_1=1%7Ccategory_root%7CToys%7C33006252&c_2=2%7C33006252%7CLEGO%2Band%2Bconstruction%2Btoys%7C33006903&c_3=3%7Ccat_33006903%7CLEGO%7C33014616&r_001=1%7CAction+Figures+%26+Playsets-Character%7CLEGO+Friends%7C1&authToken=&cmpid=GG05X&_$ja=cgid:12916952548|tsid:13538|cid:166169668|lid:40571526287|nw:g|crid:50662180228|rnd:17289777458493058238|dvc:m|adp:1t1&gclid=CLmi2u6ttMECFQHlwgodgEkAbQ

 

Which is like Lego - but pink and pastels and is all about shopping and clothes and cute animals and other NORMAL girl activities.

 

I really like lego. I had a shed load of lego when I was young. Girls were not all pink princesses.

 

Kindereggs used to have orange wrapping. They had non gender spcific toys in them. They were cool.

 

Now there are pink Kindereggs with princesses in and blue kindereggs with cars and transformers in.

 

The blue ones also had mini marvel heroes in last year - I got one of each to use as christmas tree decoration.

 

But there we have it. Girls are pink. Girls things are pink. Girls things have to be pink. Some girls like being pink. Some girls have been pinked throughout their whole lives so now it's normal. As a non pinked female, it's all just a bit much really.

[Ithillian Turambar]

I did get my eldest a cool bead thing that you made pictures with. His dad told him it was a girl's toy

 

It was such a shame as he really enjoyed it.

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

Hi Jack,

 

It's true that gender stereotypes in advertising has become normalised, that might be why you really can't see the issue.

 

Let's treat the image like a piece of art and critique it.

 

On the left is serious gamer. It's a male figure. He has on glasses to show his intelligence and a headset to show he's a real gamer and does the chat thing. The colours are greens and stuff. He doesn't care about his keyboard. He pays for rebuilds and upgrades. HE is a serious gamer.

 

On the other side is Casual player. This is a female. She likes to keep things clean. She has pretty yellow hair and a pretty pink cup. She likes playing pretty games.

 

You say they could have used two male figures, but they didn't. Why do you think this is? Why does the one image represent serious gaming and the other casual gaming? Why was the male figure, with all his geekery chosen for serious and why was the pink pretty female figure chosen for casual?

 

There's a reason, and it's because the computer people believe that's what sells. They believe men will see the male figure and identify with it and say yes, this is the computer for me because I am SERIOUS. And they believe women will identify with the pretty pink girl and say yes, I can play my pretty games on this.

 

It is gender stereotyping and that's why it's wrong. It's been normalised so that's why some people don't see it's wrong.

 

It's why my boys don't get to have many craft kits, because they're all made in pink plastic and they've been told pink is for girls. It's why the whole girl pages in the toy catalogue are skippped past in one chunk, because everything is dolls and pink and more pink.

 

This has become more and more normalised. Things weren't all pink when I was young, but now everything is all pink. It's very sad. It's very limiting. It's very ... Normal.

 

I get what you're saying Ithi, but it was hard for me to see because I'm not a serious gamer and therefore identify more with the 'casual gamer' side of the image. I didn't think anything was wrong with the side of the image that I was closer to. Not in gender, but in thinking. Blue is more to my taste than pink, but the only Ring of Death I know of was carried by Frodo, I try to keep the keyboard clean, I don't spend money on games (except Age of Empires) and I don't even know what 'LAN' stand for. I have enjoyed playing video games with friends, but I don't go out of my way to play them. 

 

I can see how it's gender stereotyping that guys are more likely to be serious gamers than girls, but I hope you (and Mother) can see that from my perspective, it's not really something I care too much about. 

