"How Feminism Hurts Men"

[Ryrin]

Loranflame:

 

"This is very true. I mostly talked about guys above... but women have an awful lot to deal with from society and media as well. Certain behaviours and actions tend to be frowned upon, both in real life and in media. And women have the added layer of being far more social, and having far greater expectations to conform to what society approves of.

 

It takes a truly courageous woman, to go against the grain and show obvious interest even today. It will be a while yet before women can be making approaches, but that will eventually be a great indicator of progress towards equality. And like me, there are plenty of men who understand, and will not judge a woman for reciprocating interest. Unfortunately... we are still in the minority. Your fellow women can be among the harshest judges btw... so not only guys who are guilty. But yeah... I do see Feminism claiming ground in this area... and that's a great thing."

 

 

Let's start out with "I'm likely old enough to be your mother." My husband (exclusive boyfriend at the time) was very shy. One evening I told him three things:

 

1. I made a reservation at a Bed and Breakfast for the weekend.

2. I was on the pill.

3. Did he want to go?

 

We've been married 27 years.

 

I don't think I'm "courageous." However, if we were co-workers, I could see potential problems but we weren't.

[Taborline]

Indeed, I would completely disagree with this: "It takes a truly courageous woman, to go against the grain and show obvious interest even today."

 

No, it doesn't. At least not in North American culture. Women do it all the time, it wouldn't even cross my mind that there might be something amiss about coming on to a man I was interested in. Perhaps in more religious communities/cultures, but I've not come across many women who would have issues making a first (and hands-on) move. 

[Ryrin]

Bic apologizes for South African Ad on "Women's Day."

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/12/africa/feat-bic-sexist-pens/

 

 

Empowering???  Shifting responsibility?

[Elgee]

There was such a huge outcry here, they had to remove the ad and apologise.

 

Retards.

[Ithillian Turambar]

Stabilo's response was brilliant

 

'Sorry to highlight your mistake #Bic, but we thought this was more appropriate.'

 

 

http://m.thedrum.com/news/2015/08/12/stabilo-highlights-where-bic-went-wrong-its-think-man-tweet

[Barid Bel Medar]

That's interesting. I have found something similar come up while reading fantasy, and one of the things I enjoy about WoT so much. 

 

I love that the WoT has girly characters. They like dresses etc... 

 

I have found in fantasy you have the 'strong independent woman' that knows how to fight, doesn't care about appearance etc... that is supposed to be showing female strength, but all it does is put manly traits into a female character, and I find it does what that advertisement does by implying "be like a man = strong." 

 

So while some people might think the wondergirls loving dresses and do "silly" girly things (mooning over Galad) and aren't always in serious dooms-day mode is annoying, I think it is actually refreshing and more honest than what is basically a man put into a female character. 

 

Berelain for one, I think gets a lot of crap unnecessarily. She is a strong woman like no man could be (except maybe Galad, he might be able to do that to women). Yes, she uses her 'charms' but why is that any different to Mat? She is being strong as a woman, in 'womanly' areas. No need to pretend to be a man. 

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

there are plenty of women who don't care about clothes or makeup and plenty of men that do. that's one of the things that annoyed me about WoT. even the supposedly unfrilly min ends up obsessing over her clothes and te way she holds her wrists and displays her rear.

 

that's not an x linked charecteristic. it's a cultural thing and somewhat of a vanity thing but even in t shirts and sweat pants, I'm still a woman.

 

and you could wear all the pretty things you want and still be a

man.

 

the bic ad reminded me

of the 70s commercial about I can bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, and never ever let you forget you're a man cause I'm a woman..,

 

what piffle.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Missed the entire point of what I was saying...

 

Of course what you say is right. 

 

The issue is authors in fantasy in particular take away all the 'feminine' traits out of a female character to make them 'strong' and feminine traits are often seen as weaknesses or liabilities to the character and those around them. 

