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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Barid Bel Medar

Ask Simple questions, get simple answers (aMoL version covering the entire series)

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This may come across as a strange question and I'm probably being stupid... but did the dark one manipulate events so he would be sealed?

Interview: Nov 11th, 1997

Barnes and Noble Chat (Verbatim)

Brandon from Mission Viejo

Mr. Jordan, It's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

Robert Jordan

Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course, the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window.

I think it's also likely shi'atan is responsible for at least in part for ta'veren.

The wheel is responsible for ta'veren.

 

 

Interview: Jul, 2002

COT: 'Glimmers' Ebook Q&A (Verbatim)

Question

Does ta’veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta’veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.

Robert Jordan

You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

 

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This may come across as a strange question and I'm probably being stupid... but did the dark one manipulate events so he would be sealed?

Interview: Nov 11th, 1997

Barnes and Noble Chat (Verbatim)

Brandon from Mission Viejo

Mr. Jordan, It's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

Robert Jordan

Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course, the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window.

 

But in the eye of the world Rand hears a voice which at first I assumed was the creator, which now I believe IS Shi'atan that told Rand "I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL." Plus there is Rand's reaction when he found out the true nature of the dark one. It was almost amusement when he thought about Shi'atan being the father of lies. He was not the enemy and NEVER was. More generally, though I don't believe a being as powerful as Shi'atan could be so incompetent to lose this battle age after age unless he never truly wanted to win. It makes sense if the game has been rigged from the start.

 

I think it's also likely shi'atan is responsible for at least in part for ta'veren.

The wheel is responsible for ta'veren.

 

 

Interview: Jul, 2002

COT: 'Glimmers' Ebook Q&A (Verbatim)

Question

Does ta’veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta’veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.

Robert Jordan

You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

 

So Shi'atan only provides the "material" to help create the pattern?

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@jwillis

 

They were asking if Asmodean wasn't killed with balefire why the DO didn't bring him back. Jordan said it had to do with the manner and place of ha death.

For those theorizing that she pulled him into TAR to off him, we had Lanfear confirm that for people who are in TAR in the flesh, if they die their souls aren't lost which further adds to the puzzle.  RJ stated it was both HOW and WHERE he died that both prevented the DO from catching his soul and re-purposing it into a new body.  Otherwise the DO would have probably given him a broken body as punishment for trying to flee his oaths or something equally cruel.

 

I have come to the conclusion long ago that RJ was so amused that Asmo's character was so well liked and his death swept through fandom creating an unexpected stir that he played off the vague and poetical presentation of a generic death that he got caught up in it himself.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he lied, the man was a genius.  The How and Where simply boils down to RJ willed it to be, and it was in his mind that this happened.  He made it clear that Asmo was gone and would not appear.  

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Are we even sure the Trollocs and other Shadowspawn can survive all that long without the lingering touch of the Dark One?  After all, the True Power was instrumental in their creation, and that's now shut out.  I could see a case for Trollocs, and other Shadowspawn that can independently breed, surviving, but what about Fades?  They were always described as "throwbacks" to the human stock used in creating the Trollocs, and without the presence of the True Power, they may not be viable offspring, they are, after all, incapable of breeding on their own.

 

In any event, Shadowspawn are only an existential threat to humanity if there's some kind of command structure behind them.  Fades are good at leading Trollocs on the battlefield, but even they usually require the presence of a Dreadlord or Forsaken to unify and coordinate their efforts.  Trollocs alone are easy to beat.  In the 4th Age, they lack that command structure, and remaining Light Side forces will probably be dedicated for a while to rooting them out and eliminating them, but that's gonna be a much easier task without generals or Dreadlords to direct the Shadowspawn.

Much like an entire Fist of Trollocs would die when the Fade linked to them was killed, their supreme boss had his rear-end handed to him by Rand.  They are all dead now, his hold on Shayol Ghul was broken allowing the blight to vanish and healthy things grow from the way I see it.

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@jwillis

 

They were asking if Asmodean wasn't killed with balefire why the DO didn't bring him back. Jordan said it had to do with the manner and place of ha death.

For those theorizing that she pulled him into TAR to off him, we had Lanfear confirm that for people who are in TAR in the flesh, if they die their souls aren't lost which further adds to the puzzle.  RJ stated it was both HOW and WHERE he died that both prevented the DO from catching his soul and re-purposing it into a new body.  Otherwise the DO would have probably given him a broken body as punishment for trying to flee his oaths or something equally cruel.

 

I have come to the conclusion long ago that RJ was so amused that Asmo's character was so well liked and his death swept through fandom creating an unexpected stir that he played off the vague and poetical presentation of a generic death that he got caught up in it himself.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he lied, the man was a genius.  The How and Where simply boils down to RJ willed it to be, and it was in his mind that this happened.  He made it clear that Asmo was gone and would not appear.  

 

 

I've always favoured two theories.

 

First one and the more complicated is that she didn't pull him to TAR, she pulled him to Mirror world to kill him. A Mirror world like the one she was going to run to in ToM, one where the DO's touch is weak and it would be hard to find her.

 

The second and more simple one is that the DO couldn't grab Asmo's soul because the Pattern around him was still in a state of flux, it was still mending after Rand's Balefire. Remember also, Asmo was already dead along with Mat when they first arrived, then he was alive again. The DO prolly did grab Asmo's soul after the first death, only to have to taken away when Rand Balefired Rahvin. Finding it again in time may not have been possible.

Edited by Finnssss

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I thought the location part might simply have had to do with it being fairly far south of Shayol Ghul. The DO's power is strongest in the Blight and especially in the Blasted Lands, so perhaps the greater the distance from there, the more his power wanes. Had it happened nearer to SG perhaps he could have brought him back. Ishamael was killed in Tear of course, but balefire was not involved then.