 

Yeah, I remember in grade-school, among the guys, pink and purple were referred to as 'girl colors' and guys would be ridiculed if they had ANYTHING pink. Even as a sophomore in high-school when I borrowed my sister's earbuds that has a tiny bit of pink on them (she doesn't even like pink, they were a mistake)  I was ridiculed buy GIRLS for using them. I tried to explain that the object was function and that I didn't care what color they were. Yes, you're right Ithi, that stereotype is very normal now. 

 

 

Stereotyping of any sort is bad. The example cited about the ASUS ad is an easy example of how easy it is to fall into that thinking. They may have been wanting to put women in the ad but I agree that they did it in the wrong way. It would have been more powerful actually to make two sets of the ad one with two women and one with two men. Then run them on subsequent pages. They would have doubled up their message and also looked like a progressive company.

 

The pinkification of "girls toys" is also troubling. Why do girls need pink LEGO? do they work differently? I mean some of it may just be marketing to increase sales by getting a boys set and a girls set but it is doing a disservice to everyone. Boys need to know that colours aren't gender specific. Girls too for that matter.

 

 Buy your kids craft things if they have any interest. Making things is fun. That is why LEGO rules. 

 

LEGO does rule  , but I have a question about stereotyping. You see, one year, a Korean teacher came to the school and we did an experiment with racial stereotyping where the Korean teacher told us the stereotypes that her students in Korea had about americans: we are all really fat or supermodel thin, we smell like cheese, we all have our own pool, ect. And we were supposed to give her our stereotypes about them. Ours were all things like: They are really smart, good at math, great piano players, ect.

 

So my question is: do all stereotypes, even nice (relatively speaking) stereotypes, do they all have to be destructive? 

 

And how do you think these gender or racial stereotypes start? I don't want to say that it would be that gender of race's fault they have it, but isn't it sometimes linked to behavior or preferences that certain people in that... group possessed at one time? Does that make sense? 

[Ryrin]

What do you think about cheerleading? I know now that it's very physical and performance oriented.

 

I dont have any daughters but the first thought that comes to my mind that is that if I did, I'd rather have them playing sports than cheering.

[Ryrin]

Sorry, Jak, I was posting while you were.

[Turin Turambar]

I did get my eldest a cool bead thing that you made pictures with. His dad told him it was a girl's toy

 

It was such a shame as he really enjoyed it.

Silly dad. Toys are toys. there are no boys toys and girls toys. 

 

Girls aren't allowed to play sports? Boys aren't allowed to play with "dolls"? why are action figures okay? is all imaginitive play. Take a character and make a story with them. 

[Ithillian Turambar]

We don't have cheerleaders here. I think that both male and female students have a lot of pressure over how they're perceived by their peers. Cheerleaders for girls and sports heroes for boys. Both demanding roles in college and school.

 

When it gets to pro status things change. Boys get paid loads. Girls do it for free.

 

But then girls want to do it and there's a massive queue to do it. I'm not going to knock any girl that really wants to be a cheerleader. Follow your dream and all that, but it's not my cup of tea.

 

You make me smile Jak. I did think you really just didn't see it for what it was. It's often easier to see things if you're the ones being affected.

 

Boys and girls get the same toys bought for them as was done way way back. Before the wars. Before women stepped out of the home and into the workplace. They still get dolls and kitchens and hoovers and irons and all the homemaker toys - they're a lot more pink, but their perceived future role is being learned through play.

 

Similarly with boys, they get contruction toys and tools and castles and cars. They're being set up to go out and work in those types of roles and jobs.

 

Now the girls might not want to be homemakers and the boys might not want to be mechanics, but that's what they're being shown is normal. Still. Even in 2014.

 

I was lucky I guess. I had no brothers. I had 3 sisters. My dad bought us car tracks and train sets, took us fishing and shooting. I played lego and flew stunt kites. I read detective novels and adventures. I was not limited and actually was the main wage earner in my married life while he hardly worked any hours and looked after the boys.