 

So while that character might seem 'strong', it is just a 'masculine' idea of strength and 'feminine' as weakness. 

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

I don't think I did.

 

what I got was a distinction between what you find naturally "girly"

and what you find naturally "manly"

not coinciding with most fantasy you read. that what are supposed to be strong female characters are often simply

male characters given female identities.

 

if that's not part of what you were saying I misunderstood.

 

what I am saying is that there is not

necessarily a gender specific state of girliness or

manliness, and that how invested someone is in clothing and other stereotypically feminine interests or behavior has

more to do with culture than with gender.

 

not crazy about girly vs manly either but I'm

not communicating well

so I'll leave it there.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Missed the entire point of what I was saying...

 

Of course what you say is right.

 

The issue is authors in fantasy in particular take away all the 'feminine' traits out of a female character to make them 'strong' and feminine traits are often seen as weaknesses or liabilities to the character and those around them.

 

So while that character might seem 'strong', it is just a 'masculine' idea of strength and 'feminine' as weakness.

I can see what you're saying. maybe it's true, I don't read a lot of fantasy these days.

 

personally I have never been typically "girly"

in any way, and my schooling taught me that much

of what is considered typically "girly"

is vanity and not something I have to seek

out, so it's a little

wearing when every woman in WoT outside the brown Ajah spends

more on their wardrobes than most villages spend on food and fuel.

 

I think RJ went overboard there

and didn't seem

to understand that there are no universal feminine behaviors or universal

masculine ones.

 

lord autocorrect hates me

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

.... the piffle was in re the bacon frying commercial

btw

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, I get what you are saying as well. 

 

I never said RJ was perfect at it. He has a whole lot of issues with women in general. The appearance thing was just not really relevant to the point, neither is the concept of 'no universal image of gender'. 

 

It is Western literature speaking about Western ideals in general (sometimes trying to adapt other cultures). 

 

Of course if you want to get scientific and sociological, there are not parameters for masculine and feminine, but there are in our society. 

 

What has happened in books I find - and feel free to disagree - is that authors attempt to make female characters 'strong' by applying what our culture considers 'manly'. (Physically strong, not overly emotional, always in control, don't care about aesthetics, no time for gossip or other such 'foolishness') It is an archetypical 'man'. 

 

While similarly western 'feminine' traits, what we associate with femininity, is considered weakness or morally wrong. (Berelain for example.) 

[WildTaltos]

i find the ad sexist in that it both promotes a sex (in this case, female) to "act like lady," in other words, subscribe to a stereotypical gender role and it again emphasises damaging concepts of gender by saying "think like a man," ie think like an aggressive social construct, with the implication that such a form of thought is preferable and superior.

 

as far as wot women goes, after the first couple books i really found it a joke that the series was praised for having strong women. there were a few of those but all in all they mostly seemed like slightly different expressions of an ultimately sexist perception of women who, to make them seem like they were "strong," sniff at and are rude to men just because. i am not fond of trying to pass images of insecurity and pettiness as positive, whether want to call it feminine or girly or anything else.

[Guest]

 

Empowering??? Shifting responsibility?

This advertisement would have a happy place in the corner of my dressing mirror. Am I being sexist for using this language or is it MtF encouragement?

 

I will add that the older and more libertarian I get, the less comfortable I am with enforcing social and gender roles with others. Telling someone else to "be a lady" or flatly asserting that all men think alike because they are essentially the same is disingenuous and incostistent. So, I guess the question I am asking is this.

 

Am I internalizing a sexist conceptby using this macro as a morning motivator?

[WildTaltos]

how would it be male to female encouragement? i would answer yes to the last question

[Guest]

Nevermind.

[Guest]

It's a silly question, apologies.

[Ryrin]

Nevertheless, it was a question. My answer would be "yes."

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

I'd say that what you internalize to make your inner world make sense is up to you, and if it helps you then it's good.

 

I suspect you'll go through changes along the way, but as long as you're using this to organize your own mind and not to tell anyone else what to think it's fine.