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Ishy died in TaR, and this probably should be discussed in another thread: there's just too many possible ways to read many different pieces of the books and info dribbled out over the years to come to some kind of consensus. I can fanwank where + how, but it involves speculation and at least two instances of characters that should know something being wrong (however plausible that is).

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has there been much discussion on how and why Tel'aran'rhiod is breaking apart and what it means for the future and the Wolves and Heroes?

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has there been much discussion on how and why Tel'aran'rhiod is breaking apart and what it means for the future and the Wolves and Heroes?

 

 

It was breaking apart because it was reflected more vividly what the DO was doing to the land in the real world.

Once Rand re-sealed the DO's prison, his influence of the land ended and TAR was restored as we were clearly shown in the Epilogue when Perrin went running and jumping all over the place looking for Faile.

Edited by Finnssss

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Even if the DO could grab Asmo soul to stuff in another body, why would he?  Someone who ha betrayed you is hardly a soul you are going to stuff back in a body. Lanfear and Grendal might of messed up big time but didn't openly go to the other side.  We don't know how much of Lanfear's plan for Asmo and Rand the DO knew.  Dem stated he was surprised by some of the things the DO knew and didn't know.  I see it more he would of just tormented the soul for a really long time if he could get the soul.

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skimmed through various parts of this book.

 

 

Do not recall any of these weddings taking place::

-Rand and his 3 lovers

-Egwene and Gawyn

-Berelain and Galad

Also, do not recall Aviendha getting pregnant.

 

Did those events happen?  If so, on screen or off screen?  If on screen, which chapter for each?

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@mb,

rand is still a bachelor,

to the best of my knowledge,galad and berelain are not married,

aviendha got pregnant during the night before the field of merrilor meeting

it was confirmed by brandon sanderson,

egwene did agree to marry gawyn,but both of them died in the last battle.

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On Egwene/Gawyn... yeah, they get married offscreen. IIRC, it's Silviana who marries them.

 

when I read through AMOL the first time (I read the book), I thought there was a scene in which Egwene meets up with her parents, pre-marriage. When I read it a second time (via audiobook), I didn't come across any such scene. Is it there, or did I just make it up out of Egwene's musings about her letters to her parents?

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On Egwene/Gawyn... yeah, they get married offscreen. IIRC, it's Silviana who marries them.

 

when I read through AMOL the first time (I read the book), I thought there was a scene in which Egwene meets up with her parents, pre-marriage. When I read it a second time (via audiobook), I didn't come across any such scene. Is it there, or did I just make it up out of Egwene's musings about her letters to her parents?

 

Pretty sure you made it up. Which is a shame because it would have been nice to see Egwene meet up with her parents and go back to her beginnings, if only for a short while.

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Is Min also pregnant?

If so, when did she become pregnant? and what is the number of babies? and is the father Rand?

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i'm on my first reread and i'm on book 4.  after Perrin leaves for the two rivers, are the three ta'veren ever on screen together again?  i know rand and mat are plenty, and rand and perrin, but i can't think of a time its the 3 together again.

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Done some more skimming of Memory of Light since that first post (#611).

 

 

Moridin dead in Rand's body; not sure of the cause of death.

Cyndane killed by Perrin.

Demandred killed by Lan.

Moghedien becoming a damane; after Tarmon Gaidon.

 

What is the status of Graendal/Hessalam?  Her last on screen moment she bows to Aviendha; and her fate is not mentioned afterward.

And Mesaana?  Last on screen moment and last mention of her are both in Towers of Midnight.

 

What was the cause of Moridin's death?  And did the cause occur while Rand still had the body or after the body swap?

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graendal is under compulsion

I guess it is the Compulsion she started to weave before the explosion.

The mentioned POV tells that the explosion did something to the Compulsion weave.  How many things did the explosion do to the Compulsion?  for sure it changed Graendal's/Hessalam's behavior.

Edited by mb

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graendal is under compulsion

I guess it is the Compulsion she started to weave before the explosion.

The mentioned POV tells that the explosion did something to the Compulsion weave.  How many things did the explosion do to the Compulsion?  for sure it changed Graendal's/Hessalam's behavior.

 

 

 

It only needed to do one thing to have the result it had: reflect it back onto Graendal. As we know from the rest of the series, there are varying degrees of Compulsion. Some are subtle, some not. Graendal's was a sledgehammer, and it hit her in the face instead of Aviendha. That's what happens to people who get sledgehammer-compelled.

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Throught the series, Rand's discomfort over being responsible for / causing the death of women seemed to progress and be tied to some of his mental instability, like the list he started to say, etc. When he is almost compelled to kill Min, and taps into TP, he is at his 'darkest'. And of course since the end of TFoH we have as readers known the rescue of Moiraine was coming. It seemed like saving her would play in to Rand becoming better in terms of his overall outlook,etc. With Rand having his ephiphany at the end of TGS, and the timeline issues in ToM, I was wondering if Brandon Sanderson has been asked if it was explicitly in RJ's notes that Moiraine being saved would NOT factor in to Rand's change to "Zen-like Rand"? 

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Was RJ ever told that while the red hand was indeed a symbol of a celtic tribe. It has for some time been used by terrorists as a symbol of violence? 

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How similar is each turning of the wheel? Are they identical? I seem to recall RJ mentioning some things to suggest otherwise. Such as saying that Fain is an entirely new entity (but this could mean that it didn't exist in any preceding age before the last third age). It has also been implied that it is POSSIBLE for the DO to win.

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