 

Stereotypes. They're not good because basically you're just looking at a fixed portrayal of generalised beliefs when people are all unique. They're also created by people outside the group. They're assumptive and labelling.

 

The French are not all great lovers, neither do they all smell of garlic.

 

Germans are not all great engineers and they don't only drink beer and eat sausage.

 

Some English people can even cook really good food and are terrible at queueing.

 

If you see the stereotype you don't see the person.

[Turin Turambar]

well said Ithi. 

[michellem]

Ithi, every single post you've made in this thread is just beautiful. Thank you.

 

 

The toys and pink issue troubles me too. My youngest brother, he's 8 now, his favourite colour is pink. My dad doesn't bat an eyelash. But after he started kindergarden, he didn't wanna wear his pink t-shirts anymore, and didn't use the pink colouring pencils anymore (I have this cute drawing he made to me when he was three, that's all the different shades of pink he had). Because in kindergarden, both by other kids and employees, he was told pink was a girl colour. 4 years old, and already feeling the limits society sets for his gender.

 

We made them name signs for their rooms last christmas, and we made his a strong red, with a slightly pink tint. When he opened it he was like "ugh sis, it's pink, pink are for girls!". But later in the evening before bedtime he came sitting on my lap and gave me a hug and said he loved his almost-pink sign and wished it could've been really pink.

 

(and I've now written the word pink so much that it doesn't make any kind of sense).

 

 

I used to follow this wonderful blog. It was a couple who had a son, 4-5 years old. They didn't give him any gender limits. They let him roam free in the clothing store and toystore, and bought whatever he fancied. He'd go out in a tutu skirt and football jersey. He played with barbies and cars. And when strangers tried to judge him, or he was told he couldn't to this because it was a girls thing or wear that because it was a girls clothing items, he'd ask them why. Why was only girls allowed to play with dolls? Why could only girls wear skirts, why couldn't he when they were so much fun? Why couldn't he be a princess and his best friend (a girl) a cowboy?

 

 

It's the same thing as, it's ok for a girl to be a tomboy, but not for a guy to be feminine in any way. My husband has felt this very clearly. He's always been skinny, and in his teens he was a quite hardcore goth. He wore platform boots and studded bracelets, big military pants and make-up. What people commented about to his mother, was the make-up. The rest was weird, but teens are weird. But the make-up, that was wrong. And it took until we were married before the rumours that he was actually gay died down; they thought I was a cover for four years... *shakes head*

 

The funny thing is, most people can't answer when you question them on their opinions. Why is it un-manly to wear make-up? Why is it unmanly to like pink? Why is it unmanly to not like action movies? It all ties into just one thing. "That's the way it is". Well, the way it is has changed before, and can again, if enough people decide to let go of the stupid notions that this or that is "off-limits" because of gender.

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

Hello everyone,

 

First I just wanted to issue an apology, first to mother for my rudeness, and secondly, to anyone else whom I have offended with my comments on this very important topic, especially all of the ladies, who already and have to fight for their rights on a daily basis and shouldn't have to put up with me. I was out of line and I beg all of your forgiveness, and I promise to be... how do you say... not an asshole in the future. 

 

And secondly: I would like to thank you all for being so patient with me (especially mother) and thank you also to Ithi, for screwing my head on straight... again. 

 

Thank you all for your time and I hope that we can still all be friends!

 

-Jak

[Elgee]

That's a nicely done apology, Jak - thank you :)

[Ryrin]

Very nice, Jak. Appreciate it.

[michellem]

Of course we can still be friends Jak :) It's for things like this that this thread is so important; sharing viewpoints to make those who don't experience it understand how it is :) I want to say thank you to you for being open-minded!

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

To be for I'm sure there would have been just as much issue had the image shown two males- that's lack of equal representation.

 

At the end of the day all companies will project towards what they feel is their main demographic. Asus clearly believe, rightly or wrongly, that their main consumer group is male. They therefore pander to that group. Sales and money drives everything. I'm not saying I don't get your concerns, just looking at the bigger picture.