[Ryrin]

I was just thinking about Moiraine and Siuan in particular. I think it's Moiraine's royal background that leads her to be more concerned about appearances. Siuan grew up poor, working on her father's fishing boat. Even her language is "salty." So, one might say that Moiraine is more of what we think of as "feminine" and Siuan as having more "masculine" traits.

 

RJ's fascination with S&M is quite interesting.

[Ryrin]

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2015/10/what_s_wrong_with_a_purity_certificate_everything.html

 

What’s Wrong With a Purity Certificate? Everything.

 

Virginity pledges often come with a strong whiff of patriarchal undertones.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/10/22/bride-purity-certificate-maryland-wedding-prove-virginity/74379486/

 

A Maryland bride presented her father with a "Certificate of Purity" at her wedding to prove she kept a promise she made to him as a 13-year-old.

 

Brelyn, who married Timothy Bowman earlier this month, posted a photo a week ago of her dancing with her father at the wedding. In the caption she explained why she chose to give her father the certificate.

 

"Dancing with my first love. I was able to present a certificate of purity to him signed by my doctor that my hymen was still intact," she said in the post. "

                                                                                                              UGH

[WildTaltos]

that is pretty gross. Like the first article said, there is nothing wrong with wanting to save your virginity until you meet someone special or get married or other kinds of abstinence - whats wrong is the old and fundamentally patriarchal notion that "purity" and a higher spiritual status for women is dependent upon whether or not she has had sex before marriage (but more particular that she hasn't damaged her hymen in any way) while there is not any question or demands from the man to prove his own virginity. In essence, it is built on the logic that women are sex objects and their only redeeming values, spiritual or otherwise, lie in reproduction and sensuality, while the man is a human being whose worth is dependent upon his actions and import in the world. Depending on the design of the vulva based on genetics, there are other ways to break/damage the hymen other than sex as the article mentions (bike or horse riding, other kinds of sports), and some women are raped, so it again comes back to women being viewed as nothing but sexual outlets for men because based on the notion that intact hymen=virginity and purity, women are expected to not do anything very physically vigorous and remain pretty frail and helpless just to prove themselves to men while those women who were raped are "impure" based on something that was not their fault at all.

[Ryrin]

Exactly.  I also see that men want to harness the sexual expression of women.  They enact laws for them to cover their bodies, have laws that sentence women to rape for the actions of their male family members, and place a high price on a woman's lack of sexual experience.

 

I also find it repulsive that she hands this to her father prior to her marriage.  Her father should not be involved in her sexual choices.  

[Ryrin]

http://www.ispot.tv/ad/AO50/selsun-blue-full-and-thick-construction

 

What do you think about this commercial?  I don't think that turnabout is always fair play.  It's more likely it shouldn't happen to either men or women.

[Tyzack]

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2015/10/what_s_wrong_with_a_purity_certificate_everything.html

 

What’s Wrong With a Purity Certificate? Everything.

 

Virginity pledges often come with a strong whiff of patriarchal undertones.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/10/22/bride-purity-certificate-maryland-wedding-prove-virginity/74379486/

 

A Maryland bride presented her father with a "Certificate of Purity" at her wedding to prove she kept a promise she made to him as a 13-year-old.

 

Brelyn, who married Timothy Bowman earlier this month, posted a photo a week ago of her dancing with her father at the wedding. In the caption she explained why she chose to give her father the certificate.

 

"Dancing with my first love. I was able to present a certificate of purity to him signed by my doctor that my hymen was still intact," she said in the post. "

                                                                                                              UGH

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwiH6LHAie7KAhUY1mMKHQA3D6MQtwIIHDAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DPM79UBTwfsg&usg=AFQjCNEIG_AWZ1uPFI_Ac45JsoSYE4mfNw&sig2=_0tal9M_OVfiCgKnQ1WRsA&bvm=bv.113943164,d.cGc