 

As for the two comic strips posted they both seemed to be defending the female comic fan to me.

 

Taltos, keep on topic and contribute to the thread or don't. But posts like that are really completely unnecessary and contribute nothing to the discussion at hand which is about feminism and perceived sexism, not the merits of Asus as a company or their products or the lack of care you have for anyone who chooses to be offended by perceived sexism. If you don't have anything to actually contribute don't bother.

[reyler]

 

At the end of the day all companies will project towards what they feel is their main demographic. Asus clearly believe, rightly or wrongly, that their main consumer group is male. They therefore pander to that group. Sales and money drives everything. I'm not saying I don't get your concerns, just looking at the bigger picture.

 

It's less that they're marketing towards one demographic and more that they way they're doing it suggests they don't want business from the other demographic, especially since it taps into the wider argument about the validity of women as gamers, which has been going on for years and has recently boiled over. I think it was Dr. Pepper that did something similar in their advertising not so very long ago that seemed to actively state that only men should be drinking their product. Which was fine with me, because there's a reason I refer to that beverage by its other name.

 

And yes, the two comics are defending the female fan by pointing out the enormous double standards involved in what constitutes a "real" fan.

 

The funny thing is, most people can't answer when you question them on their opinions. Why is it un-manly to wear make-up? Why is it unmanly to like pink? Why is it unmanly to not like action movies? It all ties into just one thing. "That's the way it is". Well, the way it is has changed before, and can again, if enough people decide to let go of the stupid notions that this or that is "off-limits" because of gender.

 

Funnier because makeup and the color pink were, not so very long ago, as much the province of men as they were women. I wonder if, back during the sixties when all the guys started growing their hair out and got shade from their elders for it, anyone bothered to point out that every last one of the Founding Fathers wore their hair long.

[michellem]

As for the two comic strips posted they both seemed to be defending the female comic fan to me.

 

 

The comic strips are defending the female, yes. But they are showing the problem, and that was the point of posting them.

 

 

 

 

The funny thing is, most people can't answer when you question them on their opinions. Why is it un-manly to wear make-up? Why is it unmanly to like pink? Why is it unmanly to not like action movies? It all ties into just one thing. "That's the way it is". Well, the way it is has changed before, and can again, if enough people decide to let go of the stupid notions that this or that is "off-limits" because of gender.

 

Funnier because makeup and the color pink were, not so very long ago, as much the province of men as they were women. I wonder if, back during the sixties when all the guys started growing their hair out and got shade from their elders for it, anyone bothered to point out that every last one of the Founding Fathers wore their hair long.

 

 

Look no further back than the Marie Antoinette era; men wore wigs, makeup and high heels. The seventies, high heels for the guys. Long hair, sixties and seventies (sidenote: A guy at my husbands work was telling one of his collegues his long hair was "gay". The collegue looked at him long and hard and said: "Have you ever seen a gay man with long hair?". The he went silent :P Of course there are gay guys with long hair, but most guys I know with long hair are straight, rockers and bikers and the like.)

[MasterAblar]

Louis the 14th was very much considered the epitome of masculinity in his time. People seeing his portrait nowadays would be rather confused I think.

[BFG]

 

This was just depressing!

 

Episode 1 of the Apprentice and one of the girls strategy was to wear short skirts and makeup as men were more likely to buy from attractive females then men.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

everyone is more likely to buy from

more attractive men and women than from unattractive people.

 

teachers have been found to strongly favor attractive children over unattractive ones.

 

that's beyond sexism. it's a deeply rooted human behavior that will be very difficult to extinct.

[BFG]

Agreed, I also suspect somewhat unsympathetic editing in the show. Nonetheless it wasn't attractive people, it was attractive females over men generally and seemed implied that that was the only way women could sell anything was by wearing short skirts /shrug

 

Also should say, that was her strategy for her entire team.